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Rosa Lichtenstein
8th June 2006, 01:52
Comrades might like to read my latest essay, just posted. Here is an edited taster:


Forces And Contradictions

DM-theorists frequently assert that "contradictions" (in nature or society) may be understood as the inter-relationship between "opposing forces". These forces condition one another, operating in equilibrium or in disequilibrium, as the case may be -- but only as revealed by careful scientific analysis. [Reference to Note 1 edited out here.]

[DM = Dialectical Materialism]

Citations like those listed in Note 1 -- making the same point -- can be multiplied almost indefinitely. To be sure, such passages are often accompanied by extensive qualifications, depending on context, but the overall message is abundantly clear. Nevertheless, my concern here is not so much with whether these passages are consistent with one another, or even whether any attempt has (ever) been made to substantiate sweeping statements they contain with adequate evidence -- or any at all --, but with whether the idea that forces can model contradictions itself makes any sense.

Gravity Is Annoyingly Undialectical

As we shall see, the identification of forces with contradictions is highly dubious, at best. There are several obvious initial difficulties with the whole idea. For example, if the forces in a system are in 'conflict' -- and are hence 'contradictory' -- there would clearly have to be at least two forces present, operational and oppositional for that to be the case. But when we consider one of the most important and general types of motion found in the universe -- the orbital trajectory of bodies in a gravitational field -- we find that in classical Physics, at least, this sort of motion is governed by the operation of at most one force, which deflects the otherwise (assumed) rectilinear path of the body in question toward the centre of mass of the system. So, if classical Physics is correct, it is not easy to see how such forces could be viewed as 'contradictions'.

Even post-classical Physics offers little comfort for DM-theorists; here such motion is either a function of the topology of Spacetime (gravitational 'force' having been edited out of the picture), or it is the result of a body being situated in a tensor, vector and/or scalar field, in as many dimensions of phase space as are deemed necessary.

And this is not just true of gravity; as Max Jammer notes:

"[The eliminability of force]...is not confined to the force of gravitation. The question of whether forces of any kind do exist, or do not and are only conventions, ha[s] become the subject of heated debates....

"In quantum chromodynamics, gauge theories, and the so-called Standard Model the notion of 'force' is treated only as an exchange of momentum and therefore replaced by the ontologically less demanding concept of 'interaction' between particles, which manifests itself by the exchange of different particles that mediate this interaction...." [Jammer (1999), p.v.]

Unfortunately, this means that most (if not all) of the bulk motion in the universe cannot be accounted for by DM (if it is viewed as the result of 'contradictions' interpreted as opposing forces). Hence, it would seem that DM can't explain most (if not all) of the motion found in nature.

This is, of course, just a snippet; the rest can be found here:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%2008_02.htm

bloody_capitalist_sham
8th June 2006, 14:43
It is weird that Marxists still use DM even though the stuff you highlight, like orbits and such, dont work in a dialetical way.

Kind of makes you think they missed the 'scientific' part in scientific socialism.

However, is it purely DM that suffers from an inability to explain things like this due to the laws it abides by?

Do other philosphies suffer from similar problems while maintaining that they have the correct philosophy?

Should marxists just dump philosophy all together?

If DM cannot even stand up to relatively basic ( :lol: ) sciences, why havent the dialecticians stopped using DM?

I read much of the linked article. Dialectics is not being quite so confusing anymore :)

Herman
8th June 2006, 18:03
Dialectical Materialism is not necessarily Marxist. I don't recall Marx ever mentioning anything about dialectics.

Rosa Lichtenstein
8th June 2006, 18:07
BCS, yes, I claim they all do, but I do not in general try to show this at my site since I am only interested in helping kill-off this Hermetic theory.

As I note in Essay Twelve (summary link posted on another thread), all philosophical theories (not just DM) derive from a crazy use of language that was initiated in ancient Greece, when metaphysicians fetishised language (for reasons I spell out), misconstruing what was in effect the product of the social relations between human beings (i.e., language) as if they were the real relations between things, or those things themselves (this mirrors Marx's analysis of the fetishisation of money in Capital). you can see other comrades doing this here as they spin linguistic webs out of meaningless phrases and imagine they are generating knowledge (on the cheap).

Recall, that I claim that Historical Materialism is a science.

Yes we should dump philosophy altogether; all we need is more and better science.

DM-fans cling onto dialectics (and stopper they ears and eyes against my ideas -- you have seen several of these sad comrades doing that on this board -- but they all do it) because it acts as a form of consolation to them (it acts as an opiate).

I will explain that in my next Essay, which will be posted in early July (with a bit of luck!).

You can read a summary of that essay here:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%20016-9.htm

Rosa Lichtenstein
8th June 2006, 21:48
RedHerman, you are right in the first half of what you say (the term 'dialectical materialsm' was invented by Plekhanov), but Marx does refer to the dialectic and to Hegelian concepts throughout much of his work (sometimes negatively, as in the Poverty of Philosophy, sometimes not, as in the Grundrisse).

But, in Capital he later said he had 'coquetted' with Hegelian terms -- which is rather odd, since that suggests he merely used them superficially (and thus that Lenin was wrong when he said that to understand Capital one had to have read and thoroughly understood the whole of Hegel's Logic).

So Marx was an inconistent dialectician, and there is precious little evidence that he agreed with Engels on the use of the 'dialectic' in nature.

Which is fortunate, since it saves Marx from being implicated in one of the weakest philosophical theories ever to have been dreamt up: dialectical materialism.

bloody_capitalist_sham
10th June 2006, 06:56
Hey Rosa,

I dont know if i should start a new thread about this, since its a little off topic.

But its still about dialectics so you seem to be the person to ask.

There is a guy called John Maynard Smith, who was a evolutionary biologist and for a period a marxist.

Well aparently he saw a conflict between darwinian evolution theory and DM.

In the end he chose Darwin over Marx.

Obviously Marxists think that Evolution theory is fact.


John Maynard Smith, at first thought that evolution was dialectical, and did experiments to try and prove dialectal elements in evolution. But he failed.

So what is the position for marxists with respects evolution?

Does Marxism oppose Darwin on human nature only bacause of dialectical materialism?

Is it DM that is to blame for opposing somthing thats is one of the most amazing discoveries?



Darwin believed that his theory of evolution was essentially gradual and that the gaps in the fossil record did not represent any breaks or leaps in evolution, and would be "filled in" by further discoveries. In this Darwin was wrong. Today, new theories, essentially dialectical, have been put forward to explain the leaps in evolution. Stephen J. Gould and Niles Eldredge termed their dialectical theory of evolution "punctuated equilibria". They explained that there were long periods of evolution where there were no apparent changes taking place, then suddenly, a new life form or forms emerged. In other words, quantitative differences gave rise to a qualitative change, leading to new species. The whole of development is characterised by breaks in continuity, leaps, catastrophes and revolutions.

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/study_guide1.html

Every time i research DM i seem to find the best in the particular field say DM is wrong, whether they are marxist or not.

I might post this in Science and Environment if your unsure.

Rosa Lichtenstein
10th June 2006, 08:44
BCS:

Well Maynard Smith adopted a rightwing version of NeoDarwinism, so I suspect, but I do not know if, that affected his change of mind.

He took exception to Gould and Eldredge's theory for all sorts of reasons (none of which seem powerful enough to my mind, but I am not a biologist), but as has been pointed out on other threads here, not even the theory of Punctuated Equilibrium supports dialectics. :D

Marxists should certainly accept the theory of evolution (not that they need me to tell them to do so!!), as the best explanation we yet have of the origin and development of life (except it does not seem to work when you get to human development -- which is where Historical Materialism takes over).

Dialectics does not clash with evolutionary theory, but not because dialectics is right; it is because dialectics is far too confused a 'theory' to clash with anything.

It will need to be clarified considerably before we know if it clashes even with creationism.... :lol: