Does random exist?

[which doctor]

Does random exist anywhere in the natural universe? Or is everything the effect of a cause?

Please help me. Answering this would really help me out in my philosophical beliefs.

[Pawn Power]

Statistically yes. Computers can be easily programed to choose a set of samples radomly.

[ComradeRed]

The "random" number generators aren't actually all too random. If you are bored enough, you can keep count of a random number generator that generates numbers between 1 and 0. If it were perfectly random, the average would be .5

It rarely, if ever, is.

[Free Left]

Nope. Random is completely impossible.
When computers chose random numbers they are following a code, sometime an infinite one. But its still not random.

[Trent Steele]

The rate at which an isotope decays is probably the only random thing in the universe (though it tends to average out over time, due to the huge amount of decay going on). As has been said, the random numbers generated from a computer aren't technically random.

And ComradeRed, the chance of, even actually random numbers, averaging out that exactly is very small; that's not a characteristic of random numbers (thoguh the average is more likely to be 0.5 than anything else).

[Dyst]

Randomness and chaos does not exist.

Chaos is patterns yet to be revealed.

[Free Left]

That's right.

Chaos is just VERY complicated patterns.

[Janus]

No, I don't think that it can really exist. It may even be difficult to achieve with machines. An interesting thing to note is that once the human factor is introduced, then something can not truly be random.

[which doctor]

Once any factor is introduced it cannot be truly random. JUst unpredictable.

[Ander]

What if one was to spread a pile of cards on the floor, close their eyes, and select a card? Is that not random?

Or am I talking about something completely different? I don't pretend to know what I'm talking about, just asking.

[Dyst]

Which card you select will not be random, no. There are factors which would affect your brain in the decision of which card you should choose.

[Ander]

Even if you just felt around for any card on the floor while your eyes were closed? That still wouldn't be random?

[Intifada]

In Biology, we are taught that fertilisation is random.

[bolshevik butcher]

It's not random in the card thing. If it's a pack its porbality, If it was exactly equal there'd be a one in fifty two chance of you picking up a card.

[Dyst]

Maybe if there were infinite (!) cards, and you were to choose one...

But then again, infinite cards would be impossible.

[1984]

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 23 2006, 04:50 PM
Nope. Random is completely impossible.
When computers chose random numbers they are following a code, sometime an infinite one. But its still not random.
Modern computers are based upon logic elements - gates - that are made out of silicon components - transistors - whose modeling and development are based upon quantum mechanics which relies heavily on probability models and phenomena.

Are you still convinced that ramdom does not exist, even by using a device ultimatelly related to the ramdomness of motion of elementary particles to be able to express yourself here?

:rolleyes:

[ComradeRed]

That don't sound too logical there...particularly because the realm which a gate works is well within the classical limits.

It's sorta missing the scale completely...like proposing a perfect vacuum that has no matter in it, because of QM, actually has matter in it.

Further, the interpretation of quantum mechanics that is being presupposed as correct is rather questionable.

Using Feynman's Path Integral method instead, it is impossible for what you propose to occur.

[xhcn]

Originally posted by Revolution is the [email protected] 22 2006, 09:31 PM
Statistically yes. Computers can be easily programed to choose a set of samples radomly.
Some random-functions are made by checking the time, this can for example be 11:41:22.340. It then checks the memoryaddress 22340H and prints out the number there. Ive seen random-functions like this before. And the number in the RAM isnt random, neither how much the time is :)

[drain.you]

I dont believe that anything can be random. I believe everything has a cause and effect. But then again I believe that everything happens for a reason and fate exists and various other things that I cant justify with science.

[Donnie]

Statistically yes. Computers can be easily programed to choose a set of samples radomly.
What you just explained there still proves that there is no such thing as 'randomness', the fact that a computer has to be programmed is a 'Cause' and the number the computer chooses is an 'event'. The programmer determines the event.

I like what my lecturer once said in philosophy that most modern day people are scientists in the fact that we are always searching for a cause to things, for example most people after an event has happend always want to find out what caused that event.

This debate gradulaly leads on to the whole determinism vs freewill, too bad theres no such thing as free will.

[Goatse]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 04:14 PM
Even if you just felt around for any card on the floor while your eyes were closed? That still wouldn't be random?
No, if you went back in time, and did the thing again (with no knowledge that you had already done it) the same card would be chosen.

[The Grey Blur]

Sunfarstar's posts prove beyond doubt that random exists

[BuyOurEverything]

No, randomness does not exist. It is used in theorectical models in things like biology and statistics for factors that are unpredictable, but they are not, in fact, random.

[encephalon]

Any moderately knowledgeable computer programmer can tell you, without a doubt, that there is no such thing as a random number generated by a computer. Most often, as stated above, the "random" number is a formula that uses the number of milliseconds since the computer was turned on as the seed variable. That's why, in most langauges, you first have to "randomize the timer" before trying to make use of any "random number generator." If you don't base the seed on the latest data from the timer, you will get the same set of results every time you restart the program. You could also use the state of the RAM at any given moment, I suppose, as a seed of some form.

I really do hate it when people start making claims that are absolutely false; especially about computers.

Now, if you extend this same principle to the rest of the world--which, granted, may not always be the most sound course to follow--then you can safely conclude that there is no such thing as randomness, but instead unpredictability. There are too many variables to adequately predict many things, if not most. But this doesn't change the fact that those variables do indeed affect the outcome; in short, cause and effect.

However, we can almost universally use probability to predict things--even in such fields as quantum mechanics. Which means, at its lowest level, that there most definitely is a cause--effect relationship going on, If it were random, there would be no probability. It would be poure chaos, and not in the mathematical sense.

No, there's no such thing as randomness, and in turn there's no such thing as free will. That is, unless you believe in a spiritual world--in which case, logic would be entirely unreliable, since the spiritual world could interfere in the process at any time.