Freedom of Speech

[MKS]

Is freedom of speech a "communist" ideal or is it simply another phrase thrown around by Leninists and Marxists in order to persuade the people to join their cause? So far most modern Socialist/Communist revolutions have acted against free speech, expression and sedition? Is this healthy for an emerging egalitarian society? Lenin not only subdued Libertarian factions of the Russian Revolution but he also used force to diminish their role, Castro has done the same thing as has Mao, and now Chavez who acts against any person who writes or speaks negatively about their new "socialist" regime. There are other examples of Libertarian groups being marginalized and even destroyed by so called "parties of the people".

So, isn’t free speech a necessity of any Revolution that espouses equality, justice and liberty?


Someone once said (paraphrase) "I may not like what you have to say but I will defend your right to say it"

Shouldn’t that be a fundamental precept for any socio-economic progression or revolution?

[JazzRemington]

Freedom of speech means you can post the same topic three times!

[Leo]

Someone once said (paraphrase) "I may not like what you have to say but I will defend your right to say it"

Shouldn’t that be a fundamental precept for any socio-economic progression or revolution?

It depends on what they say, would you allow someone to walk around saying "raping is good, murder is good, everyone should do such things, such things should be legal"? Remember, prime responsibility is towards victims, not criminals.


Chavez who acts against any person who writes or speaks negatively about their new "socialist" regime.

This is not true... Chavez is a social democrat, literally, he is the sole president who allowed press to say whatever they want to say in Venezuella and privately owned press enjoys this freedom very well in every opportinity. They make anti-Chavez pro-American propaganda, they lie about events, they portray Chavez as a monkey etc. and Chavez doesn't do anything about this.

[Cloud]

Freedom of speech means you can post the same topic three times!

Haha, if you guys want to learn about freedom of speech, please go look in the other forums. Everyones veiws/ideas are there and there is a freedom of speech argument everyweek. It is very tiring to constantly reply

[Niemand]

Originally posted by Leo [email protected] 26 2006, 06:48 PM

Someone once said (paraphrase) "I may not like what you have to say but I will defend your right to say it"

Shouldn’t that be a fundamental precept for any socio-economic progression or revolution?


Chavez who acts against any person who writes or speaks negatively about their new "socialist" regime.

This is not true... Chavez is a social democrat, literally, he is the sole president who allowed press to say whatever they want to say in Venezuella and privately owned press enjoys this freedom very well in every opportinity. They make anti-Chavez pro-American propaganda, they lie about events, they portray Chavez as a monkey etc. and Chavez doesn't do anything about this.


It depends on what they say, would you allow someone to walk around saying "raping is good, murder is good, everyone should do such things, such things should be legal"? Remember, prime responsibility is towards victims, not criminals.
That's ridiculous, even if some does condone rape, they're not hurting anyone. Besides, how can you enforce such a law? Have neighbours report one another to the government for saying such things? Because that worked out so well in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union and was never abused. :rolleyes:


Back to the topic at hand: Freedom of speech is undoubtedly a communist ideal, for you cannot have freedom without communism or vice versa.

[Leo]

That's ridiculous, even if some does condone rape, they're not hurting anyone. Besides, how can you enforce such a law? Have neighbours report one another to the government for saying such things?

Then I bet you will be willing to take responsibility that no one will be convinced, not a single person will be convinced and no one, not a single person will get hurt. Because if someone, even a single person is hurt, you will be responsible! The society itself won't allow anyone to harm, or advocate harm to innocents, period. There is no government in the communist society. Neighbours will talk with each other and they will take action, the society will take action, collectively they will question, they will understand and they will decide.

[redstar2000]

It has become a boring topic.

Especially in two particular respects.

(1) There's not enough "free speech" on this board. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/014.gif

(2) You commies won't give reactionaries any "free speech" after the revolution. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/014.gif

Yeah...life sucks and then you die. :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[MKS]

It has become a boring topic.

Especially in two particular respects.

(1) There's not enough "free speech" on this board.

(2) You commies won't give reactionaries any "free speech" after the revolution.

Yeah...life sucks and then you die.

RedStar2000 has proved my point, most Marxists/Communists etc. are very strict about "free speech" they dont want to hear the other side and will almost always act to supress it.

My view is that everyone should be able to print, say, communicate any idea thet he/she has, in the end the strength of the people and their idealism should triumph and if it dosent than they have no one to blame but themselves.

About this topic posting three time;I apologize it must have been a computer error, but as soon as I saw what happened I sent a message to the admins.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

they dont want to hear the other side and will almost always act to supress it.

let me explain,

Communists hate racism. hence we dont want to hear about racism from reactionaries
Communists hate sexism. Again we dont want to hear sexist stuff.
Communists hate homophobia. we dont want to hear this either.

So, whats wrong with that?

[MKS]

Communists hate racism. hence we dont want to hear about racism from reactionaries
Communists hate sexim. Again we dont want to hear sexist stuff.
communists hate homophobia. we dont want to hear this either.

So, what wrong with that?

There is a difference between not wanting to hear something and actively suppressing a persons right to say something. I personally dont want to hear about racism, sexism, etc but the people who espouse such bigotry have a right to do so. The obvious strength of the people and thier moral/ethical convictions will hopefully make the bigots words hollow and soon will relegate them to an isolated minority.

Imagine if in the US the Capitalist majority (government) acted to suppress the civil liberties of Communists, Anarchists etc (which they have done). Such an act is a crime when it is committed against Leftists, but not when it is against other groups. Isnt such a moral judgement subjective in nature and its legitamacy only defined by the popular opinion? Wouldnt a system of complete free speech allow for the greatest liberty of communication and expression regardless of the popular opinion?

[ummProfessional]

well i don't think this website allows homophobics or fascists or rightwing extremists etc.. so in a sense that really isn't free speech, if there was 100% free speech someone could say right now FUCK FAGGOTS , and not get banned..but of course that is ignorant as well as other racist comments so i would rather not have to deal with such ignoramuses, but yet again the truth is the truth and quite frankly it is a dictatoriship here lol

[ummProfessional]

im going to have to agree with you on that one MKS, whatever it is i think every human has the right to say what they feel, that's real freedom of speech, no matter how wrong it seems in your eyes

[AnnieAngel]

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. It's not a communist thing, America isn't a communist nation and there is free speech like crazy. In fact, I think there is more freedom of speech in non-communist nations, I mean look at Cuba, I doubt they feel free to speak their minds. Or Soviet Russia.

[ummProfessional]

ohh Annie for sure, there is no doubt about that, it's not even a matter of question whether there is or was freedom of speech in the countries that have experimented with communism....if you say fuck the president in Cuba you probably will spend 40 years in jail, and in North Korea you would probably wouldn't even be able to say FUCK before you have a bullet in your head...

[Leo]

There is a difference between not wanting to hear something and actively suppressing a persons right to say something. I personally dont want to hear about racism, sexism, etc but the people who espouse such bigotry have a right to do so. The obvious strength of the people and thier moral/ethical convictions will hopefully make the bigots words hollow and soon will relegate them to an isolated minority.

It is not just that we don't want to hear reactionary opinions, the spectacle of free speach originates from this, what they say doesn't matter, no one cares about what anyone says, we care about what they are, what they do, what matters is this: we don't want people to be reactionaries, period! Therefore we will actively fight in any ways agains racism, sexism, capitalism etc. and we will not excuse them for being reactionaries because they said they expressed themselves.


Imagine if in the US the Capitalist majority (government) acted to suppress the civil liberties of Communists, Anarchists etc (which they have done). Such an act is a crime when it is committed against Leftists, but not when it is against other groups. Isnt such a moral judgement subjective in nature and its legitamacy only defined by the popular opinion? Wouldnt a system of complete free speech allow for the greatest liberty of communication and expression regardless of the popular opinion?

Well, if you think they don't do this in the way they think as most effective, then you are pretty naive. The same thing goes for them, they don't want us to be communists and anarchists and they do whatever they can to prevent us from being what we are. However I don't think they can prevent the masses from being revolutionary because material conditions says that masses live in shit and they won't tolarate this forever. Capitalists are trying to hide the sun using mud, it is impossible!

Free speach is not a concept that is 'free' from other aspects of life, everything is connected, the elevation of speach from everything else is a spectacle. It is not the 'supreme' ideal that will overcome reactionary ideas, it is the masses itself, it is the heat coming from the rising sun. No matter what individuals among the left do to 'protect' the rights of expression of the reactionaries, the heat of the rising sun will burn the mud, workers won't allow anyone to be a reactionary.

