the emergence of a hereditary upper class

[red team]

It's inevitable, but as the Capitalist system degenerates, nothing surprises me anymore.

Bow to the kings and barons of Capital if you don't want to end up homeless, sick and/or starving. Hereditary ruling class here we come. Can anybody here say "Feudalism"?

the emergence of a hereditary upper class (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jun2006/tax-j09.shtml)


Oh, and since I'm posting in the Opposing Ideology subforum, it would also be appropriate for me to say: "All Hail Tungsten", "Long Live Overlord" and "God Save ummProfessional" (replace their tags with their family names if this tax law passes). We wouldn't want to get on Lord Tungsten's bad side would we...

[Tungsten]

red team

Tax cut = Handout = Feudalism? That's a good one.


Lord Tungsten's
Good. You've learned your place.

[theraven]

this angers me greatly
what about king raven the brave?

[JimmyC]

I'd comment here but I don't understand what that red team guy's dancing about? Does he want to be a better cappitalist?

[overlord]

Redteam


Oh, and since I'm posting in the Opposing Ideology subforum, it would also be appropriate for me to say: "All Hail Tungsten", "Long Live Overlord" and "God Save ummProfessional" (replace their tags with their family names if this tax law passes). We wouldn't want to get on Lord Tungsten's bad side would we...

yeah... I like this... YEAH! now you're talking! Long live the new KINGS! MUAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!


what about king raven the brave?

Why not? Capitalism might allow this. Anyone can become a king if they work hard enough. The only one holding them back is themselves.

[apathy maybe]

Unrestricted inheritance obviously leads to hereditary rulers. We already see it, sure occasionally some of the hereditary rules drop down the social scale and some other person rises, but most of the time it is static.

[overlord]

This is true, but is someone wants it, really really really bad, its probably going to happen.

[BobKKKindle$]

Look at the hard facts - Those in the lowest income segment have less than a 2% chance of reaching the top. That does not sound like a system of vast oppurtunity. You capitalists hold on to this image of the 'american dream' - that anyone can make it if they work hard enough. In fact, the reverse is true - some people manage to remain rich by doing absolutely work at all through the hereditary ownership of Capital. This legislation would merely enhance the restriciton of the 'trickle down' effect, as bourgeois economists refer to it.

Update: After some brief searching, it seems even the New York times, part of the Capitalist media, admits this is the case! And Turns out society is becoming more stratified, not less!

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/natio...C/index_03.html (http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/20050515_CLASS_GRAPHIC/index_03.html)


The only one holding them back is themselves

So someone who works a 14 hour shift on a noisy assembly line is inherently lazy? They are not trying hard enough?

[apathy maybe]

WTF?

OK I think you mean this,
"What you (being apathy maybe) said is true. If someone wants to become really really rich it will happen."

OoooKkkk then...
And why should we let them exactly? It would be different if it had no affect on the rest of us, but it does affect us. Why should we let someone rule over us?

[overlord]

Bobkisseshiskittensass:


So someone who works a 14 hour shift on a noisy assembly line is inherently lazy? They are not trying hard enough?

Well, if they save up, invest wisely, why can they not become rich? What's stopping them?


Look at the hard facts - Those in the lowest income segment have less than a 2% chance of reaching the top. That does not sound like a system of vast oppurtunity. You capitalists hold on to this image of the 'american dream' - that anyone can make it if they work hard enough. In fact, the reverse is true - some people manage to remain rich by doing absolutely work at all through the hereditary ownership of Capital. This legislation would merely enhance the restriciton of the 'trickle down' effect, as bourgeois economists refer to it.


Your facts are sound. It is your interpretation which I disagree with. Why should everyone be rich? Ever read Aristophanes. I've read everything he ever wrote. Read 'Wealth' if you havn't done so. I could go further but won't spoil it.


Update: After some brief searching, it seems even the New York times, part of the Capitalist media, admits this is the case! And Turns out society is becoming more stratified, not less!

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/natio...C/index_03.html


HAHHAHA! You didn't know this? US Income tax=30% Dividend tax=15%. I actually disagree with this. Everyone's should be like 2%. Capital owners still pay more, but a smaller percentage, which may lead to revolution in like 50-100 years if unchecked.

Of course, the more money you have the easier it is to take more. Famous quote: "To increase $100 to $104 requires work. To increase a hundred mil to $104 is inevitable."

APATHY MAYBE:


WTF?

OK I think you mean this,
"What you (being apathy maybe) said is true. If someone wants to become really really rich it will happen."

OoooKkkk then...
And why should we let them exactly? It would be different if it had no affect on the rest of us, but it does affect us. Why should we let someone rule over us?

Did the people of Europe 'let' lords and ladies rule over them?

[BobKKKindle$]

Well, if they save up, invest wisely, why can they not become rich? What's stopping them

This has already been discussed several times before, and if you remember in the thread 'Destiny over one's own life' I illustrated the fact that share ownership follows the same trends as General MoP ownership - concentration in the hands of a minority. Ordinary Workers do not have the time, investement capital, or expertise to invest. Furthermore, if workers followed your scheme, and rapidly invested in Stocks and Shares, this could potentially result in the occurance of a bubble, resulting in another crisis in what is already a vastly unstable economic system.


Why should everyone be rich?

Not everyone should be rich. Capitalists and people who are solely Stock Investors, for example derive the benefits of the commodities that are produced by workers, despite the fact that they have in no way contributed to the production process except through ownership of the MoP - A 'contribution' that is in no way necessary.


HAHHAHA! You didn't know this? US Income tax=30% Dividend tax=15%.


Of course, the more money you have the easier it is to take more

The Us has a flat tax rate, right? In that case, your argument makes no sense. If the tax rate if flat, it does not not affect income distribution (I think) Capitalist society is grossly stratified and unequal, you have failed to rebutt that. In fact, you basically agree that Capitalism leads to vast differences in wealth based upon the hereditary ownership of Capital.

[overlord]

This has already been discussed several times before, and if you remember in the thread 'Destiny over one's own life' I illustrated the fact that share ownership follows the same trends as General MoP ownership - concentration in the hands of a minority. Ordinary Workers do not have the time, investement capital, or expertise to invest. Furthermore, if workers followed your scheme, and rapidly invested in Stocks and Shares, this could potentially result in the occurance of a bubble, resulting in another crisis in what is already a vastly unstable economic system.


Yes, there would indeed be a bubble since the stock market is at present an indirect auction system.


Not everyone should be rich. Capitalists and people who are solely Stock Investors, for example derive the benefits of the commodities that are produced by workers, despite the fact that they have in no way contributed to the production process except through ownership of the MoP - A 'contribution' that is in no way necessary.


You think everyone who is rich inherits? HAHHAHAHHAAHHAHA! In that case where did the first rich come from? How do people get rich in their own lifetime? Are you saying it doesn't happen? Now, you think these capitalists expended no effort in getting money? You think running a business is not an ongoing job? You really have no idea.


The Us has a flat tax rate, right? In that case, your argument makes no sense. If the tax rate if flat, it does not not affect income distribution (I think) Capitalist society is grossly stratified and unequal, you have failed to rebutt that. In fact, you basically agree that Capitalism leads to vast differences in wealth based upon the hereditary ownership of Capital.

Why would I rebut what is true. Capitalism tends towards oligarchy and aristocracy. This is what I want and you and no-one else on this forum have the power to stop it.

[Tungsten]

bobkindles

Look at the hard facts - Those in the lowest income segment have less than a 2% chance of reaching the top.
You're making too big a deal out of this and I know why.

That does not sound like a system of vast oppurtunity.
You don't need to be at the top to have opportunities (opportunity to do what?) or anywhere near it.

Update: After some brief searching, it seems even the New York times, part of the Capitalist media,
The New York times is a socialist rag. You'd better get clued up on who your allies are, kid.

So someone who works a 14 hour shift on a noisy assembly line is inherently lazy? They are not trying hard enough?
How many times must this be repeated? No, hard work will not guarantee sucess. You need to work smart and have the drive for it. Hard work is not enough.

[BobKKKindle$]

No, hard work will not guarantee sucess

Capitalism tends towards oligarchy and aristocracy. This is what I want

The responses of the Capitalists to our criticisms comrades. I become more confident of my belief in Socialism every day!


You're making too big a deal out of this and I know why

I am a socialist! You expect me to understate the oppression of the masses?! Are you out of your mind? This is basicaly the divide between Capitlaism and Socialism: You are focused upon profits and benefit for the minority. We are about the emancipation of the proletariat and Human needs.


The New York times is a socialist rag. You'd better get clued up on who your allies are, kid

Want to discuss? Show some respect and dont adress me as 'kid'. I bet you were really insecure as a child huh?

[Tungsten]

bobkindles

The responses of the Capitalists to our criticisms comrades. I become more confident of my belief in Socialism every day!
Maybe he's just taking the piss out of you. It's hard to resist the temptation sometimes.

I am a socialist! You expect me to understate the oppression of the masses?!
Financial inequality doesn't equal oppression.

Are you out of your mind? This is basicaly the divide between Capitlaism and Socialism: You are focused upon profits and benefit for the minority. We are about the emancipation of the proletariat and Human needs.
I don't think that's what you've got in mind. The fact that you see money as power suggests that you're more motivated by envy of the rich and a desire to claim the unearned.

Show some respect and dont adress me as 'kid'.
You're a minor. Aka a kid (and a bloodthirsty one too.)

[Comrade-Z]

What I don't get is why even the ordinary, not-too-wealthy supporters of capitalism support this. If you have an estate of less than $4 million (or no estate at all), you simply getting screwed.

The only explanation I can think of is that you people actually harbor hopes (and expectations) that one day you will yourselves up at that rung of the social ladder.

Why you would think that is beyond me.... :blink:

[overlord]

QUOTE
Show some respect and dont adress me as 'kid'.


You're a minor. Aka a kid (and a bloodthirsty one too.)


You can say that again. If this guy gets into a position of power in some regime Vlad the Impaler's record might be well be in jeapordy. But he or RedBlood still hasn't said how he intends to torture me. I want details! I've only asked half a dozen times.


What I don't get is why even the ordinary, not-too-wealthy supporters of capitalism support this. If you have an estate of less than $4 million (or no estate at all), you simply getting screwed.


Four million not enough for you? Invested at 10% div that's $400,000 per annum. HAHAHAHHA chickenshit fortune anyway.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by Mickey Mouse
Did the people of Europe 'let' lords and ladies rule over them? They used to, now they don'. My point is that rich people affect others by their purchasing power.

Would you voluntarily let someone rule over you? Boss you about, tell you to jump and you do?

If you did not want someone to rule over you and they did, would you care?

Well I care.

[Vladislav]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 12:45 PM
bobkindles


Show some respect and dont adress me as 'kid'.
You're a minor. Aka a kid (and a bloodthirsty one too.)

Source?

[overlord]

Apathy Maybe

They used to, now they don'. My point is that rich people affect others by their purchasing power.

Would you voluntarily let someone rule over you? Boss you about, tell you to jump and you do?

If you did not want someone to rule over you and they did, would you care?

Well I care.



You might care but as a wageslave to the new kings what would you be able to do about it? Not much I would expect. Capitalism is returning to heal a sick world and nothing can stop it.

[Tungsten]

Vladislav

I Look forward to personally pinning your type of people against the wall and ramming a rifle bayonet through your skulls.

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...l=bayonet&st=25 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50357&hl=bayonet&st=25)

[Kuro Morfos]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 10 2006, 07:36 AM
Unrestricted inheritance obviously leads to hereditary rulers. We already see it, sure occasionally some of the hereditary rules drop down the social scale and some other person rises, but most of the time it is static.
Yes, if only Americans realized this. Oh well, its their fault, they'll see we are correct later.

[red team]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 04:29 PM
Vladislav

I Look forward to personally pinning your type of people against the wall and ramming a rifle bayonet through your skulls.

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...l=bayonet&st=25 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50357&hl=bayonet&st=25)
At least we don't strap people down to a chair and watch from a gallery like it's some kind of spectator sport while the person is cooked with electricity. Only "civilized" people like American Capitalists would advocate something like that.

[theraven]

Originally posted by red team+Jun 11 2006, 10:38 PM--> (red team @ Jun 11 2006, 10:38 PM)
[email protected] 11 2006, 04:29 PM
Vladislav

I Look forward to personally pinning your type of people against the wall and ramming a rifle bayonet through your skulls.

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...l=bayonet&st=25 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50357&hl=bayonet&st=25)
At least we don't strap people down to a chair and watch from a gallery like it's some kind of spectator sport while the person is cooked with electricity. Only "civilized" people like American Capitalists would advocate something like that. [/b]
i believe these days we mostly do lethal injectio...

[overlord]

Only "civilized" people like American Capitalists would advocate something like that.


Well, I am anti death penalty. Death penalty advocates should execute themselves.

[Janus]

In some places, hereditary also meant hereditary as in your genes.

For example, the ancient Chinese believed that if you had moles under your feet, that meant that you were "meant" to rule a certain amount of people depending on how many moles you had.

*Checks feet*
Damn, none. :lol:

[Vladislav]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 04:29 PM
Vladislav

I Look forward to personally pinning your type of people against the wall and ramming a rifle bayonet through your skulls.

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...l=bayonet&st=25 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50357&hl=bayonet&st=25)
What the fuck. I never said that.Get your shit straight.

[overlord]

Yeah, it was bobkittens who wrote that. He's a sicko and, what can I say, I want, nay, DEMAND an apology! :angry:

Just shows how sick some of you mental patients can be in forcing your ideologies upon non-smurfs. Bob's extremism is a testament to the sickness of your movement. It frankly disgusts me even that Redstar and several other admins have gone so far as to suggest similar measures meted out to entrepreneurs, the creators of society.

[Marx_was_right!]

You, of all people are unfit to demand an apology from the workers of the world. You are capitalistic scum, a blight upon a pogressive future. If anything it is you who will do the apologizing when we overthrow your disgusting class, scumbag.

[Tungsten]

red team

At least we don't strap people down to a chair and watch from a gallery like it's some kind of spectator sport while the person is cooked with electricity. Only "civilized" people like American Capitalists would advocate something like that.

Perhaps not:

Personally, I like the idea of forced death matches between Capitalists in exchange for food and shelter.

link (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50010&st=0&hl=death+match)

[red team]

Originally posted by Workers World
The country has observed the largest garment-worker uprising ever in Bangladesh from May 22-24. Although this sector earned $6.4 billion of the $9.4 billion total in foreign exchange last year, the laborers have no proper employment contract, no standard working hours (they work 13 instead of eight hours per day), no days off, no lunch hour, no break to drink water or go to the bathroom, no proper toilet facilities, no medical leave, etc.

The well-to-do upper classes’ indifference to the growing chaos and suffering of the poor is much more noticeable in Bangladesh than what prevailed during the turbulent days of 1966 or 1969 during the struggle for independence from West Pakistan that succeeded in 1971. The deaths of five students by police firing on Feb. 21, 1952, stirred up the entire province of East Pakistan, eventually leading to the creation of Bangladesh.

In the last 35 years, hundreds of deaths of unarmed civilians by law-enforcement agencies and paramilitary forces, more so during the last decade or so, have hardly stirred up the well-to-do classes. And today things have turned even nastier and more violent than they were 35 years ago.

The latest attacks on several garment factories in and around Dhaka city by garment factory workers, who are the most productive and most exploited, the least rewarded and appreciated sections of the poor, have made headlines. The whole country seems to be worried. The predatory, rapacious garment factory owners, who always brag as the biggest foreign exchange earners for Bangladesh, have come out on the street demanding “justice” and government intervention.

However, one wonders what type of “justice” the poor garment factory workers have been getting from either the garment factory owners (who remind one of the ruthless slave owners and the colonial plantation owners of the past) or the government. Is it fair to pay around 60 U.S. cents to a factory worker per day, when anyone earning less than a dollar per day is living below the poverty line? Are not human-rights activists in Bangladesh and abroad aware of the fact that Bangladeshi garment factory workers have a lower average calorie intake than slaves in 19th century U.S. plantations, and are not much better off with regard to freedom, leisure and human dignity?


link (http://www.workers.org/2006/world/bangladesh-0615/)

Is this your idea of freedom "Libertarian"? To work at a factory 13 hours per day, no lunch breaks, washroom breaks or medical leave?

Well, you see I consider people who advocate this sort of social/economic setup to be criminals against humanity. The thing is like you cappies I also believe in criminal background checks (so we do have something in common) in the new society. Your labour card will be imprinted with your criminal history including whether or not you were a former Capitalist who advocate this sort of stuff. Now who would want to hire a Capitalist criminal like you unless it was for a death match for you to provide some entertainment value in seeing you guys wipe each other out?

But, I'm not entirely inhumane. I would agree to provide you with food and shelter should your fight be entertaining. Afterall, the death match field is quite competitive and you should deserve a prize for rising to the occasion. Come on! Where's your competitive spirit? Fight for the prize to live cappie...

[ummProfessional]

YES!! im concidered ROYALTY!! :D thank you thank you very much

clap clap

red team:

Yes Master

now please red team i want you to be nice to our guests the Baron of Overlord, Prince Tungsten, and don't you forget about King Raven, he has comed a long way from his far far away kingdom to join us on this wonderful thread.

now please go fetch us some caviar, that would be all thank you

red team:

As you wish Master ummProfessional

[overlord]

Oh yes, and RedTeam:


Yes, my master?
Don't forget the beer you dog of a slave!


grumble... yes master
What was that?


n..n...n-nnothing master!
Didn't think so dog. Now get the beer. It has been a long journey from my fiefdom and I won't be inconvenienced by the likes of you. (spit).

[Vladislav]

This thread is D E A D.

Dead.

[overlord]

This thread is D E A D.

Dead.


Ok, hows this?


Is this your idea of freedom "Libertarian"? To work at a factory 13 hours per day, no lunch breaks, washroom breaks or medical leave?


Should be 15 hours a day like entrepreneurs work for. Give them 2 min for lunch. No washroom breaks is just ridiculous. Nowhere has that. :lol:



Well, you see I consider people who advocate this sort of social/economic setup to be criminals against humanity.

So sue me. :P



The thing is like you cappies I also believe in criminal background checks (so we do have something in common) in the new society. Your labour card will be imprinted with your criminal history including whether or not you were a former Capitalist who advocate this sort of stuff. Now who would want to hire a Capitalist criminal like you unless it was for a death match for you to provide some entertainment value in seeing you guys wipe each other out?

Capitalists are better workers. If they don't hire capitalists its because they don't want to be out of a job in a year. :D And what's this about deathmatches again? Are you a Roman? :huh:


But, I'm not entirely inhumane. I would agree to provide you with food and shelter should your fight be entertaining. Afterall, the death match field is quite competitive and you should deserve a prize for rising to the occasion. Come on! Where's your competitive spirit? Fight for the prize to live cappie...

Sounds like a business. Businesses are run by capitalists. Hence although the first victims might well be capitalists, subsequent ones will be the proletariat killing each other, just like under Robespiere. HAHAHHA! :lol:

[ummProfessional]

VLADISLAAAAV!!!!


Yes your magesty!

Vladislave my new $1,700,00 Bugatti Veyron needs some gas, go fill it up will ya

http://www.bergoiata.org/fe/voiture-sport-90/Bugatti%20Veyron%202.jpg


As you wish my master

ohh and don't you dare speed this baby to it's maximum 253 mph ok!! it's two V8 engines which combine to make a V16 will have spend half of the tank once you get back home...

Vladislav(Yes this is as close as i will get to a Bugatti, thank god i work for Master ummProfessional, I LOVE CAPITALISM)

[overlord]

You travel modestly Emperor ummProfessional.

Tie her up VLAD! We've arrived!

http://www.seal-superyachts-asia.com/sea-guides/images/lady_christine-1.jpg

[Vladislav]

shit car

shit boat

you losers can do better.

Now stop spamming.

[ummProfessional]

well what can i say Overlord im a modest guy LMAO!!

yes Vladislav shitty car huh !! hahahahahaha ahh yes all you really need is a normal car like a Toyota that will take you places :rolleyes: im sure no communist would want a car like that lmao :lol:


well eitherway guys im throwing a party today, so you are all welcomed to my HUMBLE MANOR :

http://www.fallrevolution.com/images/europe/orleans/mansion.jpg

please dress appropriately , you will need a secret code to get in, if you want it you have to accept capitalism and give a donation that will be donated to help kids in Africa ....

MERCI!!

[overlord]

Why have you falen into the poorhouse Emperor ummProfessional? lol.

Too many Bugatti, Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLAren, Airbus I would expect!

Anyway, when you're over it, come visit my Bavarian country cottage for shnapps.

In fact, all capitalists are invited to a big party i'm throwing. Communists can also come to do the dishes, but they have to come in the back so we don't see them. :lol:




http://homepage.sunrise.ch/mysunrise/pathit/bilder/neuschwanstein.jpg

[ummProfessional]

red team


surely you are beneffiting from the riches your grandfather the Great King Overlord the V left you, you BASTARD! thats not fair i should have a castle just like yours, it's a crime having a castle like that ok Overlord, it's a crime having so much you are an evil person for being born into royalty!! :lol:

SHUT UP!! before i throw you into the dungeons, DUNGEONS i said!! gosh! sorry your great Majesty Overlord the VII , hey dude can you delay your party, i invated my communist friends but since they are coming in their hybrid cars it's going to take them a while...lmao lets be fair at least for once... ;)

[overlord]

hey dude can you delay your party, i invated my communist friends but since they are coming in their hybrid cars it's going to take them a while...

Red Team's transport:
http://www.alibaba.com/photo/50061595/150cc_Mini_Three_Wheeled_Car.jpg

Overlord:Yep, I see what you mean. It is indeed going to be a long journey lmao.

But when you arive I have some nice quaters waiting for you. Hope you enjoy the stay in Castle Overlord:
http://www.acsalaska.net/~juggernt/images/dungeon.jpg

[redstar2000]

Even the most credible bourgeois ideologues are becoming concerned about the rise of the American plutocracy...

http://www.economist.com/world/displaystor...tory_id=7055911 (http://www.economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7055911)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif