Show of force against Cuba and Venezuela [Archive]

overlord

7th June 2006, 03:13

bobkindles

If Only the UN and its member States would realise that the most dangerous 'rouge state' is not North Korea, or Iran, or Syria, but the United States itself. The Fact that Venezuela has nationalised its oil industries to make sure that profits benefit its own people and simply do not flow into the pockets of American Capitalists does not mean that Chavez is 'evil' or that Venezuela is a Rouge State.

But when he's not inspecting 'chicken factory number 101' or 'beef farm number 238' Kim literally kills his own people every day of the week. You should see how skinny the Koreans are and how fat Kim is! North Koreans are 10cm shorter than South Koreans so you have to look at reforming the political system. In Iran two teenage boys were recently executed for having sex with each other. In the US would anyone really care except maybe their parants?

And Talking of Wasting Money - your government spends more on the military than the rest of your government budget combined?! When Kids are going without a decent education in the name of imperialism, Revolution is on the menu.

US is the last place Revolution would happen. Not enough minimum wage proletariat. I'd be looking at South America, a continuing possibility in Nepal and of course the Tongan aristocracy who consider poor people subhumans. Everywhere else its over for now. And education is free in the US is it not? Part of the post-revolutionary social agenda of the 1820's.

violencia.Proletariat

I'm sure you'd be the first to volunteer right? I'd hope so, that way a poor person wouldn't have to go die in your place.

It's not my fault recruiters go after the poor, but you must admit the rich have other priorities. Poor people generally just languish around going from one minimum wage job to another, fail to save and invest in stock, and then blame the capitalists for their predicament.

ThisAnarchistKillsNazis

I wouldn't predict any military action against Venezuela and/or Cuba for a long time yet. America is still stuck in Iraq, they are currently having double standards over Iran and the American public will not want another war, especially if it is one that America could eaily lose.

Yeah, like The U.S OF A is gonna lose against Venezuela or Cuba! HAHAHHA! :D Is this a joke?! HA! The US is just continuing Kennedy's silly policy of: "let the people of foreign countries decide their own governments". Yeah, like whatever, I'm sure the Cubans can freely decide to vote Castro out. Anyway if they did attack it would be all over in 12 hours, both Cuba and Venezuela simultaneuously and then America and the free world, (including its poor) would grow richer from increased trade.

ummProfessional

7th June 2006, 05:19

lmao, i think the US can just send 1 fighter jet, drop 1 warning bomb in Habana bay and the Cuban military would throw away their 66 Kalishnikovs and say FUCK THIS! :lol: specially after not even seeing the damn plane in their 1950's Russian radar given to them by Stalin lol

BobKKKindle$

7th June 2006, 07:14

Did I say I supported North Korea or Iran? No, I did not. I was simply making the point that in terms of its threat to the international community, the US if far more of a threat than the countries it considers to be 'rouge states'

The UN definition of a failed state incudes "regard themselves beyond the reach of international law" I would say your country fits that model pretty damn well. It is highly ironic that you accusse countries like Venezuela for harrbouring terroist groups, when your own country supports pseudo-states such as Israel and refuses to extradite Terroists such as Luis San Carlos (Killed 300 by bombing a Habana Airline)

As For Free trade...do you have any idea how much global inequality has increased since the start of the 'era of globasliation'? Free trade is simply the ascendance of Class Struggle to an internaitional level.

And 'UmmProfessional' - The Cuban Revolution occurred in 1959, wheras Stalin died in 1953, so your comment merely serves to illustrate your stupidity and ignorance.

black magick hustla

7th June 2006, 07:18

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 12:14 AM

It's not my fault recruiters go after the poor, but you must admit the rich have other priorities. Poor people generally just languish around going from one minimum wage job to another, fail to save and invest in stock, and then blame the capitalists for their predicament.

Sure buddy.

We all know how it is possible for everyone to be owners of their own buisnesses and live happily forever after in a libertarian utopia!

I mean we don't need people working at factories, or cleaning our shit, or teaching in our schools, or handling our trucks, or working at our offices--after all everyone can be a succesful entrepeneur!

:lol:

Such is the naivity of bright young capitalistas!

overlord

7th June 2006, 09:42

Marmot

Sure buddy.

We all know how it is possible for everyone to be owners of their own buisnesses and live happily forever after in a libertarian utopia!

Yeah but surely you've heard of the sharemarket. People who can't afford to buy a whole business like me can just buy portions. Its easy. Save up $2000. Even you guys can do this. Wait for a crash, (people always overreact in crashes and booms). When everyone is saying how bad it is to be an investor look for a company that earns at least 15% Return on equity consistently over the last ten years. Make sure also earnings per share at least doubles every ten years without simply doubling debt per share as debt can be a burden to long term growth. Divide return on equity by book value the company is selling for. This is carrying value or 'owner earnings'. Look for a carrying value greater than 20%. This means your money if invested will make 20%, some earnings retained by the company and the rest paid into a dividend. Hold for the long term. THAT's IT! Warren Buffet did this over 50 years and went from nothing to 50 billion thanks to compounding a similar process to this.

I mean we don't need people working at factories, or cleaning our shit, or teaching in our schools, or handling our trucks, or working at our offices--after all everyone can be a succesful entrepeneur!

Such is the naivity of bright young capitalistas!

Look at the middle ages, since there wearn't any factories, if you were a freeman in a town you most DEFINITELY have to be an entrepreneur.

ummprofessional

lmao, i think the US can just send 1 fighter jet, drop 1 warning bomb in Habana bay and the Cuban military would throw away their 66 Kalishnikovs and say FUCK THIS! specially after not even seeing the damn plane in their 1950's Russian radar given to them by Stalin lol

Hahahah! yeah and look at North Korea, they're still using t-34s! Still using Mig- 15s with almost world war 2 radar. How long will it take them to realise the US army has crossed the border? They only have like 10 Mig-29s reserved for 'defending' Pyong Yang but since they don't have any fuel they don't even know how to fly! Even with Soviet backing in the 50's their pilots were total retards.

BobKKKindle$

7th June 2006, 10:20

Its Ironic that you critcize the poor state of the North Korean Military when uneducated peasants known as the Vietcong used Punji Sticks, Mig 21s, Trip Wires, and AKs to boot the American imperialist Bastards with their helicoptor gunships and fighter jets out of Vietnam. Heck, the CIA trained a Cuban Exile Militia to try and overthrow Castro, and you could not even accomplish that. You Know why? Because those comrades were fighting in the name of a better society and national liberation, not some imperialist rouge state. If the North Koreans or Vietcong are 'total retards' what does that tell you about the State of the US military Personell? It also appears that 'total retards' are doing a pretty good job resisting the imperialist occupational government in iraq huh?

And As for your Stock Market Fairy tale:

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/3674/sharestocksmutualretire0re.th.gif

Do you seriously think that Workers have enough Money to Purchase the Means of production? And Anyway, why should they be forced to buy the machinery they use every day to produce commodities that are taken from them?! Seizing the Means of Production through force is far more preferable, not working within the system.

RedAnarchist

7th June 2006, 11:18

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 01:14 AM
Yeah, like The U.S OF A is gonna lose against Venezuela or Cuba!
I wonder if they said that about Vietnam?

Herman

7th June 2006, 11:24

I really am beginning to hate these idiots who come here talking about 'the free world' and talking about the poor as if it's their fault alone that they're poor. Moderators, please delete their accounts and silence them once and for all.

RedAnarchist

7th June 2006, 11:26

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 09:25 AM
I really am beginning to hate these idiots who come here talking about 'the free world' and talking about the poor as if it's their fault alone that they're poor. Moderators, please delete their accounts and silence them once and for all.
The moderators can't do, only Admins can.

Anyway, it's fun to keep them around and to utterly destroy their regressive views. :D

Herman

7th June 2006, 11:43

The moderators can't do, only Admins can.

Anyway, it's fun to keep them around and to utterly destroy their regressive views.

They deserve to be silenced, no less. I hope an admin comes here and bans them from these forums.

BobKKKindle$

7th June 2006, 12:02

I wonder if they said that about Vietnam?

Amen to That ;)

overlord

7th June 2006, 13:05

bobkindles

Its Ironic that you critcize the poor state of the North Korean Military when uneducated peasants known as the Vietcong used Punji Sticks, Mig 21s, Trip Wires, and AKs to boot the American imperialist Bastards with their helicoptor gunships and fighter jets out of Vietnam. Heck, the CIA trained a Cuban Exile Militia to try and overthrow Castro, and you could not even accomplish that. You Know why? Because those comrades were fighting in the name of a better society and national liberation, not some imperialist rouge state. If the North Koreans or Vietcong are 'total retards' what does that tell you about the State of the US military Personell? It also appears that 'total retards' are doing a pretty good job resisting the imperialist occupational government in iraq huh?

The North Korean pilots had slightly better planes than the Americans but shocking training. People are expendable in communism after all. They were shot down 10:1 North Koreans vs. Americans.

As for the overthrow of Castro, Kennedy was in charge of that so what do you expect. He was firm but very reluctant to commit Americans overseas. Do you seriously think that pissydog trashfaced ugly mother bastard cokehead crackhead Castro could outgeneral the USA?

To the resistance in Iraq, that is Al-Kaida - the most right wing fundumentalist nationalists you can get. Their leader says: "Socialists are infidels". So who do you as a communist want to win?

As to the Vietcong I just completed a couse on the Vietnam war and it is readily apparant that Lyndon Johnson was completely unwilling to seem to be fighting a war due to his Great Society commitments, hence the lack of war declaration against North Vietnam. Imagine if the USA had the brains to actually declare war on NORTH VIETNAM, invade, cut off the Ho Chi Minh trail at its source, instead of bombing the South, (allies), and alienating the entire south vietnamese population? The Vietnamese nationalists in the NLF would then have the united country they dreamed of.

And As for your Stock Market Fairy tale:

I have better than 20:20 vision but can't read that.

Do you seriously think that Workers have enough Money to Purchase the Means of production? And Anyway, why should they be forced to buy the machinery they use every day to produce commodities that are taken from them?! Seizing the Means of Production through force is far more preferable, not working within the system.

I did say start with $2000 ;) After a big crash you can increase your money 7* in the right stocks. Why do you even need a revolution with the opportunities offered by modern capitalism? Do you want to live in a poor country where no business is transacted?

Redharman:

I really am beginning to hate these idiots who come here talking about 'the free world'

Then go live in the unfree world where you get killed for being raped, being homosexual, being RICH, being clever, changing religion and advocating atheism. Please, leave the 'free world'.

and talking about the poor as if it's their fault alone that they're poor.

So whose fault is it, the tooth fairy? :rolleyes: Jeese, i know you guys don't beleive in free will, but somewhere along the line lies individual responsibility. You have individual responsibility not to commit crime don't you? Why not individual responsibility to also be constructive?

Moderators, please delete their accounts and silence them once and for all.

Communists have a habit of silencing their opponents. Be thankful you live in a bourgeoise society where you cannot be silenced.

RevMARKSman

7th June 2006, 13:19

So whose fault is it, the tooth fairy? Jeese, i know you guys don't beleive in free will, but somewhere along the line lies individual responsibility. You have individual responsibility not to commit crime don't you? Why not individual responsibility to also be constructive?

Do you know what it's like to live from paycheck to paycheck, almost always owe something, never have enough money, and have to support a family? I think not. There is no MONEY to invest, there is no TIME to invest for these people.

RedAnarchist

7th June 2006, 13:19

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 11:06 AM
Communists have a habit of silencing their opponents. Be thankful you live in a bourgeoise society where you cannot be silenced.
We live in a capitalist society, controlled by the bourgoisie. It isn't a bourgoise society.

If we silence our opponents, how come we let you have a whole forum on our site to post in? We don't need to have reactionaries as members, but we do.

BobKKKindle$

7th June 2006, 13:26

To the resistance in Iraq, that is Al-Kaida - the most right wing fundumentalist nationalists you can get. Their leader says: "Socialists are infidels". So who do you as a communist want to win?

I may get slammed by my fellow comrades, but I want Al Kaida to demonstrate to the world that Imperialist Bastards will not emerge victorious when they impose their rule on other countries. When It comes to Defeating American Neo Colonialism, I will stand shoulder to shoulder with nationalist militants if that is what it takes.