[Tungsten]

Leo Uilleann

Well, if you think they don't do this in the way they think as most effective, then you are pretty naive. The same thing goes for them, they don't want us to be communists and anarchists and they do whatever they can to prevent us from being what we are.
They're doing "whatever they can", are they? Do you think this forum would still be active? Do you think any kind of anti-capitalist demonstration would be tolerated (let alone televised)? Wouldn't you be in prison or in a re-education camp if that was so? Ridiculous. You're the one being naive.

[Leo]

They're doing "whatever they can", are they? Do you think this forum would still be active? Do you think any kind of anti-capitalist demonstration would be tolerated (let alone televised)? Wouldn't you be in prison or in a re-education camp if that was so? Ridiculous. You're the one being naive.

Ah, another mindless and dogmatic cappie... Every single one of you guys would probably answer that with the same cliche... Here's the thing, if they start to imprison us because we are revolutionaries, kill us because we are revolutionaries and so forth, they will be jumping off the cliff! They don't have much time left and they know it, sooner or later they will start to imprison and kill us, but for them the later the better because when they start suppressing us, we will be really close to victory.

[Tungsten]

Leo Uilleann

Ah, another mindless and dogmatic cappie... Every single one of you guys would probably answer that with the same cliche... Here's the thing, if they start to imprison us because we are revolutionaries, kill us because we are revolutionaries and so forth, they will be jumping off the cliff! They don't have much time left and they know it, sooner or later they will start to imprison and kill us, but for them the later the better because when they start suppressing us, we will be really close to victory.
So if they started killing you all tomorrow, then you'd be close to victory? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 07:21 AM
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. It's not a communist thing, America isn't a communist nation and there is free speech like crazy. In fact, I think there is more freedom of speech in non-communist nations, I mean look at Cuba, I doubt they feel free to speak their minds. Or Soviet Russia.
Cuba is not a communist nation.
Soviet Russia was not a communist nation.
Communist nation is an oxymoron.
Thank you for once again showing your arrogance and lack of knowledge.

[Leo]

So if they started killing you all tomorrow, then you'd be close to victory? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

It is not us but the masses that will achieve their victory. Ever heard something called matyrdom? The more they kill us, the stronger our ideas will become. They can't stop the victory of the workers, they will take everything capitalists have, nothing can stop them.

[ummProfessional]

Cuba is not a communist nation.
Soviet Russia was not a communist nation.
Communist nation is an oxymoron.
Thank you for once again showing your arrogance and lack of knowledge.

well this quote overall is an oxymoron, thank you....

well you see, im sure you would say the USA and Western Europe are capitalists right!! hahahaha ironic how you don't believe Cuba , USSR, North Korea are communists....why is that?? because they are failures?? of course your probably going to say it's because they are not "stateless", but whether you want to admit it or not, these nations are in fact experimentations of communism, and they are prime examples of why communism doesn't work, the experiment has been tested, and they have been Cuba, USSR, North Korea and so on...and the fact is that it's the opposite that happens when you experiment with communism, instead of becoming stateless as has been showned by history, countries with planned economies become authoritarian and even more oppressive...HENCE STALIN, FIDEL, KIM JON IL!

Marx was a great economic theorist, but he did not understand anything about how humans work...

[Leo]

well you see, im sure you would say the USA and Western Europe are capitalists right!! hahahaha ironic how you don't believe Cuba , USSR, North Korea are communists....why is that?? because they are failures?? of course your probably going to say it's because they are not "stateless", but whether you want to admit it or not, these nations are in fact experimentations of communism, and they are prime examples of why communism doesn't work, the experiment has been tested, and they have been Cuba, USSR, North Korea and so on...and the fact is that it's the opposite that happens when you experiment with communism, instead of becoming stateless as has been showned by history, countries with planned economies become authoritarian and even more oppressive...HENCE STALIN, FIDEL, KIM JON IL!

They are not communist in the same way the west is not 'democratic' in the least. Notice that westerners try to avioid calling themselves 'capitalists' unless they are shameless proto-fascist/fascist neo-cons. If you are a cat, calling yourself a lion won't change the fact that you are a cat. You cappies are so dogmatic and narrow-minded/midless, it really is amusing to see that you people still think like eight year olds, and eight year olds understand when something is explained to them because they are not arrogant.


Marx was a great economic theorist, but he did not understand anything about how humans work...

And maybe you would like to explain us how the humans work?

[ummProfessional]

They are not communist in the same way the west is not 'democratic' in the least. Notice that westerners try to avioid calling themselves 'capitalists' unless they are shameless proto-fascist/fascist neo-cons. If you are a cat, calling yourself a lion won't change the fact that you are a cat. You cappies are so dogmatic and narrow-minded/midless, it really is amusing to see that you people still think like eight year olds, and eight year olds understand when something is explained to them because they are not arrogant.

so how is the west not democratic? Who is democratic to you? IRAN? :lol: i understand, but seriously how democratic are you willing to go? please explain to what extent? and what should it cover? im sure if you were to do a democratic vote on whether males wanted to have promiscuous sex with woman, 90+% would vote yes, should we make that a law then? :rolleyes:

westerners try to avoid calling ourselves capitalists?? :blink: umm ok? really? well i never heard that one before, what do we call ourselves than? communist socialists? give me a break, the fact is in the truest sense of the word CAPITALIST, we aren't, because the sate still owns portions of businesses etc..in fact the major most important businesse of our lives...i do hope that you know there is no laissez-faire, at least here in America... in the economic sense, we are as close as you can get to capitlism, because you can have your own personal busniess for your own personal profit, but in Cuba for example, you can't have personal business, and you work for the state, there are agrarian reforms, it's a worker state, so in that sense it's the closest you can get to communism, so hence why it should be regarded as communists, if not im just wondering what it should be labeled as? you guys seems to aprehensive and cautios and protective of when somebody uses the word communist, than i guess you guys ought to be re-writing the history books of every major public and private library, gee fucking scholars have been wrong all along :rolleyes: and by the way man, i don't know where you got that i was arrogant from? beats me



And maybe you would like to explain us how the humans work?

one word: GREED
i guess Marx never learned that word...

so you and i work, you break your back day in day out in a factory picking up boxes in a job that requires no skill at all, i work in an office where i have to be highly qualified with incredible skills to perform my job, yet you and i get the same benefits and materials.....trust me your going to be pissed because you work harder than me in a back braking job while i sit in an office, and im going to be even moooore pissed because a guy who picks up boxes gets the same benefits as i do....

the truth is communism doesn't reward skills, and this is conflictive and impossible in a human society.....

[Leo]

so how is the west not democratic?

Politicians might be subjectively different, but they are objectively the same shit. You elect the nobility and call them 'representitives', you elect the king and call him 'president'. They are all the same shit.


i understand

No, you don't.


westerners try to avoid calling ourselves capitalists?? blink.gif umm ok? really? well i never heard that one before, what do we call ourselves than? communist socialists? give me a break, the fact is in the truest sense of the word CAPITALIST, we aren't, because the sate still owns portions of businesses etc..in fact the major most important businesse of our lives...i do hope that you know there is no laissez-faire, at least here in America... in the economic sense, we are as close as you can get to capitlism, because you can have your own personal busniess for your own personal profit, but in Cuba for example, you can't have personal business, and you work for the state, there are agrarian reforms, it's a worker state, so in that sense it's the closest you can get to communism, so hence why it should be regarded as communists, if not im just wondering what it should be labeled as? you guys seems to aprehensive and cautios and protective of when somebody uses the word communist, than i guess you guys ought to be re-writing the history books of every major public and private library, gee fucking scholars have been wrong all along rolleyes.gif and by the way man, i don't know where you got that i was arrogant from? beats me

Westerners call themselves 'democratic' and 'free' and all that. They don't call themselves 'clinically insane money mongreld'. Have you ever seen a capitalist country or a 'Capitalist' Republic of X Nation?

The thing you people call Laissez Faire is a myth. The system in the whole globe is what capitalism is. There are the exploiters, the west, and there are the exploited. This is called imperialism, it is a must for capitalism. Laissez Faire can't exist because the global system, capitalism, needs states, local elites, armies, policemen etc.


one word: GREED
i guess Marx never learned that word...

so you and i work, you break your back day in day out in a factory picking up boxes in a job that requires no skill at all, i work in an office where i have to be highly qualified with incredible skills to perform my job, yet you and i get the same benefits and materials.....trust me your going to be pissed because you work harder than me in a back braking job while i sit in an office, and im going to be even moooore pissed because a guy who picks up boxes gets the same benefits as i do....

the truth is communism doesn't reward skills, and this is conflictive and impossible in a human society.....

So you think that your job in the office is harder then the picking up boxes. Can you lift a fucking box? What would you do if someone didn't lift boxes. Every job you think as lower is actually as high as the jobs that appear to be rewarding.

As for 'greed' being a part of the human nature, well I will ask you to prove it, and you will fail.

[Tungsten]

Leo Uilleann

It is not us but the masses that will achieve their victory.
You're right there. The masses aren't communists.

Ever heard something called matyrdom? The more they kill us, the stronger our ideas will become.
How ridiculous. How?

They can't stop the victory of the workers, they will take everything capitalists have, nothing can stop them.
Martyrdom and promises of inevitable victories are the products of religious lunacy.

The thing you people call Laissez Faire is a myth. The system in the whole globe is what capitalism is.
Can you explain how the entire world, with widely varying governments and laws, (some of which are the complete opposite of each other), can be said to be part of the same system? I don't think you know what you're talking about.

[ummProfessional]

Politicians might be subjectively different, but they are objectively the same shit. You elect the nobility and call them 'representitives', you elect the king and call him 'president'. They are all the same shit.


hahaha you are totally dillusional, so we elect the NOBILITY!! what the hell do you think this is? Medieval Bavaria? wtf, i can run for freaking representative of my community and work my way up, it's as simple as that, of course if i have a totally contradictory idea that i fight for thatn surely it's hard for me and the major forces would be working against me, but ultimately the people decide, i hope you do know that there is a communist party and green party and so on and so on, ultimately the people have decided they don't want any of that, so i guess that's not democracy to you right? because the communist party here in america gets like 100 votes every election out of 200+million people...


No, you don't.

yup, i can see you really do :lol:
specially with what you say here :


Westerners call themselves 'democratic' and 'free' and all that. They don't call themselves 'clinically insane money mongreld'. Have you ever seen a capitalist country or a 'Capitalist' Republic of X Nation?

The thing you people call Laissez Faire is a myth. The system in the whole globe is what capitalism is. There are the exploiters, the west, and there are the exploited. This is called imperialism, it is a must for capitalism. Laissez Faire can't exist because the global system, capitalism, needs states, local elites, armies, policemen etc.

so what is this? a racist thing? so westerners are "insane money mongrels" (WTF :blink: ) i guess Japan , South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong etc.. are not like the "westerners" right? lol and no Liassez Faire is not a myth, rather maybe utopian just like communism ....and yes finally your understanding it, just like liassez faire communism can't exist because the globe needs states, what do you think has happened in each and everyone of the countries that have adopted Marxist ideals as their form of government? AUTHORITARIAN STATES ....



So you think that your job in the office is harder then the picking up boxes. Can you lift a fucking box? What would you do if someone didn't lift boxes. Every job you think as lower is actually as high as the jobs that appear to be rewarding

can i lift up a fucking box? hahahahahha are you serious!! AHAHHAHAHAAA!! :lol: that is so halarious, NO LEO i can't pick up a box because it requires so many skills that i have to go through college to do so hahahaha :rolleyes:

what would i do if nobody picked up boxes? nothing, but the world would be in chaos if nobody did the undesirable jobs, something which would obviously happen in communism, because as far as im concerned in communism you would be able to choose whatever job you desire, and well anyone with half a brain can figure out that nobody is going to want to do the undesirable jobs....DUH!

and please explain your reasoning behind what you said about jobs with no skills required is actually as "high" as the jobs that appear to be rewarding? as far as im concerned like i said you don't have to spend 4 years in an university to know how to drive a froklift, hence why after 4 years in an university studying political science you should obviously be rewarded in life more than the guy who drives forklifts...it's only obvious...


As for 'greed' being a part of the human nature, well I will ask you to prove it, and you will fail.

so you are telling me you don't want the best for yourself? you don't want the best for you and your family? you don't want to be succesful in life, have money, have power, in fact these are the driving forces of every human being, at least anyone sane...the theory of communism of everyone wanting the best for the community, for a group is so flawed it's not even funny, sure i don't want anyone to die, i don't want someone to get killed, but do i really care what happens? did the world care about genocide in Rwanda? humans always work like this, as long as it doesn't happen to you, you frankly don't care....ohh that's right but you are all angels decendants of Mother Theresa who don't care about themselves and are never selfish and always share all of their food and material posetions with your neighbors, gosh if forgot about that one :rolleyes: :lol:

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

You're quite blind if you don't realize that corrupt individuals are put in power (or made corrupt) by the electoral system. You cannot achieve revolutionary change by working through a flawed system. You can only temporarily improve lives and postpone real accomplishment.

[ummProfessional]

ohh Dooga there is no doubt in my mind there are corrupt politicians, and most are actually MADE corrupt like you yourself said, and this once again proves the inevitable nature of humans, when you are surrounded by power money, greed overcomes you, when you have the power to enrich yourself, very very very few are able to resist this temptetion....but at least there is separation of powers, checks and balances in this country etc..unlike other countries where corruption is blowned out of proportions hence why 3rd world countries stay 3rd world while the rest of the world progresses, and why you all are here ranting on about "THE CORPORATIONS MAAAN, THEIR RUINING THE WORLD DUUUUDE"...

[Leo]

hahaha you are totally dillusional, so we elect the NOBILITY!! what the hell do you think this is? Medieval Bavaria? wtf, i can run for freaking representative of my community and work my way up, it's as simple as that, of course if i have a totally contradictory idea that i fight for thatn surely it's hard for me and the major forces would be working against me, but ultimately the people decide, i hope you do know that there is a communist party and green party and so on and so on, ultimately the people have decided they don't want any of that, so i guess that's not democracy to you right? because the communist party here in america gets like 100 votes every election out of 200+million people...

You might run for the office, considering that you are a rich privilaged bastard, that's true, yeah. All left-wing parties, including the Greens, have no chance in the US elections because they don't have enough money to campaign.


so what is this? a racist thing? so westerners are "insane money mongrels" (WTF blink.gif ) i guess Japan , South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong etc.. are not like the "westerners" right?

I am not talking about the western workers you moron I am talking about the capitalists and the statesmen. Asian tigers are also very similar to the west on that, yeah. Also ruling elites of the third world are no better.


can i lift up a fucking box? hahahahahha are you serious!! AHAHHAHAHAAA!! laugh.gif that is so halarious, NO LEO i can't pick up a box because it requires so many skills that i have to go through college to do so hahahaha

Yeah it does require skills, skills you can't get in a college. You know what would happen if people didn't lift up your fucking boxes or clean up your fucking sewers? You would die! And believe me or not, the workers will stop serving people like you. In fact, they will stop serving in general.


as far as im concerned like i said you don't have to spend 4 years in an university to know how to drive a froklift, hence why after 4 years in an university studying political science you should obviously be rewarded in life more than the guy who drives forklifts...it's only obvious...

How do you think you got in the collage in the first place? Are you more clever than the workers? No, you are not. It is because your dady paid for your four years in collage and don't start talking about fucking scholarships.


so you are telling me you don't want the best for yourself? you don't want the best for you and your family? you don't want to be succesful in life, have money, have power, in fact these are the driving forces of every human being, at least anyone sane

Ah, you are more stupid and worthless than I thought you were. You actually believe best for myself and best for my family and success in life is having money and having power. You follow that way in life, and you will always be unhappy. The money you have will be coming from the empty plates of hungry children, the power you have will be the tyrannical power you have. You will be one sorry bastard who lives on piles of suffering workers, you will be a motherfucking bloodsucker. No I don't want that shit, you and people like you can shove it in your asses, we are sane, you are insane.


the theory of communism of everyone wanting the best for the community, for a group is so flawed it's not even funny, sure i don't want anyone to die, i don't want someone to get killed, but do i really care what happens? did the world care about genocide in Rwanda? humans always work like this, as long as it doesn't happen to you, you frankly don't care

World did care, and does care about tragedies. Capitalists and statesman didn't, won't. You, who don't care, are trying to say that 'we all are greedy' just because you have that sickness, but it is a lie! You can't justify your crimes with human nature. Human nature doesn't exist! Unfortunately, when the workers unite to overthrow you and all leaders for ever, it will be too late for you and your fellow cappies.

You poor fellow, I pity you. World must be a fucking horrible place for you to live.

[greymatter]

Originally posted by ummPro[email protected] 5 2006, 12:31 AM
ohh Dooga there is no doubt in my mind there are corrupt politicians, and most are actually MADE corrupt like you yourself said, and this once again proves the inevitable nature of humans, when you are surrounded by power money, greed overcomes you, when you have the power to enrich yourself, very very very few are able to resist this temptetion....but at least there is separation of powers, checks and balances in this country etc..unlike other countries where corruption is blowned out of proportions hence why 3rd world countries stay 3rd world while the rest of the world progresses, and why you all are here ranting on about "THE CORPORATIONS MAAAN, THEIR RUINING THE WORLD DUUUUDE"...
Separation of powers? electoral dictatorship more like! I mean, the election in 2000 was rigged. The house, the senate, the executive branch and the supreme court are controlled by the republican party! ...and we all know how much control bourgeois political parties exert over their members. Anyone who thinks representative democracy is 'democratic' are deluding themselves.

[Tungsten]

Leo Uilleann

You might run for the office, considering that you are a rich privilaged bastard, that's true, yeah. All left-wing parties, including the Greens, have no chance in the US elections because they don't have enough money to campaign.
Might it be that people just don't want greens or left-wing parties in power? Have you ever considered that you ideas, while supposedly championing the masses, don't appeal to (or fool) them?

The money you have will be coming from the empty plates of hungry children,
Are you for real? I've never seen such a dishonest attempt at emotional manipulation.

[ummProfessional]

You might run for the office, considering that you are a rich privilaged bastard, that's true, yeah. All left-wing parties, including the Greens, have no chance in the US elections because they don't have enough money to campaign.

i think Tugnsten anwsered this perfectly :
Might it be that people just don't want greens or left-wing parties in power? Have you ever considered that you ideas, while supposedly championing the masses, don't appeal to (or fool) them?




I am not talking about the western workers you moron I am talking about the capitalists and the statesmen. Asian tigers are also very similar to the west on that, yeah. Also ruling elites of the third world are no better.

what is it with you and the ruling elite bla bla bla, im not rich heck im normal middle class, so whats the big deal if there are people richer then me? wow they have the mansion they have the Bentley, but im happy!! seriously what is it with you, are you jelous? wtf!! the Asian tigers, yeah go to Japan and see how many people are actually opposing the economy and government, go to South Korea, go to Hong Kong, go to Australia, New Zealand and so on ohh boy you will see the masses wanting change in the economic system ! :lol: :rolleyes:



Yeah it does require skills, skills you can't get in a college. You know what would happen if people didn't lift up your fucking boxes or clean up your fucking sewers? You would die! And believe me or not, the workers will stop serving people like you. In fact, they will stop serving in general.

well you defenitaly are not sane, so the workers will stop serving me? what do i look like to you? King Lear? lmao dude get a grip of yourself, how do you figure the world will stop serving? etc...? we would all go down together....and quite frankly no human is willing to do that no matter what...and by the way exactly you don't need to go to college to get the skills to pick up a box, even a 1 year old knows how to do so...hence my point this skill shouldn't be valued as much as a lawyer or medic and so on...it's just logical with anyone with half a brain..


How do you think you got in the collage in the first place? Are you more clever than the workers? No, you are not. It is because your dady paid for your four years in collage and don't start talking about fucking scholarships.

yeah my parents were immigrants, came to this country, worked 2 jobs each a day, and since i was a small child did the smart thing and started putting money on a bank account to pay for college, IMMIGRANTS!!!!!!!! trust me if they can do it, there is no reason why you can't!!! you see the opportunities are there, if you have good work ethics, and a you set a goal for yourself with hard work you can achieve it, but of course there are others who don't have work ethics don't set up goals in their lifes and conform with the 2 jobs a day for the rest of their lives...and the fact is that YES!!! there is something called financial aid, if you are poor trust me in this country you will get aid, in fact both of my friends that go to college with me have financial aid, which pays tuition every semester, i don't get it because my parents set that goal once they got to this country broke their asses and we are now a middle class family living well....i just can't understand anyone who says about being born into poverty bla bla bla, DUDE!! my parents were IMMIGRANTS!! no money no family nothing!! and look at them!! at least in this country you can graduate from highschool free and if you study hard you will get scholarships and if your poor financial aid, it's as simple as that and nobody nobody can challenge me on this one fuck no...



Ah, you are more stupid and worthless than I thought you were. You actually believe best for myself and best for my family and success in life is having money and having power. You follow that way in life, and you will always be unhappy. The money you have will be coming from the empty plates of hungry children, the power you have will be the tyrannical power you have. You will be one sorry bastard who lives on piles of suffering workers, you will be a motherfucking bloodsucker. No I don't want that shit, you and people like you can shove it in your asses, we are sane, you are insane.

uuuuu little feisty aren't we!! lol first of all, i never said the best for yourself and your family was money and power, in fact i labeled them as individual wishes you ignoramus....and nobody can't deny this, obviously you do here in this virtual world of the internet but i can bet my left testicle that in real life you obviously want the best first and foremost for yourself your family etc.. then you want to be successful which means power , recognition a status in life, money , cars , woman and so on...this is the greedy selfish wishes of every human being....and nobody can deny this, only a moronic lunatic like yourself , but of course who are you kidding....and the money i have will be coming from the plates of hungry children????WTFUUUUUCK!??? :blink: right dude please explain that one to me , i really want to know , enlighten me how i will be getting money from starving children? hahahahaha :rolleyes: and the power i have will be TYRANICAL!! uuuuu hahahahahahha im going to be the next STALIN! watch out guys!! lmao you really are halarious....and i will be a "SORRY BASTARD BLOODSUCKING MOTHERFUCKER", well so much for the flaming Ms. Cleo hahahahah



World did care, and does care about tragedies. Capitalists and statesman didn't, won't. You, who don't care, are trying to say that 'we all are greedy' just because you have that sickness, but it is a lie! You can't justify your crimes with human nature. Human nature doesn't exist! Unfortunately, when the workers unite to overthrow you and all leaders for ever, it will be too late for you and your fellow cappies

ohh really, the world cared about what was going on in Rwanda!! really!! well i didn't see any mass demonstrations and the citizens of the world pressuring their respective countries to take action!! is that why the UN refused to help UN troops in Rwanda, is that why Belgium removed all it's troops from Rwanda, is that why every white foreigner was take out of Rwanda..yeah the world cared so much, just like the world is caring about genocide in Congo and Darfur as we speak...shit, you don't even get to see a news story in any newspaper, just like in the movie Hotel Rwanda, when the reporter said to the african, "people will see the horrible images in CNN, and say OHH HOW HORRIBLE, and then continue on with their dinners"....you really are ignorant, why don't you first read learn enrich yourself with culture and information and get out of your grandma's basement with that Che Guevara shirt and get out into the real world you moron...

and human nature doesn't exist? :blink: so i guess our nature is just like a pigs or a dog huh... :lol: you really are ignorant huh? i think ignorant is your middle name buddy

and yeah sure give out all the warnings you want knucklehead, im pretty sure that hell will freeze over 3 times before your beloved revolution occurs hahahha


Separation of powers? electoral dictatorship more like! I mean, the election in 2000 was rigged. The house, the senate, the executive branch and the supreme court are controlled by the republican party! ...and we all know how much control bourgeois political parties exert over their members. Anyone who thinks representative democracy is 'democratic' are deluding themselves

it's called gridlock, it happens quite often, and it's only normal, that is why there is midterm elections which will be coming right up...

[Leo]

I've never seen such a dishonest attempt at emotional manipulation.

Oh no, I know very well that you people don't have any emotions, don't worry. I am just telling the truth, every dime in your pocket comes from someone else, resources don't fall down from the sky.


im normal middle class

so whats the big deal if there are people richer then me?

The problem is people who are more poor not rich you idiot. People are hungary, people are starving to death, people are slaves to their bosses you think this is some kind of childish jealously? We are talking about life here, but of course you have no idea right? And you don't give a fuck.

You are not worth talking to...

[redstar2000]

Capitalist "free speech"...

`Fun' radio poll sparks outrage (http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=11&art_id=20185&sid=8277187&con_type=1)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Tungsten]

Leo Uilleann

Oh no, I know very well that you people don't have any emotions, don't worry.
We all know you're doing for the sake of your egos, so don't fog us off about it being for "the sake of the children". That's such a cliche.

I am just telling the truth, every dime in your pocket comes from someone else, resources don't fall down from the sky.
So how did they get the money I'm taking from them? Who did they take it off?

The problem is people who are more poor not rich you idiot. People are hungary, people are starving to death, people are slaves to their bosses you think this is some kind of childish jealously?
I'd say it's evangelical raving, rather than jealousy. Nobody in the western world is a slave in the sense that you're implying. I don't see starving people in the streets either.

[ummProfessional]

The problem is people who are more poor not rich you idiot. People are hungary, people are starving to death, people are slaves to their bosses you think this is some kind of childish jealously?

you really are dillusional aren't you lol....tell me what % of Americans are poor! according to you the MAJORITY!! that would mean 50+plus of americans are poor!! get real you noob!...the simple fact is, most Americans are like me, middle class, sure we don't have the BMW or the new Lexus parked in front of my house, but i got the 03 Honda Accord, we are just normal...not poor , and not rich...and no, i really don't see anyone starving to death, seriously...slaves to their bosses? why is that? because if they tell you to do something and your supposed to follow the order now your labeled as a slave? your an idiot, in my first job there was a tyrannical boss i fucking hated, he once told me to pick up some clorox boxes which are heavy as fuck, and i refused because there was no need to do so, so i said FUCK OFF!! and he told me to leave the job so my 2 friends left with me who were working there, he got screwed...this isn't Zimbabwe dude , you don't have to suck up to a boss, you can always have the option to tell him to fuck himself...there are more jobs probably in US cities alone than whole countries...
and yes i think this is some kind of childish jealousy, it's the only way i can describe your way of thinking, as well as redstar's who told me something very funny in another thread...according to him and i would guess according to you too because your both communists, if i am rich, im the evil person, because my family gives me a boost in life, and i have things the poor don't.....only way i can describe this is JELOUS!!!!!

dude like i said, get out of your grandma's basement, step into the real world, Americans live well, majority is in fact upper middle class/middle class the rest are rich, and a small % of poor....(poor in comparasion to the other Americans, which means they aren't poor in comparasion to the rest of the world)

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I do support freedom of speech. But I also support freedom to beat up people who support the Guantanamo Bay, massacres on Iraqis etc.

[Herman]

We all know you're doing for the sake of your egos, so don't fog us off about it being for "the sake of the children". That's such a cliche.

Oh, you suddenly can read minds, right? Why don't you go to Africa and work there for a while in the countryside, see if you like it.


So how did they get the money I'm taking from them? Who did they take it off?

They're called wages. What he meant is that all your food, your clothes, your house, etc comes from the work, the labour power of someone else. Society didn't build itself. Workers built the buildings around you. They're the ones who're making clothes for you to keep warm or just for the fun of it. They're the ones who make most of what you have. And they're paid much less than what a CEO gets from his company.


I'd say it's evangelical raving, rather than jealousy. Nobody in the western world is a slave in the sense that you're implying. I don't see starving people in the streets either.

But you see them in Africa, Asia, South America... It's called Imperialism. Learn your Marxism-Leninism before you come here embarassing yourself.


...the simple fact is, most Americans are like me, middle class, sure we don't have the BMW or the new Lexus parked in front of my house, but i got the 03 Honda Accord, we are just normal...not poor , and not rich

Oh, I'm sorry Mr. Know-it-all, clearly you have facts to support your reply. If you don't, then shut it. In every country, the majority of its' citizens are part of the working class, except in feudal-like countries, in which case the peasantry constitute the majority.


i really don't see anyone starving to death

Go to Africa. Enough said.


...slaves to their bosses? why is that? because if they tell you to do something and your supposed to follow the order now your labeled as a slave? your an idiot

You're the idiot. He didn't mean that they were slaves literally. The workers are forced to accept that job, therefore they have to do what their boss tells them, otherwise they'll get fired and they won't earn a penny to feed their families and themselves.


in my first job there was a tyrannical boss i fucking hated, he once told me to pick up some clorox boxes which are heavy as fuck, and i refused because there was no need to do so, so i said FUCK OFF!! and he told me to leave the job so my 2 friends left with me who were working there, he got screwed

Consult the theory of Imperialism. Learn your Marxism and Leninism before you make any attempts of explaining anything.


this isn't Zimbabwe dude

You've just proved my previous points and his point.


you don't have to suck up to a boss, you can always have the option to tell him to fuck himself

Not every worker can afford to do that, for they do not have the proper education to work in EVERY single place of the USA. He had a family to feed. He has other responsabilities which you don't have.


there are more jobs probably in US cities alone than whole countries...

Read my previous comment.


and yes i think this is some kind of childish jealousy, it's the only way i can describe your way of thinking, as well as redstar's who told me something very funny in another thread...according to him and i would guess according to you too because your both communists, if i am rich, im the evil person, because my family gives me a boost in life, and i have things the poor don't.....only way i can describe this is JELOUS!!!!!

No, it's not that if you're rich you're a Capitalist. However, if you are rich you could at least attempt to donate some of your wealth, seeing that you won't need it all to live with the most basic needs of life. They're telling you that you should share what you have with other people. I see no jealousy in that.


dude like i said, get out of your grandma's basement, step into the real world, Americans live well, majority is in fact upper middle class/middle class the rest are rich, and a small % of poor....(poor in comparasion to the other Americans, which means they aren't poor in comparasion to the rest of the world)

I'm sorry, but without proper facts or sources, whatever you say is wrong.

[ummProfessional]

Oh, I'm sorry Mr. Know-it-all, clearly you have facts to support your reply. If you don't, then shut it. In every country, the majority of its' citizens are part of the working class, except in feudal-like countries, in which case the peasantry constitute the majority.


where are your facts? :blink: yes of course, not the majority, but everyone is part of the working class, even Bill Gates has to work, and had to work to get his wealth...but work doesn't mean anything, look at China 10 to 20 years ago, they all worked their asses off as much as they did now, and they were poor as hell, look at China now, just a drastic change in economic policies, and China has an overwhelmingly majority of it's citizens in the middle class, with now another class of rich people, and of course a poor class, but yet again this class was EVERYBODY 10 to 20 years ago, at least now the majority are middle and rich Chinese entrepenuers.....



Go to Africa. Enough said

thank you for proving my point, morron for your knowledge we were talking about the USA..



You're the idiot. He didn't mean that they were slaves literally. The workers are forced to accept that job, therefore they have to do what their boss tells them, otherwise they'll get fired and they won't earn a penny to feed their families and themselves.


Not every worker can afford to do that, for they do not have the proper education to work in EVERY single place of the USA. He had a family to feed. He has other responsabilities which you don't have.

well, isn't that literally a "slave"? but that is bullshit, of course there are some who can't afford to leave their job, but what do you have a brain for? go look for another freaking job, and when you find a better one leave the one in which you don't feel confortable with..?? what's the science on that? don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out... and yes! if you don't have the education, meaning the skills to perform other jobs which would reward you better, than SORRY! it's called LIFE! welcome to it! under that would qualify immigrants, because any American has no excuse for that, you go to school until you graduate from high school at no cost, than if you are poor you get financial aid to attend a community college or university, and if you know your fucking poor than you should know that you more than anyone should excell in school to get a scholarship, which doesn't have to be to HARVARD or somthing, in fact here in Florida if you get a score in the SAT of 760 or something higher and a 3.0 in your GPA in high school 75% of your tuition is paid, so no you have no excuse...


Consult the theory of Imperialism. Learn your Marxism and Leninism before you make any attempts of explaining anything.

Marxism Leninism? what do i have to consult that for? to learn about how Stalin's ideas were great? :blink:



You've just proved my previous points and his point.

actually , like i said, you proved mines, beacause we were talking about America, in which NO i don't see starving people in each street corner...




No, it's not that if you're rich you're a Capitalist. However, if you are rich you could at least attempt to donate some of your wealth, seeing that you won't need it all to live with the most basic needs of life. They're telling you that you should share what you have with other people. I see no jealousy in that.

so what is this now? you want to monitor how i handle my fucking money!! LMAO!! yeah i think you take Marxism Leninism very seriously, it's my fucking money i do whatever the hell i want!! if i want to donate it to starving kids in Africa i will but if i want to spend it on myself or my family and leave it all for them, THAN!! shit that would only be obviously natural!!! and i have the right to do so!! no human can live with the basic needs of life because we are naturally greedy, we want more and more, only freaking monks conform to this life, and even the church is rich as hell!! so in essence yes of course it's jelousy, your telling me that i should share my money with others, who the hell are you to tell me this? what are you doing for those starving kids in Africa huh!? are you shearing your wealth!! give me a break! yeah guess what i pay taxes to build better roads and fund an army, i buy Nike shirts so that Nike can pay the kids in Indonesia, and if Nike wants to only pay the kids in Indonesia 2 dollars a day, than thats their problem, it's their fucking company they can do whatever the hell they want with it, and if the kids in Indonesia don't like it, than they can go back to their villages and farm and fish, yet they won't be getting 2 dollars a day which would be more than they would be making a month or something....


I'm sorry, but without proper facts or sources, whatever you say is wrong

lol, yeah man, im totally overwhelmed by your facts.. :lol:

[Tungsten]

RedHerman

Oh, you suddenly can read minds, right? Why don't you go to Africa and work there for a while in the countryside, see if you like it.
What would that achieve? More to the point, why aren't you there?

They're called wages. What he meant is that all your food, your clothes, your house, etc comes from the work, the labour power of someone else.
Which was all purchased with money earned by my labour.

But you see them in Africa, Asia, South America...
Everywhere capitalism isn't.

It's called Imperialism. Learn your Marxism-Leninism before you come here embarassing yourself.
Are Africans starving because we invaded their country and stole their food? Would everyone be guaranteed food if there was no imperialism? Madness.

The workers are forced to accept that job,
Does that mean we won't have to accept jobs in communism? That's great news.

[YSR]

I wrote this whole thing where I explained why ummProfessional was wrong about everything, but then realized it doesn't matter. He/she is so stuck in his/her beliefs that I can't change them. Only through observation and getting through to what is really happening will people's minds change.

And learning how to fucking write. I mean, chrissakes, have you heard of capitalization?


Originally posted by Tungsten
Everywhere capitalism isn't.

Pretty sure that capitalism IS in those places mentioned.


Are Africans starving because we invaded their country and stole their food? Would everyone be guaranteed food if there was no imperialism? Madness.

Economic imperialism, yes. The US may not have sent guns and tanks, but we sent the agents of economic destruction. And by "we," I mean, "the owners of our country".


Does that mean we won't have to accept jobs in communism? That's great news.

Yes.

[ummProfessional]

I wrote this whole thing where I explained why ummProfessional was wrong about everything, but then realized it doesn't matter

pfff hahahahaha lmao, it's ok, im glad i was able to change you to seeing the truth..



He/she is so stuck in his/her beliefs that I can't change them

im a he by the way lol, and actually i can be very easily convinced when someone here can be able to use their logic, but of course i doubt when someone would use their logic they would change me ;) in contrary agreeing with me and Tungsten for that matter...trust me i give credit where it is due...

i mean if you were to use your logic you would obviosly have not awnsered yes to Tungsten comment:
Does that mean we won't have to accept jobs in communism? That's great news.

hahaha yes Tungsten, isn't communism great! it's such a beautiful thing, i won't have to go through college to be a lawyer, and if i don't like it i can then become a doctor! YAY! long live communism! :lol: well seriously if you won't have to accept a job, and you have a family to support at home, how can you survive under communism after you leave your job? will you still be getting all the necessary things for free!! :lol: man i tell you communism is so awsome, it's, well, UTOPIAN!

[OneBrickOneVoice]

There is no arguement that freedom of speech isn't free if your oppostion is silenced.

[Herman]

where are your facts? blink.gif yes of course, not the majority, but everyone is part of the working class, even Bill Gates has to work, and had to work to get his wealth...but work doesn't mean anything, look at China 10 to 20 years ago, they all worked their asses off as much as they did now, and they were poor as hell, look at China now, just a drastic change in economic policies, and China has an overwhelmingly majority of it's citizens in the middle class, with now another class of rich people, and of course a poor class, but yet again this class was EVERYBODY 10 to 20 years ago, at least now the majority are middle and rich Chinese entrepenuers.....

This doesn't mean that all the wealth is redistributed ti every single fucking person of a country. And the majority are certainly not rich. You're living in a bubble.


thank you for proving my point, morron for your knowledge we were talking about the USA..

And i'm just extending 'what you were talking about' to the rest of the world.


well, isn't that literally a "slave"? but that is bullshit, of course there are some who can't afford to leave their job, but what do you have a brain for? go look for another freaking job, and when you find a better one leave the one in which you don't feel confortable with..?? what's the science on that? don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.

Like I said, It is not that fucking simple. People can't simply 'find' another job, as if it suddenly came to you by magic. Often those jobs you talk about give little money to earn, so It's pretty obvious that the person's morale will also go down knowing this. There are other factors to take into consideration. What if he has to move out to some other city? What about his family? How will he feed them while looks for another job? It isn't that simple.


and yes! if you don't have the education, meaning the skills to perform other jobs which would reward you better, than SORRY! it's called LIFE! welcome to it!

No, it's not called life. It's called Capitalism. Welcome to it. The elite gain much, while the workers gain little.


Marxism Leninism? what do i have to consult that for? to learn about how Stalin's ideas were great?

Oh my god... what does Leninism have to do with Stalin? I swear, don't come here if you have no fucking clue of what even Leninism or Communism is.


actually , like i said, you proved mines, beacause we were talking about America, in which NO i don't see starving people in each street corner...

Like I said, consult the theory of Imperialism. There is something called the Labor aristocracy. Why don't you check it out?


so what is this now? you want to monitor how i handle my fucking money!! LMAO!! yeah i think you take Marxism Leninism very seriously, it's my fucking money i do whatever the hell i want!! if i want to donate it to starving kids in Africa i will but if i want to spend it on myself or my family and leave it all for them, THAN!!

No, you don't have that right. You shouldn't have that right. Owning too much property is a crime. All you need are the most basic needs (Food and shelter) and some extras and that's it. You've got more than what an African child would have and some of that wealth which you had could go to that child so that he could enjoy some of things you have.


shit that would only be obviously natural!!! and i have the right to do so!! no human can live with the basic needs of life because we are naturally greedy, we want more and more, only freaking monks conform to this life, and even the church is rich as hell!!

There is no such thing as human nature. Sorry to tell you, there is no proof of this human nature which you speak of.


so in essence yes of course it's jelousy, your telling me that i should share my money with others, who the hell are you to tell me this? what are you doing for those starving kids in Africa huh!? are you shearing your wealth!!

I am. In fact, I'm part of a small organization which raises funds so as to send it to some of the boarding schools in South America which can't afford to buy beds, chairs, etc.


give me a break! yeah guess what i pay taxes to build better roads and fund an army, i buy Nike shirts so that Nike can pay the kids in Indonesia, and if Nike wants to only pay the kids in Indonesia 2 dollars a day, than thats their problem, it's their fucking company they can do whatever the hell they want with it, and if the kids in Indonesia don't like it, than they can go back to their villages and farm and fish, yet they won't be getting 2 dollars a day which would be more than they would be making a month or something....

You've just proven my point that they are basically 'slaves'. You do realize those children will want more than just fish to eat, right? Maybe they want to have a toy or two? You know, to have a wee bit of fun? I don't think 2 dollars a day is much compared to the jobs you can get in first world countries. I guess you think it's far that these people are just cheap labour.


What would that achieve? More to the point, why aren't you there?

It would achieve that you would come to understand what it means to have to work hard to gain little. It would achieve that you could learn that there are people out there in the globe who give all their labour power to make the things you have and you would appreciate that. I was in Morocco for example. I didn't get a job there, but you could see so many people unclean, trying to sell you all these things for just 1 dollar, if not a bit more. They would follow you around hoping that you would buy from them so that they could buy some food to feed themselves.


Which was all purchased with money earned by my labour.

Your labour being...?


Everywhere capitalism isn't.

Everywhere Capitalism is.


Are Africans starving because we invaded their country and stole their food? Would everyone be guaranteed food if there was no imperialism? Madness.

By abolishing Imperialism and nationalizing their economy, it could solve a lot of problems. It would at least be a start.


Does that mean we won't have to accept jobs in communism? That's great news.

No, in Communism you're not forced to do a job. Any job would be available for you to choose from.


hahaha yes Tungsten, isn't communism great! it's such a beautiful thing, i won't have to go through college to be a lawyer, and if i don't like it i can then become a doctor! YAY! long live communism! laugh.gif well seriously if you won't have to accept a job, and you have a family to support at home, how can you survive under communism after you leave your job? will you still be getting all the necessary things for free!! laugh.gif man i tell you communism is so awsome, it's, well, UTOPIAN!

No one said that Communism was a utopia. What are you talking about? 'From each according to their ability, to each according to their need'. If you don't work, you don't get food. It's that simple.

[Tungsten]

Young Stupid Radical

Pretty sure that capitalism IS in those places mentioned.
Pretty sure isn't good enough. I want proof/evidence. I'm not a Marxist, so I don't take it for granted that "the whole world is capitalist".

Economic imperialism, yes. The US may not have sent guns and tanks, but we sent the agents of economic destruction. And by "we," I mean, "the owners of our country".
What's economic imperialism and how is that causing starvation?


Does that mean we won't have to accept jobs in communism? That's great news.

Yes
Then how will anything get done?
RedHerman

No, you don't have that right. You shouldn't have that right.
Why not?

Owning too much property is a crime.
What's too much and how is it decided?

All you need are the most basic needs (Food and shelter) and some extras and that's it.
A life of subsistence? That's hardly something to look forward too.

You've got more than what an African child would have and some of that wealth which you had could go to that child so that he could enjoy some of things you have.
We're not under any obligation to give them anything. I worked for my money, everyone else - including other workers (and Africans) - can fuck off.

You've just proven my point that they are basically 'slaves'.
They're not slaves unless their being forced to work by means of physical violence.

It would achieve that you would come to understand what it means to have to work hard to gain little.
I can do that at home by trying to clean a grill pan with a toothbush. But again, what would it achieve?

Your labour being...?
Work, you know, like in a factory.

Everywhere Capitalism is.
Don&#39;t provide proof, that&#39;s not necessary. <_<

By abolishing Imperialism and nationalizing their economy, it could solve a lot of problems. It would at least be a start.
How well did nationalising the economy work in, say, Zimbabwe?

No, in Communism you&#39;re not forced to do a job. Any job would be available for you to choose from.
Good. Then I&#39;ll be a movie critic. I&#39;ll just go to the movies every day and nothing else. And you won&#39;t be able to force me to do anything else.

If you don&#39;t work, you don&#39;t get food. It&#39;s that simple.
Wait a minute, you&#39;ve just said we don&#39;t have to work and now we&#39;re being told that we do or we don&#39;t get food. How is this any different from being "forced" to work under capitalism?

[ummProfessional]

lol Tungsten i think you have comed to realize this guy is just one contradiction after another, it really baffles me how this guy can think in such a way and not use the most common thing every human has LOGIC&#33; COMMON SENSE&#33;&#33;&#33; it&#39;s funny he says HUMAN NATURE DOESNT EXIST :rolleyes: ok here i go:


This doesn&#39;t mean that all the wealth is redistributed ti every single fucking person of a country. And the majority are certainly not rich. You&#39;re living in a bubble.

did i ever say wealth was redistributed to every single person in this country? OF COURSE NOT&#33; gee anyone with their brain cells working properly can infer that if i said there was a % of poor, middle, and rich that would obviously mean there is no equal redestribution&#33; DUH&#33; and the majority are certainly not rich? well than i guess you think the majority are poor than? :rolleyes: yeah your living in a bubble...


And i&#39;m just extending &#39;what you were talking about&#39; to the rest of the world.

great, your not telling me nothing new, we were talking about America, now you change it to Africa, in which like i said nothing new, i know every damn country there is poor as hell&#33;&#33;


Like I said, It is not that fucking simple. People can&#39;t simply &#39;find&#39; another job, as if it suddenly came to you by magic. Often those jobs you talk about give little money to earn, so It&#39;s pretty obvious that the person&#39;s morale will also go down knowing this. There are other factors to take into consideration. What if he has to move out to some other city? What about his family? How will he feed them while looks for another job? It isn&#39;t that simple.

it&#39;s not that fucking simple? people can&#39;t just find another job? wow&#33; that&#39;s NEW&#33;&#33; whats so hard about looking at a newspaper and making a few phone calls?? as far as i know this is not magic&#33; often they give little money to earn? well than i guess if the job your currently working on pays more than every damn job listed in a newspaper whats the point of leaving? what if he has to move to another city? unless he is looking for jobs online which list jobs all over the country, because newspapers list local jobs...what about his family?how will he feed them while he looks for another job? dude, i thought i told you this already, ok here i go 1 last time:

you have a job, you think your being treated like a slave, you earn bad money, and you stay ON IT until you find a new one&#33;&#33; is this rocket science to you? all you have to do is contact friends, look in the newspaper like i said make phone calls&#33; etc..you will find a job i garantee you that&#33; obviously your thinking that you have to leave your job and then look for a new one, only a fool would do that...


No, it&#39;s not called life. It&#39;s called Capitalism. Welcome to it. The elite gain much, while the workers gain little.

yes the workers who don&#39;t have skills, if you have skills you will become the "elite", simple as that, i think i already went over the issue about school college etc., so there is no excuse for someone specially who was BORN in this country to graduate at least from a community college with a skill&#33;&#33;



Oh my god... what does Leninism have to do with Stalin? I swear, don&#39;t come here if you have no fucking clue of what even Leninism or Communism is

isn&#39;t Marxism-Leninism the school of communism Stalin practiced? if not than enlighten me please, your more than welcomed...im only human i can be ignorant to many things..



Like I said, consult the theory of Imperialism. There is something called the Labor aristocracy. Why don&#39;t you check it out?

what is it with you guys about this aristocracy, the RULING CLASS&#33;&#33; uuuuuuu&#33;&#33; seriously how is this telling me how there are starving people in every street corner of America?? please enlighten me yet again :lol:


No, you don&#39;t have that right. You shouldn&#39;t have that right. Owning too much property is a crime. All you need are the most basic needs (Food and shelter) and some extras and that&#39;s it. You&#39;ve got more than what an African child would have and some of that wealth which you had could go to that child so that he could enjoy some of things you have.

WHAT&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; are you fucking crazy&#33;&#33; this is just preposterous&#33;&#33;utterly ridiculous&#33; so i don&#39;t have the right for the money i earned with my work&#33; simply because it was more than another guys&#33; GET OUTTA HERE&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; see that&#39;s why you and your ideolgy is not going to work, this is why it&#39;s simply utopian, this is why you prove how you don&#39;t use your logic, this is why it&#39;s simply halarious&#33;&#33; someone telling me how i should handle my money&#33;&#33; hahah what&#39;s next? your going to tell me how to dress and the things i should say and the things i should think? and then start idolizing a portrait of you in my house&#33;&#33;&#33; HAHAHAH&#33; :lol: owning too much property is a crime&#33;&#33; AHAHAHAHHA&#33; so what are you now? the property police&#33; ahahahhah that sounds like taken from like fucking Brave New World or 1984&#33; lol
yeah i have more than a child in Africa, and your point is? simple it&#39;s called liberty , freedom, i do WHAT I WANT&#33;&#33;&#33; with my life and my property&#33;&#33; and finally that&#39;s why you have one flawed way at looking at the world...



There is no such thing as human nature. Sorry to tell you, there is no proof of this human nature which you speak of.

where is your proof that there is no such thing as human nature? hahahaha i want to hear this one&#33; i got mines it&#39;s simple, why do you come back here into this virtual world to reply to my comments? you think a dog would do the same? of course not&#33; it&#39;s because you have a brain (or at least partially) and it&#39;s what makes human nature unique...why does religion exist since the first humans? because it&#39;s human nature to want to explain the things we are afraid off and things we don&#39;t understand&#33; why will communism not work? because we are selfish animals and it&#39;s human nature for all of us to not conform, to want material things , in contrary to what you say about people just living with food and shelter&#33; we want things that make our lives easier that why we have a brain, if not the world would be a hollow shallow dull world... i guess we are going to go back to the cave man era&#33; AHAHAHA why do we humans explore? because it&#39;s human nature to want to find new things, to go over the horizon and that&#39;s were we have gotten to were we are&#33; you think a dog is thinking about going to the moon? if it&#39;s not human nature that defines us, than what is it smart ass? i guess to you our nature is the same as any other animals? get real&#33; you really are ignorant and since im a nice person i suggest you read this so that you can once and for all shut up at least about this subject..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_nature


I am. In fact, I&#39;m part of a small organization which raises funds so as to send it to some of the boarding schools in South America which can&#39;t afford to buy beds, chairs, etc.

well mother theresa, i have to say im very proud of you, and keep up the good work the majorty of the citizens of the world are not doing..


You&#39;ve just proven my point that they are basically &#39;slaves&#39;. You do realize those children will want more than just fish to eat, right? Maybe they want to have a toy or two? You know, to have a wee bit of fun? I don&#39;t think 2 dollars a day is much compared to the jobs you can get in first world countries. I guess you think it&#39;s far that these people are just cheap labour.

so they will want more than fish to eat? WAIT A MINUTE&#33; they are going to want toys&#33;&#33; i thought you said that shouldn&#39;t be allowed&#33; you should have the necessary things food and shelter&#33; wouldn&#39;t that be commiting a crime&#33; lol :lol: :rolleyes: you really are a funny guy&#33; of course 2 dollars a day is shit compared to 1st world countries, BUT YOU JUST SAID IT&#33;&#33; 1ST WORLD COUNTRIES&#33;&#33; which means they are 3RD WORLD&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; &#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;you can&#39;t expect to be earning 1st world money when you live in a 3rd world country, i mean i thought you would of known this by now&#33;



It would achieve that you would come to understand what it means to have to work hard to gain little. It would achieve that you could learn that there are people out there in the globe who give all their labour power to make the things you have and you would appreciate that. I was in Morocco for example. I didn&#39;t get a job there, but you could see so many people unclean, trying to sell you all these things for just 1 dollar, if not a bit more. They would follow you around hoping that you would buy from them so that they could buy some food to feed themselves.

i know it seems terrible, and it sucks, but how exactly is that my fault? why don&#39;t you stop blaming us and start blaming their own fucking countries, with years and years of corrupt systems and REAL&#33; dicatatorship and oppression&#33; at least your giving them 1 dollar which would be more than their own fucking government gives them&#33; why don&#39;t you start complaining about the Moroccan government, why is it the USA??



By abolishing Imperialism and nationalizing their economy, it could solve a lot of problems. It would at least be a start.

i hope you know that in this process the situation would become even worst&#33; and even more would die from starvation and so on.... so my question is.do you really care about this people? or is it just an economic and political view that fits your ideological vandetta


No, in Communism you&#39;re not forced to do a job. Any job would be available for you to choose from.

pfff hahahah yeah Tungsten, you can be Roger Ebert, im going to play video games for a living &#33; lol either way will get the same things in life than a lawyer or a guy picking up tomatoes&#33; isn&#39;t this fun&#33; hahahahah
wow red my mind just can&#39;t comprehend how you would think this is logical and that it would work, has it ever occured to you that the labour force gap would be TREMENDOUS&#33; that everyone would want to have lazy jobs&#33; or do you think people are going to love picking up tomatoes? and then if you don&#39;t like your job how can you then get into another without having the necessary skills or qualification? go to the university? lol i doubt when im 30 i would want to go to college again&#33; seriously man, just think about this, use the most sacred thing you have, your brain, and you can only come the 1 possible solution that this is just flawed it wont work&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;



No one said that Communism was a utopia. What are you talking about? &#39;From each according to their ability, to each according to their need&#39;. If you don&#39;t work, you don&#39;t get food. It&#39;s that simple.

yeah i hear this all the time, to each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs, doesn&#39;t this fit into capitalsim more than communism? to each according to his abilities, yeah meaning if you have more abilities/skills and so on than the next guy, you would obviously be rewarded differently than the one who doesnt

and to each according to his needs. Yeah you might want more of something than the next guy, so that is why there is capitlism... i doubt under communism if your in a market, and you want 200 apples there won&#39;t be a conflict, because aren&#39;t you all supposed to SHAAAARE, lol, aren&#39;t you all supposed to get the same of everything? than how would you deal when a greedy human (all of us) wants more of something than the others...?

anyways, ill leave it for you to think about...

[Herman]

when a greedy human (all of us) wants more of something than the others

By then, Communism will have abolished bougeois greed, for it is not human nature.

[ummProfessional]

By then, Communism will have abolished bougeois greed, for it is not human nature.

ohh god, i give up...a tree that was born with it&#39;s trunk twisted, twisted it will stay...

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 04:21 PM

By then, Communism will have abolished bougeois greed, for it is not human nature.

ohh god, i give up...a tree that was born with it&#39;s trunk twisted, twisted it will stay...
Oh the delicious, delicious irony.

Still, I was more for jumping into the discussion rather than your personal pissing contest so here goes:

I don&#39;t live in America (yet, very shortly you guys are going to annex Britian, you already have our leaders so deep in your pockets they&#39;re sharing space with lint.) but I see all the &#39;glory&#39; of capitalism every time I go outside. I see the dupes of capitalist ideology outside the job centre when I go there to be told they have nothing for me. I see the poorest, the starving, on the streets even in the &#39;suburban&#39; little town I live in.

Still I support free speech but then I&#39;m not a communist, although I agree with many of their ideals.

[Herman]

a tree that was born with it&#39;s trunk twisted, twisted it will stay...

How are we born &#39;twisted&#39;, as you say? When a baby is born, it doesn&#39;t automatically think &#39;I AM GREEDY. GIVE ME EVERYTHING&#39;. There is not a single thought in its mind about that. We are not born with greed. It is created by the material conditions in which one lives.

[Tungsten]

RedHerman

We are not born with greed. It is created by the material conditions in which one lives.
Go and give everything you own to a starving African (so that you starve yourself) and prove us wrong.
Jazzratt

I see the poorest, the starving, on the streets even in the &#39;suburban&#39; little town I live in.
You&#39;ll know what a starving person looks like when you see one. You&#39;re not likely to see one in the western world.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 04:14 PM
Jazzratt

I see the poorest, the starving, on the streets even in the &#39;suburban&#39; little town I live in.
You&#39;ll know what a starving person looks like when you see one. You&#39;re not likely to see one in the western world.
Born in Africa, lived in Brunei for a few years, which is actually made me go left. It&#39;s a little bit of a boring story but basically it was after going to the palace and seeing all the shacks on the way. So yes, I know what starving looks like. You&#39;d be surprised what you can see in the Western world as well, thousands die out in the streets and no one actually gives a fuck - that&#39;s the fruits of capitalism.

[Tungsten]

Jazzratt

Born in Africa, lived in Brunei for a few years, which is actually made me go left.
An absolute monarchy, right? Is that what you take as representitive of lessaiz fair capitalism?

It&#39;s a little bit of a boring story but basically it was after going to the palace and seeing all the shacks on the way. So yes, I know what starving looks like.
And you reckon there&#39;s people like that in your town? Take some pictures next time, and we&#39;ll compare them.

You&#39;d be surprised what you can see in the Western world as well, thousands die out in the streets and no one actually gives a fuck - that&#39;s the fruits of capitalism.
I&#39;ve seen many homeless people. Not one of them were genuinely starving. The genuinely unfortunate are very few and most are beggars of their own demise. For most, it&#39;s easier on the ego to blame the system.

I have the right not to give a fuck. You have no right to make me. You don&#39;t own me or anyone else.

[Herman]

I have the right not to give a fuck. You have no right to make me. You don&#39;t own me or anyone else.

You will be forced to &#39;give a fuck&#39;.

[Tungsten]

You will be forced to &#39;give a fuck&#39;.
I will be forced to stop you.

[MKS]

Back to the topic:

Suppression of speech is an action that is against true libertarian principles. Sure most people do not want to hear racists, fascists, cappies etc, but we have no right to act against their right to espouse their hateful and misguided ideologies. Just as they have no right to act against our right to espouse our far-left world views. In such an environment of open communication and freedom isn’t it safe to say that the people will elect the liberal viewpoint? If they don’t then they don’t, at least they have seen &#39;both sides of the coin&#39;. Suppression works temporarily but as soon as things start to go wrong or turn against the majority those that were silenced in the past will lash out in vengeance and hatred which will allow for any extreme to come to power. (Just think of emerging Nazi Germany or emerging Soviet Russia) both people were suppressed greatly by their governments and other powers, and when the tables turned the Nazis continued with the suppression as did the Bolsheviks.

Limited free speech does exist in most western Republics (USA, England, France etc.) However I did use the term &#39;limited&#39; because thier is coercion and control from both Government and Coroporate intrests.

My point is; a truly revolutionary society will never exist if the compulsion to retain power is still prevalent, suppression of speech and communication is a facet of this compulsion and until it is destroyed true liberty and equality will never exist.

[JimmyC]

Freedom of Speach was invented by America. End of discussion.

[MKS]

Freedom of Speach was invented by America. End of discussion.

The ideal of free speech evolved slowly from many Western European civilizations. The US was probably the first to directly intend &#39;free speech&#39; as a fundamental component in a liberal society but the Americans did not "invent" the ideal. Even the free speech guaranteed in the Bill of Rights has evolved and into what we now know today, it had to go through challenges from both the government and the people (i.e. The Alien and Sedition Act). And even the limited free speech of the modern US society is being challenged by those in Government as well as Corporate interests.

True free speech does not exist and probably never has, but I will concede that US citizens do enjoy a greater freedom than those who live in places such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Venezuela, Cuba, N. Korea, Sudan etc. Americans should embrace that freedom and use it against the systems of power and oppression (sort of like we&#39;re doing in this forum).

Communists, mainly Marxists seem to think that the ideal of Free Speech is dispensable as long as it serves the "people" but such a theory and in some examples the practice, only alienates the people from those in power therefore creating a new tyranny. The Communists will argue that they must guard against Cappie and Imperialist influences and defend the revolution from Fascists and bourgeoisie Socialists, but shouldn’t the people be given that responsibility, to defend their new society against any ideal or theory that would undermine it? A society that allows open and honest communication should foster a more liberal ethos than a society that seeks to suppress and at times destroy independent thought and expression. Is it naive to think that the people when given a clear choice between oppression, hatred and division or equality, justice and peace will always choose in the interest of the community?

The question of free speech is not irrelevant to any discussion concerning libertarian ideology; it is not as RedStar2000 would suggest an afterthought or mere whining. It is the foundation of any society that seeks complete liberty and equality. The Communists have demonstrated a lack of regard for the principle of free speech and that is why any serious Progressive or Libertarian-Socialist, or any person who works towards a &#39;leftist&#39; society should sever once and for all any and all ties to that which is called Communist.