China - beurocratic dictatorship

[bolshevik1917]

http://www.leninism.org/stream/99/zhang/intro.asp

Zhang Shanguang, a political activist in China, was recently sentenced to ten years in prison for giving an interview to a foreign reporter.

Some believe that Zhang's imprisonment is necessary to prevent China from being ruled by a class of wealthy and powerful thugs. Others believe that China is already ruled by a group of wealthy and powerful thugs--and that a real workers' state would not be so afraid of the free flow of information.

The question is decisive to the proletarian revolution because a clear and unifying goal of a workers' rule can never emerge to mobilize millions--until a clear distinction can be made in the popular consciousness between workers' rule and a police state.

[Donut Master]

Others believe that China is already ruled by a group of wealthy and powerful thugs--and that a real workers' state would not be so afraid of the free flow of information.

As do I.

[Klondike]

The question is decisive to the proletarian revolution because a clear and unifying goal of a workers' rule can never emerge to mobilize millions--until a clear distinction can be made in the popular consciousness between workers' rule and a police state.


Damn straight. All workers must know that the power is theirs to take from the opressive bourgeoisie. As I undesrtand, China is currently ruled by a so-called "group of wealthy and powerful thugs". So, would yet another revolution need to take place to establish a worker's state, or can reforms be made to the presently aristocratic China?

[redstar2000]

"Wealthy and powerful thugs" is a rather informal way of putting it, but that often is what capitalism looks like in its early stages.

If you look at the actual behavor of the American capitalist class between 1865 and the early 1920s, you will see examples of exactly the kinds of things that take place in Russia and China now.

All of those great "founders of American corporate power" were, in fact, glorified gangsters. Murder, arson, bribery and theft were as natural to them as breathing. They were not called "robber barons" for nothing.

Yes, China needs a real communist revolution.

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 7:47 pm on April 29, 2003)

[Sandanista]

CUBA: CAPITALIST
CHINA: CAPITALIST
USSR: CAPITALIST
NORTH KOREA: CAPITALIST
VIETNAM: CAPITALIST

you see these so called communist nations were and still are capitalist.

[Comrade Daniel]

Arguments?

[redstar2000]

I think it would be more accurate at this time to characterize Cuba and Vietnam as "semi-socialist" or, if you want to accent the negative, "semi-capitalist".

These two small nations still retain nominal communist governments and the working classes there clearly have a much stronger voice in matters than anywhere else in the world.

Both are under sharp attack from the "global market"; both are experiencing major penetration by capitalist elements; both are suffering from the economic and social consequences of foreign investment...though neither suffer anywhere near as much as countries like Honduras or Thailand.

A straightforward Marxist prediction is that capitalism will be restored in both of those countries over the next few decades...unless there are major communist revolutions in other countries.

But history is a funny thing...sometimes the "straightforward" prediction is wrong. We shall see.

Russia and China are capitalist countries, obviously.

Frankly, I think North Korea is an extraordinarily late form of oriental despotism...a living fossil of an ancient form of class society. At least this is the most reasonable hypothesis that I can come up with.

:cool:

[El Barbudo]

I agree with Sandanista. Dont be fooled by these countries.

[Sensitive]

Quote: from Sandanista on 8:20 am on May 1, 2003
CUBA: CAPITALIST
CHINA: CAPITALIST
USSR: CAPITALIST
NORTH KOREA: CAPITALIST
VIETNAM: CAPITALIST

you see these so called communist nations were and still are capitalist.
No,

CUBA: almost socialist
CHINA: capitalist (with Deng)
USSR: weak socialist
NORTH KOREA: slightly socialist
VIETNAM: weak socialist

Obviously, none of those states are/were "communist", as the US media loves to claim. But they were definitely weak socialist states. Like a flower that could not fully bloom (because of US imperialism).

[Kapitan Andrey]

Sandanista, you should be BANNED for your pessimistic-non-socialistic mind!!!

[Sandanista]

you should be banned for being a capitalist.

[jjack]

There's no society, at the moment at least, that's fully socialist or fully capitalist. These are ideal types. It would be nearly impossible for a society to exist without retaining at least a single little characteristic of capitalism.

[Ian]

A capitalist society is not neccesarily a society in which everything is owned privately jjack, Socialists see welfare states as well as Anarcho-Capitalist, one affords concessions to workers to extinguish the feeling of indignation towards the ruling class however. So I guess you're right it is not fully capitalist in the truest sense, but it is still a society run on the capitalist mode of production.

[redstar2000]

Class struggle in China...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/asia-pacific/3012711.stm

As that saying has it, "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, acts like a duck and spends a lot of time hanging out with ducks...it's probably a duck!"

China is a capitalist country.

:cool:

[The Muckraker]

If you look at the actual behavor of the American capitalist class between 1865 and the early 1920s, you will see examples of exactly the kinds of things that take place in Russia and China now.

Something else on which we agree. I believe Marx wrote about this when he wrote of pimitive accumulation. In Russia, whole industries were practically given to people. Gangster capitalism the first stage of liberal capitalism.

[il Commy]

USSR was a socialist state which was destroyed by a counter-revolution, which came from the civil war, the imperialism and the fact that russia was not very industrialiesd at the time.

From the 30's on USSR stopped being a socialist democracy and became a state-capitalist police state. China is like that today I believe, and Cuba was banned to the russian imperialism until it fell and now I believe it's alot more similar to state-capitlism than to socialism, because of the USA and because of Castro and his friends.

The countries which were made 'socialist' because of russianchienese guns I don't even think calling them socialist.