Religion and Beliefs

[Noah]

Hey guys,

I'm not a religious person. On many sites that support the left they mention how they oppose organised religion and belief. (
We oppose organised religion and beliefs. - Anarchist Federation of the UK)

People for 1000s of years have always wondered what is in the next life, or simply 'what is out there' people with the same beliefs will come together and organise despite how much communism/anarchism relieves them of the daily problems that capitalism poses because communism/anarchism can not answer these questions. This means they will come together and organise, then write about their beliefs and try to show how they are correct.

In a communist society how would people be dealt with? And do you think it is realistic to ask people to drop their beliefs? Because I thought having 'beliefs' are natural, it's what gives us a part of our individuality but it also can bring people together.

[The Grey Blur]

People don't need institutions to practice religions and as athiesm is a strand of Socialism I doubt there would be any great clamour for religion in a post-revolutionary society

[Noah]

People don't need institutions to practice religions

Not necessarily. Some people feel they need to be in a place that invokes a certain feeling or surrounded by certain decorations / statues / emblems / smells even in order for them to practise their religion or belief.

Say if a communist society was in place, what would happen to the minority that were practising organised religion, say at a home or in a basement or something? :blink:

Because I would imagine, after communist revolution, people wouldn't just say 'Oh we don't need religion anymore'. Because religion poses an answer for some unanswerable questions and those people are bound to unite.

It's like capitalists trying to stop the left uniting. Isn't stopping religious people organise or worship together a break of 'freedom'?

[Connolly]

Because I would imagine, after communist revolution, people wouldn't just say 'Oh we don't need religion anymore'. Because religion poses an answer for some unanswerable questions and those people are bound to unite.

But lets face it - they dont need religion!

Just look at the workers in the advanced west, they dont really need such explainations any more.

People attending church is at an all time low.

The breaking of religious rules are at an all time high.

Workers just dont bother with it anymore. How many workers do you know who really philosophise about our existance? - I bet few.

Ask a worker if they believe in God and they might say yes, question them further and you will see they dont actually give a shit about their actual beliefs.


But, to answer your question from my point of view - I dont think organised religion will exist - so I cant say what should be done with them :P

[Dyst]

I can understand people who seek religions for the purely philosophical aspect of it. People may genuinely wonder what happens when you die, why nature is governed by certain laws, etc.

However, this is oppositional to actually practicing religion. If you practice a religion, you'll pray, go to church, etc. If you practice the philosophy, you'll see there is no reason to pray or go to church. Unless you're an idiot.

[Morpheus]

Organized religion is a form of thought control invented by pre-capitalist ruling classes.

[kurt]

Not necessarily. Some people feel they need to be in a place that invokes a certain feeling or surrounded by certain decorations / statues / emblems / smells even in order for them to practise their religion or belief.

People need certain material objects to practice a belief that is inherently idealist? Doesn't that strike you as a little, well, odd?


Say if a communist society was in place, what would happen to the minority that were practising organised religion, say at a home or in a basement or something? :blink:
If it were still the case that godsuckers were still around, then yes I suppose they'd be forced to practice their beliefs in private, outside of the public realm.

However, that doesn't mean children will be allowed to be indoctrinated by that crap!


Because I would imagine, after communist revolution, people wouldn't just say 'Oh we don't need religion anymore'. Because religion poses an answer for some unanswerable questions and those people are bound to unite.
Actually, communist revolution will most likely require an advanced materialist understanding of the world; something which is diametrically opposed to superstition.


It's like capitalists trying to stop the left uniting. Isn't stopping religious people organise or worship together a break of 'freedom'?
I think "freedom from religion" is a higher priority in communism :P

[midnight marauder]

Are we really expecting the, what, 96% of America who believe in religion to give up a belief their lives and families are based upon? While this would be wonderful, it's ridiculous.

We can't ever eradicate people's superstitions overnight. This can't come from "forcing people to practice in private," nor by punishing these people for their beliefs. It can only come from education and an opposition to indoctrination (which, keep in mind, would be totally natural under communist organisation [especially of the family]).

In the mean time, the point should be shifted not toward abolishing religion all together at once, a goal which would totally alienate the majority of America from communism and revolution, but opposing religious hierarchy, indoctrination, and above all, the opperssion that many religions promote.

It's imperative that we free our society from the chains of popular religious bullshit, but this is something that the people must accomplish themselves. We can't force them.

[kurt]

Are we really expecting the, what, 96% of America who believe in religion to give up a belief their lives and families are based upon? While this would be wonderful, it's ridiculous.
The number isn't that high.


We can't ever eradicate people's superstitions overnight. This can't come from "forcing people to practice in private," nor by punishing these people for their beliefs. It can only come from education and an opposition to indoctrination (which, keep in mind, would be totally natural under communist organisation [especially of the family]).

You're right, we can't eradicate people's superstitions overnight, all we can do is slowly chip away at them. When we say that we are going to "force people to practice in private", we are operating under the assumption that communism is a highly rational social order, free from superstition. If this is the case, then the majority of people will probably think religion to be barbaric, and act accordingly.


In the mean time, the point should be shifted not toward abolishing religion all together at once, a goal which would totally alienate the majority of America from communism and revolution, but opposing religious hierarchy, indoctrination, and above all, the opperssion that many religions promote.
Religious people are already alienated from communism in the first place! A materialist conception of the world has no place for idealist superstition, whatsoever!.



It's imperative that we free our society from the chains of popular religious bullshit, but this is something that the people must accomplish themselves. We can't force them.
The majority of people will accomplish this by themselves, so long as there are communists constantly confronting religion everywhere. However, if there happens to be some lingering reaction after the revolution (religion, the bourgeois), then you can be sure their material means for propagating their bullshit will be taken away.

But the religious shouldn't have to worry about their churches being burned down. After all, it's the after-life (non-material world) that counts anyways, right?

[redstar2000]

In a world like ours which is still heavily polluted with superstitious beliefs, it is "natural" to think that the "questions" posed by superstition are "real" and "must be" answered.

In a communist society, such questions would not be thought of as "real questions" at all...and would likely be completely ignored.

When we discover a scientific explanation for some natural phenomenon, then we no longer puzzle ourselves over the "possible" theological "explanations". When we grasp the idea that human personalities cease to exist when the brain dies, then we no longer concern ourselves with a meaningless "question" like "what happens after we die".

In other words, the reason we "think about" that kind of stuff at all is that we grew up in a social environment in which that kind of crap was taken seriously. As superstition steadily loses its intellectual respectability, its premises are more and more not taken seriously.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[emma_goldman]

I don't think you would ask someone just to drop their religion....OR ELSE! That's fascism, you should have control over your mind and even if religion is ESCAPISM (which I see it only as being) you should have the right to believe it. Overall I hate religion and I hope one day we can live with out it but this will certainly not be achieved by force. Maybe some will cast off the yoke of Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, et al once a new world has been established, seeing it as a product of their former society and a useless one. Or is that me being an idealist again? :blush:

[Brekisonphilous]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 12:32 AM
I don't think you would ask someone just to drop their religion....OR ELSE! That's fascism, you should have control over your mind and even if religion is ESCAPISM (which I see it only as being) you should have the right to believe it. Overall I hate religion and I hope one day we can live with out it but this will certainly not be achieved by force. Maybe some will cast off the yoke of Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, et al once a new world has been established, seeing it as a product of their former society and a useless one. Or is that me being an idealist again? :blush:
yeah, I really fail to see why these types of people call themselves historical materialists. Asking (or forcing) the proletariat to just "drop" their religions beliefs and not worship goes against materialism because the majority of the proletariat have some kind of beliefs in a religion and always have. To say that religion will be a thing of the past in the post revolutionary world is idealist and inconsistent with historical materialism..
But, a better way would be to water down religious fanatacism to a point where relgion is not a primary focus of the life, but more of a secondary focus. This would be the logical next stem from fundamentalism. Efforts to "abolish religion" should be focused more at helping society see how religion was nothing more than a tool to give more power to the state and church and is no longer necessary as a way to govern how one lives their life in the post-revolutionary world. People just have to begin to see that the reality of the condition of our earth and society comes way before a magical world that either could or could not exist after we die.

[emma_goldman]

Great points! :D

[violencia.Proletariat]

yeah, I really fail to see why these types of people call themselves historical materialists. Asking (or forcing) the proletariat to just "drop" their religions beliefs and not worship goes against materialism because the majority of the proletariat have some kind of beliefs in a religion and always have.

Materialism is based on objective reality. To propose that in order to make a materialist society we should not try and defeat and put religion behind us is irrational. You cannot create a materialist society without destroying "faith."


To say that religion will be a thing of the past in the post revolutionary world is idealist and inconsistent with historical materialism..

Do you know what historical materialism is? The theory of historical materialism shows the STAGES of history. Within these stages and tranistions comes the destruction (or mass attempts) to smash the old rules and foundations. Thus if the next stage of the historical materialist history is communism, it will take a revolution like the others. Old values will be obliterated and other ideas (rationality and materialism) will be accepted.


Efforts to "abolish religion" should be focused more at helping society see how religion is no longer necessary as a way to govern how one lives their life in the post-revolutionary world.

How is this not what we are doing? We are confronting "faith" with reason. And we will always win. We are smashing the old concepts of religion and showing them to be false. People (aside from the work of communists) are becoming atheists ANYWAYS. Look at the growing rates of atheism/non religion in 1st world countries.

[Brekisonphilous]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 05:55 PM

yeah, I really fail to see why these types of people call themselves historical materialists. Asking (or forcing) the proletariat to just "drop" their religions beliefs and not worship goes against materialism because the majority of the proletariat have some kind of beliefs in a religion and always have.

Materialism is based on objective reality. To propose that in order to make a materialist society we should not try and defeat and put religion behind us is irrational. You cannot create a materialist society without destroying "faith."


To say that religion will be a thing of the past in the post revolutionary world is idealist and inconsistent with historical materialism..

Do you know what historical materialism is? The theory of historical materialism shows the STAGES of history. Within these stages and tranistions comes the destruction (or mass attempts) to smash the old rules and foundations. Thus if the next stage of the historical materialist history is communism, it will take a revolution like the others. Old values will be obliterated and other ideas (rationality and materialism) will be accepted.


Efforts to "abolish religion" should be focused more at helping society see how religion is no longer necessary as a way to govern how one lives their life in the post-revolutionary world.

How is this not what we are doing? We are confronting "faith" with reason. And we will always win. We are smashing the old concepts of religion and showing them to be false. People (aside from the work of communists) are becoming atheists ANYWAYS. Look at the growing rates of atheism/non religion in 1st world countries.

Well what I am getting at is you need a stage in between fanatacism, and abolishing faith. People have practiced faith through pretty much all of history. This is a huge role in objective reality of a society. The vast majority of the proletariat would object to abolishment. Capitalism has pretty much just ran their lives into the gutter always struggling to stay alive, draining their hope for a better life because they know they have to keep it up just to survive so many of them turn to religion, many of which promise a better life after death, one that claims to be better than the present. By trying to abolish the beliefs they have developed and depended on, we are attacking their hope. As leftists, i think in the post revolutionary world we should not try to rid them of their faith but improve their life so that they see little need in worshiping a God that in return after death, claims to give them a better life.
The proletariat have always just used religion to fall back on when things get tough.
We have to prevent our society from creating conditions that lead to the need of a faith of God.

[violencia.Proletariat]

People have practiced faith through pretty much all of history. This is a huge role in objective reality of a society. The vast majority of the proletariat would object to abolishment.

By the time communist revolution looks possible? No they will not oppose abolishing the church infrastructure. If you would take a look at the religious rates in the advanced capitalist countries you will see them declining.


Capitalism has pretty much just ran their lives into the gutter always struggling to stay alive, draining their hope for a better life because they know they have to keep it up just to survive so many of them turn to religion, many of which promise a better life after death, one that claims to be better than the present. By trying to abolish the beliefs they have developed and depended on, we are attacking their hope.

This is apologist crap. You admit here yourself that religion stands in the way of material action against capitalism. Instead of workers activley resisting capitalism, you think it's ok that they get conned out of changing things for the better.


As leftists, i think in the post revolutionary world we should not try to rid them of their faith but improve their life so that they see little need in worshiping a God that in return after death, claims to give them a better life.

The need for faith is already disapearing. It won't take that long before the majority of the proletariat is atheist. Most live their everday lives like atheists now anyways.

[Brekisonphilous]

I am not apologizing for anything. I just know that where I live, pretty much everyone in town is christian. probably 95%. I believe in freedom of religion because I think they would rise up, and it would discourage them from the movement. We need all we can and it is best to not be too discriminatory.

It does stand in the way of abolishing capitalism because at least as of now, most people are religious. am i correct? Do you really think people would just give up their religious freedom for a system that they only have been taught to hate by their government, who which is also influenced by religion.

I guess I am thinking too much in the moment, and not in the future, because I do know that the numbers are decreasing for the religious.

[FidelCastro]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 03:44 AM
I am not apologizing for anything. I just know that where I live, pretty much everyone in town is christian. probably 95%. I believe in freedom of religion because I think they would rise up, and it would discourage them from the movement. We need all we can and it is best to not be too discriminatory.

It does stand in the way of abolishing capitalism because at least as of now, most people are religious. am i correct? Do you really think people would just give up their religious freedom for a system that they only have been taught to hate by their government, who which is also influenced by religion.

I guess I am thinking too much in the moment, and not in the future, because I do know that the numbers are decreasing for the religious.
When most people hear Religion, they think Christianity, Judaism or Islam which are relativly new to this Earth. Religion has been around since people have been around. Why? Because it has answers to questions which science or logic cannot answer. It's also the simplest idea to grasp. What happens when you die? You break down and become part of the Earth. And....? How was the Earth created? The universe created it so to speak. What created the universe? The big bang. What created the big bang? Science has more flaws in it than the concept of God. If the concept of God or Gods was so flawed, after 100 million years on this Earth, wouldn't it be wiped out? I'm not saying which God is the true God, all I'm saying is that one of them or all of them exist.

[chimx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 01:37 AM
The need for faith is already disapearing. It won't take that long before the majority of the proletariat is atheist. Most live their everday lives like atheists now anyways.
the fact that you still refer to working folk as "the proletariat" makes me think you don't hang out with 'em very much anyway. unless of course you are french, in which case i humbly apologize.

[FidelCastro]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 22 2006, 12:29 PM

Because I would imagine, after communist revolution, people wouldn't just say 'Oh we don't need religion anymore'. Because religion poses an answer for some unanswerable questions and those people are bound to unite.

But lets face it - they dont need religion!

Just look at the workers in the advanced west, they dont really need such explainations any more.

People attending church is at an all time low.

The breaking of religious rules are at an all time high.

Workers just dont bother with it anymore. How many workers do you know who really philosophise about our existance? - I bet few.

Ask a worker if they believe in God and they might say yes, question them further and you will see they dont actually give a shit about their actual beliefs.


But, to answer your question from my point of view - I dont think organised religion will exist - so I cant say what should be done with them :P
Then, that is something that should be decided by time and not the government. There are those who still practice religion and go to church (I myself do none of these because I don't believe in one particular god and frankly, it would be damn near impossible to go to every single church). Getting back to the argument, there is a place where the Government has buisness and places where it doesn't. Religion is one of those I believe. If the people no longer want Religion and are abandoning it (which they are currently), then it will happen eventually. Perhaps there are those few, who will worship it, but leave them be, they will pose no threat.

[FidelCastro]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 22 2006, 12:29 PM

Because I would imagine, after communist revolution, people wouldn't just say 'Oh we don't need religion anymore'. Because religion poses an answer for some unanswerable questions and those people are bound to unite.

But lets face it - they dont need religion!

Just look at the workers in the advanced west, they dont really need such explainations any more.

People attending church is at an all time low.

The breaking of religious rules are at an all time high.

Workers just dont bother with it anymore. How many workers do you know who really philosophise about our existance? - I bet few.

Ask a worker if they believe in God and they might say yes, question them further and you will see they dont actually give a shit about their actual beliefs.


But, to answer your question from my point of view - I dont think organised religion will exist - so I cant say what should be done with them :P
Then, that is something that should be decided by time and not the government. There are those who still practice religion and go to church (I myself do none of these because I don't believe in one particular god and frankly, it would be damn near impossible to go to every single church). Getting back to the argument, there is a place where the Government has buisness and places where it doesn't. Religion is one of those I believe. If the people no longer want Religion and are abandoning it (which they are currently), then it will happen eventually. Perhaps there are those few, who will worship it, but leave them be, they will pose no threat.

[FidelCastro]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 22 2006, 12:29 PM

Because I would imagine, after communist revolution, people wouldn't just say 'Oh we don't need religion anymore'. Because religion poses an answer for some unanswerable questions and those people are bound to unite.

But lets face it - they dont need religion!

Just look at the workers in the advanced west, they dont really need such explainations any more.

People attending church is at an all time low.

The breaking of religious rules are at an all time high.

Workers just dont bother with it anymore. How many workers do you know who really philosophise about our existance? - I bet few.

Ask a worker if they believe in God and they might say yes, question them further and you will see they dont actually give a shit about their actual beliefs.


But, to answer your question from my point of view - I dont think organised religion will exist - so I cant say what should be done with them :P
Then, that is something that should be decided by time and not the government. There are those who still practice religion and go to church (I myself do none of these because I don't believe in one particular god and frankly, it would be damn near impossible to go to every single church). Getting back to the argument, there is a place where the Government has buisness and places where it doesn't. Religion is one of those I believe. If the people no longer want Religion and are abandoning it (which they are currently), then it will happen eventually. Perhaps there are those few, who will worship it, but leave them be, they will pose no threat.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 09:10 AM
Hey guys,

I'm not a religious person. On many sites that support the left they mention how they oppose organised religion and belief. (
We oppose organised religion and beliefs. - Anarchist Federation of the UK)


People for 1000s of years have always wondered what is in the next life, or simply 'what is out there' people with the same beliefs will come together and organise despite how much communism/anarchism relieves them of the daily problems that capitalism poses because communism/anarchism can not answer these questions.

Firstly, as a member of the anarchist federation please don't assume my statements to be reprasentative of the whole organisation, im speaking as myself. Secondly, sure people wonder "what is out there" and that's why we spend so much time trying to find stuff out, we explore, experiment, and calculate; that's called Science. Science can answer 'these questions' and as such, is completely opposed to the state of non-thinking called Faith, where we assume we have discovered everything and it can never ever questioned, the end.

It would also be pointless to ever try and work anything out about the world, ever again, because God cannot be understood or proven. Se we might as well just lay about, glad we "know" the truth in complete unquestioning submission to the state and religious hierachies.


In a communist society how would people be dealt with?

Urm, equally? :huh:


And do you think it is realistic to ask people to drop their beliefs? Because I thought having 'beliefs' are natural, it's what gives us a part of our individuality but it also can bring people together.

Having faith is stupid, and stupidity is natural. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try and eradicate it. Nazi rally's also brought people together, shall we have some of those?

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 09:10 AM
Hey guys,

I'm not a religious person. On many sites that support the left they mention how they oppose organised religion and belief. (
We oppose organised religion and beliefs. - Anarchist Federation of the UK)


People for 1000s of years have always wondered what is in the next life, or simply 'what is out there' people with the same beliefs will come together and organise despite how much communism/anarchism relieves them of the daily problems that capitalism poses because communism/anarchism can not answer these questions.

Firstly, as a member of the anarchist federation please don't assume my statements to be reprasentative of the whole organisation, im speaking as myself. Secondly, sure people wonder "what is out there" and that's why we spend so much time trying to find stuff out, we explore, experiment, and calculate; that's called Science. Science can answer 'these questions' and as such, is completely opposed to the state of non-thinking called Faith, where we assume we have discovered everything and it can never ever questioned, the end.

It would also be pointless to ever try and work anything out about the world, ever again, because God cannot be understood or proven. Se we might as well just lay about, glad we "know" the truth in complete unquestioning submission to the state and religious hierachies.


In a communist society how would people be dealt with?

Urm, equally? :huh:


And do you think it is realistic to ask people to drop their beliefs? Because I thought having 'beliefs' are natural, it's what gives us a part of our individuality but it also can bring people together.

Having faith is stupid, and stupidity is natural. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try and eradicate it. Nazi rally's also brought people together, shall we have some of those?

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 09:10 AM
Hey guys,

I'm not a religious person. On many sites that support the left they mention how they oppose organised religion and belief. (
We oppose organised religion and beliefs. - Anarchist Federation of the UK)


People for 1000s of years have always wondered what is in the next life, or simply 'what is out there' people with the same beliefs will come together and organise despite how much communism/anarchism relieves them of the daily problems that capitalism poses because communism/anarchism can not answer these questions.

Firstly, as a member of the anarchist federation please don't assume my statements to be reprasentative of the whole organisation, im speaking as myself. Secondly, sure people wonder "what is out there" and that's why we spend so much time trying to find stuff out, we explore, experiment, and calculate; that's called Science. Science can answer 'these questions' and as such, is completely opposed to the state of non-thinking called Faith, where we assume we have discovered everything and it can never ever questioned, the end.

