Tight spot

[RevMARKSman]

link here: http://planetthinktanks.com/comm-thread.as...d=13492&forum=4 (http://planetthinktanks.com/comm-thread.asp?thread=13492&forum=4)
Mr. Bloop seems to have backed me into a corner. I'm not as good at this as many of you guys, so any rational, relevant, right, and leftist responses to this? Did he make a mistake somewhere in there?

Plus, if I made a theoretical mistake, could someone please point it out?
Thanks,
Mon

[Epoche]

Hypothetical situation:

Person A gets $5.00 an hour from Person B to get his own materials and make tables. He makes 1 table per hour.

Person B takes each table and sells it for $10.00. He does nothing, yet makes $5.00 per hour himself.

Don't you think that's wrong?

I'm not sure exactly which scenario or which corner you feel you are backed into, but if it is regarding this formula, the point is not that its "wrong," but that its uneccessary.

The incentive for capital is not necessary for economy to function...its dead weight. Period. The capitalist propaganda we always hear about "hard work" and how the innovation and ambition to evolve our technology is only possible because of the "incentive" capitalism provides, is bullshit.

[Zero]

I'm gona go down the list as I see it. If I use a dash it means that I'm addressing a general topic, if its a quote I'm talkin about the quote. Feel free to take my ideas, or point him over here. Just make sure you do it before RS2K restricts his reformist ass.

- Debate whatever you want over the USSR, thats past. Authoritarian Socialism spawned Stalinism.

- Some would say the process was started but never finished, some say the process was started but corrupted, some say its never started at all in Russia and China. Your opinion. Obviously they disreugarded the notion of Socialism a long time ago.

- Communism isn't really the anti-government, Communism is the next step. We as toddlers are taught how to think, how to learn. We as children are told what not to do, and punished accordingly. We as teenagers were taught how to do, and how to accomplish. Therefore we as Adults in this metaphysical state have taught ourselves how to learn, we know how to accomplish, and we take back the power that others hold over us. Communism is the people all grown up. This is no positive reguard to the nuclear family. It's a metaphor that I found relates to the topic at hand.

- I've gotta quote this lunatic:

Originally posted by "Hugobrainz"+--> ("Hugobrainz")We're not born equal, far from it: we have different drives and purposes, different abilities, etc.[/b]
1. We are born equal. No ideology, no skin color, no nationality, no language, no nothing can truely separate us at birth. We are all members of this crazy thing called Humanity.
2. We have different drives that motivate us to do different things. Therefore making us different individuals. Key term being individuals. There is absolutely no reason for us to be treated differently based simply on dis-similar influances and experiances.
3. We are not born with a purpose. We are born into an environment that influences our decisions and effects our choices in our adult and child life.
4. We all have different abilities based simply on different choices and decisions made as we live our life.

None of this has anything to do with "Why we aren't born equal". All of this is a reason why equality is the fundamental principle that is needed in a society almost as much, if not more then complete and total freedom.


Originally posted by "artyfarty_bloop"+--> ("artyfarty_bloop")Oh, and marxism is NOT communism. The stance that their should be a vanguard party, or some elite thinktank deciding the will of the people (because they are not capable of realising what they want themselves) is totally the opposite of the principles of communism.[/b]
Wrong! Try Marxist-Leninist, or Marxist-Leninist-Maoist. Spend an hour on Wikipedia my friend.

("artyfarty_bloop")Anything which uses capital(money) is a capitalist society...[/b][/quote]
Wrong!

("artyfarty_bloop")I DO however believe that every place and every society needs it's OWN solution... Their is no ONE overriding system which works the best for each location/society.[/b][/quote]
Yes. Every country needs its own private force of oppressors. What a novel idea. There will be minor differences in the way societies structure evolves in different parts of the world. However there is no such thing as a 'solution' better then a real Democracy voted on by the people, not select few rich people who are voted to represent hundreds of thousands of people. Thats just inherently problematic.

- Such a thing as a Communist Party is a futile attempt to work within the system of opression and racism to make a progressive change come about. It is a nobel effort that has been tried everywhere where the class struggle is known. This system is not made for such radical ideas such as equality and personal freedom.

("artyfarty_bloop")I believe what we need is a system whereby the power truly IS in the hands of the people, a system whereby big business money doesn't penetrate into the political sphere and a system where politicians are more easily replacable when they start deviating from the will of the people they are supposed to be representing.[/b][/quote]
Come money, come greed, come meterial wealth, come catered services, come inequality, come descrimination, come wealth disparity, come social inequality.

A system with the power of the government truely in the hands of the people requires a classless society, which cannot come about without a moneyless society, which cannot spawn a state-ran society. His "artyfarty" utopia is just that. Good luck influencing the rich people not to attempt to get into the power structure of politics. They see power, and they have the money, they will find a way into the world of politics.

("artyfarty_bloop")...Through communism you are tied into a social contract to everyone else[/b][/quote]
Quick! Your Classical-Style Liberalism is showing! Social contracts require that a punishment of some sort is issued if you don't complete the bargin. Exactly the "social institutions" all progressives are working to end. This guy thinks he can combine Reform Liberalism and Classical Liberalism and walk out with a viable "contract" for the future. Well bad news buddy, society doesn't rely on contracts! :rolleyes:

("artyfarty_bloop")and the success of communism is vastly dependant on this "trust",[/b][/quote]
... No. Communism relys on the fact that the majority of the people will find a viable field of labor, physical or mental, that they find stimulating and wish to further the field. No contracts needed.

("Monica")Well, in communism, there are different laws. If someone is found exploiting someone else using labor, etc, then they'll be punished, while in capitalism, this is seen as a natural part of the system, and if there were laws against it, it would turn to communism.[/b][/quote]
Refrain from using the word 'Law'. If for some reason someone wanted to 'hire' a person to do something for him, and tried to collect a currency or commodity from someone else if he got the person to do something for them, then they would be dealt with by the people. Such a situation would be rare at best.

("artyfarty_bloop")...the current legislation is in favour of big business due to the distortions in politics caused by the entity of corporations and big stock conglomerates, NOT because it's inherent to capitalism. THAT's why their are less laws protecting the worker.[/b][/quote]
How can a society which punishes co-operation, promotes greed, and turns people into dollar signs, EVER support the rights of the worker to a degree which doesn't support Conglomerates in (at least) an equal way? It's either we allow them to exploit our politics, or they move somewhere else where they can. This is the fundamental reason why its more imperative then ever to ignite a global Marxian revolution.


"artyfarty_bloop"@
due to the system of fluctuating currencies and the ease of movement of capital the big money conglomerates and banks on the stockmarket can 'cause huge depressions in the economics of each country. If they don't like the policy coming in in countries where some of the stock is held they will sell shares and the stock price will go down. This can 'cause HUGE depressions in the countries who have instituted laws which these companies are not favourable to.It essentially means that the stock market has a gun to the head of the governments of the world... That's where the REAL power lies. What I mean is: policies they don't like, are things like fair wages, laws to protect workers from exploitation etc.
This has been public knowlege for years. Indonesia is a perfect example of how Corporatism (see Fascism) is being used to exploit cheap labor in countries that are so far in debt to the World Bank that they have no choice other then to submit to Corporate rape that these CEOs inflict on the nearly 245 million inhabitants. Thanks to Globalisation there is no way to stop these people short of worldwide revolution. These Corporate entities are nationless. They exist everywhere, and therefore can move everywhere without much effort. We must hunt them down, reguardless of where they hide, reguardless of how many paid brownshirts they have, the revolution will reach them. No social reform will run out this international exploitation.


"artyfarty_bloop"
The worst thing about it is it's not even a thing these corporations and conglomerates can control; it's not like it's a conspiracy of elites... Through law they are BOUND to make as much money as they can without regard to human life (aslong as they operate within the laws of the countries they are using). This means they HAVE to support the laws which will give them higher share prices. If they don't then the CEOs (the stewards of stockholders money) are breaking the law.
When a country is in debt so badly that they require a tentative contract to be signed to build a large factory which exploits the people inside so badly that it makes Guantanimo Bay look like an amusement park, the country is in so far over their heads that any amount of "law enforcement" will not affect the working conditions of the people short of insurrection or U.N. involvement. However since the USA does most "U.N. involvement" for it, there is little debate that US based corporations will get little more then a slap on the wrist. "silly CEO, trix are for kids!"

EDIT: By the way, this should probably be moved to practice... or maybe Learning.

[RevMARKSman]

Ho hum. I obliterated that "people under communism are treated like robots" myth. Thank you Redstar for your papers. Some really great stuff there. ;)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

That's funny Monica, because I was having the same arguement with a bunch of cappies at another forum about the exact same thing. They got very desperate at the end as they starting claiming communism wouldn't work because it turned people into drones :lol: they said that in communism you get up. Go to work. And come home. I said how is that different in capitalism>?

[Raisa]

Dont debate capitalists.

Spend your time educating the proliteriat.

Our enemies opinions dont matter, and debating them gives them the illusion that their opinions are worth something....

If you dont stand for the liberation of the working man, your opinion aint shit!
That is the beginning, and that is the end of the debate.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

debating them successfully proves to them that their logic is shit and makes them actually think for a minute.

[Clarksist]

debating them successfully proves to them that their logic is shit and makes them actually think for a minute.

I'd say that is a pretty common misconception. Even if you argue a more logical argument then your capitalist counterpart, they will eventually just get angry and stop listening.

Instead of arguing with people, explain your views as you see them when its appropriate, and then you'll see people agreeing with you more often then not.