Black Nationalism

[Johnny Anarcho]

I was confronted by the New Black Panther Party yesterday and was told about something called Black Nationalism, could anyone explain it to me.

[bayano]

it takes a wide variety of forms. some Black Nationalists are only partially nationalistic- specifically they want economic self-reliance in the Black community as a means to greater liberatory struggles. Some Black Nationalists claim to want to organize a mass exodus of African-Americans back to Africa, while others claim to want to carve out a nation within the United States for Blacks- some want a socialist one. Some simply want a cultural nationalism based on racial pride and what they claim are authentic African cultural elements, tho many such groups are virulently sexist.

My personal favorites could be included in the first definition, specifically Black radicals who want economic self-reliance and community struggles for control as a means for something much more. they view the Black nation as a minority nation within the US, not necessarily to form its own nation-state, but to participate in a struggle for socialism or overall liberation for working and poor people as a whole, and they view participation in that struggle as requiring class, gender, and racial-national liberation, with focus on the oppressed nation.

the New Black Panther Party pretty much sucks in my opinion. i have friends who used to be in it as well as those who are still in it, but heres the essential thing to understand. ever heard of ron karenga? most famous for creating kwanzaa, he led the Us Organization in the 1960s, a cultural nationalist group that hated the Black Panthers, and even killed some of their members in Los Angeles (before even the police did!). Well, the 'New Black Panther Party' openly follows Karenga, and dispenses with the marx-lenin-mao-fanon study and socialism of the real original Black Panthers. its narrow nationalism, a view that excludes any real work with other oppressed groups: Latinos, poor or working class whites, indigenous peoples, palestinians, lgbt.

[RedKnight]

If I'm not mistaken, the New Black Panthers are a part of the Nation of Islam cult.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

They're basically a national socialist party.

[Hampton]

New Black Panthers are a part of the Nation of Islam cult

Cult? And no they aren't.


They're basically a national socialist party.

Nazis? Umm, no.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 08:04 PM




Nazis? Umm, no.

Yes they are black nationalist groups like black panthers and black separtists advocate violence against random white people. they also advocate a separate nation where white people can't go. They hate jews and are just like neo-nazi groups except for black people instead of white

Link on black separtists (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp?T=24&m=4)

Although black separtists have a reason to be rascist because of hundreds of years of oppression white people bore down upon them, it should be known that they are a rascist organization that does advocate rascist actions.

[Everyday Anarchy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 05:23 PM
Although black separtists have a reason to be rascist because of hundreds of years of oppression white people bore down upon them, it should be known that they are a rascist organization that does advocate rascist actions.
Is there ever a [legitimate] reason to be racist?
-_-

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Well if my grandfather had whip lashes from a white 'master', I'd be pissed to.

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 12:31 AM
Well if my grandfather had whip lashes from a white 'master', I'd be pissed to.

Blacks owned slaves, whites owned slaves, arabs owned slaves (I'm told on good information that arabs were actually the worst owners), everyone owned slaves.

I'm white, I've never owned a slave and therefore I see no reason why any black person should have a problem with me just because of the fact that other people of my race owned slaves a couple of hundred years ago.

I'm also Polish, should I therefore hate all Germans because of WW2?

No offence mate, but it's a ridiculous argument. Everyone on earth needs to apologize to everyone else on earth for one thing or another. We should just call it quits and get on with life.

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 9 2006, 05:29 PM
I was confronted by the New Black Panther Party yesterday and was told about something called Black Nationalism, could anyone explain it to me.
The Black Panthers are black supremacists.

They are pretty much the same as white supremacists except for being a different race (obviously). I oppose them as vehemently as I do white supremacists.



This is pretty interesting:
http://www.ishkur.com/sports/olympicmoments8.php

ok, the article's a bit shite but it gives you an idea.

------------------


er...dude, why do you have a nation of islam link in your profile? :angry:

They're antisemitic, homophobic, sexist, anti-white, believe in black supremacy and the leader, Louis Farrakhan, said that Hitler was a "very great man"! They are opposed to mixed-race relationships and believe that races should live seperately to each other.

http://www-cgi.cnn.com/US/9510/megamarch/1...book/index.html (http://www-cgi.cnn.com/US/9510/megamarch/10-17/notebook/index.html)
http://www.adl.org/nation_of_islam/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1466283.stm

Also your tag under your name: "black nationalist" wtf?!

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 12:31 AM
Well if my grandfather had whip lashes from a white 'master', I'd be pissed to.

Blacks owned slaves, whites owned slaves, arabs owned slaves (I'm told on good information that arabs were actually the worst owners), everyone owned slaves.

I'm white, I've never owned a slave and therefore I see no reason why any black person should have a problem with me just because of the fact that other people of my race owned slaves a couple of hundred years ago.

I'm also Polish, should I therefore hate all Germans because of WW2?

No offence mate, but it's a ridiculous argument. Everyone on earth needs to apologize to everyone else on earth for one thing or another. We should just call it quits and get on with life.


Yeah I know. I was the first person born on American soil in my family so I had nothing to do with anything. But can you see my point? The logic behind why believe in separatism?

[Ander]

I see a lot of crap in this thread.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by Red Polak+Jun 10 2006, 12:40 AM--> (Red Polak @ Jun 10 2006, 12:40 AM)
Johnny [email protected] 9 2006, 05:29 PM
I was confronted by the New Black Panther Party yesterday and was told about something called Black Nationalism, could anyone explain it to me.
The Black Panthers are black supremacists.

They are pretty much the same as white supremacists except for being a different race (obviously). I oppose them as vehemently as I do white supremacists.



This is pretty interesting:
http://www.ishkur.com/sports/olympicmoments8.php

ok, the article's a bit shite but it gives you an idea.

------------------


er...dude, why do you have a nation of islam link in your profile? :angry:

They're antisemitic, homophobic, sexist, anti-white, believe in black supremacy and the leader, Louis Farrakhan, said that Hitler was a "very great man"! They are opposed to mixed-race relationships and believe that races should live seperately to each other.

http://www-cgi.cnn.com/US/9510/megamarch/1...book/index.html (http://www-cgi.cnn.com/US/9510/megamarch/10-17/notebook/index.html)
http://www.adl.org/nation_of_islam/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1466283.stm

Also your tag under your name: "black nationalist" wtf?! [/b]
The New Black Panthers are racist, the Black Panthers lead by Huey Newton and Bobby Seale wasnt racist but was working for the defense, betterment, and empowerment of black people. The Nation isnt anti-Semetic put is pointing out that weblack people need to start taking control of our economies instead of depending on the mainly white market which was before made up of Jewish landlords who exploited us. Farrakhan was calling Hitler a "great man" because of how quickly he rebuilt the German economy durring the Great Depression, also with the white man out fighting Hitler it gave many of us blacks job opportunities we didnt have before. I'm against Hitler and I'll make the point that great and good arent the same thing. I know it says Black Nationalist under my name, I'm a Black Nationalist who believes that for there to ever be true racial peace the black man and white man must seperate. The white man doesnt want us here and we're oppressed staying here, we want the reperations that are owed to us, we want our own nation.

[R_P_A_S]

a couple of people who i showed that black panther video to, told me that the panthers were very violent, and their ways were always like that. not only violent but racist to certain extend. i dont know. I dont think so?

were they?

[Hiero]

Everyone on earth needs to apologize to everyone else on earth for one thing or another. We should just call it quits and get on with life.

It's not that simple. In most cases thoose nations and ethnicities who were most oppressed during the colonial era, form the bottom ends of society today. They are often overrepresented in regards to bad health, crime, incarceration, poor education, etc. So it is not often as simple as people just get on with life, when structural inequalities still exist between nations and ethnicities.


The white man doesnt want us here and we're oppressed staying here, we want the reperations that are owed to us, we want our own nation.

Nations exist regardles of state or international recognition. In regards to the Black people in the USA, they already form a nation (only in the Black belt region). They nation just doesn't have self determination. This is similar all over the world.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 04:40 AM
a couple of people who i showed that black panther video to, told me that the panthers were very violent, and their ways were always like that. not only violent but racist to certain extend. i dont know. I dont think so?

were they?
They were involved with fights against the police on some occasions but this was in self-defence. You see, the FBI was working on bringing the Panther's down just like they were spying on Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and other black revolutionaries all the way back to Marcus Garvey. This is proof that America is a white-power structure that will keep the black man, as well as all other non-white people, down as long as America exists.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 04:53 AM

Everyone on earth needs to apologize to everyone else on earth for one thing or another. We should just call it quits and get on with life.

It's not that simple. In most cases thoose nations and ethnicities who were most oppressed during the colonial era, form the bottom ends of society today. They are often overrepresented in regards to bad health, crime, incarceration, poor education, etc. So it is not often as simple as people just get on with life, when structural inequalities still exist between nations and ethnicities.


The white man doesnt want us here and we're oppressed staying here, we want the reperations that are owed to us, we want our own nation.

Nations exist regardles of state or international recognition. In regards to the Black people in the USA, they already form a nation (only in the Black belt region). They nation just doesn't have self determination. This is similar all over the world.
What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man. We need to stop eating his pork, stop drinking his alcohol, stop using his drugs, gambling, and prostitution. These are the tools being used to pacify us and these are the tools being used to turn us against eachother. Go into any white neighborhood and you'll see there are no liquor stores or gun shops but go into any other neighborhood and its filled with them. What does that tell you? We need to start keeping our dollars in our own communities; the Jews, Irish, and other minorities did it when they came to America and still do. This is what will empower us and weaken the white man.

[guerillablack]

WOW.

I'm not a member of the NBPP but i have friends that are and none of them ever encouraged random acts of violence on white people. It's a shame white people love to compare NBPP to the KKK or neo nazis, like the NBPP are hanging whites from trees for whistling at a black woman, or draggin whites from the back of pickup trucks. I would like anyone to please post some news events where a NBPP member killed or violently hurt a white person or a jew. You won't find it, because it never happened to my knowledge. I have never heard of a NBPP member in New Jersey gettin locked up for a hate crime or violent assault on a random white person. So stop. Noone hates jews.

"The Truth is considered Hate only to those who Hate the Truth." -Dr. Kamau Kambon

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 08:18 AM
WOW.

I'm not a member of the NBPP but i have friends that are and none of them ever encouraged random acts of violence on white people. It's a shame white people love to compare NBPP to the KKK or neo nazis, like the NBPP are hanging whites from trees for whistling at a black woman, or draggin whites from the back of pickup trucks. I would like anyone to please post some news events where a NBPP member killed or violently hurt a white person or a jew. You won't find it, because it never happened to my knowledge. I have never heard of a NBPP member in New Jersey gettin locked up for a hate crime or violent assault on a random white person. So stop. Noone hates jews.

"The Truth is considered Hate only to those who Hate the Truth." -Dr. Kamau Kambon
I appologize brother, the white man's press has been used to blind the truth.

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by Johnny Anarcho+Jun 10 2006, 04:33 AM--> (Johnny Anarcho &#064; Jun 10 2006, 04:33 AM)The New Black Panthers are racist, the Black Panthers lead by Huey Newton and Bobby Seale wasnt racist but was working for the defense, betterment, and empowerment of black people. The Nation isnt anti-Semetic put is pointing out that weblack people need to start taking control of our economies instead of depending on the mainly white market which was before made up of Jewish landlords who exploited us. Farrakhan was calling Hitler a "great man" because of how quickly he rebuilt the German economy durring the Great Depression, also with the white man out fighting Hitler it gave many of us blacks job opportunities we didnt have before. I&#39;m against Hitler and I&#39;ll make the point that great and good arent the same thing. I know it says Black Nationalist under my name, I&#39;m a Black Nationalist who believes that <u>for there to ever be true racial peace the black man and white man must seperate.</u> The white man doesnt want us here and we&#39;re oppressed staying here, we want the reperations that are owed to us, we want our own nation.[/b]
riiiight, you want blacks and whites to live seperately.

so how does this distingish you from the "white nationalists" over on Stormfront? <_<



Johnny [email protected] 10 2006, 06:47 AM
What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man. We need to stop eating his pork, stop drinking his alcohol, stop using his drugs, gambling, and prostitution. These are the tools being used to pacify us and these are the tools being used to turn us against eachother. Go into any white neighborhood and you&#39;ll see there are no liquor stores or gun shops but go into any other neighborhood and its filled with them. What does that tell you? We need to start keeping our dollars in our own communities; the Jews, Irish, and other minorities did it when they came to America and still do. This is what will empower us and weaken the white man.
:unsure:

Shit dude.......I&#39;m white.

now you&#39;re just sounding like a raving racist fuck.

[Nachie]

I essentially agree with what guerrillablack was hinting at, which is that at the rank and file level, the NBPP does contain many committed individuals with practical views not only on action but also working together with white revolutionaries. These people can in no way be compared to the organized racialist violence perpetrated by white supremacist groups. Yes, even while some of their leadership make anti-Jewish remarks.

I haven&#39;t personally encountered the NBPP since 2000-1 during a campaign to stop the closing of a general hospital downtown, but they had a handful of members on that and they all seemed like solid people, definitely had no problems talking to me as a white kid.

However, the party&#39;s politics are definitely FUCKED UP in a lot of ways, owing mainly to the ridiculous things said by its spokespeople over the years. A lot of them are just straight up racists themselves, though it&#39;s important to note that for people of color, "reverse racism" can often be an act of self-love rather than pure reactionary hate, and for the most part is nowhere near as impenetrable as white nationalism in its thickheadedness, and especially not in terms of recourse to violence against innocents.

The way I see them is like I see all rank-and-file members from groups such as MOVE and Nation of Islam. They are definitely potential allies especially as a lot of the membership are just committed revolutionaries with no ties to some of their organization&#39;s loonier platforms and statements.

That said, former members of the original Black Panther Party for Self-Defense have already come out and said that the NBPP is racist bullshit, so keep that in mind if you&#39;re planning to actually work with them on an official, organization-wide level.

Johnny Anarcho, I find your opinion that "for there to ever be true racial peace the black man and white man must seperate" to be very depressing and I hope something over the years can give you cause to rethink it.

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 10 2006, 05:47 AM
Johnny Anarcho


What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man
This is what will empower us and weaken the white man.
If a white person made similar anti-white statements, he would be immediately banned. Why is not this person banned, or at least restricted? How can you claim that you promote equality of all races, while you do NOT TREAT equally the white racists and the black racists? With your tolerance of black nationalism, you alienate from the Left those white people who are sincerely anti-racists, but who are offended by anti-white statements, like those ones that Johnny Anarcho made.

This person clearly stated that &#39;&#39; the white man is his enemy&#39;&#39;. I know that many RevLeft members are white; I would like to ask them; how can you tolerate a person, who considers the white man, and consequently YOU, an enemy? Let&#39;s forget for a while politics, communism, nationalism, Left, socialism etc, and let&#39;s remember something else; COMMON SENSE. COMMON SENSE says that when someone considers you an enemy, you should consider him an enemy as well.
Anything else is just suicidal.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by adenoid [email protected] 11 2006, 12:23 AM
If a white person made similar anti-white statements, he would be immediately banned. Why is not this person banned, or at least restricted? How can you claim that you promote equality of all races, while you do NOT TREAT equally the white racists and the black racists? With your tolerance of black nationalism, you alienate from the Left those white people who are sincerely anti-racists, but who are offended by anti-white statements, like those ones that Johnny Anarcho made.

This person clearly stated that &#39;&#39; the white man is his enemy&#39;&#39;. I know that many RevLeft members are white; I would like to ask them; how can you tolerate a person, who considers the white man, and consequently YOU, an enemy? Let&#39;s forget for a while politics, communism, nationalism, Left, socialism etc, and let&#39;s remember something else; COMMON SENSE. COMMON SENSE says that when someone considers you an enemy, you should consider him an enemy as well.
Anything else is just suicidal.
oh please. what a way to totally overreact.

feel threatened? could that be because your position of privilege is actually being *gasp* challenged?&#33;

while i may not agree totally with what johnny anarcho is proposing, please do not ever draw paralells between racism against people who aren&#39;t white (which is built into all western &#39;democracies&#39; that i can think of, post-colonial countries, shit, the whole fucking world) and racism perpetrated by black nationalists which is in direct reaction to centuries of oppression and subjugation.

for now i&#39;m going to assume that by &#39;the white man is our enemy&#39; he meant more the system which white men are likely to want to protect as it gives them power over non-white people, rather than individual white men. i could be wrong, but i&#39;m gonna wait for more &#39;evidence&#39;.

and also, your calls for treating black nationalists as the &#39;enemy&#39; and saying that anything else is &#39;suicidal&#39; strikes me as hysterical and disturbing.

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by adenoid hynkel+Jun 10 2006, 02:53 PM--> (adenoid hynkel @ Jun 10 2006, 02:53 PM)
Johnny [email protected] 10 2006, 05:47 AM
Johnny Anarcho


What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man
This is what will empower us and weaken the white man.
If a white person made similar anti-white statements, he would be immediately banned. Why is not this person banned, or at least restricted? How can you claim that you promote equality of all races, while you do NOT TREAT equally the white racists and the black racists? With your tolerance of black nationalism, you alienate from the Left those white people who are sincerely anti-racists, but who are offended by anti-white statements, like those ones that Johnny Anarcho made.

This person clearly stated that &#39;&#39; the white man is his enemy&#39;&#39;. I know that many RevLeft members are white; I would like to ask them; how can you tolerate a person, who considers the white man, and consequently YOU, an enemy? Let&#39;s forget for a while politics, communism, nationalism, Left, socialism etc, and let&#39;s remember something else; COMMON SENSE. COMMON SENSE says that when someone considers you an enemy, you should consider him an enemy as well.
Anything else is just suicidal. [/b]
First of all my position of privilege is not challenged, because I do not have one.
I do not have any privilege over non-whites, because in my country, Greece, there are very few of them.

I have met some leftish like you; my country, Greece, was under Turkish occupation, for 400 hundred years. If I say that "the Turkish man is the enemy" they will say that I am a racist, a fascist, a nazi etc. But if a black person says that " the white man is the enemy", then they say that there is no problem.
They accept that there is "group guilt"( the concept that someone is guilty for the actions of the group, race, ethnicity, tribe etc in which he belongs) for the group in which they belong, but they do not accept that there is "group guilt" for all the other groups.

My personal opinion is clear.I do not accept the concept of "group guilt" in no occasion. I do not even feel guilty for family&#39;s wrongdoings, and offcourse I do not feel guilty for the wrongdoings of my race. And if I accuse you I will never accuse you for something that your race did wrong, I will accuse you for something that you did wrong.

I won&#39;t feel guilty because 400 years some white men enslaves some black ones. I feel sorry for it, but not at all guilty.

If you believe that I am overreacting when I say that Black nationalists are the enemy you should enter a black nationalist discussion board; There are tons of " kill the whites&#39;&#39; statements there. If you think that there is nothing wrong with such statements, then there is no problem; I disagree.

Asfar as I know, the majority of Black nationalists consider the white people as their enemy; they do not claim that the enemy is the racist white, the KKK, or the whites of the ruling class; I would have NO PROBLEM if they said something like this. But they do not say something like this; they say that the white people are the enemies.

If you justify the anti-white Blacks, because the majority of the ruling class are white, then you should also justify the Nazis; after all in pro-WW2, the majority of the German ruling class were Jews. Even Ulrike Meinhof said that the Nazi anti-semitism was, in fact, a form of anti-capitalism.

[Nachie]

Yes, but white supremacy as a world system can be identified and confronted, and as rioters bloc pointed out, this is more often than not what is specifically meant by "the white man" (we will have to wait and see if Johnny Anarcho says this is what he meant, though). You cannot treat race tension as a question of "feeling guilty for what happened 400 years ago" or "getting revenge for what happened 400 years ago"; (let&#39;s remember that the official "end" of slavery was in fact much more recent) it has a basis in the material conditions faced by our struggle against the current hegemony, which remains fundamentally white supremacist.

I respect that, being from Greece, you probably have a unique view on these questions, but I ask that you in turn appreciate the United States context in particular and develop a more thorough analysis as to why different forms of black nationalism have existed and in some cases even become mass movements (specifically, the NOI). You may be able to find some more parallels in the situation in Cyprus, for instance.

Consider this: The ideological and organizational basis for what became the "civil rights movement" in the Southern US was actually put into place by serious revolutionary organizing around race issues by communists in the first half of the last century, both black and white. Speaking from the American context, race is a huge issue.


Asfar as I know, the majority of Black nationalists consider the white people as their enemy; they do not claim that the enemy is the racist white, the KKK, or the whites of the ruling class; I would have NO PROBLEM if they said something like this. But they do not say something like this; they say that the white people are the enemies.
This really just isn&#39;t true and is a misinterpretation of their analysis. The enemy is indeed not only the KKK and white ruling class, but institutionalized white supremacy itself. This both includes otherwise-oppressed (poor) whites who are nevertheless put in positions of relative privilege AND blacks who "sell out" to shore up the ultimate interests of the system, based as it is in the protection of property relations determined by the genocide of non-white peoples.

This isn&#39;t "group guilt", it&#39;s a practical analysis of the system we&#39;re up against.

Yes, there are in fact crazy racist bigots who identify as black nationalists. They&#39;re pretty easy to avoid, though. Also the Internet is stupid and people say all sorts of bullshit on it. It wouldn&#39;t surprise me at all if a "kill whitey" black nationalist forum-jockey was actually much more tolerant when it came to building alliances face-to-face. As I mentioned above, what passes for "reverse-racism" by people of color is usually an act of self-love and a declaration of liberty and independence from the dominant (white) paradigm. To the extent that this paradigm is violent and extremist, reactions to it will sometimes take on those characteristics, though often only superficially and as rioters bloc said, POC nationalism can in no way be compared to white nationalism, though it does have the potential to become just as destructive and even degenerate into Maoism.

My main interest in black nationalism is in its strategy of building independent community-owned business and infrastructure. Where this deepens reliance on capitalism, white boss or black boss, I oppose it. Where this creates dual power and self-valorization for the community, I strongly support it and in my experience "black nationalist" groups engaged in this type of activity are not at all hostile to white revolutionaries seeking to act in solidarity, it&#39;s just that they are trying to focus on their own communities, and those communities - shockingly enough - tend to be made up of people of color.


Even Ulrike Meinhof said that the Nazi anti-semitism was, in fact, a form of anti-capitalism.
Ignoring the implications of this statement, I&#39;d like to say that the Nazis and other fascist movements were, first and foremost, an anti-communist phenomenon.

[guerillablack]

Thank you Nachie. I commend you on that post.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 08:19 PM
Yes, but white supremacy as a world system can be identified and confronted, and as rioters bloc pointed out, this is more often than not what is specifically meant by "the white man" (we will have to wait and see if Johnny Anarcho says this is what he meant, though).
Thats exactly what I mean, the white man as a collective force not as an individual. In my time I&#39;ve met some whites who are good and I&#39;ve nothing against them but its white people collectively that I have problems with.

[Red Polak]

I pretty much agree with adenoid hynkel.


Also I&#39;m gonna add this:

sure, whites had black slaves (and arabs had slaves and blacks had slaves) but which racial group actually stopped slavery?

whites.

So why are whites on the receiving end of all the hate? It&#39;s ridiculous.



I totally disagree with anyone saying that "white man is the enemy". For fuck&#39;s sake - can&#39;t you see your own hypocrisy. Personally I wouldn&#39;t fight alongside someone with that attitude, you know why? What happens when we get to Communism? Are they still going to regard "white man" (though I&#39;m female) as the "enemy".

I see only one difference between black and white supremacists. :angry:

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by adenoid hynkel+Jun 10 2006, 02:53 PM--> (adenoid hynkel @ Jun 10 2006, 02:53 PM)
Johnny [email protected] 10 2006, 05:47 AM
Johnny Anarcho


What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man
This is what will empower us and weaken the white man.
If a white person made similar anti-white statements, he would be immediately banned. Why is not this person banned, or at least restricted? How can you claim that you promote equality of all races, while you do NOT TREAT equally the white racists and the black racists? With your tolerance of black nationalism, you alienate from the Left those white people who are sincerely anti-racists, but who are offended by anti-white statements, like those ones that Johnny Anarcho made.

This person clearly stated that &#39;&#39; the white man is his enemy&#39;&#39;. I know that many RevLeft members are white; I would like to ask them; how can you tolerate a person, who considers the white man, and consequently YOU, an enemy? Let&#39;s forget for a while politics, communism, nationalism, Left, socialism etc, and let&#39;s remember something else; COMMON SENSE. COMMON SENSE says that when someone considers you an enemy, you should consider him an enemy as well.
Anything else is just suicidal. [/b]
I never said "the white man is my enemy". This is what I call "White Reactionism". White Reactionism as I define it is when the white majority hears blacks speaking against them and tries to put words in their mouths. The same thing was done to Malcolm X during his time with the Nation of Islam, he was called a radical, a hate-mongerer, a "black-supremacist" if there is such a thing. Looking at the situation of black people in America it wouldnt be wrong top come up with some radical ideas and as long as we are oppressed like we are I think we should be allowed to be "black-supremacist" because the government is white-supremacist.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 10 2006, 09:59 PM
I pretty much agree with adenoid hynkel.


Also I&#39;m gonna add this:

sure, whites had black slaves (and arabs had slaves and blacks had slaves) but which racial group actually stopped slavery?

whites.

So why are whites on the receiving end of all the hate? It&#39;s ridiculous.



I totally disagree with anyone saying that "white man is the enemy". For fuck&#39;s sake - can&#39;t you see your own hypocrisy.
We may have been taken off the fields but we werent liberated. We never got our promised reperations, we were never protected from lynching, we were never given the same living conditions or value as human beings like the whites had. We were taken from slavery to subjagation. So the real hypocrites are the whites that say they freed us when white people actually have the longest list of imperialism, colonization, human rights violations, etc. The white power-structure tried to convince us that we needed civil rights when what we really needed were human rights. Malcolm X knew this and he was shot, MLK knew it and spoke out on Vietnam and he was shot. Before that Marcus Garvey knew it and he "disappeared". This is no democracy, this is hypocracy.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

riiiight, you want blacks and whites to live seperately.

so how does this distingish you from the "white nationalists" over on Stormfront? <_<




Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 10 2006, 06:47 AM
What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man. We need to stop eating his pork, stop drinking his alcohol, stop using his drugs, gambling, and prostitution. These are the tools being used to pacify us and these are the tools being used to turn us against eachother. Go into any white neighborhood and you&#39;ll see there are no liquor stores or gun shops but go into any other neighborhood and its filled with them. What does that tell you? We need to start keeping our dollars in our own communities; the Jews, Irish, and other minorities did it when they came to America and still do. This is what will empower us and weaken the white man.
:unsure:

Shit dude.......I&#39;m white.

now you&#39;re just sounding like a raving racist fuck.

I completly agree. That&#39;s what I was pushing at. The Black Panthers and nation of Islam hate white people because of the color of their skin. that&#39;s rascism. Nazis do the same thing.


We may have been taken off the fields but we werent liberated. We never got our promised reperations, we were never protected from lynching, we were never given the same living conditions or value as human beings like the whites had. We were taken from slavery to subjagation. So the real hypocrites are the whites that say they freed us when white people actually have the longest list of imperialism, colonization, human rights violations, etc. The white power-structure tried to convince us that we needed civil rights when what we really needed were human rights. Malcolm X knew this and he was shot, MLK knew it and spoke out on Vietnam and he was shot. Before that Marcus Garvey knew it and he "disappeared". This is no democracy, this is hypocracy.

What>>??? Have you ever been enslaved? If you have something needs to be done&#33; Jesus I thought slavery was ended 200 years ago.

I agree with the idea of reparations and affirmative action, but I definatly disagree with you when you say the white man did this and the white man did that because my family didn&#39;t come here until like 20 years ago. WTF does my quite french family have to do with enslaving you? I agree it&#39;s no coincidence that Jesus, Che, Malcom X, MLK, and etc.. all got assainated by coincidence and that this is no democracy but it&#39;s not the white man&#39;s fault, it&#39;s the fucking capitalists fault


I never said "the white man is my enemy".

Really then I must have been dreaming this below.



What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+Jun 10 2006, 10:36 PM--> (LeftyHenry @ Jun 10 2006, 10:36 PM)
riiiight, you want blacks and whites to live seperately.

so how does this distingish you from the "white nationalists" over on Stormfront? <_<




Johnny [email protected] 10 2006, 06:47 AM
What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man. We need to stop eating his pork, stop drinking his alcohol, stop using his drugs, gambling, and prostitution. These are the tools being used to pacify us and these are the tools being used to turn us against eachother. Go into any white neighborhood and you&#39;ll see there are no liquor stores or gun shops but go into any other neighborhood and its filled with them. What does that tell you? We need to start keeping our dollars in our own communities; the Jews, Irish, and other minorities did it when they came to America and still do. This is what will empower us and weaken the white man.
:unsure:

Shit dude.......I&#39;m white.

now you&#39;re just sounding like a raving racist fuck.

I completly agree. That&#39;s what I was pushing at. The Black Panthers and nation of Islam hate white people because of the color of their skin. that&#39;s rascism. Nazis do the same thing.


We may have been taken off the fields but we werent liberated. We never got our promised reperations, we were never protected from lynching, we were never given the same living conditions or value as human beings like the whites had. We were taken from slavery to subjagation. So the real hypocrites are the whites that say they freed us when white people actually have the longest list of imperialism, colonization, human rights violations, etc. The white power-structure tried to convince us that we needed civil rights when what we really needed were human rights. Malcolm X knew this and he was shot, MLK knew it and spoke out on Vietnam and he was shot. Before that Marcus Garvey knew it and he "disappeared". This is no democracy, this is hypocracy.

What>>??? Have you ever been enslaved? If you have something needs to be done&#33; Jesus I thought slavery was ended 200 years ago.

I agree with the idea of reparations and affirmative action, but I definatly disagree with you when you say the white man did this and the white man did that because my family didn&#39;t come here until like 20 years ago. WTF does my quite french family have to do with enslaving you? I agree it&#39;s no coincidence that Jesus, Che, Malcom X, MLK, and etc.. all got assainated by coincidence and that this is no democracy but it&#39;s not the white man&#39;s fault, it&#39;s the fucking capitalists fault


I never said "the white man is my enemy".

Really then I must have been dreaming this below.



What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man. [/b]
You cant prove that the Black Panthers were racist; they defended blacks from police brutality, provided children with breakfasts and education, and provided our communities with tests for the sickle-cell virus which was the #1 killer of black men at the time. The Nation of Islam is notorious for its rehabilitation of prisoners, drugies, and others who had fallen to the lowest of lows. Not to mention their skill in tring to keep black money in black communities. Yeah its the capitalists fault but I dont think its coincidence that the majority of rich people are white.

[Nachie]

Originally posted by Johnny Anarcho+Jun 10 2006, 09:56 PM--> (Johnny Anarcho &#064; Jun 10 2006, 09:56 PM)I&#39;ve nothing against them but its white people collectively that I have problems with.[/b]
Hmmm <_<

This is still a problematic statement. I know what you mean because you have said that what I said was what you meant, and I can contextualize your comments better than most. But a lot of people would be like "He doesn&#39;t hate specific whites, just whites in general? Whaaaa?" and be rightly confused. Your statement is still prejudiced (though I&#39;m open to hearing some other opinions).

In fact, it sounds a lot like some of the knuckleheaded white supremacists who don&#39;t hate "specific blacks" when they&#39;re in a cell with them or their prison gangs are forced by circumstance to do mutual business, but continue to speak out against "blacks in general". To me it would make much more sense to hate specific whites and NOT white people in general.

Now, if instead of "white people collectively" you were to say, "the white power structure", that would be a very clear statement to me and I would understand exactly what you are talking about (although that term might still be unclear to others).

I believe a little earlier in this thread you expressed separatist viewpoints though, so I don&#39;t know how far I can really agree with you.


"Red Polak"
sure, whites had black slaves (and arabs had slaves and blacks had slaves) but which racial group actually stopped slavery?
What? WHAT? Is this even an argument? That&#39;s like saying the US Military deserves credit for stopping the Vietnam conflict because they were the ones who ultimately had to take the physical step of pulling out. It completely denies abolitionist struggle in all its forms and reduces the end of slavery to a simple act of charity for which one should be thankful&#33; I repeat again: WHAT?

Also, just since I seem to have opened my mouth so much on this issue, I&#39;d like to state very clearly that I myself am "white". Although I&#39;m also Brazilian, so all I have to do is grow my hair/beard out and spend some days in the sun and you wouldn&#39;t know what to make of me :P

And just as a general question for Johnny Anarcho... please don&#39;t think I am attacking you or accusing you of anything, I&#39;m just a little confused:

You began this thread yesterday, at which point your sig had links for the CPUSA and YCL in it. Now only one day later, your sig has completely changed and includes links to various "black nationalist" groups, including the NBPP which you had been so unclear about in the first place (and you even called them racist (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50985&view=findpost&p=1292084991)). You also changed your personal title to "Black Nationalist", and over the course of your posts in this thread it seems to me that you must have already been at least somewhat acquainted with "black nationalist" thought.

Can you please shed some light on your recent conversion and what led to it? It is just a question of your looking for the right semantics with which to define your politics?

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by Nachie+Jun 10 2006, 11:00 PM--> (Nachie @ Jun 10 2006, 11:00 PM)
Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 10 2006, 09:56 PM
I&#39;ve nothing against them but its white people collectively that I have problems with.
Hmmm <_<

This is still a problematic statement. I know what you mean because you have said that what I said was what you meant, and I can contextualize your comments better than most. But a lot of people would be like "He doesn&#39;t hate specific whites, just whites in general? Whaaaa?" and be rightly confused. Your statement is still prejudiced (though I&#39;m open to hearing some other opinions).

In fact, it sounds a lot like some of the knuckleheaded white supremacists who don&#39;t hate "specific blacks" when they&#39;re in a cell with them or their prison gangs are forced by circumstance to do mutual business, but continue to speak out against "blacks in general". To me it would make much more sense to hate specific whites and NOT white people in general.

Now, if instead of "white people collectively" you were to say, "the white power structure", that would be a very clear statement to me and I would understand exactly what you are talking about (although that term might still be unclear to others).

I believe a little earlier in this thread you expressed separatist viewpoints though, so I don&#39;t know how far I can really agree with you.


"Red Polak"
sure, whites had black slaves (and arabs had slaves and blacks had slaves) but which racial group actually stopped slavery?
What? WHAT? Is this even an argument? That&#39;s like saying the US Military deserves credit for stopping the Vietnam conflict because they were the ones who ultimately had to take the physical step of pulling out. It completely denies abolitionist struggle in all its forms and reduces the end of slavery to a simple act of charity for which one should be thankful&#33; I repeat again: WHAT?

Also, just since I seem to have opened my mouth so much on this issue, I&#39;d like to state very clearly that I myself am "white". Although I&#39;m also Brazilian, so all I have to do is grow my hair/beard out and spend some days in the sun and you wouldn&#39;t know what to make of me :P

And just as a general question for Johnny Anarcho... please don&#39;t think I am attacking you or accusing you of anything, I&#39;m just a little confused:

You began this thread yesterday, at which point your sig had links for the CPUSA and YCL in it. Now only one day later, your sig has completely changed and includes links to various "black nationalist" groups, including the NBPP which you had been so unclear about in the first place (and you even called them racist (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50985&view=findpost&p=1292084991)). You also changed your personal title to "Black Nationalist", and over the course of your posts in this thread it seems to me that you must have already been at least somewhat acquainted with "black nationalist" thought.

Can you please shed some light on your recent conversion and what led to it? It is just a question of your looking for the right semantics with which to define your politics? [/b]
You hit the nail on the head, I have problems expressing what I really mean sometimes. To anyone who misunderstood me allow me to make my views clear. I am against the system that white America has set up and how its affected my people. Im against the whites who control it, support it, etc. I had some knowledge about Malcom X and the Black Panthers but with help from wikipedia.org I did some more study and decided that Black Nationalism was the movement for me. To show my support I changed my sig and after listening to guerillablack I found out I was wrong about the NBPP.

[Nachie]

Word, thanks for clarifying.

[Eoin Dubh]

Originally posted by adenoid [email protected] 10 2006, 02:53 PM
Why is not this person banned, or at least restricted?


I second this. Off to OI with him.
Time in the penalty box is called for.

[Nachie]

Originally posted by Eoin [email protected] 11 2006, 12:32 AM
I second this. Off to OI with him.
FUCK THAT

1. I and others have already explained how the comments in question cannot be viewed in the same context as (roughly) comprable statements made by a white person.

2. As you can see above, I have questioned Johnny Anarcho as to the specifics of his statements and he has clarified them greatly. I would by no means call him a racist, though I do believe that his views on separatism need to be further explored.

3. According to his profile, Johnny Anarcho is 15 years old. As was just covered in the posts above, he is unsure of how to define his ideas and has been making significant changes to his profile within a relatively short period of time. Now is not the time to just ban him and feel good about yourselves. Let&#39;s play this thread out and see where it goes.

The dude is still learning, for fuck&#39;s sake&#33;

[OneBrickOneVoice]

You cant prove that the Black Panthers were racist; they defended blacks from police brutality, provided children with breakfasts and education, and provided our communities with tests for the sickle-cell virus which was the #1 killer of black men at the time. The Nation of Islam is notorious for its rehabilitation of prisoners, drugies, and others who had fallen to the lowest of lows. Not to mention their skill in tring to keep black money in black communities. Yeah its the capitalists fault but I dont think its coincidence that the majority of rich people are white.


:lol: I lol&#39;d when you said the black panthers weren&#39;t rascist. Saying the black panthers aren&#39;t rascist is like saying Wal-Mart pays there workers high wages. It&#39;s what they build their platform on. "get whitey" doesn&#39;t mean get to be friends with him, it means kill him&#33;

I&#39;m saying that the Black Panthers are largly misguided. They should not blame the white man. They should blame capitalism and how it&#39;s rigged against the black man to stop him from succeeding. They should encourage white communists and socialists to join their cause and fight for what they fight for. Rascism and nationalism gets us nowhere. unity does.

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by Nachie+Jun 11 2006, 01:42 AM--> (Nachie @ Jun 11 2006, 01:42 AM)
Eoin [email protected] 11 2006, 12:32 AM
I second this. Off to OI with him.
FUCK THAT

1. I and others have already explained how the comments in question cannot be viewed in the same context as (roughly) comprable statements made by a white person.

2. As you can see above, I have questioned Johnny Anarcho as to the specifics of his statements and he has clarified them greatly. I would by no means call him a racist, though I do believe that his views on separatism need to be further explored.

3. According to his profile, Johnny Anarcho is 15 years old. As was just covered in the posts above, he is unsure of how to define his ideas and has been making significant changes to his profile within a relatively short period of time. Now is not the time to just ban him and feel good about yourselves. Let&#39;s play this thread out and see where it goes.

The dude is still learning, for fuck&#39;s sake&#33; [/b]
1. So there&#39;s one set of rules for whites and another for blacks?

2. black nationalism is, in the same way as white nationalism, racist.

3. learning? He asked about the black panthers, was told they are racist, admitted they are racist and then put a link to them in his signature&#33;

[OneBrickOneVoice]

1. So there&#39;s one set of rules for whites and another for blacks?

2. black nationalism is, in the same way as white nationalism, racist.

3. learning? He asked about the black panthers, was told they are racist, admitted they are racist and then put a link to them in his signature&#33;

The only difference is that groups like the KKK and Neo-Nazis politically are extrmely conservative technically, while Black Panthers are socialists.

I&#39;m offended too but banning him is a little harsh, won&#39;t you say? He&#39;s still a leftist.

[rioters bloc]

there have been some very, very disturbing comments made on this thread, and while some of them were made by johnny anarcho i think he explained himself reasonably well.

however, the ones arguing for him to be banned/restricted seem to have a poor grasp of the concepts of colonisation, imperialism, and slavery. they also seem to feel as though they are the &#39;victims&#39; here - "i didn&#39;t personally whip you and lynch your mother, so you have nothing to complain about&#33;" very similar to the kind of remarks our esteemed prime minister johnny howard made when refusing to apologise to Indigenous peoples in Australia about the last 200+ years of oppression and attempted genocide (not that i think that a &#39;sorry&#39; is going to help things, but if he can&#39;t even make a token gesture of empathy than i have no hope in australia&#39;s future in regards to Indigenous Australia).

but where was i...


oh yes


Originally posted by LeftyHenry
I&#39;m saying that the Black Panthers are largly misguided. They should not blame the white man. They should blame capitalism and how it&#39;s rigged against the black man to stop him from succeeding. They should encourage white communists and socialists to join their cause and fight for what they fight for. Rascism and nationalism gets us nowhere. unity does.

it&#39;s very easy to call for unity when you haven&#39;t been on the receiving end of the kind of racism and violence that was perpetrated against black people in america, and non-white people all over the world for centuries. i&#39;m quite confused, as well. how is capitalism responsible for racial profiling? when the cops automatically pick me out of a protest cos i&#39;m one of the only black people there, or when my friend is spat on and called &#39;a filthy rapist wog&#39; for being of &#39;middle-eastern appearance&#39;, where&#39;s capitalism there? i thought that capitalism would love me since being black i&#39;m more likely to submit to low paying, shit jobs so they can exploit me more?

racism isn&#39;t caused by capitalism, capitalism exploits racism for its own means.

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 03:05 AM
The only difference is that groups like the KKK and Neo-Nazis politically are extrmely conservative technically, while Black Panthers are socialists.

I&#39;m offended too but banning him is a little harsh, won&#39;t you say? He&#39;s still a leftist.
I didn&#39;t call for him to be restricted.

But I do feel it&#39;s ridiculous what he&#39;s saying and being defended about because he&#39;s black so he has a ligitimate reason to say such things, whereas I&#39;ve just been accused of racism elsewhere on the forum for a post condeming "religious types" in Irak. :rolleyes:

I don&#39;t like the whole double standards thing.



er...and arguably, many neo-nazis are pretty left wing economically.

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by rioters bloc+Jun 11 2006, 03:07 AM--> (rioters bloc &#064; Jun 11 2006, 03:07 AM)there have been some very, very disturbing comments made on this thread, and while some of them were made by johnny anarcho i think he explained himself reasonably well.

however, the ones arguing for him to be banned/restricted seem to have a poor grasp of the concepts of colonisation, imperialism, and slavery. they also seem to feel as though they are the &#39;victims&#39; here - "i didn&#39;t personally whip you and lynch your mother, so you have nothing to complain about&#33;" very similar to the kind of remarks our esteemed prime minister johnny howard made when refusing to apologise to Indigenous peoples in Australia about the last 200+ years of oppression and attempted genocide (not that i think that a &#39;sorry&#39; is going to help things, but if he can&#39;t even make a token gesture of empathy than i have no hope in australia&#39;s future in regards to Indigenous Australia).[/b]

Yeah, I already pointed this out though - everyone on earth needs to apologize to everyone else.

What good is apologizing like that? it just looses all meaning.


rioters [email protected] 11 2006, 03:07 AM
it&#39;s very easy to call for unity when you haven&#39;t been on the receiving end of the kind of racism and violence that was perpetrated against black people in america, and non-white people all over the world for centuries. i&#39;m quite confused, as well. how is capitalism responsible for racial profiling? when the cops automatically pick me out of a protest cos i&#39;m one of the only black people there, or when my friend is spat on and called &#39;a filthy rapist wog&#39; for being of &#39;middle-eastern appearance&#39;, where&#39;s capitalism there? i thought that capitalism would love me since being black i&#39;m more likely to submit to low paying, shit jobs so they can exploit me more?

racism isn&#39;t caused by capitalism, capitalism exploits racism for its own means.

Thing is, nor has Johnny Anarcho been on the receiving end of the racism during the slavery of blacks in America. And neither have I been on the receiving end of the slavery of white Brits to Islamic slavemasters.



"non-white people all over the world for centuries."

er what?

You don&#39;t think that whites can suffer racism too?

"dirty Polak" - lovely. :rolleyes:

But really, you know that Brits were enslaved by muslims in the 15th (???) century? They went to Britain by sea and then landed and captured the people and took them back to their lands. I&#39;m not saying white slavery was worse than black, or that either is more ligitamate than the other, but all too often people forget that not only whites owned slaves.



edit:
I don&#39;t know if this post makes sense or not, on particial re-reading I&#39;m thinking no, so sorry about that. If it don&#39;t then just ignore it and I&#39;ll respond in morning.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

it&#39;s very easy to call for unity when you haven&#39;t been on the receiving end of the kind of racism and violence that was perpetrated against black people in america, and non-white people all over the world for centuries. i&#39;m quite confused, as well. how is capitalism responsible for racial profiling? when the cops automatically pick me out of a protest cos i&#39;m one of the only black people there, or when my friend is spat on and called &#39;a filthy rapist wog&#39; for being of &#39;middle-eastern appearance&#39;, where&#39;s capitalism there? i thought that capitalism would love me since being black i&#39;m more likely to submit to low paying, shit jobs so they can exploit me more?

racism isn&#39;t caused by capitalism, capitalism exploits racism for its own means.

capitalism isn&#39;t reponsible for racial profiling. It&#39;s responsible for the oppression of the black community. Racial profiling is due to the fact that capitalism oppresses black people. Black people than &#39;steal&#39; to feed themselves. Cops stereotype. It&#39;s basically like that. Also fucking hip-hop encourages drugs and money and stuff so people feel they have to steal to get that stuff to be cool and rich. It&#39;s a vicious cycle and earlier in this thread I said I can understand where the hate comes from but it shouldn&#39;t be funneled at me because I tan lighter than you&#33; It should be funneled at capitalists who are the masterminds. Ever heard of the KKK? They hate because of the color of a man&#39;s skin. See the similarities between the BP and them?

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 02:29 AM

it&#39;s very easy to call for unity when you haven&#39;t been on the receiving end of the kind of racism and violence that was perpetrated against black people in america, and non-white people all over the world for centuries. i&#39;m quite confused, as well. how is capitalism responsible for racial profiling? when the cops automatically pick me out of a protest cos i&#39;m one of the only black people there, or when my friend is spat on and called &#39;a filthy rapist wog&#39; for being of &#39;middle-eastern appearance&#39;, where&#39;s capitalism there? i thought that capitalism would love me since being black i&#39;m more likely to submit to low paying, shit jobs so they can exploit me more?

racism isn&#39;t caused by capitalism, capitalism exploits racism for its own means.

capitalism isn&#39;t reponsible for racial profiling. It&#39;s responsible for the oppression of the black community. Racial profiling is due to the fact that capitalism oppresses black people. Black people than &#39;steal&#39; to feed themselves. Cops stereotype. It&#39;s basically like that. Also fucking hip-hop encourages drugs and money and stuff so people feel they have to steal to get that stuff to be cool and rich. It&#39;s a vicious cycle and earlier in this thread I said I can understand where the hate comes from but it shouldn&#39;t be funneled at me because I tan lighter than you&#33; It should be funneled at capitalists who are the masterminds. Ever heard of the KKK? They hate because of the color of a man&#39;s skin. See the similarities between the BP and them?
I see where youre coming from but no, there are no simularities between the KKK and BP.

[Eoin Dubh]

Originally posted by Nachie+Jun 11 2006, 12:42 AM--> (Nachie &#064; Jun 11 2006, 12:42 AM)
Eoin [email protected] 11 2006, 12:32 AM
I second this. Off to OI with him.
FUCK THAT

[/b]

Have another look at who you are defending.

QUOTE (Johnny Anarcho @ Jun 10 2006, 09:03 AM)

When living in a white supremacist nation I think we have the right to be black supremacist if there is such a thing. What the white man needs to realize is that by "intergrating" with us we will never be satisfied and the only solution is for him to pay his debt to us by giving us our own lands, our own property.

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...topic=50726&hl= (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50726&hl=)
That is not Communism, Natchie.
What he is proposing is Separatism and Nationalism.
That is the mentality you find on Stormfront. It doesnt belong here.
Other members have been sent to OI for much milder posts.

[Nachie]

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+Jun 11 2006, 01:31 AM--> (LeftyHenry &#064; Jun 11 2006, 01:31 AM):lol: I lol&#39;d when you said the black panthers weren&#39;t rascist. Saying the black panthers aren&#39;t rascist is like saying Wal-Mart pays there workers high wages. It&#39;s what they build their platform on. "get whitey" doesn&#39;t mean get to be friends with him, it means kill him&#33;[/b]
For the sake of clarity, let us be extremely careful in defining whether we are talking about the BPP or the N"BPP". The first was probably the most important American revolutionary organization in the second half of the last century, and the second is a knock-off and mini-NOI that is indeed racist but has a large non-racist base primarily due to the credibility it jacks from the original.

If you read the actual BPP&#39;s Ten Point Program (http://www.blackpanther.org/TenPoint.htm), that shit is right on. All the demands listed are "positive" demands, many of which do not mention race at all and led to the creation of revolutionary strategies for all communities. There is nothing even close to "get whitey" in the 10 Point Program. One of the points is "We want an end to the robbery by the capitalists of our black and oppressed communities"


Originally posted by "Red Polak"+--> ("Red Polak")1. So there&#39;s one set of rules for whites and another for blacks?[/b]
Yes, and it&#39;s held in place by the violence of the state against all our wishes. Did you think our enlightened leftist discourses were automatically exempt from that context? Do they exist in a vaccum, or are we actually going to be talking about the real world here?


2. black nationalism is, in the same way as white nationalism, racist.
I quote myself, "I do believe that [Johnny Anarcho&#39;s] views on separatism need to be further explored."


3. learning? He asked about the black panthers, was told they are racist, admitted they are racist and then put a link to them in his signature&#33;
The whole point of this thread is that he had been in some sort of contact with the NBPP. It&#39;s entirely possible that the militants he has spoken to are not racist at all, as not everyone in the NBPP is. On this, too I would like to hear more from Mr. Anarcho.

("LeftyHenry")The only difference is that groups like the KKK and Neo-Nazis politically are extrmely conservative technically, while Black Panthers are socialists.[/b][/quote]
The original BPP was. The "new" one is about as socialist as Qaddafi.

("Red Polak")But I do feel it&#39;s ridiculous what he&#39;s saying and being defended about because he&#39;s black so he has a ligitimate reason to say such things, whereas I&#39;ve just been accused of racism elsewhere on the forum for a post condeming "religious types" in Irak.[/b][/quote]
I am personally not defending anything he is saying. They are his views and he is capable of defending them himself. I have called for him to elaborate on his statements and tried to contextualize his statements for the sake of warding off the kind of people who call "racism" at every little piece of nonsense.

I was once given a warning point for "racism" after I responded in kind to someone using Eazy-E lyrics as a dis against me, and the lyrics I posted contained the n-word. So if you would be so kind as to link me to the post where you are being accused of racism, I will gladly defend you there if it does indeed turn out to be bullshit.


er...and arguably, many neo-nazis are pretty left wing economically.
Who the hell would argue that? Social Democrats?


Thing is, nor has Johnny Anarcho been on the receiving end of the racism during the slavery of blacks in America.
What world do you live in where racism was magically abolished when slavery was? Pretend slavery never even happened. Just look at how things are right now. Still pretty fuckin&#39; racist, eh?


"non-white people all over the world for centuries."

er what?
I think that statement&#39;s meaning is pretty clear. Europeans are pretty much at the top of the pile in terms of systematic genocide against people perceived as being of a different race.

Why, it&#39;s almost like their entire system is founded on it, or something. :unsure:


You don&#39;t think that whites can suffer racism too?
Can I recommend a book called How the Irish Became White? Excellent read, I think you&#39;d find it interesting.


"LeftyHenry"@
capitalism isn&#39;t reponsible for racial profiling. It&#39;s responsible for the oppression of the black community. Racial profiling is due to the fact that capitalism oppresses black people.
*head explodes*


Also fucking hip-hop encourages drugs and money and stuff so people feel they have to steal to get that stuff to be cool and rich.
You should check out some old school hip-hop or even modern underground and political MCs. If you look at the evolution of rap and what trends have been nurtured or created in the culture so as to make it what it is today, it becomes pretty clear that "those in charge" have an interest in using it to push consumerism/sexism/etc. on an audience (young black males) that is notoriously resistant to traditional advertising. Rap music and hip hop culture is not originally or inherently self-oppressive to the community it originates from. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Same shit that happened with punk - the insightful acts are marginalized and non-functional drug addicts with "chaos" politics are pushed into the mainstream.


It should be funneled at capitalists who are the masterminds.
I refer you again to the BPP&#39;s 10 Point Program, which seems to fit this requirement. If you haven&#39;t read it, please do and then let us know what your actual points of disagreement are.

If you are only talking only about the N"BPP", then please specify.


"Eoin Dubh"
Have another look at who you are defending.
Again I&#39;m not defending him, I&#39;m just taking a less kneejerk reaction to finding out what his views are.

At the risk of offending Johnny Anarcho, I believe he actually has no fucking clue what he&#39;s talking about right there where he just said "black supremacist", and I&#39;d like to find out for sure in a calm way that respects his viewpoints and gives him a chance to explain them fully. Or to put it more accurately, explore them fully, since that is clearly what he is still in the process of doing.

As for "What the white man needs to realize is that by &#39;intergrating&#39; with us we will never be satisfied and the only solution is for him to pay his debt to us by giving us our own lands, our own property", this is pretty basic black radical "community autonomy" stuff. If you replace "white man" with "capitalist", it wouldn&#39;t be too out of place anywhere on these forums. Also in a lot of black radical lingo, "white man" (as in, "the" white man, not white men) is pretty much interchangeable with "capitalist". I am trying to respect his personal dialogues and vocabularies and in the process let him know that some of his views, or at the least the way they have been expressed, are confusing and can certainly lead one to suspect that he could be a separatist reactionary. But even if he is a "separatist", we should explore that further since many times "separatist" also tends to refer to the concept of economic autonomy for the community rather than the hardline nationalist stance taken by the old NOI. This is especially true in the rank and file of "black separatist/nationalist" movements.

However, if he admits that all he wants is to replicate capitalism on a small scale under 100% black ownership like the NOI, at that point I would say fuck him not because he&#39;s a "racist" but because he&#39;s a cappie.


Other members have been sent to OI for much milder posts.
In that case I&#39;m sure he will be, too.

But hell, I&#39;ve damn near been sent to OI or banned just for saying "Fuck the Leninists".

Which I haven&#39;t said in way too long, so FUCK THE LENINISTS.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Weren&#39;t the BPP the ones who coined the famous term &#39;get whitey&#39;. Besides Johnny Anarcho is down with both.


*head explodes*

fuckin typo. I confused myslef.


You should check out some old school hip-hop or even modern underground and political MCs. If you look at the evolution of rap and what trends have been nurtured or created in the culture so as to make it what it is today, it becomes pretty clear that "those in charge" have an interest in using it to push consumerism/sexism/etc. on an audience (young black males) that is notoriously resistant to traditional advertising. Rap music and hip hop culture is not originally or inherently self-oppressive to the community it originates from. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Same shit that happened with punk - the insightful acts are marginalized and non-functional drug addicts with "chaos" politics are pushed into the mainstream.

I actually listened to rap up until a couple weeks ago when I started seriously becoming more marxist. I realized how fucking empty hip-hop is and how the record companies use rappers as their whores. I just got really bored of it. There are some good ones though among those T-KASH, Dead Prez, Zearle, and SRA. Though all of those guys except Dead Prez are impossible to find music by them.


At the risk of offending Johnny Anarcho, I believe he actually has no fucking clue what he&#39;s talking about right there where he just said "black supremacist"

Wow how the hell did you walk out of that one untouched? He literally said he&#39;s rascist so now you&#39;re pleading for insanity? You should become a lawyer :lol: haha I can just see that&#33;


FUCK THE LENINISTS.

and screw the dillusional anarchists....

[Johnny Anarcho]

You asked about the militants I met, they werent racist seeing as they were talking with whites too. When I said "black-supremacist" I meant it like I said it, in quotation as in, quote "black-supremacist" unquote. The point I was trying to make is that if America can openly take pride in being white then we should be able to do the same in being black. I dont believe in capitalism seeing as to it endangers black people by not allowing them to control their economy. As far as seperatism I mean it economically; I think that we black people, and by black I mean all non-white people, should start keeping our money in our communities under our control. Keep it away from the mainstream American economy which is controlled by the capitalist white power-structure. By doing this we can accumulate the money we get from our jobs and only use it in our communities thus ending any need to steal, sell drugs, prostitute, pimp, join a gang or anyother crime. I also believe that black people need to make a mental and cultural migration back to Africa so we can know our history and our true roots and culture.

[guerillablack]

Johnny Peace brother, i love you to death. I don&#39;t ever come here any more because of the types of ignorant leftists you find in this thread who do not have no knowledge on the black experience or Afrikan history. I&#39;m glad Nachie also posted to school them as well. Because alot of you guys are spreading myths and lies.

"kill whitey"?
I guess COINTELPRO worked.

You won&#39;t learn about black power or afrikan liberation on a predominately white leftist board. Sorry. Just not gonna happen. Some of these guys don&#39;t even think racism still exist. :rolleyes:


Holla at me so we can build.

[Nachie]

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+Jun 11 2006, 05:05 AM--> (LeftyHenry &#064; Jun 11 2006, 05:05 AM)Weren&#39;t the BPP the ones who coined the famous term &#39;get whitey&#39;. Besides Johnny Anarcho is down with both.

[/b]
Do you mean "Kill Whitey"? I don&#39;t think that was from the BPP or that anybody could prove it, but if somebody can, please do. I know they did coin the term "off the pig&#33;" ;)


I actually listened to rap up until a couple weeks ago when I started seriously becoming more marxist.
Why did Marxism turn you off to hip-hop? Just curious, several of the artists you listed are Marxist.


There are some good ones though among those T-KASH, Dead Prez, Zearle, and SRA. Though all of those guys except Dead Prez are impossible to find music by them.
Are you kidding? Zearle has all his songs free to download off his website.


Wow how the hell did you walk out of that one untouched? He literally said he&#39;s rascist so now you&#39;re pleading for insanity? You should become a lawyer :lol: haha I can just see that&#33;
*high five*


and screw the dillusional anarchists....
Only the ones that give me verbal consent.


"Johnny Anarcho"
You asked about the militants I met, they werent racist seeing as they were talking with whites too. When I said "black-supremacist" I meant it like I said it, in quotation as in, quote "black-supremacist" unquote. The point I was trying to make is that if America can openly take pride in being white then we should be able to do the same in being black. I dont believe in capitalism seeing as to it endangers black people by not allowing them to control their economy. As far as seperatism I mean it economically; I think that we black people, and by black I mean all non-white people, should start keeping our money in our communities under our control. Keep it away from the mainstream American economy which is controlled by the capitalist white power-structure. By doing this we can accumulate the money we get from our jobs and only use it in our communities thus ending any need to steal, sell drugs, prostitute, pimp, join a gang or anyother crime. I also believe that black people need to make a mental and cultural migration back to Africa so we can know our history and our true roots and culture.
Shit, sounds good to me :)

[Eoin Dubh]

Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 11 2006, 05:08 AM
I think that we black people, and by black I mean all non-white people, .........

I also believe that black people need to make a mental and cultural migration back to Africa so we can know our history and our true roots and culture.
Reminds me of when Eldridge Cleaver was in exile in Africa and he reported being utterly shocked to be treated with derision as a white American wherever he went.
The bloodlines are -pure- over there. And it was very traumitizing for him to be treated as a white American.

An African from Haiti or an African from Kenya are black. An African American, who certainly is considered by other Americans as black, usually isnt really very black at all.

Certainly this is a legacy of slaveowners having sexual relations with the women enslaved by them.

Look at a picture of Rosa Parks, she has Europeans in her family tree I bet my beard on it&#33;

It aint pretty, but it is true, likely there is white in the heritage of most African Americans.
Dont hate it, embrace it&#33; You are the future as humans migrate from their original continents and fall in love, and make love to other humans, the colour lines which historically have been used to cause division will blur and become redundant and eventually irrelevant.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Why did Marxism turn you off to hip-hop? Just curious, several of the artists you listed are Marxist.

Since hip-hop is superficial and marxism is the truth. The artists I listed are the good ones who I&#39;ll stick with but I mean I used to listen to like 50 cent and TI and Mobb deep and shit and they sang about nothing meaningful.


Are you kidding? Zearle has all his songs free to download off his website.

Yeah Sun Rise Above has that too but it&#39;s not on itunes format. Won&#39;t burn on any CDs so I can only listen to it on my computer and my computer has no sound.


Do you mean "Kill Whitey"? I don&#39;t think that was from the BPP or that anybody could prove it, but if somebody can, please do. I know they did coin the term "off the pig&#33;" ;)


I think I meant get whitey but you probably know more. I was learning it in history and my prof was talking about the BPP and Doves and she brought that term up so since I see no reason for her to lie about something like that, and I generally trust her, I think they did coin that.


You asked about the militants I met, they werent racist seeing as they were talking with whites too. When I said "black-supremacist" I meant it like I said it, in quotation as in, quote "black-supremacist" unquote. The point I was trying to make is that if America can openly take pride in being white then we should be able to do the same in being black. I dont believe in capitalism seeing as to it endangers black people by not allowing them to control their economy. As far as seperatism I mean it economically; I think that we black people, and by black I mean all non-white people, should start keeping our money in our communities under our control. Keep it away from the mainstream American economy which is controlled by the capitalist white power-structure. By doing this we can accumulate the money we get from our jobs and only use it in our communities thus ending any need to steal, sell drugs, prostitute, pimp, join a gang or anyother crime. I also believe that black people need to make a mental and cultural migration back to Africa so we can know our history and our true roots and culture.

If we Whitey communists get to join then that&#39;s fine with me. However I think the chances of capitalism getting overthrown and black&#39;s getting their own enclave are about the same so which ever happens first alright with you....?

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 12:41 AM

Why did Marxism turn you off to hip-hop? Just curious, several of the artists you listed are Marxist.

Since hip-hop is superficial and marxism is the truth. The artists I listed are the good ones who I&#39;ll stick with but I mean I used to listen to like 50 cent and TI and Mobb deep and shit and they sang about nothing meaningful.


Are you kidding? Zearle has all his songs free to download off his website.

Yeah Sun Rise Above has that too but it&#39;s not on itunes format. Won&#39;t burn on any CDs so I can only listen to it on my computer and my computer has no sound.


Do you mean "Kill Whitey"? I don&#39;t think that was from the BPP or that anybody could prove it, but if somebody can, please do. I know they did coin the term "off the pig&#33;" ;)


I think I meant get whitey but you probably know more. I was learning it in history and my prof was talking about the BPP and Doves and she brought that term up so since I see no reason for her to lie about something like that, and I generally trust her, I think they did coin that.


You asked about the militants I met, they werent racist seeing as they were talking with whites too. When I said "black-supremacist" I meant it like I said it, in quotation as in, quote "black-supremacist" unquote. The point I was trying to make is that if America can openly take pride in being white then we should be able to do the same in being black. I dont believe in capitalism seeing as to it endangers black people by not allowing them to control their economy. As far as seperatism I mean it economically; I think that we black people, and by black I mean all non-white people, should start keeping our money in our communities under our control. Keep it away from the mainstream American economy which is controlled by the capitalist white power-structure. By doing this we can accumulate the money we get from our jobs and only use it in our communities thus ending any need to steal, sell drugs, prostitute, pimp, join a gang or anyother crime. I also believe that black people need to make a mental and cultural migration back to Africa so we can know our history and our true roots and culture.

If we Whitey communists get to join then that&#39;s fine with me. However I think the chances of capitalism getting overthrown and black&#39;s getting their own enclave are about the same so which ever happens first alright with you....?
I do hope you know that the term whitey was in prominent usage way before Black Panthers was even formed or thought about being formed.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by Eoin Dubh+Jun 11 2006, 05:31 AM--> (Eoin Dubh @ Jun 11 2006, 05:31 AM)
Johnny [email protected] 11 2006, 05:08 AM
I think that we black people, and by black I mean all non-white people, .........

I also believe that black people need to make a mental and cultural migration back to Africa so we can know our history and our true roots and culture.
Reminds me of when Eldridge Cleaver was in exile in Africa and he reported being utterly shocked to be treated with derision as a white American wherever he went.
The bloodlines are -pure- over there. And it was very traumitizing for him to be treated as a white American.

An African from Haiti or an African from Kenya are black. An African American, who certainly is considered by other Americans as black, usually isnt really very black at all.

Certainly this is a legacy of slaveowners having sexual relations with the women enslaved by them.

Look at a picture of Rosa Parks, she has Europeans in her family tree I bet my beard on it&#33;

It aint pretty, but it is true, likely there is white in the heritage of most African Americans.
Dont hate it, embrace it&#33; You are the future as humans migrate from their original continents and fall in love, and make love to other humans, the colour lines which historically have been used to cause division will blur and become redundant and eventually irrelevant. [/b]
I mean that blacks should start studying and learning more about the motherland instead of being force fed all this junk about European and American white history.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Look everyone, in a blatant personal attack Eoin Dubh has changed his sig to make me look bad. Now do you see what I was talking about with White Reactionism?

[Eoin Dubh]

Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 11 2006, 05:59 AM

I mean that blacks should start studying and learning more about the motherland instead of being force fed all this junk about European and American white history.
Sure learn all you can about Africa Pre and Post colonial days.

Why not learn about Europe , if indeed like Huey Newton and Malcolm X, you may have European heritage as well as African?

American history is not exclusively white history, please pick up a copy of Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee, a history of aboriginal Americans.

Keep an open mind with wonder, dont shut it through belief.

Black History month is a start, and although I am not an American high school student, I have a hard time believing that all you are taught about is some dead old white guys?&#33; Really, come on now.

[Eoin Dubh]

Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 11 2006, 06:02 AM
Look everyone, in a blatant personal attack Eoin Dubh has changed his sig to make me look bad. Now do you see what I was talking about with White Reactionism?
OK hold on a sec.

You make yourself look bad by saying such crap.

It bugs you that much, eh? Ok I can take it out.

You are getting an easy ride here, and should watch what you say as others have been restricted for a lot less than what you have stated already.

You are new here, it is not unusual to quote other members in your sig.

;) chill.

P.S. You push some shit which I think is racist, I will react. Thats what you think white reaction is ? Lol

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by Eoin Dubh+Jun 11 2006, 01:12 AM--> (Eoin Dubh @ Jun 11 2006, 01:12 AM)
Johnny [email protected] 11 2006, 05:59 AM

I mean that blacks should start studying and learning more about the motherland instead of being force fed all this junk about European and American white history.
Sure learn all you can about Africa Pre and Post colonial days.

Why not learn about Europe , if indeed like Huey Newton and Malcolm X, you may have European heritage as well as African?

American history is not exclusively white history, please pick up a copy of Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee, a history of aboriginal Americans.

Keep an open mind with wonder, dont shut it through belief.

Black History month is a start, and although I am not an American high school student, I have a hard time believing that all you are taught about is some dead old white guys?&#33; Really, come on now. [/b]
Are you serious or are you joking. Do you really believe the things you write? Of course minorities played a part in American history this is what the brother is saying he is after&#33; However the school curriculum of American History somehow misplaces these stories in their pages&#33; I never learned about Malcolm X, Black Panthers, NOI, Brown Berets, or any black/brown power movements in elementary school or highschool. If you did, thats great. But odd how predominately black/brown schools don&#39;t learn about those liberation movements. <_<

[Eoin Dubh]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 06:30 AM
Are you serious or are you joking. Do you really believe the things you write? Of course minorities played a part in American history this is what the brother is saying he is after&#33; However the school curriculum of American History somehow misplaces these stories in their pages&#33; I never learned about Malcolm X, Black Panthers, NOI, Brown Berets, or any black/brown power movements in elementary school or highschool. If you did, thats great. But odd how predominately black/brown schools don&#39;t learn about those liberation movements. <_<
Settle down Beavis.

Oftentimes a reader may miss the gist of a post as we are not speaking in person. If you are confused re-read the post.

Now the reason you did not learn about those people and groups is the same reason why you were not instructed about the history of the labour movement, turn of the century anarchism, womens suffrage , the triangle shirtwaist fire, the Centralia massacre, the trail of tears and so on, etc.

And no that reason isnt whitey.

It is Capitalism.

The reason we are all here, supposedly working together to overcome.

Right?

[bcbm]

Um, just to interject for a moment, I&#39;m pretty sure the term "whitey" refers to the white power structure, the racist bosses, not the average joe on the street. I&#39;m down for killin&#39; whitey.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by Eoin Dubh+Jun 11 2006, 06:52 AM--> (Eoin Dubh @ Jun 11 2006, 06:52 AM)
[email protected] 11 2006, 06:30 AM
Are you serious or are you joking. Do you really believe the things you write? Of course minorities played a part in American history this is what the brother is saying he is after&#33; However the school curriculum of American History somehow misplaces these stories in their pages&#33; I never learned about Malcolm X, Black Panthers, NOI, Brown Berets, or any black/brown power movements in elementary school or highschool. If you did, thats great. But odd how predominately black/brown schools don&#39;t learn about those liberation movements. <_<
Settle down Beavis.

Oftentimes a reader may miss the gist of a post as we are not speaking in person. If you are confused re-read the post.

Now the reason you did not learn about those people and groups is the same reason why you were not instructed about the history of the labour movement, turn of the century anarchism, womens suffrage , the triangle shirtwaist fire, the Centralia massacre, the trail of tears and so on, etc.

And no that reason isnt whitey.

It is Capitalism.

The reason we are all here, supposedly working together to overcome.

Right? [/b]
Then why is it we learn about white freedom movements and not black ones, why do we have to hear so much about Roosevelt but nothing about X? I&#39;ll aggree that we&#39;re all here to fight capitalism but if youre stuck in racism without knowing it then how do you expect to fight cappies.

[Eoin Dubh]

Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 11 2006, 07:10 AM

Then why is it we learn about white freedom movements and not black ones, why do we have to hear so much about Roosevelt but nothing about X? I&#39;ll aggree that we&#39;re all here to fight capitalism but if youre stuck in racism without knowing it then how do you expect to fight cappies.
Hm fair enough.
What do you mean by white freedom movements?

I think that Malcolm was pretty bang on, but only in that all too brief period in the last 2 years of his life after he returned from Mecca.
The man he was previous to that, I dont have much use for.
Fighting racism is an intrinsic part of fighting Capitalism as it is used as a weapon to divide us from utilizing our collective might to crush those fat cats who drink our blood.
Roosevelt, even with his New Deal, is safe.
Malcolm X, before or after Mecca, is not.

(Eleanor Roosevelt wasnt so bad...she may have been the original riot grrrll&#33;Lol)

[Johnny Anarcho]

How is Malcolm not safe?

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 11 2006, 05:59 AM
I mean that blacks should start studying and learning more about the motherland instead of being force fed all this junk about European and American white history.





You said exactly that
What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man.

YOU clearly identified the white man as your enemy, and when I said that you identify the white man as your enemy, you accused me of &#39;&#39;White Reactionism".
You accused me of putting specific words in your mouth, while you said these specific words WITH YOUR OWN MOUTH.

You said
We may have been taken off the fields but we werent liberated. We never got our promised reperations, WE WERE NEVER PROTECTED FROM LYNCHING, we were never given the same living conditions or value as human beings like the whites had.

What are you talking about? YOU WERE NEVER PROTECTED FROM LYNCHING??????? I live far away from USA, so I may be mistaken.... but I ask you; aren&#39;t you now protected from lynching? Are the white people who lynch black ones punished more lighty than the blacks who lynch whites? I don&#39;t think so.... Please if you want to accuse the white people, be sure that you accuse them for the right reasons.

You said
&#39;&#39;Malcolm X knew this and he was shot, MLK knew it and spoke out on Vietnam and he was shot. Before that Marcus Garvey knew it and he "disappeared". This is no democracy, this is hypocracy. &#39;&#39;

If I am not mistaken, Malcolm X was shot by the Nation of Islam. Your effort to accuse the " white democracy" for the death of Malcolm X is just another sign of your "the-white-man-is-responsible-for-everything" mentality. Accuse the white man for slavery, for racism, for the death of MLK etc, but please do not accuse him for the death of Malcolm X.

You said
&#39;&#39;Yeah its the capitalists fault but I dont think its coincidence that the majority of rich people are white. &#39;&#39;

In this sentence you clearly imply that white people are INNATELY more greedy and more oppressive than non-whites, therefore you imply that non-whites are INNATELY morally superior to whites. If you believe such a thing, you do not have any reason to be in this forum. I am not saying that you do not have the right to believe in the moral inferiority of the white people. But this is a forum about RACIAL EQUALITY and if you do not believe in racial equality, you do not have a place in here. In the exact same way if you do not believe in Christianity, you do not have a place in a Christian forum, if you do not believe in Islam, you do not have a place in an Islamic forum etc.


You said
I mean that blacks should start studying and learning more about the motherland instead of being force fed all this junk about European and American white history.

First of all, as I said, I live far away from USA, but if I am not mistaken nowadays there is a Black History Month and other lessons about African American History.
Secondly, thank you for calling our white history "junk". If we called your black history " junk", then we would be evil racists, but if you call our history "junk&#39;&#39;, then there is no problem. Members of RevLeft, if you want to accept as your comrade a person who calls white history &#39;&#39;junk&#39;&#39;, you have the right to do so. Personally, I do not consider my race as superior to other races. But I am not self-hating enough to accept that my race is inferior to other races, or that the history of my race is inferior to the history of other races.

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by adenoid hynkel+Jun 11 2006, 08:53 AM--> (adenoid hynkel @ Jun 11 2006, 08:53 AM)
Johnny [email protected] 11 2006, 05:59 AM
I mean that blacks should start studying and learning more about the motherland instead of being force fed all this junk about European and American white history.





You said exactly that
What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man.

YOU clearly identified the white man as your enemy, and when I said that you identify the white man as your enemy, you accused me of &#39;&#39;White Reactionism".
You accused me of putting specific words in your mouth, while you said these specific words WITH YOUR OWN MOUTH.

You said
We may have been taken off the fields but we werent liberated. We never got our promised reperations, WE WERE NEVER PROTECTED FROM LYNCHING, we were never given the same living conditions or value as human beings like the whites had.

What are you talking about? YOU WERE NEVER PROTECTED FROM LYNCHING??????? I live far away from USA, so I may be mistaken.... but I ask you; aren&#39;t you now protected from lynching? Are the white people who lynch black ones punished more lighty than the blacks who lynch whites? I don&#39;t think so.... Please if you want to accuse the white people, be sure that you accuse them for the right reasons.

You said
&#39;&#39;Malcolm X knew this and he was shot, MLK knew it and spoke out on Vietnam and he was shot. Before that Marcus Garvey knew it and he "disappeared". This is no democracy, this is hypocracy. &#39;&#39;

If I am not mistaken, Malcolm X was shot by the Nation of Islam. Your effort to accuse the " white democracy" for the death of Malcolm X is just another sign of your "the-white-man-is-responsible-for-everything" mentality. Accuse the white man for slavery, for racism, for the death of MLK etc, but please do not accuse him for the death of Malcolm X.

You said
&#39;&#39;Yeah its the capitalists fault but I dont think its coincidence that the majority of rich people are white. &#39;&#39;

In this sentence you clearly imply that white people are INNATELY more greedy and more oppressive than non-whites, therefore you imply that non-whites are INNATELY morally superior to whites. If you believe such a thing, you do not have any reason to be in this forum. I am not saying that you do not have the right to believe in the moral inferiority of the white people. But this is a forum about RACIAL EQUALITY and if you do not believe in racial equality, you do not have a place in here. In the exact same way if you do not believe in Christianity, you do not have a place in a Christian forum, if you do not believe in Islam, you do not have a place in an Islamic forum etc.


You said
I mean that blacks should start studying and learning more about the motherland instead of being force fed all this junk about European and American white history.

First of all, as I said, I live far away from USA, but if I am not mistaken nowadays there is a Black History Month and other lessons about African American History.
Secondly, thank you for calling our white history "junk". If we called your black history " junk", then we would be evil racists, but if you call our history "junk&#39;&#39;, then there is no problem. Members of RevLeft, if you want to accept as your comrade a person who calls white history &#39;&#39;junk&#39;&#39;, you have the right to do so. Personally, I do not consider my race as superior to other races. But I am not self-hating enough to accept that my race is inferior to other races, or that the history of my race is inferior to the history of other races. [/b]
Your hell-bent on getting me banned arent you, Hynkel. Another example of White Reactionism but in another form. This time being that the white man doesnt like whats being said and tries to twist the words. It wont work. When I sais we were never protected from lynching I was discussing the pre-Civil War era. Malcolm X was assassinated by the CIA, they had motives to and I know the Nation of Islam isnt organized for that and they&#39;d never do it even if they were. I never said anyone was superior to anyone else so youre just being reactionary, my point was that the white power-structure is fueled by capitalism and capitalism is fueled by the white power-structure in America and beyond.

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by Johnny Anarcho+Jun 11 2006, 09:06 AM--> (Johnny Anarcho @ Jun 11 2006, 09:06 AM)
Originally posted by adenoid [email protected] 11 2006, 08:53 AM

Johnny [email protected] 11 2006, 05:59 AM
I mean that blacks should start studying and learning more about the motherland instead of being force fed all this junk about European and American white history.





You said exactly that
What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man.

YOU clearly identified the white man as your enemy, and when I said that you identify the white man as your enemy, you accused me of &#39;&#39;White Reactionism".
You accused me of putting specific words in your mouth, while you said these specific words WITH YOUR OWN MOUTH.

You said
We may have been taken off the fields but we werent liberated. We never got our promised reperations, WE WERE NEVER PROTECTED FROM LYNCHING, we were never given the same living conditions or value as human beings like the whites had.

What are you talking about? YOU WERE NEVER PROTECTED FROM LYNCHING??????? I live far away from USA, so I may be mistaken.... but I ask you; aren&#39;t you now protected from lynching? Are the white people who lynch black ones punished more lighty than the blacks who lynch whites? I don&#39;t think so.... Please if you want to accuse the white people, be sure that you accuse them for the right reasons.

You said
&#39;&#39;Malcolm X knew this and he was shot, MLK knew it and spoke out on Vietnam and he was shot. Before that Marcus Garvey knew it and he "disappeared". This is no democracy, this is hypocracy. &#39;&#39;

If I am not mistaken, Malcolm X was shot by the Nation of Islam. Your effort to accuse the " white democracy" for the death of Malcolm X is just another sign of your "the-white-man-is-responsible-for-everything" mentality. Accuse the white man for slavery, for racism, for the death of MLK etc, but please do not accuse him for the death of Malcolm X.

You said
&#39;&#39;Yeah its the capitalists fault but I dont think its coincidence that the majority of rich people are white. &#39;&#39;

In this sentence you clearly imply that white people are INNATELY more greedy and more oppressive than non-whites, therefore you imply that non-whites are INNATELY morally superior to whites. If you believe such a thing, you do not have any reason to be in this forum. I am not saying that you do not have the right to believe in the moral inferiority of the white people. But this is a forum about RACIAL EQUALITY and if you do not believe in racial equality, you do not have a place in here. In the exact same way if you do not believe in Christianity, you do not have a place in a Christian forum, if you do not believe in Islam, you do not have a place in an Islamic forum etc.


You said
I mean that blacks should start studying and learning more about the motherland instead of being force fed all this junk about European and American white history.

First of all, as I said, I live far away from USA, but if I am not mistaken nowadays there is a Black History Month and other lessons about African American History.
Secondly, thank you for calling our white history "junk". If we called your black history " junk", then we would be evil racists, but if you call our history "junk&#39;&#39;, then there is no problem. Members of RevLeft, if you want to accept as your comrade a person who calls white history &#39;&#39;junk&#39;&#39;, you have the right to do so. Personally, I do not consider my race as superior to other races. But I am not self-hating enough to accept that my race is inferior to other races, or that the history of my race is inferior to the history of other races.
Your hell-bent on getting me banned arent you, Hynkel. Another example of White Reactionism but in another form. This time being that the white man doesnt like whats being said and tries to twist the words. It wont work. When I sais we were never protected from lynching I was discussing the pre-Civil War era. Malcolm X was assassinated by the CIA, they had motives to and I know the Nation of Islam isnt organized for that and they&#39;d never do it even if they were. I never said anyone was superior to anyone else so youre just being reactionary, my point was that the white power-structure is fueled by capitalism and capitalism is fueled by the white power-structure in America and beyond. [/b]
I think that I presented my arguments in a clear way and you did not even care to answer, you just repeated your baseless accusations of " White reactionism&#39;&#39; and &#39;&#39;twisting your words".

Anyway another question; Who killed Malcolm X? I have watched the film "Malcolm X&#39;&#39; by Spike Lee. The film clearly indicated that he was killed by the Nation of Islam..... But Johnny Anarcho says that he was killed by the CIA. Can anybody give me more details about his death? Do you believe that he was killed by the NOI or by the CIA?

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 11 2006, 09:06 AM
johnny Anarcho
Malcolm X was assassinated by the CIA, they had motives to and I know the Nation of Islam isnt organized for that AND THE&#39;D NEVER DO IT EVEN IF THEY WERE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_x

I came along this in Wikipedia;
Tensions increased between Malcolm and the Nation of Islam. It was alleged that orders were given by leaders of the Nation of Islam to kill Malcolm; in The Autobiography of Malcolm X, he says that as early as 1963, a member of the Seventh Temple confessed to him having received orders from the Nation of Islam to kill him.

It seems that Malcolm X believed that the Nation of Islam wanted to kill him and he even wrote it down in his autobiography.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by Red Polak+Jun 10 2006, 12:36 AM--> (Red Polak @ Jun 10 2006, 12:36 AM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 12:31 AM
Well if my grandfather had whip lashes from a white &#39;master&#39;, I&#39;d be pissed to.

Blacks owned slaves, whites owned slaves, arabs owned slaves (I&#39;m told on good information that arabs were actually the worst owners), everyone owned slaves.

I&#39;m white, I&#39;ve never owned a slave and therefore I see no reason why any black person should have a problem with me just because of the fact that other people of my race owned slaves a couple of hundred years ago.

I&#39;m also Polish, should I therefore hate all Germans because of WW2?

No offence mate, but it&#39;s a ridiculous argument. Everyone on earth needs to apologize to everyone else on earth for one thing or another. We should just call it quits and get on with life. [/b]
Thats some shit only a white person would say to downplay the slavery issue in america.

When anyone in persia or the mediterranean had slaves it was debt slavery....not " get your black ass on the boat cause your 3/4 a human being shit.
White folks invented that shit.......dont even try to play it off.

[Eoin Dubh]

Originally posted by Johnny [email protected] 11 2006, 08:01 AM
How is Malcolm not safe?
Malcolm was a guy who took no shit before or after his trip to Mecca, which was his turning point from an ideology such as yours perhaps, to one geared towards Socialism, he was not a person to go quietly.

Before or after Mecca, Malcolm X had the ability to turn sheep into wolves.

Thats why he was not "safe".

:hammer:

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by Eoin Dubh+Jun 11 2006, 10:21 AM--> (Eoin Dubh @ Jun 11 2006, 10:21 AM)
Johnny [email protected] 11 2006, 08:01 AM
How is Malcolm not safe?
Malcolm was a guy who took no shit before or after his trip to Mecca, which was his turning point from an ideology such as yours perhaps, to one geared towards Socialism, he was not a person to go quietly.

Before or after Mecca, Malcolm X had the ability to turn sheep into wolves.

Thats why he was not "safe".

:hammer: [/b]
Thats a good thing, I&#39;m hoping to go to Mecca by the way. Hopefully I&#39;ll get out of it what he did.

[Eoin Dubh]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 10:16 AM

Thats some shit only a white person would say to downplay the slavery issue in america.

.

In the interest of unity, time to lock the thread?
:unsure:

[Johnny Anarcho]

Originally posted by Eoin Dubh+Jun 11 2006, 10:30 AM--> (Eoin Dubh @ Jun 11 2006, 10:30 AM)
[email protected] 11 2006, 10:16 AM

Thats some shit only a white person would say to downplay the slavery issue in america.

.

In the interest of unity, time to lock the thread?
:unsure: [/b]
No, I think its let out alot of racial feling we have all kept bottled up and should continue discussing if possible.

[Red Polak]

yo Johnny Anarcho,

I got you some sites which as a black supremacist I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll love mate:

http://www.destee.com/forums/

http://www.blackhistoryjohnmoore.bravehost.com/

http://www.blackrefer.com/nationalism.html


http://www.afgen.com/nationalism.html

quote ffom that last one:
"Black Nationalism, also known as black separatism, is a complex set of beliefs emphasizing the need for the cultural, political, and economic separation of African Americans from white society."


Shame you&#39;re not white eh? You could run off to stormfront&#33; :rolleyes:

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 11:16 AM
Thats some shit only a white person would say to downplay the slavery issue in america.

When anyone in persia or the mediterranean had slaves it was debt slavery....not " get your black ass on the boat cause your 3/4 a human being shit.
White folks invented that shit.......dont even try to play it off.
yeah and only a black person would up-play the results.


And no it wasn&#39;t a stupid argument; still no one has answered my question - as a Pole should I hate all Germans, Austrians and Russians for their attacks on my nation over the centuries? Maybe add the US and UK to the hate mix as well for not doing enough during WW2?


No, that would be utterly stupid. People need to get over the guilt complex. :angry:


Also whites didn&#39;t invent that kind of slavery - ever read the koran? Says it&#39;s quite ok to enslave nations you conquer.
Greeks did it to other Greeks
Persians tried to do it to Greeks
Greeks did it to Persians
Romans did it.

C&#39;mon Italians, apologize to me for enslaving the Sarmatians.

[Hiero]

I think people should use the terms White Nation, Black Nation, Indigenous nation etc.

As communist we should understand there is national oppression, the white nation oppresses the black nation. The White nation oppresses the indigenous nation. If you are apart of the white nation that means your position is better because of national oppression. This is the way communist should talk.

The NOI, doesn&#39;t seem to talk about this. They try to refer to race make up, and religious rhetoric to explain why blacks were and are oppressed.

The former Black Panther Party talked like this, and they have criticised the NBPP. Which doesn&#39;t leave much trust for the NBPP.

The NOI and going by what the former leaders of the BPP say about NBPP they do not have a correct analysis of national oppression. NOI and NBPP shouldn&#39;t be off grounds to criticism due to some form of cultural relativism, which some people in this thread resort to using.


http://www.blackpanther.org/newsalert.htm

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by Nachie+Jun 11 2006, 05:43 AM--> (Nachie &#064; Jun 11 2006, 05:43 AM)
3. learning? He asked about the black panthers, was told they are racist, admitted they are racist and then put a link to them in his signature&#33;
The whole point of this thread is that he had been in some sort of contact with the NBPP. It&#39;s entirely possible that the militants he has spoken to are not racist at all, as not everyone in the NBPP is. On this, too I would like to hear more from Mr. Anarcho.[/b]

So what if the few he&#39;s spoken to don&#39;t outwardly show they&#39;re racist?

Of course they&#39;re not going to start spewing racist crap from day one, they&#39;ll do it overtime and slowly get him into their way of thinking.


Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 05:43 AM

er...and arguably, many neo-nazis are pretty left wing economically.
Who the hell would argue that? Social Democrats?

Ever heard of the British National Party?

Many of their economic policies are rather left.


Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 05:43 AM

Thing is, nor has Johnny Anarcho been on the receiving end of the racism during the slavery of blacks in America.
What world do you live in where racism was magically abolished when slavery was? Pretend slavery never even happened. Just look at how things are right now. Still pretty fuckin&#39; racist, eh?

yeah things are still racist, both racist to blacks and to whites (and any other race for that matter). But I don&#39;t think black people going on about "killing the white man" being particularly to the situation.

I&#39;d love to post a link to this thread on Stormfront and see how they take the idea that he wants racial seperation. Racial seperation and no mixed-race relationships amounts to the Numemberg Race Laws&#33; (fuck godwin&#39;s law)


Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 05:43 AM

"non-white people all over the world for centuries."

er what?
I think that statement&#39;s meaning is pretty clear. Europeans are pretty much at the top of the pile in terms of systematic genocide against people perceived as being of a different race.

Why, it&#39;s almost like their entire system is founded on it, or something. :unsure:

Pol Pot?
The muslim massacre of the Armenians?
All the wars in South America?



Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 05:43 AM

You don&#39;t think that whites can suffer racism too?
Can I recommend a book called How the Irish Became White? Excellent read, I think you&#39;d find it interesting.

What the whole "no dogs, no blacks, no irish" issue?

I already know.



[email protected] 11 2006, 05:43 AM
Which I haven&#39;t said in way too long, so FUCK THE LENINISTS.

Don&#39;t fuck the leninists, they&#39;re cool. :P
drgbrrdgerdgvd

[Hiero]

Greeks did it to other Greeks
Persians tried to do it to Greeks
Greeks did it to Persians
Romans did it.

C&#39;mon Italians, apologize to me for enslaving the Sarmatians

You can&#39;t compare ancient history with modern history. Also as already explained there are various nations and ethnicities which are still explioted.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by white polak+--> (white polak)Blacks owned slaves, whites owned slaves, arabs owned slaves (I&#39;m told on good information that arabs were actually the worst owners), everyone owned slaves.[/b]

:lol: &#39;Good information&#39;? I suppose ANY information that makes the &#39;white race&#39; look better to you is &#39;good information&#39;. The slave system in the islamic empire was, whilst fucked - it was a system of slavery - was objectively &#39;better&#39; (as far as slavery goes) for slaves than the system in place in the Americas (least of all &#39;the South&#39;). Know many southern slaves who became emperors or governors?



Originally posted by Johnny Anarcho+--> (Johnny Anarcho)
We need to start keeping our dollars in our own communities; the Jews, Irish, and other minorities did it when they came to America and still do. This is what will empower us and weaken the white man.[/b]

Not really. &#39;Keeping&#39; the &#39;dollars&#39; in your community will ultimately only empower the bourgeoisie and pettty-bourgeoisie of your community. Enriching Black business owners is not equivalent to enriching the Black community itself. The people of the community will still be exploited AT WORK, in the Black community by Black business owners as wage slaves. The answer to the economic exploitaiton of Black communities or any community is not &#39;community&#39; capitalism.


Originally posted by white polak

sure, whites had black slaves (and arabs had slaves and blacks had slaves) but which racial group actually stopped slavery?

whites.

Er, what are you trying to say? Black peoples should just shut up and be grateful because europeans &#39;abolished&#39; slavery after they got bored with it? How does dropping formal slavery after 400 years of exploitation and murder give europeans any &#39;moral&#39; credibility on the issue at all?

You sound like ex-(apartheid) South African president FW de Klerk, who said that Black South Africans should be grateful that the white minority handed over power&#33;&#33;&#33;

Desmond Tutu put de Klerk in his place:

“By and large, the white community does not seem to have shown an appreciation for the incredible magnanimity of those who were the major victims of a system from which they [the whites] benefited so much,”


Originally posted by white polak

So why are whites on the receiving end of all the hate? It&#39;s ridiculous.

The past and present, are just two examples. If you don&#39;t &#39;get it&#39;, i suggest you read more history and open your eyes.


Originally posted by LeftyHenry

:lol: I lol&#39;d when you said the black panthers weren&#39;t rascist. Saying the black panthers aren&#39;t rascist is like saying Wal-Mart pays there workers high wages. It&#39;s what they build their platform on. "get whitey" doesn&#39;t mean get to be friends with him, it means kill him&#33;

Who fed you this crap? Your high school history teacher? Do some actual reading or research. The BPP was NOT a racist organisation, they worked with non-black organisations, much more than probably any white-dominated organisations of the period, yet these groups are not labelled as &#39;racists&#39; - but a group that challenged the racism and power structure of US society (including the police, politicans and bourgeoisie), dangerous dangerous, is marginalised - suprise suprise - by predominantly white middle class history teachers, politicans etc.


Originally posted by LeftyHenry

They should not blame the white man. They should blame capitalism and how it&#39;s rigged against the black man to stop him from succeeding. They should encourage white communists and socialists to join their cause and fight for what they fight for. Rascism and nationalism gets us nowhere. unity does.

Ironically, these are all things that the BPP did, oops.


Originally posted by white polak
1. So there&#39;s one set of rules for whites and another for blacks?

2. black nationalism is, in the same way as white nationalism, racist.

3. learning? He asked about the black panthers, was told they are racist, admitted they are racist and then put a link to them in his signature&#33;

&


Originally posted by white polak
But I do feel it&#39;s ridiculous what he&#39;s saying and being defended about because he&#39;s black so he has a ligitimate reason to say such things, whereas I&#39;ve just been accused of racism elsewhere on the forum for a post condeming "religious types" in Irak.

I don&#39;t like the whole double standards thing.

Saying you&#39;re proud to be Black is the same as saying you&#39;re proud to be gay, or proud to be working class- it is slogan of empowerment for opressed peoples.

Being WC, gay or Black is portrayed as a negative in &#39;western&#39; society, because WC peoples are &#39;inferior&#39; to the &#39;middle class&#39;, they&#39;re rough, dirty, uneducated/ignorant, rude- criminal. Many of these traits are all assigned to black peoples, particularly Black men, they&#39;re brutish-strong-sexually aggressive-scary-violent- but also uneducated/ignorant and criminal. Gay peoples are weak, effeminate, vain and so forth.

That is, these terms are imbued heavily with negative connotations by &#39;middle class&#39; white hetero-normative &#39;society&#39;- being WC, being Black, being gay means you&#39;re not as &#39;good&#39; -you&#39;re not &#39;worth&#39; as much as a human being- you&#39;re inferior- black pride, WC pride and gay pride is about challenging these assertions/norms of inferiority and showing that not only are we not &#39;weak&#39;, or &#39;criminal&#39;, or ignorant, but that we&#39;re strong, intelligent, we&#39;re just as &#39;good&#39; as anyone else- and that these negative stereotypes are bullshit- that we&#39;re above them- it is tool of self-empowerment in a context of immense social and economic oppression. A way to fight the internalisation of these stereotypes, so we don&#39;t have WC kids, Black kids, gay kids growing up thinking that they&#39;re inferior, they&#39;re weak, dumb- thinking that they&#39;re worthless- they need to see their strength- their intelligence - their worth.

It is in the end a means to unify and strengthen opressed peoples- so we can smash these stereotypes and the society that creates them. This is the role that black nationalism, the BBP (the former and the latter are not synonymous), and so forth have played for Black populations.



Originally posted by white polak
er...and arguably, many neo-nazis are pretty left wing economically.

Coming from someone who rigourously defends the notion of a &#39;white race&#39;, racial homogenity and so forth, such rubbish is not suprising.



Originally posted by white polak
But really, you know that Brits were enslaved by muslims in the 15th (???) century? They went to Britain by sea and then landed and captured the people and took them back to their lands.

What are your sources on this?

And as far this &#39;white people were slaves too&#39; argument goes, it smacks of &#39;Hey white people were oppressed as a race too, so we&#39;re all even&#33; - and is a common argument amongst white supremacists, who LOVE to point out whenever they can, examples of white people being oppressed by African, Asian peoples and so forth.


Originally posted by LeftyHenry
capitalism isn&#39;t reponsible for racial profiling. It&#39;s responsible for the oppression of the black community. Racial profiling is due to the fact that capitalism oppresses black people. Black people than &#39;steal&#39; to feed themselves. Cops stereotype. It&#39;s basically like that. Also fucking hip-hop encourages drugs and money and stuff so people feel they have to steal to get that stuff to be cool and rich. It&#39;s a vicious cycle and earlier in this thread I said I can understand where the hate comes from but it shouldn&#39;t be funneled at me because I tan lighter than you&#33; It should be funneled at capitalists who are the masterminds. Ever heard of the KKK? They hate because of the color of a man&#39;s skin. See the similarities between the BP and them?

Whilst i agree with the essence of what you&#39;re saying, it&#39;s not that simple. Racism as a phenomenon (particulary white racism, and also racism on &#39;the left&#39;) needs to be tackled. You can&#39;t just sideline the issue as being caused by capitalism - racism existed before the emergence of modern capitalism, as a system though, capitalism does perpetutate racist ideas - but to blame capitalism for racism, whilst not looking critically at people, society itself, suggests that once capitalism is abolished racism should just magically fade away.

Social prejudices need to met head on, full force, yes capitalism&#39;s role in enforcing class divisions that perpetuate inequality and racism need to be addressed, but the role played by every-day people, the media, government, culture, etc. need to addressed as well otherwise it&#39;s a copout.


[email protected]
Weren&#39;t the BPP the ones who coined the famous term &#39;get whitey&#39;.

No, that&#39;s absurd.


white polak
yeah things are still racist, both racist to blacks and to whites (and any other race for that matter).

Please explain how &#39;things are still racist to whites&#39;.

[The Grey Blur]

You guys seems to have become stuck on early Malcolm X rhetoric

You know he developed his ideas later on...

"I am not a racist.... In the past I permitted myself to be used...to make sweeping indictments of all white people, the entire white race and these generalizations have caused injuries to some whites who perhaps did not deserve to be hurt. Because of the spiritual enlightenment which I was blessed to receive as a result of my recent pilgrimage to the Holy city of Mecca, I no longer subscribe to sweeping indictments of any one race. I am now striving to live the life of a true...Muslim. I must repeat that I am not a racist nor do I subscribe to the tenants of racism. I can state in all sincerity that I wish nothing but freedom, justice and equality, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all people."

Yes, America is still primarily a racist nation but if you reject white comrades then you are as guilty of racial prejudice as the "white man" you hate so much

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 11 2006, 10:07 PM

You guys seems to have become stuck on early Malcolm X rhetoric

You know he developed his ideas later on...

"I am not a racist.... In the past I permitted myself to be used...to make sweeping indictments of all white people, the entire white race and these generalizations have caused injuries to some whites who perhaps did not deserve to be hurt. Because of the spiritual enlightenment which I was blessed to receive as a result of my recent pilgrimage to the Holy city of Mecca, I no longer subscribe to sweeping indictments of any one race. I am now striving to live the life of a true...Muslim. I must repeat that I am not a racist nor do I subscribe to the tenants of racism. I can state in all sincerity that I wish nothing but freedom, justice and equality, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all people."

Yes, America is still primarily a racist nation but if you reject white comrades then you are as guilty of racial prejudice as the "white man" you hate so much
I think Malcolm X in his later years still made many mistakes. For instance he said that he can find friends with white liberals. He was better that he realised that you can have comrades and freinds from different races, but that doesn&#39;t mean everyone. You can only have comrades with thoosewho are ideological the same. Malcolm X had real comrades, in true communist, and other revolutionaries, but we can&#39;t seriously believe that White Liberals can stick to their word. Malcolm X deserves criticism in both "racist" and "non-racist" periods of his life.

[Red Polak]

oh that&#39;s a good idea, call me, who&#39;s been consistently arguing against racial seperation, a white supremacist. ffs.


Originally posted by Black Dagger+Jun 11 2006, 11:58 AM--> (Black Dagger &#064; Jun 11 2006, 11:58 AM)
Originally posted by white polak+--> (white polak)Blacks owned slaves, whites owned slaves, arabs owned slaves (I&#39;m told on good information that arabs were actually the worst owners), everyone owned slaves.[/b]

:lol: &#39;Good information&#39;? I suppose ANY information that makes the &#39;white race&#39; look better to you is &#39;good information&#39;. The slave system in the islamic empire was, whilst fucked - it was a system of slavery - was objectively &#39;better&#39; (as far as slavery goes) for slaves than the system in place in the Americas (least of all &#39;the South&#39;). Know many southern slaves who became emperors or governors?[/b]

Good as in good quality, not good as in pleasing.

http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa040201a.htm

"By the time of the Ottoman Empire, the majority of slaves were obtained by raiding in Africa. Russian expansion had put an end to the source of "exceptionally beautiful" female and "brave" male slaves from the Caucasians -- the women were highly prised in the harem, the men in the military."


No I don&#39;t know any southern slaves who became emperors or governors, but then I don&#39;t know any southern Americans who became emperors or governors either.

How interesting - Islamic overloads not only enslaving whites but also Africans&#33;


Originally posted by Black Dagger+Jun 11 2006, 11:58 AM--> (Black Dagger &#064; Jun 11 2006, 11:58 AM)
Originally posted by white polak

sure, whites had black slaves (and arabs had slaves and blacks had slaves) but which racial group actually stopped slavery?

whites.

Er, what are you trying to say? Black peoples should just shut up and be grateful because europeans &#39;abolished&#39; slavery after they got bored with it? How does dropping formal slavery after 400 years of exploitation and murder give europeans any &#39;moral&#39; credibility on the issue at all?[/b]

For the simple reason that whites stopped ALL slavery, not just enslavement by whites.

I&#39;m not asking for thanks for it, I just think a little less on the hate would be nice.


Originally posted by Black [email protected] 11 2006, 11:58 AM

white polak

So why are whites on the receiving end of all the hate? It&#39;s ridiculous.

The past and present, are just two examples. If you don&#39;t &#39;get it&#39;, i suggest you read more history and open your eyes.

Ever heard the phrase "get over it"?


Originally posted by Black [email protected] 11 2006, 11:58 AM
Saying you&#39;re proud to be Black is the same as saying you&#39;re proud to be gay, or proud to be working class- it is slogan of empowerment for opressed peoples.

Being WC, gay or Black is portrayed as a negative in &#39;western&#39; society, because WC peoples are &#39;inferior&#39; to the &#39;middle class&#39;, they&#39;re rough, dirty, uneducated/ignorant, rude- criminal. Many of these traits are all assigned to black peoples, particularly Black men, they&#39;re brutish-strong-sexually aggressive-scary-violent- but also uneducated/ignorant and criminal. Gay peoples are weak, effeminate, vain and so forth.

That is, these terms are imbued heavily with negative connotations by &#39;middle class&#39; white hetero-normative &#39;society&#39;- being WC, being Black, being gay means you&#39;re not as &#39;good&#39; -you&#39;re not &#39;worth&#39; as much as a human being- you&#39;re inferior- black pride, WC pride and gay pride is about challenging these assertions/norms of inferiority and showing that not only are we not &#39;weak&#39;, or &#39;criminal&#39;, or ignorant, but that we&#39;re strong, intelligent, we&#39;re just as &#39;good&#39; as anyone else- and that these negative stereotypes are bullshit- that we&#39;re above them- it is tool of self-empowerment in a context of immense social and economic oppression. A way to fight the internalisation of these stereotypes, so we don&#39;t have WC kids, Black kids, gay kids growing up thinking that they&#39;re inferior, they&#39;re weak, dumb- thinking that they&#39;re worthless- they need to see their strength- their intelligence - their worth.

It is in the end a means to unify and strengthen opressed peoples- so we can smash these stereotypes and the society that creates them. This is the role that black nationalism, the BBP (the former and the latter are not synonymous), and so forth have played for Black populations.

I agree, everyone needs to see their own intelligence and worth. I don&#39;t think that blaming "whitey" for all their problems is a good, nor healthy, way of doing it though.

Everyone is being oppressed by the current system, but wishing for racial seperation won&#39;t help matters. Once seperated the black people will simply be oppressed by the bourgeois blacks and the white people will continue to be oppressed by the white bourgeois. Rather than splitting into factions we need to work together to smash the capitalist system. Colour, sexuality etc shouldn&#39;t matter as these are only ways to divide us.



Originally posted by Black Dagger+Jun 11 2006, 11:58 AM--> (Black Dagger &#064; Jun 11 2006, 11:58 AM)
Originally posted by white polak
er...and arguably, many neo-nazis are pretty left wing economically.

Coming from someone who rigourously defends the notion of a &#39;white race&#39;, racial homogenity and so forth, such rubbish is not suprising.[/b]

when all else fails, call your opponent racist. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Black [email protected] 11 2006, 11:58 AM

white polak
But really, you know that Brits were enslaved by muslims in the 15th (???) century? They went to Britain by sea and then landed and captured the people and took them back to their lands.

What are your sources on this?

And as far this &#39;white people were slaves too&#39; argument goes, it smacks of &#39;Hey white people were oppressed as a race too, so we&#39;re all even&#33; - and is a common argument amongst white supremacists, who LOVE to point out whenever they can, examples of white people being oppressed by African, Asian peoples and so forth.

4th time. Seriously, can&#39;t you debate properly?

nonetheless:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/slavery.htm
http://www.dhimmitude.org/



Black [email protected] 11 2006, 11:58 AM

white polak
yeah things are still racist, both racist to blacks and to whites (and any other race for that matter).

Please explain how &#39;things are still racist to whites&#39;.

Maybe you missed my example?

To me personally, I&#39;ve been called "filthy pollack", "dirty pollack" etc. (Pollack is a dergotory term for Poles in Western countries)
My mate was refused work experience at a bank because the bank didn&#39;t offer it to whites.
I don&#39;t know if you know anything about south Africa, but if you ever see a black south African tapping his wrist at a white south African, do you know what that means? Time is running out - once Mugabe is dead all hell will break loose.




and call me white Polak if you want, it&#39;s true - I&#39;m white, I&#39;m a Pole. :unsure:

[Hiero]

I don&#39;t know if you know anything about south Africa, but if you ever see a black south African tapping his wrist at a white south African, do you know what that means? Time is running out - once Mugabe is dead all hell will break loose.

Do you mean Zimbabwe instead of South Africa, or do you mean Mendela instead of Mugabe?

And are you from either country, if not how do you know?

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 12:28 PM

I don&#39;t know if you know anything about south Africa, but if you ever see a black south African tapping his wrist at a white south African, do you know what that means? Time is running out - once Mugabe is dead all hell will break loose.

Do you mean Zimbabwe instead of South Africa, or do you mean Mendela instead of Mugabe?

And are you from either country, if not how do you know?
I don&#39;t know, I was told it once by a white south african and I can&#39;t remember tbh.

I&#39;m not from America either, shall I not comment on incidents there. Or Irak, or Germany, or Australia. :rolleyes:

[Eoin Dubh]

I heard the Mandela thing too, I asumed it was a racist myth.
Why would they wait?

During the transition 1994-95, there was sporadic racial vilolence targetted at Whites (the high profile case of Amy Biehl comes to mind) but it wasnt as bad as what could have been expected. Even after Chris Hani , who was loved by the people, was murdered by a pro apartheid fanatic.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by white polak+--> (white polak) oh that&#39;s a good idea, call me, who&#39;s been consistently arguing against racial seperation, a white supremacist. ffs.[/b]

I wasn&#39;t calling you a white supremacist, merely pointing out how your debating strategies coincide with those used commonly by white supremacists.


Originally posted by white polak+--> (white polak)
http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa040201a.htm

"By the time of the Ottoman Empire, the majority of slaves were obtained by raiding in Africa. Russian expansion had put an end to the source of "exceptionally beautiful" female and "brave" male slaves from the Caucasians -- the women were highly prised in the harem, the men in the military."[/b]

How does the link or quote you provide support your assertion that the Islamic slave system was worse than the european system? If anything it undermines your assertion:

As per the link, "Documentation suggests that slaves throughout Islamic world were mainly used for menial domestic and commercial purposes. Eunuchs were especially prised for bodyguards and confidential servants; women as concubines and menials."

Two-thirds of those involved in the Muslim slave trade were female, it was not as centred on raw labour force as was the system in the Americas.


Originally posted by white polak

No I don&#39;t know any southern slaves who became emperors or governors, but then I don&#39;t know any southern Americans who became emperors or governors either.

By &#39;southern Americans&#39; do you mean white southerners? Because there have been plenty of white southern governors, who do you think ran the political system of the southern US?


Originally posted by white polak

How interesting - Islamic overloads not only enslaving whites but also Africans&#33;

Perhaps this would be interesting if it was not already known.


Originally posted by white polak
For the simple reason that whites stopped ALL slavery, not just enslavement by whites.

Well it makes sense that the world biggest slave-traders would have the most power to stop the slave trade.

But whilst slavery was officially &#39;abolished&#39; in the British empire after europe had reaped the benefits for centuries, slavey continued in the US, and in other parts of the world, particularly in the south Pacific, where europeans (predominantly British) kidnapped and coerced people thousands of people to work on colonial plantations in the Pacific and northern Australia.

And after formal slavery was abolished, quasi-forms of slavery continued, just ask the hundreds of thousands of &#39;indentured labourers&#39; from India who where shipped by the British to the Carribbean, Pacific, and southern Africa.

And forgetting all of this, &#39;abolishing slavery&#39; is great, but it did little to alleviate the racism and economic exploitation faced by former slaves, and &#39;non-whites&#39; in the British empire, the US and so forth, who went merely from being formal to informal slaves (if you&#39;ve got no economic base and living in a thoroughly racist society you&#39;re not exactly gonna &#39;climb the ladder&#39; of success with ease).

Perhaps if the gracious white nations had magically abolished institutionalised racism, personal racism, and extreme economic inequality for &#39;non-white&#39; peoples, they&#39;d see whites in a better light?


Originally posted by white polak

I&#39;m not asking for thanks for it, I just think a little less on the hate would be nice.

Then perhaps you should acknowledge rather than downplay white racism?


Originally posted by white polak
Ever heard the phrase "get over it"?

Wow, how empathetic&#33; People should just &#39;get over&#39; centuries of oppression :rolleyes:


Originally posted by white polak
I agree, everyone needs to see their own intelligence and worth. I don&#39;t think that blaming "whitey" for all their problems is a good, nor healthy, way of doing it though.

Malcolm X, the BPP, didn&#39;t blame &#39;whitey&#39; for all of the problems facing Black people, they blamed the power-structure including capitalism, whites (and white racism) plays a significant role in the engrained racism that these systems perpetutate.


Originally posted by white polak
Everyone is being oppressed by the current system, but wishing for racial seperation won&#39;t help matters.

I agree, but the BPP and post-NOI Malcolm X were not &#39;racial separatists&#39;.


Originally posted by white polak

Once seperated the black people will simply be oppressed by the bourgeois blacks and the white people will continue to be oppressed by the white bourgeois. Rather than splitting into factions we need to work together to smash the capitalist system. Colour, sexuality etc shouldn&#39;t matter as these are only ways to divide us.

Yes, but this does not mean they we should should adopt a liberal &#39;colour blind&#39; mentality with regards to society or history.



Originally posted by white polak
when all else fails, call your opponent racist. :rolleyes:

Well, no, i don&#39;t think my arguments have &#39;failed&#39; at all.


Originally posted by white polak
4th time. Seriously, can&#39;t you debate properly?

nonetheless:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/slavery.htm
http://www.dhimmitude.org/

:lol:

You made a claim that the British were enslaved by muslims in the 15th century, i asked you to provide sources, you questioned my ability to &#39;debate properly&#39; then lazily gave me two links.

I&#39;ve read both, neither say anything about muslims enslaving the British in the 15th century, "seriously, can&#39;t you debate properly?"

Oh, and next time you provide sources on islamic slavery, perhaps you shouldnt&#39; link to an evangelical christian website (http://answering-islam.org.uk) whose aim is to convert muslims to christianity?



Originally posted by white polak
To me personally, I&#39;ve been called "filthy pollack", "dirty pollack" etc. (Pollack is a dergotory term for Poles in Western countries)

By other europeans? Racism is more than just insults, it relates to structural oppression, white people are not structurally oppressed on the basis of their &#39;race&#39; in any &#39;western&#39; country.


Originally posted by white polak

My mate was refused work experience at a bank because the bank didn&#39;t offer it to whites.

At a bank in poland? Could your mate have missed out because the company had an &#39;affirmative action&#39; policy?


white [email protected]

I don&#39;t know if you know anything about south Africa, but if you ever see a black south African tapping his wrist at a white south African, do you know what that means? Time is running out - once Mugabe is dead all hell will break loose.

Um, Mugabe is from Zimbabwe, not South Africa. And what does this have to do with your assertion that &#39;&#39;things are still racist to whites&#39;?


white polak
I don&#39;t know, I was told it once by a white south african and I can&#39;t remember tbh.

Okay, so you did mean South Africa, so you can&#39;t be talking about Mugabe. As far as South Africa, &#39;tapping the wrist&#39; is to do with time running out on apartheid, white supremacy and so forth, that is a comment about white racism not &#39;things that are racist to whites&#39;.

[Eoin Dubh]

Originally posted by ,Jun 10 [email protected] 08:18 AM
I&#39;m not a member of the NBPP but i have friends that are and.............
It&#39;s a shame white people love to compare NBPP to the KKK or neo nazis, .............
So stop. Noone hates jews.


Some interesting stuff from the Anti defamation leagues website about theNew Black Panther Party (NBPP):
http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Black_Pant...m=Black_Panther (http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Black_Panther.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=Black_Panther)

May 29, 1993, the Dallas chapter hosted a "National Black Power Summit and Youth Rally," which drew about 200 people. Speaking at the rally, McGee claimed that chapters had formed in 20 cities. In an effort to make common cause in favor of racial separatism, white supremacist Tom Metzger of White Aryan Resistance was also invited to speak. He told the audience that he believed in achieving goals "by whatever means necessary."

On Khalid Abdul Muhammad:

Muhammad&#39;s rise through the NOI hierarchy was abruptly halted in November 1993, after he delivered a notoriously anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, homophobic and racist speech at New Jersey&#39;s Kean College. In his remarks, Muhammad referred to Jews as "bloodsuckers," called for genocide against whites, vulgarly ridiculed Pope John Paul II and demeaned homosexuals.

And :

Muhammad typically, often wildly, attacked Jews, for instance, thusly: "I called them [Jews] bloodsuckers. I&#39;m not going to change that. Our lessons talk about the bloodsuckers of the poor in the supreme wisdom of the Nation of Islam. It&#39;s that old no-good Jew, that old imposter Jew, that old hooked-nose, bagel-eating, lox-eating, Johnny-come-lately perpetrating a fraud, just crawled out of the caves and hills of Europe, so-called damn Jew. . . and I feel everything I&#39;m saying up here is kosher." He also denied the reality of the Holocaust, rehashed old slanders about secret Jewish control and, more broadly, referred to the "white man" as "the devil," claiming that "there is a little bit of Hitler in all white people."

And:

Malik Zulu Shabazz:
Shabazz led chants of "death to Israel," "the white man is the devil," and "Jihad." He also said, "Kill every goddamn Zionist in Israel&#33; Goddamn little babies, goddamn old ladies&#33; Blow up Zionist supermarkets&#33;"
-------------------------------------------------------------
Bobby Seale, co-founder of the original Panthers, believes that the New Panthers have "hijacked our name and are hijacking our history."

David Hilliard, a former original Panther and executive director of the Dr. Huey P. Newton Foundation, said that the New Panthers "totally abandoned our survival programs." He also said that the racism that the group "espouse(s) flies directly in the face of the Black Panthers&#39; multicultural ideology and purpose."

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Red Polak+Jun 11 2006, 10:40 PM--> (Red Polak @ Jun 11 2006, 10:40 PM)
[email protected] 11 2006, 12:28 PM

I don&#39;t know if you know anything about south Africa, but if you ever see a black south African tapping his wrist at a white south African, do you know what that means? Time is running out - once Mugabe is dead all hell will break loose.

Do you mean Zimbabwe instead of South Africa, or do you mean Mendela instead of Mugabe?

And are you from either country, if not how do you know?
I don&#39;t know, I was told it once by a white south african and I can&#39;t remember tbh.

I&#39;m not from America either, shall I not comment on incidents there. Or Irak, or Germany, or Australia. :rolleyes: [/b]
I was just asking, jerkface.

You also still fail to realise that their is a Black Nation in the US in the Black Belt region, and they have a right to self-determination.

THE 1928 and 1930 COMINTERN (http://archive.250x.com/comintern/ciresolutions_1928_1930.html)

Bit old, but it&#39;s still relevant.


As far as South Africa, &#39;tapping the wrist&#39; is to do with time running out on apartheid, white supremacy and so forth, that is a comment about white racism not &#39;things that are racist to whites&#39;.

How do you know this?

[Nachie]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 11 2006, 10:49 AM
So what if the few he&#39;s spoken to don&#39;t outwardly show they&#39;re racist?

Of course they&#39;re not going to start spewing racist crap from day one, they&#39;ll do it overtime and slowly get him into their way of thinking.
Hey then maybe instead of kicking him off the boards just for mentioning them, we can explain our own analyses of the pros and cons of the N"BPP" and prepare him for the strategies they will use.

My #1 concern is that a loosely-defined "economic autonomy" for the black community can really just be capitalism by another name. We need to fight against "easy answers" that maintain the mode of production intact and prolong its existence.


Ever heard of the British National Party?

Many of their economic policies are rather left.
Yeah and I ask again, by who&#39;s standards? The social fucking democrats?

No political party has a "rather left" economic policy. Unless of course you identify as post-left, in which case yes they have leftist economic policies and that makes them even more a part of the problem.


yeah things are still racist, both racist to blacks and to whites (and any other race for that matter). But I don&#39;t think black people going on about "killing the white man" being particularly to the situation.
That&#39;s not what he said.


Pol Pot?
The muslim massacre of the Armenians?
All the wars in South America?
Dude, nobody said ALL the wars in history were of white people killing POC, but in many cases they were caused by imperialism being able to manipulate different nations into killing each other. Since you include "all" the wars in South America, you&#39;re not only talking about the "conquest" that was without a doubt a genocide of POC by Europeans, but also every civil war since then, where imperialism has always stepped in to defend its economic interests, which are ultimately the mass-subjugation of POC populations and culture.


What the whole "no dogs, no blacks, no irish" issue?

I already know.
It&#39;s a little more complicated than that, just like race oppression in America is more complicated than "Coloreds Only".


Don&#39;t fuck the leninists, they&#39;re cool. :P
drgbrrdgerdgvd
No but seriously, I hate Leninists.

This thread seems to have outlived its usefulness. Props to Black Dagger for stepping up.

[Hiero]

No but seriously, I hate Leninists.

The Panthers were Leninists.

[Nachie]

To be specific the Panthers were profoundly influenced by Maoism, primarily as an effect of the Cuban Revolution and should be considered "Guevarist" if anything (though that is also very misleading since they did not engage in "foco-ism"). Also the conditions in which and by which they organized led them to not self-identify as traditional left groups have done in the past, and they along with many other "Guevarist" groups, especially those begun by POC and in particular those that are actually in South America, do not specifically fit the Leninist paradigm and should be analyzed as such.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 02:05 AM
To be specific the Panthers were profoundly influenced by Maoism, primarily as an effect of the Cuban Revolution and should be considered "Guevarist" if anything (though that is also very misleading since they did not engage in "foco-ism"). Also the conditions in which and by which they organized led them to not self-identify as traditional left groups have done in the past, and they along with many other "Guevarist" groups, especially those begun by POC and in particular those that are actually in South America, do not specifically fit the Leninist paradigm and should be analyzed as such.
No they were Leninist. They viewed themselfs as the vangaurd of the people. Their aim was to serve the people and lead the movement. They based party organisation on Marxism-Leninism.

Also Che was a Leninist, so was Mao. I don&#39;t see how the Cuban revolution made them uphold Maoism, it was primarly the Cultural revolution which made them up hold Maoism. They even handed out Mao&#39;s quotation books, and used party guidlines based on Mao.

Your just going to have to accept it.

[Nachie]

I have "accepted" it, it&#39;s part of my overall critique of the BPP and I especially bring it up whenever anarchists seek to fetishize them as flawless. I also know that Marxism-Leninism is a total failure and several ex-Panthers have rethought vanguardism.

Che cannot be strictly identified as Leninist (Certainly for most of his life he was, though) and his ideas deserve a more thorough study than that, especially after the "break" with Fidel. I mean shit, his primary tactic was guerrilla warfare&#33;

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 11 2006, 12:19 PM





I wasn&#39;t calling you a white supremacist, merely pointing out how your debating strategies coincide with those used commonly by white supremacists.

Actually it&#39;s your debating strategy which does that. Just replace the word &#39;white&#39; with &#39;black&#39;.

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by Eoin [email protected] 11 2006, 01:45 PM


On Khalid Abdul Muhammad:

Muhammad&#39;s rise through the NOI hierarchy was abruptly halted in November 1993, after he delivered a notoriously anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, homophobic and racist speech at New Jersey&#39;s Kean College. In his remarks, Muhammad referred to Jews as "bloodsuckers," called for genocide against whites, vulgarly ridiculed Pope John Paul II and demeaned homosexuals.

And :

Muhammad typically, often wildly, attacked Jews, for instance, thusly: "I called them [Jews] bloodsuckers. I&#39;m not going to change that. Our lessons talk about the bloodsuckers of the poor in the supreme wisdom of the Nation of Islam. It&#39;s that old no-good Jew, that old imposter Jew, that old hooked-nose, bagel-eating, lox-eating, Johnny-come-lately perpetrating a fraud, just crawled out of the caves and hills of Europe, so-called damn Jew. . . and I feel everything I&#39;m saying up here is kosher." He also denied the reality of the Holocaust, rehashed old slanders about secret Jewish control and, more broadly, referred to the "white man" as "the devil," claiming that "there is a little bit of Hitler in all white people."





Khalid Abdul Mohammed says

A that Jews are bloodsuckers

B that the Holocaust did not happen

C that "there is a little bit of Hitler in all white people ", obviously implying that Hitler was evil.

This motherfucker cannot even understand that if A(=Jews are bloodsuckers) and B(=the Holocaust did not happen ) are right, then C(=Hitler was evil) is obviously wrong

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by LeftyHenry
Actually it&#39;s your debating strategy which does that. Just replace the word &#39;white&#39; with &#39;black&#39;.

K, so you&#39;re not gonna reply to my points then?

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 11 2006, 10:58 AM


Saying you&#39;re proud to be Black is the same as saying you&#39;re proud to be gay, or proud to be working class- it is slogan of empowerment for opressed peoples.

Being WC, gay or Black is portrayed as a negative in &#39;western&#39; society, because WC peoples are &#39;inferior&#39; to the &#39;middle class&#39;, they&#39;re rough, dirty, uneducated/ignorant, rude- criminal. Many of these traits are all assigned to black peoples, particularly Black men, they&#39;re brutish-strong-sexually aggressive-scary-violent- but also uneducated/ignorant and criminal. Gay peoples are weak, effeminate, vain and so forth.

That is, these terms are imbued heavily with negative connotations by &#39;middle class&#39; white hetero-normative &#39;society&#39;- being WC, being Black, being gay means you&#39;re not as &#39;good&#39; -you&#39;re not &#39;worth&#39; as much as a human being- you&#39;re inferior- black pride, WC pride and gay pride is about challenging these assertions/norms of inferiority and showing that not only are we not &#39;weak&#39;, or &#39;criminal&#39;, or ignorant, but that we&#39;re strong, intelligent, we&#39;re just as &#39;good&#39; as anyone else- and that these negative stereotypes are bullshit- that we&#39;re above them- it is tool of self-empowerment in a context of immense social and economic oppression. A way to fight the internalisation of these stereotypes, so we don&#39;t have WC kids, Black kids, gay kids growing up thinking that they&#39;re inferior, they&#39;re weak, dumb- thinking that they&#39;re worthless- they need to see their strength- their intelligence - their worth.

It is in the end a means to unify and strengthen opressed peoples- so we can smash these stereotypes and the society that creates them. This is the role that black nationalism, the BBP (the former and the latter are not synonymous), and so forth have played for Black populations.



You compare Black Nationalism with gay pride, but there is a little problem; while gay activists indeed fight "&#39;against the internalization of anti-gay stereotypes", the majority of black nationalists do NOT just fight "&#39;against the internalization of anti-black stereotypes". They also TRY TO CREATE ANTI-WHITE STEREOTYPES, by stating that whites are INNATELY oppressive, greedy, evil etc. I do not think that there are any gay activists claiming that &#39;&#39;the heterosexual man is the enemy&#39;&#39;. But there many Black Nationalists claiming that the white man is the enemy. And as they have the right to fight against the anti-black stereotypes, I have also the right to fight against the anti-white stereotypes that THEY CREATE.

I think that the outcome of this thread should be that all the races have been, more or less, both oppressors and oppressed. History teaches that unfortunately almost every ethnicity, race, tribe etc. who had the POWER, THE POTENTIAL to exploit another race did so. The ancient Greeks( and especially the Spartans) were slaveowners, the Romans were slaveowners, the Americans enslaved the Blacks and brought the Native Americans to the point of extinction, the Jews were slaves of the Ancient Egyptians, the Mongols at the era of Chinghis Khan raped so many women, that scientists today say that we, europeans, have a big dose of Mongol blood, the Muslim Turks are responsible for the death of 1.500.000 Armenians and 350.000 Greeks, the Japanese performed so cruel atrocities on the Chinese, that the Chinese people hate till now the Japanese ones more than anything else.

I think that the Black people are not the only ones who have to get over centuries of oppression. As I have said, my people( Greeks) have suffered much at the hands of Muslim Turks; I can personally say that the Turks are responsible for the murder of my grand-grandfather. I got over it. I think that black people should do the same. If they want to fight against the specific white individuals who are responsible for their oppression that&#39;s fine by me. But if they want to fight against " the white man" ( and consequently against me, as I am a white man), then I will fight them back. If they want to fight against the anti-black stereotypes, that&#39;s fine by me. But if they want to create anti-white stereotypes saying that "there is a little bit of Hitler in all white people " or that the white history is "junk"( as Johnny Anarcho said), then I will fight them back.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 03:46 PM
Che cannot be strictly identified as Leninist
I agree with you here, all opressed people and Left-wingers can take pride in Che&#39;s legacy

[guerillablack]

WOW. See i knew as soon as i went to sleep the wolves would attack&#33;

This is EXACTLY what we was talking about in reference to learning Black and African history&#33; You are against black power because you know nothing about it. For some strange reason, white leftists are more acceptive to brown, red and yellow power than black. Hmm.

Anyway if you do not live in America, then i strongly suggest you to shut up. You think one month of African American history is good enough? Do you know who they teach about in black history or what?

The FBI and other intelligence programs had a heavy hand in the deaths of Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Fred Hampton Jr, the destruction of the Black Panthers and other black power groups, as well as Abbie Hoffman and white leftists. Look up COINTELPRO and Hoover and shut up.

You have alot of misconceptions of black nationalism, the black power movements, Malcolm X, hell, the black experience in the United States/Caribbean/Diaspora, and Afrikan history. I would let you slide but you speak too much ignorance.

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 08:06 PM
WOW. See i knew as soon as i went to sleep the wolves would attack&#33;

This is EXACTLY what we was talking about in reference to learning Black and African history&#33; You are against black power because you know nothing about it. For some strange reason, white leftists are more acceptive to brown, red and yellow power than black. Hmm.

Anyway if you do not live in America, then i strongly suggest you to shut up. You think one month of African American history is good enough? Do you know who they teach about in black history or what?

The FBI and other intelligence programs had a heavy hand in the deaths of Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Fred Hampton Jr, the destruction of the Black Panthers and other black power groups, as well as Abbie Hoffman and white leftists. Look up COINTELPRO and Hoover and shut up.

You have alot of misconceptions of black nationalism, the black power movements, Malcolm X, hell, the black experience in the United States/Caribbean/Diaspora, and Afrikan history. I would let you slide but you speak too much ignorance.
I won&#39;t shut up as long as you, or your friend, Johnny Anarcho, say &#39;&#39;the white man is our enemy&#39;&#39;, &#39;&#39; white history is junk" etc. If I said that " black history is junk" would you shut up? Or would you call me racist , nazi, fascist etc?


I clearly stated that I have no problem with black power, as long as it is against only the racist whites, and not ALL whites. Which part of this statement can&#39;t you understand? Which part of this statement do you disagree with?

And from the first moment I declared that as a European, I have little knowledge about Malcolm X, and generally American history. I did not pretend to know many things about him, and I asked GENTLY more information about his death. Instead of offending me, can you give me this information?

[Eoin Dubh]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 08:06 PM
WOW. See i knew as soon as i went to sleep the wolves would attack&#33;

You are against black power because you know nothing about it.

For some strange reason, white leftists are more acceptive to brown, red and yellow power than black. Hmm.


Pointing out that a Rev left member should not, in good conscience, be a supporter of the Nazi collaborating, jew hating, white hating "New" "Black Panther Party"(BNPP) is not an attack bro.

You side with the REAL Black Panthers, I will be like John Brown.

You side with the likes of the NBPP leaders then you and I shall quarrel.

If the black power you speak of is the kind espoused by the NBPP I am familiar enough to oppose it.

More receptive to Brown, Red ,Yellow Power than Black?

Again, what sort of "Black power" are we talking about here?

[RebelDog]

For me its brothers and sisters from everywhere in the world against capitalism. None of us will ever be free unless we destroy capitalism and X was well aware of that. I know that if anyone was to extoll the virtues of white supremacy on these boards they would rightly be instantly banned. The same should be true of anyone who puts forward the idea that any race has the right to preeminence over another or the idea that someone should commit violent acts against another person because of his/her race. All racist dogma spouted on these forums should provoke a ban.

Workers of the world unite. Brothers and sisters of all the world unite.

[Comrade-Z]

Johnny Anarcho, I am curious:

Which do you think is more important: abolishing capitalism or achieving self-determination for the black community?

Do you think there is anything intrisic about white people that makes them particularly brutal oppressors? Do you imagine that it is possible that black capitalists could be just as brutal as white capitalists?

[guerillablack]

Neither I nor Johnny ever said white history was junk. Johnny said American history, and by that he meant American History classes and the information being fed to the youth in the education system.

If you know little information about Malcolm X or American history or the black experience, then why continue to perputate here as if you know?Why continue to argue with me and Johnny about how it is to be a black American, when one you are not black and two you are not even American&#33; I&#39;m sorry but you won&#39;t learn everything from textbooks&#33;(especially ones written not by the oppressed&#33;)

It&#39;s a real shame. Not only do i have to fight racists, but i also have to fight with white leftists(who are supposedly my allies) because they have been taught by the racist media that Black Power movements are bad&#33; The same media who say communism is bad and socialism is bad&#33; Do you find that ironic? It&#39;s a shame that when i yell black power, you think it means kill whitey. People fear what they cannot understand.

Which do you think is more important: abolishing capitalism or achieving self-determination for the black community?

abolishing capitalism is achieving self determination for the black community. put that in your pipe and smoke it. :redstar2000:

Black and Brown Liberation forever.

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by red polak
To me personally, I&#39;ve been called "filthy pollack", "dirty pollack" etc. (Pollack is a dergotory term for Poles in Western countries)
So other white people are racist against you? Interesting.
Also, the racism that Black people face is institutional, as well as including the results of historical oppression. Both of these types of racism feed individual racism too. Nowhere on the planet do white people face this.



I don&#39;t know if you know anything about south Africa, but if you ever see a black south African tapping his wrist at a white south African, do you know what that means? Time is running out - once Mugabe is dead all hell will break loose.
Did the person who told you this leave before apartheid ended? Because if they did, or even around the elections, I&#39;d say they&#39;re full of shit. I&#39;m from South Africa,and I&#39;ve never heard of this happening. EVER. It sounds like something a racist white South African who left the country when "the Blacks took over" would say...

In fact, when apartheid ended, as in that quote from Desmond Tutu, white people should be EXTREMELY grateful that there wasn&#39;t more violence, and that their assets weren&#39;t removed.

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 10:13 PM
Neither I nor Johnny ever said white history was junk. Johnny said American history, and by that he meant American History classes and the information being fed to the youth in the education system.

If you know little information about Malcolm X or American history or the black experience, then why continue to perputate here as if you know?Why continue to argue with me and Johnny about how it is to be a black American, when one you are not black and two you are not even American&#33; I&#39;m sorry but you won&#39;t learn everything from textbooks&#33;(especially ones written not by the oppressed&#33;)

It&#39;s a real shame. Not only do i have to fight racists, but i also have to fight with white leftists(who are supposedly my allies) because they have been taught by the racist media that Black Power movements are bad&#33; The same media who say communism is bad and socialism is bad&#33; Do you find that ironic? It&#39;s a shame that when i yell black power, you think it means kill whitey. People fear what they cannot understand.

Which do you think is more important: abolishing capitalism or achieving self-determination for the black community?

abolishing capitalism is achieving self determination for the black community. put that in your pipe and smoke it. :redstar2000:

Black and Brown Liberation forever.
I did not perpetuate here as if I know about Malcolm X. I made it clear from the first moment that I know little about him and I asked kindly the other members to give me more information. When some people yell black power, I think it means " kill whitey", because they THEMSELVES say that they want to kill, or at least to harm white people.
I am not saying that all the people who are into Black Power have the "kill whitey" mentality.... But I think that some of them have this mentality. Do you disagree?

I made it clear from the beginning.. I have a problem only with the black nationalists who are anti-white. I know that there are many black nationalists, who are not anti-white and I respect them. You seem not to be anti-white, and so I respect you. On the other side Johnny Anarcho seems to be anti-white.... but he is too young, and maybe he will change his mind as he grows older.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

wow this thread is 5 pages long. Hey let&#39;s start a thread about white power and see how fast we get banned.

[guerillablack]

That&#39;s because black, brown, yellow, red power is completely different than white power. One is trying to keep minorities oppressed and whites in power, while the others are tryna to free themselves and fight against oppression. until you realize this, we are not allies.

[Eoin Dubh]

Originally posted by guerillabla[email protected] 13 2006, 04:06 AM
That&#39;s because black, brown, yellow, red power is completely different than white power. One is trying to keep minorities oppressed and whites in power, while the others are tryna to free themselves and fight against oppression. until you realize this, we are not allies.
No, until you clearly state as to whether you support the racist , anti semitic, homophobic hatred pushed by the NBPP and supported by those friends of yours who are members, or if you rather support the REAL Black Panthers,
we are not allies.

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by Mujer Libre+Jun 12 2006, 05:05 AM--> (Mujer Libre &#064; Jun 12 2006, 05:05 AM)[quote]red polak
[Did the person who told you this leave before apartheid ended? Because if they did, or even around the elections, I&#39;d say they&#39;re full of shit. I&#39;m from South Africa,and I&#39;ve never heard of this happening. EVER. It sounds like something a racist white South African who left the country when "the Blacks took over" would say...

In fact, when apartheid ended, as in that quote from Desmond Tutu, white people should be EXTREMELY grateful that there wasn&#39;t more violence, and that their assets weren&#39;t removed.

No, the person was a Brit.

Assets haven&#39;t been removed yet but the violence is growing there, with black "warlords" getting off with pretty light sentences for their crimes against whites.

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 11:13 PM
[racist rantings]

Black and Brown Liberation forever.

How interesting.

You sir, are no comrade of mine. I am in favour of black, brown, yellow, white, blue, green, pink, purple, orange, red liberation not only the liberation of certain races. :angry:

Here&#39;s some more links for you, I&#39;m sure you know about the great heroine Joanne Chesimard (aka. Assata Shakur), MURDERED a policeman in cold blood:
http://njlawman.com/Feature%20Pieces/Joanne%20Chesimard.htm

And a fantastic piece:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_5_27_03ss.html

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by Red Polak+Jun 13 2006, 11:49 AM--> (Red Polak &#064; Jun 13 2006, 11:49 AM)
Originally posted by Mujer [email protected] 12 2006, 05:05 AM
[quote]red polak
[Did the person who told you this leave before apartheid ended? Because if they did, or even around the elections, I&#39;d say they&#39;re full of shit. I&#39;m from South Africa,and I&#39;ve never heard of this happening. EVER. It sounds like something a racist white South African who left the country when "the Blacks took over" would say...

In fact, when apartheid ended, as in that quote from Desmond Tutu, white people should be EXTREMELY grateful that there wasn&#39;t more violence, and that their assets weren&#39;t removed.

No, the person was a Brit.

Assets haven&#39;t been removed yet but the violence is growing there, with black "warlords" getting off with pretty light sentences for their crimes against whites.
What Huey P Newton stabbed someone and went to jail and burglarized homes?Damn. Thanks for showing me that link bro, i really wouldnt have known this if Huey himself hadn&#39;t said it in his OWN auto-biography Revolutionary Suicide :D

And thanks for an unbiased link to Assata Shakur. Why don&#39;t you give me a link about the OJ case from Ms. Brown&#39;s website while your at it. I suggest you yourself read more about WHY they pulled her over and the targetting of BLA and BPP members by FBI and local police and COINTELPRO. Oh and please gimme a link to why Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Rosa Parks, and any other black hero is bad. <_<

How are you in favor of black liberation if you feel it means kill whitey&#33;
Do you know why you think it means kills whitey&#33; Because black power challenges the white power structure, the white way of life, white privledge&#33; You feel threatened by black power because black power is threatening the power structure, which you gain from whether consciously or unconsciously, willingly nor willingly&#33;

I&#39;m not racist. I don&#39;t live in a fatansy world like you. Unfortately, i can&#39;t just stop complaining, get over it, or stop being black. Doesn&#39;t matter if i stop being a leftist, a democrat, republican, change my clothes, i&#39;ll always be black and be discriminated against because of my race.

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by guerillablack+Jun 13 2006, 06:20 PM--> (guerillablack &#064; Jun 13 2006, 06:20 PM)What Huey P Newton stabbed someone and went to jail and burglarized homes?Damn. Thanks for showing me that link bro, i really wouldnt have known this if Huey himself hadn&#39;t said it in his OWN auto-biography Revolutionary Suicide :D

And thanks for an unbiased link to Assata Shakur. Why don&#39;t you give me a link about the OJ case from Ms. Brown&#39;s website while your at it. I suggest you yourself read more about WHY they pulled her over and the targetting of BLA and BPP members by FBI and local police and COINTELPRO. Oh and please gimme a link to why Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Rosa Parks, and any other black hero is bad. <_< [/b]

Who gives a shit why she was pulled over? Even if we say it was solely because she&#39;s black (which you have no proof of) that&#39;s no reason to go ballistic and murder a cop.


[email protected] 13 2006, 06:20 PM
How are you in favor of black liberation if you feel it means kill whitey&#33;
Do you know why you think it means kills whitey&#33; Because black power challenges the white power structure, the white way of life, white privledge&#33; You feel threatened by black power because black power is threatening the power structure, which you gain from whether consciously or unconsciously, willingly nor willingly&#33;
Oh christ...you are joking right?

I&#39;m not in favour of black liberation. I&#39;m in favour of liberation for ALL races. (try not to misquote me on that).

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by Red Polak+Jun 13 2006, 12:25 PM--> (Red Polak &#064; Jun 13 2006, 12:25 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 06:20 PM
What Huey P Newton stabbed someone and went to jail and burglarized homes?Damn. Thanks for showing me that link bro, i really wouldnt have known this if Huey himself hadn&#39;t said it in his OWN auto-biography Revolutionary Suicide :D

And thanks for an unbiased link to Assata Shakur. Why don&#39;t you give me a link about the OJ case from Ms. Brown&#39;s website while your at it. I suggest you yourself read more about WHY they pulled her over and the targetting of BLA and BPP members by FBI and local police and COINTELPRO. Oh and please gimme a link to why Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Rosa Parks, and any other black hero is bad. <_<

Who gives a shit why she was pulled over? Even if we say it was solely because she&#39;s black (which you have no proof of) that&#39;s no reason to go ballistic and murder a cop.


[email protected] 13 2006, 06:20 PM
How are you in favor of black liberation if you feel it means kill whitey&#33;
Do you know why you think it means kills whitey&#33; Because black power challenges the white power structure, the white way of life, white privledge&#33; You feel threatened by black power because black power is threatening the power structure, which you gain from whether consciously or unconsciously, willingly nor willingly&#33;
Oh christ...you are joking right?

I&#39;m not in favour of black liberation. I&#39;m in favour of liberation for ALL races. (try not to misquote me on that). [/b]
http://www.assatashakur.org/mosdef.htm

or how about this link

http://olm.blythe-systems.com/pipermail/ny...808/021628.html (http://olm.blythe-systems.com/pipermail/nytr/Week-of-Mon-20050808/021628.html)

. The three official investigative reports prepared by Harper, in which he
wrote that after he stopped the Pontiac, he ordered Sundiata to the back of
the car to show his driver&#39;s license to Trooper Foerster, who had arrived at
the scene. That Sundiata complied without incident. That as he looked into
the inside door of the Pontiac to check the registration, Foerster yelled at
him and held up an ammunition clip. He stated that at the same time Assata
reached into a red pocketbook, removed a gun from it and fired at him. That
he immediately ran to the rear of his car and fired at Assata, who had
emerged from the car and was firing at him from a prostrate position
alongside of the Pontiac. And it was at this point that he shot her
(admitted into evidence).

b. His Grand Jury testimony, where he swore under oath to the truth of the
statements he had made in his 3 official reports (admitted into evidence).

c. Trial transcripts of his testimony at both Sundiata&#39;s and Assata&#39;s
trials, where he admitted, under cross-examination, that he had lied in all
three of his official reports and in his Grand Jury testimony. That the
truth was that Foerster had never shown him an ammunition clip; that
Foerster had not yelled to him; that he had not seen a gun in Assata&#39;s hand
while she was seated in the car; that Assata did not shoot him from the car;
and that he had not seen a red pocketbook.

[Hampton]

Who gives a shit why she was pulled over? Even if we say it was solely because she&#39;s black (which you have no proof of) that&#39;s no reason to go ballistic and murder a cop.

There is little proof that she killed the cop, and when was it decided that cops were such nice people? Assata got shot under the arm, meaning that they were up at the time.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

That&#39;s because black, brown, yellow, red power is completely different than white power. One is trying to keep minorities oppressed and whites in power, while the others are tryna to free themselves and fight against oppression. until you realize this, we are not allies.

Black power advocates black supremicism and hate towards whites just because they tan different.

White power advocates white supremicism and hate towards blacks just because they tan different.

That&#39;s what it all comes down to. You can glamorize it. but in truth those are the differences.

I don&#39;t want rascists as my allies. I want people who care for each othere and want to work for a unified humaine world. Not a separated hateful one.

[Body Count]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 09:56 PM

That&#39;s because black, brown, yellow, red power is completely different than white power. One is trying to keep minorities oppressed and whites in power, while the others are tryna to free themselves and fight against oppression. until you realize this, we are not allies.

Black power advocates black supremicism and hate towards whites just because they tan different.

White power advocates white supremicism and hate towards blacks just because they tan different.

That&#39;s what it all comes down to. You can glamorize it. but in truth those are the differences.

I don&#39;t want rascists as my allies. I want people who care for each othere and want to work for a unified humaine world. Not a separated hateful one.
It should be noted that "Black Power" is a completely different thing from Black Nationalism and Black Supremacism. "Black Power" was more of a new found political consciousness amongst blacks in the 60&#39;s and 70&#39;s. Big Afro&#39;s, raising the fist, and fighting against self hate is what Black Power is/was about. Of course though, it has obvious connections with black nationalism.

Black nationalism is a result of the widescale oppression that goes on in America. Black Nationalist believe that Black Americans make up a separate nation within America, and that this said nation has a right to soveirgty like any other nation.

I have a problem with most of what people in this thread have been saying about black nationalism because frankly...most of you are simply basing your critiques of it around subjective, personal, ethical codes. Material conditions are whats important, and as of right now, Black Americans have been getting shit on for 400 years in America......there are those who simply believe that enough is enough.

Nationalistic groups of oppressed nations is almost always progressive in my eyes.

As communist, OF COURSE the "main goal" should be complete and utter unification on a planetary level, however, we shouldn&#39;t just deny what we see and know with our own lives. Do you think that integration worked? I certainly don&#39;t think it has. Black Americans would have been better off had they followed Malcolm X, Huey P. Newton, and the NOI instead of MLK. Black Americans should have sacked the fucking whitehouse.....

[RedAnarchist]

I think that we should look at Black Nationalism like we look at "non-imperialist" nationalism, such as that of Ireland, Palestine and the Euskal Herrera. These nationalists are not put in the same category as British, American, Israeli nationalists are they?

[Body Count]

For the record, I disagree with Johny Anarcho&#39;s stance on "back to Africa" for the simple part that he&#39;s saying "back to".....

I am strongly against this "Blacks=Africa, Whites=Europe, Asians=Asia, Native Americans=Americas, etc etc" stance.....this is the same attitude that places Israel on Palestinian land....

If you believe that Black Americans make up a separate nation, then you must also believe that its a helluva lot deeper then just skin color or genes. Its about language, culture, a sense of community, a common geography, along with other things.

Black Americans have been living in the America&#39;s for 400 years.....as whites have been and in fact the first ones here were actually not even slaves contrary to popular opinion. Black Americans have no more right to African land then the European colonialist did.

[Body Count]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 10:13 PM
abolishing capitalism is achieving self determination for the black community. put that in your pipe and smoke it.
:D :D :D :lol:

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Do you think that integration worked? I certainly don&#39;t think it has

what are you talking about? Are you saying we should segregate again? I&#39;m getting really sickened with you guys. Back to Africa, Kill whitey, and now segregation. I&#39;m sorry but I&#39;m not a racist and I don&#39;t judge people by the color of their skin. I have good friends who aren&#39;t white who I&#39;ve gone through thick and thin with, lived with and now you tell me that integration hasn&#39;t worked? <_< I&#39;m really shocked that a so called &#39;communist&#39; would say some shit like that.

[guerillablack]

Who said kill whitey here?besides in reference to whitey as not a singular person but as white power structure.
Back to Africa.back to africa is as much a mental, spiritual movement as it is a physical.

Integration worked? :lol:
Gaps in education,health,employment, and everything under the sun, still exists and growing.

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by Red Polak
Yup racism from fellow whites, but apparently that never happens. rolleyes.gif
Did I SAY that it never happens? It&#39;s regrettable, and proves how STUPID racism is. I wanted to point out how white people don&#39;t face institutional racism.


I&#39;m sure in non-white majority countries whites face the same "institutional racism" as blacks do in America.
From my experience no, as whites who live in those countries tend to be wealthy. In African countries, the white population are often rich farmers. They are also not living in a society that colonised white people (with all the lingering effects of that) nor are they living in a settler colony like Australia or the US. It just doesn&#39;t equate.


No, the person was a Brit.
So they know their stuff, right?


Assets haven&#39;t been removed yet but the violence is growing there, with black "warlords" getting off with pretty light sentences for their crimes against whites.
WTF? You&#39;re so uninformed&#33;
"Warlords??" You&#39;re just making things up now. Yeah, there are gangs in South Africa and there is a lot of violent crime, but crimes are often motivated by poverty. The facts are, most rich people are white, and most poor people are Black. There&#39;s also the legacy of a violent dictatorship, causing a violent society. Oh, and frustration with the sellout, neolieral governance...

And as for court rulings, I think rich white people are more likely to get off- like rich people anywhere- because they can afford the best lawyers.

[Body Count]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 02:11 AM
what are you talking about? Are you saying we should segregate again?

I&#39;m not throwing out any personal ideas........all I&#39;m saying that there is a big difference between white nationalism and black nationalism and that one can easily make a case for a separate black nation.

Segregate? No. We saw what segregation was like during the Jim Crow era.

Separation? Possibly.

Segregation is separation WHILE MAINTAINING CONTROL. Separation on the other hand is complete liberation from an oppressive nation.


I&#39;m getting really sickened with you guys. Back to Africa, Kill whitey, and now segregation. I&#39;m sorry but I&#39;m not a racist and I don&#39;t judge people by the color of their skin. I have good friends who aren&#39;t white who I&#39;ve gone through thick and thin with, lived with and now you tell me that integration hasn&#39;t worked? <_<

Look, we are talking about widescale movements.....we are talking on a national level. This isn&#39;t a personal or individual thing.....


I&#39;m really shocked that a so called &#39;communist&#39; would say some shit like that.

I&#39;m really shocked that a so called &#39;communist&#39; would fall into the trap of believing in bullshit liberal lies about how great so called "integration" has been for black people.

The country ISN&#39;T EVEN INTEGRATED&#33;

Name ONE community in America where whites and blacks live together&#33; You CAN&#39;T, because there is "Black Neighborhoods" and there is "White Neighborhoods"....sure, you may find some diversity here and there, but that is certainly nothing to get excited about. The Black neighborhoods are generally the slums, while the white generally are not so.

School segregation is just as much a reality as it ever was.

Economic inequality between blacks and whites is frightening...

America has thrown more people in prison then any nation in history....not surprisingly, a high percentage of those people are black.

The white controlled media and culture has fucked with the black perception of beauty and the "right" way to look as well (This is an area where "Black Power" was really progressive, unfortunately, it didn&#39;t last long and self hate is at an all time high). Self image is very important and blacks simply haven&#39;t been treated well at all in this area.....

But hey, blacks can now use water fountains, eat at lunch counters, and have BET....:lol:

[Body Count]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 03:15 AM
Back to Africa.back to africa is as much a mental, spiritual movement as it is a physical.

I don&#39;t believe in "spiritual", I believe in material conditions...the physical is ALL THAT MATTERS&#33;

One of my biggest gripes with some black nationalist movements is that most of them are drenched in superstition and mythology AKA religion and spirituality.

Truth is, Black Americans have no more claim to Africa then they do Asia or Europe.......why do you give in to this idea that your blood belongs to some geographical land mass?


Integration worked? :lol:
Gaps in education,health,employment, and everything under the sun, still exists and growing.

Yup&#33;

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 03:15 AM
Who said kill whitey here?
"What needs to happen is all black and non-white peoples need to unite and overthrow our common enemy, the white man"

yay RACE WAR&#33;

[guerillablack]

Overthrow the white man = kill whitey?
You cant overthrow someone thats not in a position of power. So i dont see how overthrowing the white man in a society that has a white male power structure is a bad thing.

But then again i can&#39;t see alot of your points on a lot of things.

Cuz as you see here alot of white leftists have twisted views on institutional racism, their status in the American power structure, and white prilvedge.

If you look at that quote, you can see that its not a race war as you are trying to proprogate it as. Non-white people are the oppressed people and people suffering from instutional racism, they need to unite and overthrow whitey, ie, get rid of white power and white privledge, and distribute power equally.

black and brown power

[adenoid hynkel]

What is institutional racism? How does institutional racism differ from common racism"?

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 04:06 PM
its not a race war as you are trying to proprogate it as. Non-white people are the oppressed people and people suffering from instutional racism, they need to unite and overthrow whitey, ie, get rid of white power and white privledge, and distribute power equally.
I don&#39;t get why you need to make race an issue. There are impoverished white people while there are also black politicians and there&#39;s surely a small number of bourgoise black people too. So what&#39;s wrong with just a class war?

[Redmau5]

Non-white people are the oppressed people

What? The working-class are the oppressed people. What about countries in which the population is almost exclusively white? Are you saying there is no oppression there? Are all the white people in those countries middle-class suburbanites? Of course they aren&#39;t. Don&#39;t tell me you are someone who argues that there is no such thing as the white proletariat.

[Body Count]

Originally posted by adenoid [email protected] 14 2006, 06:57 PM
What is institutional racism? How does institutional racism differ from common racism"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism


Institutional racism (or structural racism or systemic racism) is a form of racism that occurs in institutions such as public bodies and corporations, including universities. The term was coined by black activist Stokely Carmichael. In the late 1960s he defined the term as "the collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin".[1] In the UK, the inquiry following the murder of Stephen Lawrence accused the police force of being institutionally racist.

Institutional racism is distinguished from the bigotry or racial bias of individuals by the existence of systematic yet covert policies and practices that have the effect of disadvantaging certain racial or ethnic groups. Race-based discrimination in housing (see restrictive covenants) and bank lending (see redlining), for example, are forms of institutional racism.

The term "institutional racism" has also been applied to policies, systems, and processes which are not necessarily caused by intentional racism but which have the effect of disadvantaging certain racial groups.

For example, an institution which states that women have to wear skirts is institutionally discriminating against religions where women are expected to hide the shape of their legs. An institution which expects everyone to wear the same hat is institutionally discriminating against Sikh men, who are expected to wear turbans, and Muslim women who wear the hijab or a veil. Institutions don&#39;t necessarily adopt such rules with the intention of discriminating, and often, once the discrimination has been pointed out, institutions revise their policies. For example, Sikh police officers may now wear turbans instead of helmets.

The use of standardized testing is often termed "institutional racism," as this kind of assessment is often significantly influenced by cultural and social background, with the supposed result that in much of the Western world racial minorities tend to score lower. This promotes both societal and cultural segregation based only on educational background, and not specifically the individual&#39;s race or ethnicity. However, it is generally those individuals who are both born and educated in foreign countries that are most likely to encounter this phenomenon.

An example of this may be the policy on crack cocaine. Cocaine in its pure form is very expensive, and therefore, is generally used by rich politicians, businessmen, entertainers, etc etc etc. Crack cocaine on the other hand is cheap, and as we all know, is mostly used by people in slums and the homeless and such. Now, you would think that getting caught with cocaine would be worst then getting caught with crack, for the simple fact that cocaine is generally just that...pure cocaine not cut with anything. This is not the case however, it is crack that will get you more years in prison. Now, many Black Americans see this as a form as instituionalized racism, when your which and white in your office building and some pig catches you with pure cocaine, you get a slap on the wrist. Yet some poor black crackhead, with some cheap ass crack, gets thrown in prison. (You could of course, just as easily make this a class struggle, but, thats just one example I could think of).

Another form of instituionalized racism may be how the Katrina incident was handled.......do any of you REALLY think that whites would have been treated like that? Or that the media nearly a year later would be focusing so much attention on some of the scammers (Which they ARE doing, instead of following up how the majority of these people are simply trying to get back their feet, the media is still making a fuss about people using FEMA checks for shows and football tickets and such......just trying to pull another "black looters" thing)?

"Common racism" would be the use of racial slurs or something. While it affects people on a very personal level, it DOESN&#39;T affect material conditions for entire nations the way that institutionalized racism does. A black man calling a white man a "cracker" is nothing compared to a racist white police captain or white court judge.....

Personally, I think that institutionalized racism is a lot deeper then this even.

I see it as, stereotypes and beliefs on certain races that society itself follows and in a way is based on....I might call it "Societal Racism"....but thats a completely different subject that I won&#39;t delve into.

[Body Count]

Originally posted by Matty_UK+Jun 14 2006, 07:10 PM--> (Matty_UK &#064; Jun 14 2006, 07:10 PM)I don&#39;t get why you need to make race an issue. There are impoverished white people while there are also black politicians and there&#39;s surely a small number of bourgoise black people too. So what&#39;s wrong with just a class war?[/b]
Black Nationalist assume that class war is very far away or that it may not even happen. Just as with white people, most blacks simply aren&#39;t communist, and know nothing of marxist theory. What they do know about however is the fact that amerikkka has thrown more black men in prison then South Africa did under aparthied.

Also, many black nationalist may simply not believe that equality will be gained for blacks even with some communist/anarchist revolution....should they believe this? I&#39;m not so sure they should really.....chauvinism seems to be something that even leftist find hard to shake.


[email protected] 14 2006, 11:21 PM
What? The working-class are the oppressed people. What about countries in which the population is almost exclusively white? Are you saying there is no oppression there? Are all the white people in those countries middle-class suburbanites? Of course they aren&#39;t. Don&#39;t tell me you are someone who argues that there is no such thing as the white proletariat.

All I&#39;ll say is that oppression is different then exploitation, and low wages are different then having your history rewritten, your culture surpressed, and your people dehumanized.....

[Body Count]

Something else that should be noted about Black Nationalism is that those who are serious about it, and who REALLY understand the idea of a "Nation", will recognize that it is about the liberation of just that : A NATION&#33; Not a race&#33; (This is yet another reason why I reject any ideas of "Back to Africa").Not every socially "black" person is apart of the black nation(Like most of those black politicians that matty mentioned for instance...:lol:) ......and some socially "white" people may be.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Fine. VOLUNTARY Separatism is fine with me, but wasn&#39;t that what Liberia was for?

[Body Count]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 04:34 AM
Fine. VOLUNTARY Separatism is fine with me,

Of course.

I&#39;m not talking about running into peoples homes and dragging them away to some new land......:lol:


but wasn&#39;t that what Liberia was for?

I&#39;ve already stated that I believe the idea of "Back to Africa" is inherently flawed. Once again, Black Americans have as much right to Africa land as Jews had to Palestinian land......meaning, they have none. Black Americans don&#39;t live in Africa, and are entitled to no land there.

If there ever were to be a "Black Nation", it would be located in area taken away from the US (Which is what the NOI has always fought for).