Disproportionate Power?

[Connolly]

Dont get me wrong here - im no Nazi.

But I would like to ask a question which is fundamental to Nazi ideology - and one I would like to see smashed and to be seen as fiction.

But is it true?

Do Jews have disproportionate amounts of power? (as in power vs population numbers)

If so, how?

If not, why create such a myth?

I can think of many "head honcho's" who are Jews - in countries were they are a small minority.

Ex-Leader of the conservative party for example.

Whats the odds?

I would like to here your views.

[RedAnarchist]

There are not even 15 million Jewish people in the world, and most of them are working-class Isrealis and Americans, with a small bourgois minority in some Western nations. Any attempt to make them into world controllers should be dismissed.

[Connolly]

attempt to make them into world controllers should be dismissed.

Im not saying they are to be seen as world controllers, but do they have disproporionate amounts of power?

It cant just be dismissed.

And I would like to leave Israel out of this, obviously because its a Jewish nation.

But to focus on nations with a jewish minority.

[Dyst]

Maybe.

But who cares?

The believes/skincolor/haircolor of your oppressor should not matter to you.

If I am to guess then it is simply because historically perhaps some jewish families have been generally wealthier. This has been a matter of coincidence for the most part. And we should not care.

[EwokUtopia]

The real problem isnt wealthy Jewish zionists in america. Christian Zionism is far more derranged and dangerous. At least Jewish zionists are assholes still in touch with reality. Christian Zionists support the aparthied state of Israel to fulill biblical prophesy and pave the way for good old JC to stop by again. Quite frightning

[theraven]

Jews do have more peopepe in power then other poeles of similiar percantage of the populatin. this is no due to some evil conspicay, but because of the fact the in most modenr countires being educated and hardworking and ambtious iwll make you succesufl. thus jews in most westenr countires are likely to be lawyers/doctors/bankers/politiacns. this is not because of ZOG but becasue the jewish religion emphaiss education and perosnal success.

[Connolly]

Maybe.

But who cares?

The believes/skincolor/haircolor of your oppressor should not matter to you.

Of course it dosnt matter to me. I know religion is a load of hokus pokus.

But dont you find it of historical interest?


If I am to guess then it is simply because historically perhaps some jewish families have been generally wealthier. This has been a matter of coincidence for the most part. And we should not care.

Just coincidence?

I dont have any statistics to back it up, but dont you think if a jewish minority can gain such positions its not merely coincidence. I mean, why dosnt some other minority gain such power.

There must be a greater reason to it.



becasue the jewish religion emphaiss education and perosnal success.

So there is an achnowledgement that the Jews power is disproportionate.

Again, I think thats highly simplistic to say that just because their religion emphasises education (maybe it does, I dont know) that this leads to personal sucess and more power.

Being a Jew dosnt make you more cunning, more intelligent and less lazy so as to achieve greater than anyone else. it just dosnt make sense.

[synthesis]

Jews do have a disproportionate amount of political and economic power, for objective material reasons. Hundreds of years ago, the Catholic Church basically cockblocked European Jews out of real jobs, which left them with the profession which had been reserved solely for them, known as usury, or lending with interest.

Jews also tend to have a very cohesive social identity, like many ethnic transplants, evolved from centuries of persecution; there's a saying that a Jew's dollar will go through ten more Jews before it reaches a Goy once again.

The logical deduction of these facts is that Jews are going to have an increased presence in the circles that get gears shifting in the world, especially with the inestimable power of banking institutions in the modern economy.

I think people are too hasty in dismissing questions like these as anti-Semitism. It's not saying that all Jews are powerful, it's that a larger number of the powerful people in the West are Jews, and though I find the fact irrelevant, it seems to me that refusing to answer the question realistically will drive the inquirer into the arms of those who will.

[theraven]

So there is an achnowledgement that the Jews power is disproportionate.

Again, I think thats highly simplistic to say that just because their religion emphasises education (maybe it does, I dont know) that this leads to personal sucess and more power.

Being a Jew dosnt make you more cunning, more intelligent and less lazy so as to achieve greater than anyone else. it just dosnt make sense.

the way you say dispopraiotne makes it sound unfair. there is no set system that is made to give jews power, nor does being jewish stop you form being lazy. however the enviromate you are raised in has a great deal of imapct on your life. if you are raised in a house where you learn reading and math at ayoung age, all your raliteives are proffesinaols (bankers/laweyers/docotrs) and it is assuemd you will join them. those popsitions (esp. lawyers) are very powerful thus by being mostly upper middle class/upper class jews seem to have more power then most mintoirites

[which doctor]

The Zionists who wan't to rebuild that Temple in Israel are crazy!

[Hiero]

Jews may be disproportionatly in power and wealth positions, but this means nothing. Jews are not a collection of oppressors who expliot labour, except in the case of the Israel state's expliotation and imperialism. If a Jew is in power in the US, Britain, Australia whatever, they are part of the explioting class of that nation, not of their so called Jewish ethnicity.

[Messiah]

It's sort of a weird situation, because historically, Jews have been persecuted almost every where they've gone. And it's always been my understanding, that because of the old aversion that Christians had to dealing with money (oh and how they've rid themselves of that, eh?), Jews were the ones who were "given" the duty of being bankers and such by the various Kings of Europe. As such, since Jews have traditionally been a very ethnically pure peoples, they ended up, through the generations, being stuck in a very small circle of peoples and professions. As such, they probably are, disproportionally represented in areas of fairly high influence.

Oddly enough, this has not been so much of their own doing, but of the demands of Christian Europe in the first place. So to blame Jews for their "money and power" (a sterotype in any case of course) seems doubly ironic.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of even one Jewish capitalist or Member of Parliament in Britain....where as I can think of a couple of Black MP's and other ethnic identities, just no Jews. There likely are some, no doubt about that, but from my point of view, the statement "Jews have disproportionate amounts of power" makes no sense.

I mean, I have no desire to find out the number of Jews in the ruling class and see how that reflects proportionately on the percentage of Jews in a given countries populace, because not only would such a study be pointless and time consuming, but it would also produce the expected results....those being that most countries ruling class have around about the same percentage of Jews in it as they do in its general populace.

In my opinion, Judaism being a minority ruling class Religion is what makes it seem so "weird" when we see a Jewish ruling class ideologue. You know there are say three prominent Jews in Administration X and this is a strange occurrence, so it likely fosters strange explanations. Where as the real explanation would simply be that it is, more or less, a matter of coincidence that those three Jews happen to be in Administration X.

I mean, the evidence of any kind of "Jewish conspiracy" in Europe, is incredibly weak when one looks at European ruling class policy towards Israel. And when one looks at American ruling class policy towards Israel, then the proposition of "Jewish influence" falls apart just as quickly....Israel gets supported by America, because the (predominantly) Christian American ruling class views it as an important outpost of Imperialism. And they'd take that view whether there were a hundred Jews in their ruling class or none.

Additionally, of course, theories about "Jewish conspiracy" are not always that easy to refute because, as has been pointed out by quite a few people, they are presented on a illogical basis. Conspiratist Y will take a load of pure coincidences and build an "entangled web" of reasoning which "proves" that there is a "Jewish conspiracy". Holes in the theory are papered over by twaddle about "secret clubs" and shit, and all kinds of fricking weird social dynamics are brought into play.

So, after all this, you have a "theory" where a load of meaningless facts are pasted together on an illogical basis and presented as "proof" of a social phenomena. Granted, most people are sensible enough to ignore this tripe, probably because most people are pretty logical beings, but the conspiratists brain doesn't work that way! They've entangles themselves in an illogical "web of conspiracy" and simply won't present their arguments on a logical basis which can be refuted. Which, essentially, makes debate with these people pointless.

Debate with conspiratists, is similar, in my opinion, to debate with the seriously Religious. They have no intention regarding actual logical debate and instead, try to ponce on the smallest anomaly as "proof" of something.

I fully suspect, that in a few decades, Scientists will discover that those who love conspiracy theories actually have some kind of mental deficiency....it's possibly, some kind of depression related condition.


Originally posted by DyerMaker
Jews do have a disproportionate amount of political and economic power, for objective material reasons. Hundreds of years ago, the Catholic Church basically cockblocked European Jews out of real jobs, which left them with the profession which had been reserved solely for them, known as usury, or lending with interest.

What countries are we talking about here? Because, as far as I know, the "cockblocking" didn't occur across the whole of Europe....just in a few specific countries.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by Armchair [email protected] 23 2006, 11:34 AM
What countries are we talking about here? Because, as far as I know, the "cockblocking" didn't occur across the whole of Europe....just in a few specific countries.
Well that depends on your definition of “cockblocked”. Jews were not forced into the usury business but rather it was forbidden by the Church for Catholics to lend money. The Jews proved useful in maintaining this service. In that regard the role of the Jew as a moneylender is a pan-European one. (I’m not sure what the position of the Orthodox Church was)

Other persecutions against the Jews depend on time and place but generally have occurred everywhere. Leaving aside your average pogroms, the Jews have been expelled from many nations including, but hardly limited to, England, Italy, Portugal, Spain, France and Austria. For a few centuries, until the late 17th century, there were very few Jews in Western Europe at all. When they did return it was largely to designated ghettoes.

[Connolly]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of even one Jewish capitalist or Member of Parliament in Britain....where as I can think of a couple of Black MP's and other ethnic identities, just no Jews.

off the top

That guy from "the Apprentice"

&

Ex-Leader of the conservative party

From america, Two of the most powerful

Henry Kissenger

&

Alan Greenspan ex-fed rsv.

What percentage are Jews of the US population?.......Is coincidence that two of the most powerful just happen to be, jews?

What about all the jewish celebs in hollywood - coincidence?


Explanations so far seem to make a lot of sense.

Also, I would like to ask, why is it that so many leaders of soviet russia have been from jewish backgrounds - including marxist contributers.

Boris yelstin - also jewish.

[ :lol: im going to get restricted for asking these questions]

But serious, I am just historically curious - so dont jump to any hasty conclusions.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by The RedBanner+--> (The RedBanner)That guy from "the Apprentice"[/b]

Who?


