Police legitimacy

[drain.you]

Split from CC

Do you seriously believe that the police are always our enemy? They protect people from many things and provide much needed service in society. Just because they tend to side with the cappies doesnt mean they can never help the people.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 06:31 PM
Do you seriously believe that the police are always our enemy? They protect people from many things and provide much needed service in society. Just because they tend to side with the cappies doesnt mean they can never help the people.
Occassionally they may actually help some one that isn't of a specifically favoured section of society, but this is the exception, not the rule. The police, especially as they exist, are an oppressive agent of our society and we should not be legitimising them.

Say a nzi party came into government, and they occassionally helped "the people" would you go through party means as legitimate, or would your efforts be concentrated at their removal and having nothing to do with them while they exist?

This is off topic, I can split to another thread if you wish to discuss this further?...

[drain.you]

Hey again,
I dunno. Despite my politics I try to keep positive about as many things as I can and police kinda fell into that catergory. Living in a working class area where domestic violence (not just wife beating, I mean arguements in street, threats, fighting amongst drunks, theft and vandalism, etc) is pretty high, I kinda see the police as the ones that solve the problems and disputes and stop gang wars breaking out lol. Maybe its because the police tend to favour families in my area that keep themselves to themselves like mine and dont tend to get into any trouble that I haven't really seen the police as the enemy, but in fact people to call when needing assistence.

Of course, this isn't always the case. I have seen disturbing footage of police beating protesters, hear of police rape, of police shooting strikers and aiding the capitalists in suppressing the workers.

As far as the law is concerned, stuff like laws against pedophila and rape which protect citizens are going to in place, one way or another after the revolution, I mean we are not going to have the 'media portrayal of anarchy' where no morals or values exist. So I see police enforcing these laws as good for the community.

[Janus]

Perhaps, the word police would not be the best word for a post-revolutionary force. The police simply protect one classes's interests.

After the revolution, the people can enforce and prevent violence on their own. Besides, most economical crimes would be greatly reduce and that is quite significant as the majority of crimes committed are economical in nature.

[Enragé]

the police is at any time that which protects the system, the class interests of the ruling class. Just because "keeping the peace" includes stopping serial killers and rapists doesnt diminish the fact that the only reason they "keep the peace" is so that exploitation can continue

I recently read an article on the '92 (i think it was) LA riots on i think libcom and apparently during the riots there was less crime than on normal days (except for offcourse the looting of capitalist enterprises and beating up cops ;) )

as for post revolution; we dont need "the police", we'll have workers militias under the control of the worker-councils.

[Ander]

Although there are a lot of corrupt mother fucker cops, I don't think all of them are terrible and agents of the rich, etc.

Some have chosen this career because they truly want to help those who are harmed by criminals.

[Janus]

Some have chosen this career because they truly want to help those who are harmed by criminals.
Some. Not all are bad people. Yet whether they know it or not, they are simply tools of the state and that makes them inherently bad.

[Ali.Cat]

Just because "keeping the peace" includes stopping serial killers and rapists doesnt diminish the fact that the only reason they "keep the peace" is so that exploitation can continue

I'm new at this :blush: ... could you just explain your justification behind this statement a little. Maybe I'm naiive, but I've never thought of the police as existing solely to protect the ruling class.

Thanks.

[apathy maybe]

Police are generally scum. The good ones either become scum or leave.

They are an obvious example of the oppressive state structure that exists all around us. Without the police (and military) the laws would not be followed, and the state would collapse.

Even if sometimes police can do good things, the good are out weighed by the bad.

And the police are not even very good at their job! Look at the stats for crimes reported, crimes committed and crimes solved (convictions).

I've never had a good experience with police.

(Please do not call police pigs, pigs are kind sensitive intelligent animals. Police are scum, call them that.)

[Kuro Morfos]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 06:31 PM
Split from CC

Do you seriously believe that the police are always our enemy? They protect people from many things and provide much needed service in society. Just because they tend to side with the cappies doesnt mean they can never help the people.
Police do definately do good things too. Its riot officers that tend to be an infringement on peoples' rights. I have heard of a case where the police actually protected anti-war protestors from an angry local. This was in San Diego County, I don't know about where you live. To be more honest though, I have read an article in which a youthful GOP rally was harassed by police officers, so its not just those on the left who may take insults from the police.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Ali Cat; The police enforce the laws of the government (ruling class). The government have there allegiance to their campaign backers and the middle-upper classes, not the working class who don't have the financial power to challenge them, and as a result of disenchantment/realisation of the bullshit nature do not tend to vote in as high a proportion.

The government then are creating an illussion of working for the general populace, but are doing anything but. The police enforce these laws that are there to protect the rich, powerful elite and keep the "proles" in line. They are often also a law unto themselves.

No one denies that there might be a few cops that are in there for noble reasons and are just misguided, but this is true of most oppressive institutions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[drain.you]

So you could argue the only reason that the police do 'good' things are so that society runs as normal and doesn't disrupt capitalist production and exploitation. I think I've got my head around this now, it was just that bit about how police seem to do 'good' things to help people in society that was confusing me.

[rioters bloc]

cool. i was actually thinking of starting something about this, it's been done for me! hurrah.

the other day a friend of mine was sexually assaulted by a man. luckily she had the strength (mental more than physical) to be able to push him away and make a bolt for it. however, he saw her go into the cafe where she worked and the entire day she was in fear that he would come back.

the next day she told me about it, and without even actually thinking about it really i said, 'that's fucked, you should report it.' to which she replied, 'i considered that, but i don't feel comfortable with going to the cops when i'm so anti-police and anti-state'.

it got me thinking. i personally have had nothing but bad experiences with the cops, and am frequently driven to angry tears and much flailing of limbs when i talk about just how shit they are, both as protectors of the state and also even individual ones. but i was so quick to suggest she go to them. the reason i said that to her, though, was not because i thought that the cops could do anything about it or because i thought they'd even care, but just so it would be there on file. the stats for domestic violence and sexual assault are much, much lower than the reality because wom*n are often afraid that they won't be believed, that their word isn't worth as much as a man's; because they have no faith in the system. and so they shouldn't, the system has done very, very little (if anything) to protect the rights of wom*n. and while i don't think that reporting crimes is going to fix that, it does create a clearer picture of just HOW fucked the system is, and how deep it runs - it's not just a few wom*n here or there who are bashed by their drunk boyfriends, but it's EVERYWHERE. it happens all the fucking time. and if more accurate figures get out, it's much harder to hide it.

do i think that the state is going to be able to fix it, even if they're forced to because of public outrage? doubtful. but i do have hopes that it will politicise more wom*n when they see how much the system subjugates us. and, anything the state does, while it will be reformist, even if it helps stop even a coupla wom*n from being assaulted or abused, i think it's worth it. i know that 2 years ago when i was locked in a car and almost raped by a man twice as heavy and half a foot taller than me, the reason i didn't report it was because i didn't see how the cops could help me. i regret it now because who knows how many other wom*n he tried to pull the same stunt on? and what if they weren't as lucky as me?

it's a dilemma, that's for sure.

[Nachie]

Fuck the police.

Cases of sexual assault in which it is the wish of the survivor to involve the state is the only time I will ever support someone calling the cops, though it is worth noting that taking that step is potentially also going to expose the survivor to additional male violence in the form of the pigs. But survivor autonomy and the survivor's wishes must be respected and supported.

Until we build the cultures necessary to deal with things like assault within our own movement though, (word up to the few cities/scenes that have) we're not really in a place to make that decision.

And is that seriously somebody up above saying that it's not all cops who are bad, just the riot ones? Where do you think they get riot cops from? They're not some seperate race that lives in those stormtrooper outfits, you know!

[Herman]

The police is meant to be abolished. It must be replaced with something similar to a people's militia. Only the working class knows how it feels what criminal offences the poor have to suffer.

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 06:31 PM
Split from CC

Do you seriously believe that the police are always our enemy? They protect people from many things and provide much needed service in society. Just because they tend to side with the cappies doesnt mean they can never help the people.
The police don't "side" with anyone. They obey orders- orders that come from the System (hurray for Steve Biko references) and act in its interest. Of course they can "help" people in a limited capacity, but that doesn't change the fact that the fundamental premise of the police force is fucked up.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

I don't hate the police like some people but I do think that they do some pretty shitty things. I also think that after a few generations of communism, we won't need police because crime is only an occurs because of poverty and greed that capitalism instills in society. Once we work to heal the socio-economic causes of crime, which communism naturly does, crime will all but disapear.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 11:12 PM
Although there are a lot of corrupt mother fucker cops, I don't think all of them are terrible and agents of the rich, etc.