It would also be pointless to ever try and work anything out about the world, ever again, because God cannot be understood or proven. Se we might as well just lay about, glad we "know" the truth in complete unquestioning submission to the state and religious hierachies.


In a communist society how would people be dealt with?

Urm, equally? :huh:


And do you think it is realistic to ask people to drop their beliefs? Because I thought having 'beliefs' are natural, it's what gives us a part of our individuality but it also can bring people together.

Having faith is stupid, and stupidity is natural. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try and eradicate it. Nazi rally's also brought people together, shall we have some of those?

[Donnie]

In a communist society how would people be dealt with? And do you think it is realistic to ask people to drop their beliefs? Because I thought having 'beliefs' are natural, it's what gives us a part of our individuality but it also can bring people together.
Most people I would like to consider in post revolutionary society would have no religion or less religion at all. If people have to be religious it should be a personal thing and not a public thing, it's bad enough in todays society that some of our class is hoodwinked by the priestiocracy (sp?).

I think that even when you encounter religion not in the public sphere it should be frowned upon, obviously you can't kill idea's but you can certenally destroy the fucking religious heirarchies that perpetuate the 'god idea'.

I stand by Bakunin on religion here. Violent Atheism.

[Donnie]

In a communist society how would people be dealt with? And do you think it is realistic to ask people to drop their beliefs? Because I thought having 'beliefs' are natural, it's what gives us a part of our individuality but it also can bring people together.
Most people I would like to consider in post revolutionary society would have no religion or less religion at all. If people have to be religious it should be a personal thing and not a public thing, it's bad enough in todays society that some of our class is hoodwinked by the priestiocracy (sp?).

I think that even when you encounter religion not in the public sphere it should be frowned upon, obviously you can't kill idea's but you can certenally destroy the fucking religious heirarchies that perpetuate the 'god idea'.

I stand by Bakunin on religion here. Violent Atheism.

[Donnie]

In a communist society how would people be dealt with? And do you think it is realistic to ask people to drop their beliefs? Because I thought having 'beliefs' are natural, it's what gives us a part of our individuality but it also can bring people together.
Most people I would like to consider in post revolutionary society would have no religion or less religion at all. If people have to be religious it should be a personal thing and not a public thing, it's bad enough in todays society that some of our class is hoodwinked by the priestiocracy (sp?).

I think that even when you encounter religion not in the public sphere it should be frowned upon, obviously you can't kill idea's but you can certenally destroy the fucking religious heirarchies that perpetuate the 'god idea'.

I stand by Bakunin on religion here. Violent Atheism.

[gilhyle]

This question is like which should you take the blue pill or the red pill ?

I woke up one morning and just said Im not believing any more......I sometimes wish I could go back and still believe in a religion as its a way to bring hope into your life. But there are other ways....harder to formulate, ways to nurture hope which the dominant ideology undermines rather than supporting, but ways nevertheless.

Relgion is an opium....it can feel great, its hard to give up.

And people who give it up are too often like preachy reformed alcoholics who deny all value to what they have overcome with such difficulty.

Religion is a great drug, the music feels good, the self-righteousness feels good....just admit that at the same time as realizing that religion castrates your mind.

When we have all given it up together we can forget the highs as well as the lows and we wont be tempted any more.

Certain moslems may feel that 'immodestly' dressed women unfairly block those moslems from serving God. I feel that immodestly religious people are an obstacle to my atheism, but Im nice about it: I dont want them to cover up their immodesty, they can continue to display their indecent hope..we can endure and overcome

[guerillablack]

I said it once and ill say it again, you cannot force someone else's community to be atheist. The community wants self-determination. Come to Afrika with that BS after the socialist revolution and see what happens. :redstar2000:

[RevMARKSman]

This question is like which should you take the blue pill or the red pill ?
'Scuse my ignorance but that was from the Matrix movies right? And could you please tell me what the red pill did and the blue pill did? I remember these words: "...and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes." but I can't really recall what the pills did.

[Janus]

One would give you enlightenment and allow you to see your condition while the other allowed you to go back to your normal life and forget everything.

As for religious beliefs, I think it is sometimes a gradual process of abandoning them. Sure it seems hard for those who have had it drummed into them but through time they will see that there's really no reason why they need to worship some "deity".