Originally posted by The RedBanner+--> (The RedBanner)Ex-Leader of the conservative party[/b]

Is Michael Howard even a practicing Jew? Because he's had his name "anglicised" according to wikipedia....which would suggest a break from his Jewish origins. Certainly not something someone would do if they thought there was a better possibility of them "getting ahead" by being Jewish.


Originally posted by The RedBanner
Henry Kissenger

A guy who worked in a predominantly Christian Administration.

Wikipedia, actually has this list: Jewish-American politicians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish-American_politicians)....one would imagine, that a list of Christian-American politicians would be far longer. Certainly the brevity of that list, when one considers it takes into account active and retired politicians, indicates a lack of "Jewish influence" in American politics.

Heck, there are more Irish-American politicians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Irish-American_politicians) listed (199 Irish-Americans compared to 152 Jewish-Americans) on wikipedia....maybe there's a "disproportionate amount of power" wielded in Washington by the fricking Irish. I mean, there's been no Jewish Presidents, yet if memory serves me correctly, there's been at least three Presidents of Welsh origin. Maybe Swansea City Council "secretly controls" American politics! :lol:


Originally posted by The RedBanner
What percentage are Jews of the US population?

1%; (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#Religion) probably about the same proportion of people who are both Jewish and a politician in America. I mean, if there are "disproportionate amounts of power", then, based on figures from that link, then it's the Protestants....they make up 52% of the population, yet I think more than half of American politicians are Protestant; and the "other" 10% (atheists?), are most certainly underrepresented.

Another thing of note here, whilst Jews compared to, say Muslims (another 1% category) who have less representation, that's not a sign of a "Jewish conspiracy"....it merely has more to do with when these groups came to America; and, possibly, the money they brought with them and the overall lack of coloured politicians in America.

I mean, there have been Jews in America for a lot longer than there have been Muslims, so that would indicate that the Jewish community is better integrated, like say, the Irish-Catholic community....which of course, means they're more likely to be better represented in the halls of power. Additionally, of course, no doubt many Jews who fled to America in the 30's, came with money....fleeing Nazi Germany was a lot easier if you had cash. So, as immigrants in a new country, they'd start out better off than other social groups; who, generally speaking, come with very little.


The [email protected]
What about all the jewish celebs in hollywood - coincidence?

Not really. New York is a city with, likely, a bigger percentage of Jewish people when compared with America as a whole; and it's also the city where most actors, producers, playwrights and so on, get their start. If Mining Town X had the largest Jewish population in America, then we'd likely see a lot of Jewish Miners....it's a geographical accident that's all.

And, from a glance at Wikpedia, there are 640 Jewish American actors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_American_actors) and 639 African-American actors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African-American_actors)....fuck knows how many White Christian actors there are, but I&#39;m guessing it&#39;s more. <_<


The RedBanner
Also, I would like to ask, why is it that so many leaders of soviet russia have been from jewish backgrounds - including marxist contributers.

See this post (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=46319&view=findpost&p=1292049093)....the "Bolshevik anti-semites" post I linked, goes to great lengths to show that there weren&#39;t many "Jewish Bolsheviks"; to quote him, "The Bolshevik leadership always had a Russian majority."

A serious study of the Bolshevik Party, would probably show that, comparatively speaking, a disproportionate amount of the Bolshevik leadership came from either Russia&#39;s few modern cities or from cities in Europe, where they had been in exile. As with most things, the number of people from social group whatever, fluctuated, but there&#39;s nothing really that shows that a certain social group had a "disproportionate amount of power".

[Connolly]

Fair enough AS. I thought id just "probe" into the question.

Jews are, it seems, disproportionate in various careers. Not just plus or minus a couple of percent here and there - which as you gave an example, protestants. But by quite a significant amount - such as what you said here


And, from a glance at Wikpedia, there are 640 Jewish American actors and 639 African-American actors....fuck knows how many White Christian actors there are, but I&#39;m guessing it&#39;s more.

That is not a fair comparison. African-Americans are probably the largest minority group in america - Jews are a mere 1% of the population.

Im sure there are historical reasons which are not purposeful for the various disproportions which Jews find themselves.

Its to overestimate human ability to arrange such a global conspiracy of "controlling Jews" or "Illuminati". Its BS.

My questions have been answered - ill leave it there.

[Spartacist]

Jews have been the object of persecution all over the world because they tend to have a strong impulse toward rationality and against tyranny. As a result they have attempted to modify the societies they move into and this arouses the passions of the host population who reacted violently to the Jews as outsiders. The Jews have a strong revolutionary spirit, why do you think Hitler wanted to wipe them out?

However, sadly, Jews often do not practice what they preach. Though they were in the forefront of the civil rights movement, they tend to segregate themselves very strictly. My Jewish grandmother was the head of the Racial Equity League that marched in Alabama and Mississippi in the 1960s but today she lives in an all-Jewish retirement village that discriminates. When I ask her about it she avoids the issue until she once finally burst out, "Jews should be given some consideration, considering history&#33;"

Sorry, but if you advocate it, you should live it.