Some have chosen this career because they truly want to help those who are harmed by criminals.
im not saying they chose to be so, im saying that, objectively, they are.

"They guilty dont feel guilty, they learn not to"...that however does not mean they're not guilty


I'm new at this ... could you just explain your justification behind this statement a little. Maybe I'm naiive, but I've never thought of the police as existing solely to protect the ruling class.

well look at it like this

The police does what?
"keep the peace"
What is keeping the peace?
Keeping order
Who's order?
The order of the state, and the class which supports that state (the ruling class).

Rapists, thieves, murderers, hooligans etc threaten the order of this society; thats why they are dealt with. They are not dealt with to "protect the people" since if this would be the case, would they not also arrest the criminals in charge of the companies?

You can also see this in revolutionary situations:
people take to the streets, demonstrate, riot sometimes...what does the police do? They try to "keep the peace", to keep order. They beat protestors, lock them up, sometimes they even kill them....now if the police truly was the protector of the weak, the protector of the people, the protector of justice in face of criminals...surely they would side with the people who rise up against this injust system...but do they do this? No! ofcourse not...why? Because they are the tool of the state and the class which supports and is supported by the state.

Another thing; the police are the ones who "uphold the law"...well what kind of law is that? It is the same law that protects the right of the few to have it all, while it would condem a man for steeling bread for his starving children.


So you could argue the only reason that the police do 'good' things are so that society runs as normal and doesn't disrupt capitalist production and exploitation. I think I've got my head around this now, it was just that bit about how police seem to do 'good' things to help people in society that was confusing me.

exactly.

The good things that they do is just a side effect. They dont do those things because they are good, but because they are part of creating a situation in which the exploitation can continue.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 12:03 PM
I'm new at this :blush: ... could you just explain your justification behind this statement a little. Maybe I'm naiive, but I've never thought of the police as existing solely to protect the ruling class.

Thanks.
also, don't forget that it's the state that's paying their wages. the state decides what 'problems' are targeted in which areas and they give police the powers of 'persuasion' against dissenters.

this is an article i wrote on state violence, it only talks about cops briefly but it might be a little helpful :)

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50830

[Michelle]

Actually...from prior arrests
I see the cops as a business
They don't negotiate or realize your situation
They simply do a job
You could be arrested for a dog licence....
Anything that legalities will provide for them
If you don't PAY, then you are a criminal
Is that Capitalism?
No one is exempt from whatever CRAP they can induce.
Just more funding for the local community
No one is really safe....but A COP will ck you out, regardless
A computerized world of data...no matter what

[Ali.Cat]

also, don't forget that it's the state that's paying their wages. the state decides what 'problems' are targeted in which areas and they give police the powers of 'persuasion' against dissenters.


Wouldn't the state want to protect everyone though - keep ALL the people happy so they won't have to "deal with" commies like yourselves :P from fighting against them? Wouldn't that just be in their best self-interest?

[An archist]

I've allways disliked the police, even when I was a kid, they look as if they're going to arrest you at any time for just a minor offense and they have this "I've got power and must be obeyed" look.
And most of what's already said I agree with.

To piss off cops: if you wlak by them, stand firm up, look them straight in the eyes and march by, saluting.
They absolutely hate that, but there's nothing they can do :P

[*[email protected]*]

Till the age of eight Id always thought cops were hero's, now I wouldnt mind gunning down a couple.

My uncle was arrested (cant quite remember what for though) and I saw him get his head bashed in by three cops.

Then two years ago I was stabbed in the chest and the cops just asked me a couple of questions, let me go and now the case is in a dingy cellar below the Police Station (I know this because they havent told me if they had found the person and I doubt they have made an effort).
However, I remember the cops giving a shit about something when, at a private school I attended, they questioned us througly because of a mobile phone theft that happened to a rich kid.

So year, Iv bad experience with cops.
LET THE PIGS FRY IN THE BARBIQUE OF ANARCHY I SAYS!!! :lol: