The brilliant way of the Cuban government

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The Cuban goverment has it own anti-demonstration force.

After what I have heard these people are from the security firm SEPSA.

If there is a demonstration against Fidel or the goverment, the special/security forces turn up.

They have Mercedes Minivan and has normally white clothes.
And they start to praise Fidel and Cuba.
And try to yell higher than the people that are against Fidel.

One way to stop or destroy a demonstration against Fidel.

Is this a good or a bad thing?

Shall this strategy be used in our next glorious revolution?

http://www.nautica.cubasi.cu/sepsa.jpg

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Any progressive revolution should challenge the people to air their views. Not challenge them for airing them.

[Ander]

Originally posted by Socialsmo o [email protected] 25 2006, 11:28 PM
Any progressive revolution should challenge the people to air their views. Not challenge them for airing them.
Agreed.

[Janus]

That's the whole point of a counter-demonstration. It's nothing new. Basically, people will go and try to disrupt protests and claim freedom of speech. However, since the Cuban government is doing this then it's somewhat different.

[Nachie]

Various Chavista groups do this same thing in Venezuela, hijacking other people's demonstrations (not even anti-Chavez ones!) and turning them into big personality cult circle-jerks.

[LSD]

How Protest-warrior-y! :lol:

Seriously though, this seems like a non-story to me. The government of Cuba doesn't like anti-government protests and tries to hijack them... wow, what a surprise. :rolleyes:

In fact, if anything, I'd say that this speaks well of the Cuban government. I mean for an, ultimately, undemocratic dictatorship, this is a pretty "soft-handed" way of dealing with dissidents. If Batista were still around, that "mercedes minivan" would be replaced with a tank!

[PRC-UTE]

Those insidious Communists - won't allow cia pigs to start their counter-revolution unchallenged.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

won't allow cia pigs to start their counter-revolution unchallenged.


Not everyone in this world is a CIA agent. :rolleyes:



In fact, if anything, I'd say that this speaks well of the Cuban government.

I disagree.


I mean for an, ultimately, undemocratic dictatorship, this is a pretty "soft-handed" way of dealing with dissidents. If Batista were still around, that "mercedes minivan" would be replaced with a tank!
You do have a point.

But should that be an excuse? Should that be justified, just because Batista was more brutal?

[Comrade-Z]

Is this a good or a bad thing?

It depends on the type of anti-government demonstration.

I definitely want the demos crushed if they are demonstrations of gusanos or of the types who want a Batista-type regime back in power.

On the other hand, if they are trade union demonstrations, dissident communist demonstrations, anarchist demonstrations, then no, I'd rather that they not be crushed or drowned out. But whad-da-ya-gonna-do....It makes perfect sense from Castro's position as part of the ruling class to crush any type of dissident demonstration. It would be illogical to expect him to do otherwise.

As far as the tactic goes, I think it has significant potential for being applied in certain circumstances (dealing with godsuckers after the revolution, perhaps?) Except it would be even better if this sort of thing wasn't even organized--if society was so gung-ho about communism that average people organized their own (much larger and spontaneous) counter-demonstrations on the spot--or even better, if they all approached the demonstrators on an individual basis (although in larger numbers), and had a civil debate about the issues in which the counter-demonstrators skillfully tore apart the demonstrator's arguments and totally discredited/revealed the programme of the demonstrators.

There was a thread here (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=44331&hl=legitimate&st=50) that dealt with some similar concepts a while back.

[Cheung Mo]

There are anti-authoritarian social democrat types in Cuba that are anti-Castro but that have no love for either Washington or the old Batista regime.

[drain.you]

Hmm...should a leftwing government defend itself from a possible threat?

I mean, its protests that are eventually what leads to riots and revolutions!

Should a government (if it is truely working to help the people) stop protests in order to make sure the people dont try to go back to capitalism?

For obviously capitalism is, in our eyes, a bad thing that is not good for the people so obviously a leftwing government should try to prevent it in order to save the people?

[the_last_straw]

No, they shouldn't try and stop/disrupt protests as speech is the key to an open democratic government. The same logic could be used to push down socialists in the US.

[drain.you]

Just like to note now before I am branded a supporter of dictatorship that I was trying to spark discussion in my above post.

Of course, people should have the freedom to protest. I am outraged about how us British folk aren't allowed to protest within a certain distance from Parliament and how we aren't allowed to aid a strike unless we are involved in it directly.

How can we have true equality and freedom without democracy ?
Suppose there is a question of what type of democracy we should have but thats another story...

[Fistful of Steel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 11:40 PM
Hmm...should a leftwing government defend itself from a possible threat?

I mean, its protests that are eventually what leads to riots and revolutions!

Should a government (if it is truely working to help the people) stop protests in order to make sure the people dont try to go back to capitalism?

For obviously capitalism is, in our eyes, a bad thing that is not good for the people so obviously a leftwing government should try to prevent it in order to save the people?
No. If the people don't want something then shooting them to enforce it isn't right, it's murder and horrible. People need to be convinced forthrightly of the values that communism has, and once they see they'll choose for themselves.

[piet11111]

NWOG are you even a communist anymore ?

you are so anti everything that i cant tell what you are for.

[Raubleaux]

In the United States, protests are broken up with tear gas and billy clubs, often resulting in injuries and arrests.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 03:13 PM
The Cuban goverment has it own anti-demonstration force.

After what I have heard these people are from the security firm SEPSA.

If there is a demonstration against Fidel or the goverment, the special/security forces turn up.

They have Mercedes Minivan and has normally white clothes.
And they start to praise Fidel and Cuba.
And try to yell higher than the people that are against Fidel.

One way to stop or destroy a demonstration against Fidel.

Is this a good or a bad thing?

Shall this strategy be used in our next glorious revolution?

http://www.nautica.cubasi.cu/sepsa.jpg
Do you have a link to support any of this?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Karl Marx's Camel]

There is not much coverage regarding SEPSA, unfortunately. My information comes from my Cuban friends living in Camaguey.

SEPSA itself is mentioned rarely. What little I could find for the moment, of information:

[...]
the Interior, which is part of SEPSA, an entity dealing with the security and protection of the Cuban government, jumped on her[...]

http://www.marporcuba.org/PDF/PARTIAL_REPO...HTS_IN_CUBA.pdf (http://www.marporcuba.org/PDF/PARTIAL_REPORT_OF_VIOLATIONS_AGAINST_HUMAN_RIGHTS_ IN_CUBA.pdf)



November 3: Mirta Villanueva Almeida, a 68-year-old Cuban lady was brutally beaten in her own home by Luis Batista Tamayo, a former agent of the Cuban Interior Ministry. Mrs. Villanueva is the mother of the former Cuban political prisoner Camilo Pérez Villanueva, recently released from the prison Combinado del Este after serving a 12 year prison term. "As my mother was entering our home through the rear porch, she was physically attacked by Luis Batista Tamayo, a former member of the Cuban Interior Ministry, presently with SEPSA, acronym for an organization that provides security and protection for the Cuban Government. The beating was so brutal that she was hospitalized for 4 days in the Fructuoso Rodríguez hospital, in the Vedado municipality," Mr. Pérez denounced to the press. (Puente Informativo, 9/11/04)

http://www.cubasource.org/publications/chr...c200411da_e.asp (http://www.cubasource.org/publications/chronicles/coc200411da_e.asp)




I think this is the one closest on the topic:
My spanish is not very good, but I think it is about a blind dissident who gets harrassed by the SEPSA:

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y00/jan00/12a7.htm



It doesn't get much coverage in Cuba either, due to the lack of a more lenient press. For example, few people in Cuba know about the "ladies in white".






you are so anti everything that i cant tell what you are for.

I am anti-stupidity.


NWOG are you even a communist anymore ?


Not bound up by ideology.
But my de facto politics are much the same. For example I did hope Humala would win.

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 12:25 AM
NWOG are you even a communist anymore ?

you are so anti everything that i cant tell what you are for.
Is that a conter-argument? What's communist about opressing freedom of speech. If you're pro-that, then you're the anti-communist. On criticism we should build a socialist society.

[piet11111]

Originally posted by Mesijs+Jun 5 2006, 03:35 PM--> (Mesijs @ Jun 5 2006, 03:35 PM)
[email protected] 5 2006, 12:25 AM
NWOG are you even a communist anymore ?

you are so anti everything that i cant tell what you are for.
Is that a conter-argument? What's communist about opressing freedom of speech. If you're pro-that, then you're the anti-communist. On criticism we should build a socialist society. [/b]
no my qestion was not based on the thread.

NWOG is very hard to read as i have never read him being in favour of something.
and im definitly in favour of opression of free speech for facists are you ?

[Leo]

The Cuban goverment has it own anti-demonstration force.

After what I have heard these people are from the security firm SEPSA.

If there is a demonstration against Fidel or the goverment, the special/security forces turn up.

They have Mercedes Minivan and has normally white clothes.
And they start to praise Fidel and Cuba.
And try to yell higher than the people that are against Fidel.

One way to stop or destroy a demonstration against Fidel.

Is this a good or a bad thing?

Shall this strategy be used in our next glorious revolution?

This doesn't make much sense... It either implies that a band of government agents, only full of a minivan, are actually more than demonstrators, or it is not just government agents who participate in counter-demonstration.


Various Chavista groups do this same thing in Venezuela, hijacking other people's demonstrations (not even anti-Chavez ones!) and turning them into big personality cult circle-jerks.


Well, that's another story but Chavez has nothing to be blamed for. He is really taking the Social Democrat image very seriosly so it is almost a fair fight between Chavistas and anti-Chavistas, actually it is even unfair for the Chavistas because anti-Chavistas has the support of US and controll most of the media.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

SEPSA is a state-owned security firm. Can be compared to the Norwegian Securitas. They have their own counter-demonstration unit.


It either implies that a band of government agents, only full of a minivan, are actually more than demonstrators, or it is not just government agents who participate in counter-demonstration.

I don't get it.

what do you mean?

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 05:01 PM
I don't get it.

what do you mean?
He means that these "counter-demonstrations" must be frickin tiny if they can be disrupted by just a bunch of minivans

EDIT: Guess what I found - SEPSA website in English (http://www.sepsa.cu/Quienes/quienes_somos_ing.asp)

They're the Cuban version of Starksy & Hutch!

[Karl Marx's Camel]

He means that these "counter-demonstrations" must be frickin tiny if they can be disrupted by just a bunch of minivans

They are said to one of the best in the world in keeping law and order.

I've heard, and this is not confirmed, that Cuba have sent such groups to Venezuela.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 07:25 PM

He means that these "counter-demonstrations" must be frickin tiny if they can be disrupted by just a bunch of minivans

They are said to one of the best in the world in keeping law and order.

I've heard, and this is not confirmed, that Cuba have sent such groups to Venezuela.
http://www.sepsa.cu/images/31.jpg

The horrifying face of totalitarianist brutality

[Karl Marx's Camel]

EDIT: Guess what I found - SEPSA website in English

They're the Cuban version of Starksy & Hutch!


If you had gone to the United Fruit Company site, I am sure it would have displayed beautiful and cute South American kids holding bananas.

Coca Cola's homesite portray itself as a humanitarian organization. Yet we know they have killed union leaders and done shit to the Indian population, yes?

CIA's website portray itself as a friends/family club and a encyclopedia.

Even sites for mercenary corporations look much less dramatic than they really are.

Have you been to the Bacardi website? I have a few times visited their site, to listen to their music. No where do you get the impression that they are a terrorist organization in disguise!

[Leo]

I don't get it.

what do you mean?


He means that these "counter-demonstrations" must be frickin tiny if they can be disrupted by just a bunch of minivans


They are said to one of the best in the world in keeping law and order.

I've heard, and this is not confirmed, that Cuba have sent such groups to Venezuela.

Here's the thing, no matter how big a band of government agents are, they can't be bigger and louder than actually demonstrating people unless demonstrators are a really tiny group, like say less then a hundred. So either that is the case, opposition is so tiny and weak in Cuba that Castro can just send his agents to silence them, or it is actually Cuban people who go to those demonstrations voluntarily in support to Castro. As far as I know Castro is still very popular and loved in Cuba so both ways make sense.

I wouldn't doubt that Cuban agents are hanging around in Venezuella, helping Chavez out in tough situations etc. but I would seriosly doubt tiny groups of Cuban agents can silence thousands of US supported anti-Chavez protestors. In Venezuella Chavistas try to organize voluntarily against anti-Chavez groups, and Chavez is really trying hard to seem neutral for his social democratic image.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Here's the thing, no matter how big a band of government agents are, they can't be bigger and louder than actually demonstrating people unless demonstrators are a really tiny group, like say less then a hundred. So either that is the case, opposition is so tiny and weak in Cuba that Castro can just send his agents to silence them,

They are more often than not tiny demonstrations, often 50 to a maximum of say, 200 protestors. Dissident demonstrations are often at that size.


As far as I know Castro is still very popular and loved in Cuba so both ways make sense.
I do know that many people think he is a prick, but then again they do like what the revolution has brought in terms of the social profile, just like people who support him. A common saying is that "I support what the revolution has brought in terms of healthcare, education, and social security, but I do not support Communism/Marxism-Leninism."


A Cuban was asked by a group of Westerners if Cubans like Fidel.
The Cuban then asked them to name their favorite historic leader. She (the Cuban) then asked them if they would like that person to run the country for half a century. None of them did like the thought.



I wouldn't doubt that Cuban agents are hanging around in Venezuella, helping Chavez out in tough situations etc. but I would seriosly doubt tiny groups of Cuban agents can silence thousands of US supported anti-Chavez protestors.

Of course.

Looking back at Cuban history, they would not be involved in taking down uprisings until the situation gets extremely critical or becomes an international crisis. Until then they will have an advisory task. And of course they would need a green light from the government of Venezuela. It's considered a "rule" of Cuban interventionism.

[Leo]

They are more often than not tiny demonstrations, often 50 to a maximum of say, 200 protestors. Dissident demonstrations are often at that size.

I would still think that it's not really big, and I would still think that people in the street would be supporting guys from the minivans. I mean, it is a very confident approach, imagine a right wing government trying to do that, people in the vans would be either lynched or they would start shooting at the protestors.


A Cuban was asked by a group of Westerners if Cubans like Fidel.
The Cuban then asked them to name their favorite historic leader. She (the Cuban) then asked them if they would like that person to run the country for half a century. None of them did like the thought.

My objection would be the very existance of leadership instead... Yet, Cuba is one of the best places for a worker to live in the world. What I've read about Cuba and Castro seem to tell me that Castro is still doing much better and more popular than the sum of all politicians who are constantly being rotated in an ordinary country. For example streets are never closed in Cuba when Castro is passing, and if they are closed for some reason (like a film production) Castro patiently waits in his car. Most Cubans still refer to him as 'our Fidel', especially minorities think that they owe everything they have to Castro. Castro is the only leader with truly good intentions, the only leader who wants to do good for his people, but he still is a leader and people should run things by themselves.


Looking back at Cuban history, they would not be involved in taking down uprisings until the situation gets extremely critical or becomes an international crisis. Until then they will have an advisory task. And of course they would need a green light from the government of Venezuela. It's considered a "rule" of Cuban interventionism.

Generally speaking, it doesn't always have to be the government though, they usually accept green light from 'legitimate' revolutionaries :D Seriosly, deeds of Cuban intelligence (I think it was called DGI) are legendary in Latin America, they were way more succesful than KGB could have ever imagined.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I would still think that it's not really big, and I would still think that people in the street would be supporting guys from the minivans.
Who cares? It's still state repression against mostly frustrated people.


I mean, it is a very confident approach, imagine a right wing government trying to do that, people in the vans would be either lynched or they would start shooting at the protestors.


I do not understand what you are trying to say.


My objection would be the very existance of leadership instead... Yet, Cuba is one of the best places for a worker to live in the world.

In terms of living standards, Cuba is not great. Cubans often say "no es fácil", meaning "it's not easy". We are talking massive shortages of medical supplies, really shortage supplies in general, shortage of doctors due to the massive exportations of doctors to other countries. The conditions of hospitals is not very good, either. A lot of things the hospital does not have, and has to be brought to the hospital (food, lightbulps, sheets, etc.)

If there is food in the hospitals, it is not very good. Two old women lying on the hospital bed once joked that the chef had briefly held a chicken in the soup and pulled it up an instant later, just so that the soup would get a hint of chicken.

Compared to perhaps Nicaragua or Sudan, the third world in general, Cuba is good, sure. But compared to the the U.S., Western Europe, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong etc. no way.


For example streets are never closed in Cuba when Castro is passing, and if they are closed for some reason (like a film production) Castro patiently waits in his car.
That is interesting. I did not know that.

However, it does not change the fact that there are human rights abuses.



I think it was called DGI

Dirección General de Inteligencia, I assume.

[Leo]

Who cares? It's still state repression against mostly frustrated people.

I do not understand what you are trying to say.

I meant this: by sending minivans of government agents to shout louder than the demonstrators, instead of sending Tanks for example, the Cuban government shows that they count on the masses to support their agents. So it is repression against frustrated people by other Cuban civilians and Cuban government agents.


The conditions of hospitals is not very good, either. A lot of things the hospital does not have, and has to be brought to the hospital (food, lightbulps, sheets, etc.)


Remember that we are talking about the condition of workers in hospitals, in no place of the world (Probably except Scandinavia) any worker can afford anything better than that, and they still have to pay a fortune for it.


Compared to perhaps Nicaragua or Sudan, the third world in general, Cuba is good, sure. But compared to the the U.S., Western Europe, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong etc. no way.

Well, it is probably not as good as Western Europe and Japan, but life standarts are higher than places like Russia, China etc. as well. It is clearly the best place for a worker to live in latin and South America.


However, it does not change the fact that there are human rights abuses.

That's mostly a speculation. Not that I doubt existance of abuses to some degree, but the Cuban government has a record that is pretty good compared to most other countries (including the so-called democratic nations, possibly with the exception of Scandinavia).

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Remember that we are talking about the condition of workers in hospitals, in no place of the world (Probably except Scandinavia) any worker can afford anything better than that, and they still have to pay a fortune for it.

This is kind of off-topic I guess, but conditions in Scandinavia, I would say, are overrated. I tried to get tea tree oil today. I visited two pharmacies. None of them had what I was looking for. Used like, one third of my money lately, on medical drugs and appointments with the doctor. A guy I know had to spend over 300,000 dollars on operations in his body which the govt. wouldn't cover.

What food do I have left? Half a breed, some minced meat, porridge oats, a can of tuna and chicken leg. Some (possibly rotten) eggs. Guerilla rations :rolleyes:

This is coming from one who studies to become a chef, who love everything that is related to food.

I remember one time I only had an onion left. I'm not even sure if it was a whole onion. I think it was a half one. That is all I had to eat.

I have to work three hours to be able to buy a piece of ordinary meat that is found in the mall. If you hadn&#39;t guessed it already, I&#39;ve become quite the vegan&#33; :angry: <_<


Well, it is probably not as good as Western Europe and Japan, but life standarts are higher than places like Russia, China etc. as well. It is clearly the best place for a worker to live in latin and South America.

I am inclined to agree, although I have heard Chile is a pretty good place to live?


Not that I doubt existance of abuses to some degree, but the Cuban government has a record that is pretty good compared to most other countries

Agreed.


(including the so-called democratic nations, possibly with the exception of Scandinavia).
On paper things are good.

But after a while you get to notice the more shady things that are happening. Talked to a guy whose brother was beaten up by the police. He tried to stop it, but the police told him if he wouldn&#39;t shut up, he too would get his ass beaten up.

The police, not long ago, said they suspected a guy to be in posession of hashish. When he refused to open his mouth, they started choking him. He never opened his mouth, so he was killed. I think I heard that, when they opened his mouth after he was dead, they found nothing.

Undercover cops are everywhere. Just a tip if you ever travel to Norway.

[Leo]

This is kind of off-topic I guess, but conditions in Scandinavia, I would say, are overrated. I tried to get tea tree oil today. I visited two pharmacies. None of them had what I was looking for. Used like, one third of my money lately, on medical drugs and appointments with the doctor. A guy I know had to spend over 300,000 dollars on operations in his body which the govt. wouldn&#39;t cover.

Wow, well so capitalism with a human face is not even as good as we thought it was... Of course, I don&#39;t really know much about Scandinavia so I will take whatever you say as a referance but still I would imagine it would be better then most other places.


This is coming from one who studies to become a chef, who love everything that is related to food.

I remember one time I only had an onion left. I&#39;m not even sure if it was a whole onion. I think it was a half one. That is all I had to eat.

I have to work three hours to be able to buy a piece of ordinary meat that is found in the mall. If you hadn&#39;t guessed it already, I&#39;ve become quite the vegan&#33;

I&#39;m sorry about that man...


I am inclined to agree, although I have heard Chile is a pretty good place to live?

I would think that anywhere that had a military regime at least thirty years ago would still not be a good place to live, I know they have a &#39;Socialist&#39; president who isn&#39;t really a socialist, I don&#39;t know the specifics but I can&#39;t imagine it being better.


On paper things are good.

But after a while you get to notice the more shady things that are happening. Talked to a guy whose brother was beaten up by the police. He tried to stop it, but the police told him if he wouldn&#39;t shut up, he too would get his ass beaten up.

The police, not long ago, said they suspected a guy to be in posession of hashish. When he refused to open his mouth, they started choking him. He never opened his mouth, so he was killed. I think I heard that, when they opened his mouth after he was dead, they found nothing.

Undercover cops are everywhere. Just a tip if you ever travel to Norway.

Sounds pretty awful :angry: and we would think it would be more humanized <_<
Thanks for the tip by the way, I&#39;ll keep that in mind.

[revleft1212]

If I was Fidel Castro I would send these people out as well. The CIA is probably attempting to get the people rallied together to overthrow fidel. Why shouldn&#39;t he send his "people" out there to make sure things dont get out of hand. For everyone&#39;s safety. Corporate america is just trying to bring people up against Fidel and when it fails they can say they had nothing to do with it, and it wasn;t really there responsibilty. Filthy capitalists are always trying to stick their noses where they dont belong all in order to make a dollar.