Imagine if the USA had the brains

I have a pretty vivid imagination, but thats pushing it too far. But as regards to the US putting in a proper effort in closing the Ho Chi Minh Trail, correct me please, but did the US not invade the portions of Laos occupied by North Vietnam on 13 February 1971 in a failed attempt to close the Ho Chi Minh Trail? Not to mention the obscene amounts of explosives and chemical wepaons they used to try and prevent the national liberation struggle.

I have better than 20:20 vision but can't read that.

Ill do it for you. The Top 1% of income earners hold 42% of stock assets.

After a big crash you can increase your money 7* in the right stocks

You have inaverdantly admitted that Capitalism is prone to periodic failures and declining rates of profit. Good Job. Does it not strike you as unfair or absurd that during these crashes, millions are thrown out of work and onto the streets in the name of preserving profitability? Oh, I forget, they can buy all those stocks with their unemployment benefit.

Why do you even need a revolution with the opportunities offered by modern capitalism?

Oppurtunities? Dont make me laugh. Under Capitalism, vast privelages and oppurtunities are derived from the hereditary ownership of Capital and wealth, and education prospects at one end of the scale, and a cycle of deprivaiton that limits oppurtunities and power at the other end. It may interest you to know that There is a 38% chnace that you will remain in the same social class as your parents; great oppurtunity. You can only have oppurtunity through the ownership and control of the means of production - and that is impossible to achieve without revolution.

i know you guys don't beleive in free will,

A Capitalist Talking about Free will! Hah! What about wage slavery under Capitalism? Is it free? Workers have virtually no choice in the type of work they perform, the work is fundamentally boring and alienating, and they are subject to strict control at work. Not to mention the fact that they have no ownership of the MoP or the commodities they produce. if you think Capitlaists and workers participate in fair and equal exchange, you are deluded - The Workers have nothing to lose but their chains!

Herman

7th June 2006, 22:09

Communists have a habit of silencing their opponents. Be thankful you live in a bourgeoise society where you cannot be silenced.

I am not thankful of living in a decadent bourgeois controlled society. It's not that we aren't silenced. The bougeois don't need to. They've brainwashed the whole population to be against us. Every government silences their opponents one way or the other.

violencia.Proletariat

7th June 2006, 22:48

It's not my fault recruiters go after the poor.

Sure it is. You are a supporter of the capitalist class and the military. You are an advocate of sending poor people to their deaths for your interest, it is entirely your fault.

but you must admit the rich have other priorities.

Of course they can't do their own dirty work when they can just force someone else to do it for them.

Poor people generally just languish around going from one minimum wage job to another

Hmmm, wheres your praise for class mobility? :lol:

Oh and I wouldn't look down of people who feed, clothe, and shelter you.

fail to save and invest in stock

A gamble. One with especially terrible odds for someone who does not know the con.

and then blame the capitalists for their predicament

Your right we should blame the Jews, Blacks, and Poor people, oh wait :rolleyes:

The time for blame is over, we owe you know explanation to take back the means of production, we'll just do it.

Tungsten

8th June 2006, 00:31

bobkindles

It may interest you to know that There is a 38% chnace that you will remain in the same social class as your parents; great oppurtunity.
Thicko parents who are unlikely to get anywhere will tend to produce thicko offspring who are also unlikely to get anywhere. What an earth-shattering revelation.

You can only have oppurtunity through the ownership and control of the means of production - and that is impossible to achieve without revolution
I thought the means of production were produced by the working class? In this case why do you need a revolution? Or am I not supposed to ask?

A Capitalist Talking about Free will! Hah! What about wage slavery under Capitalism?
It's not slavery, though is it? I'm sure that's been explained before.

Is it free? Workers have virtually no choice in the type of work they perform, the work is fundamentally boring and alienating, and they are subject to strict control at work.
The more ambiguous the statement, the more meaningless it invariably is.
RedHerman

I am not thankful of living in a decadent bourgeois controlled society. It's not that we aren't silenced. The bougeois don't need to. They've brainwashed the whole population to be against us.
Maybe the whole population thinks communism sucks. It's not like they need persuading, is it?
violencia.Proletariat

The time for blame is over, we owe you know explanation to take back the means of production, we'll just do it.
What entitles you to a share of something you've played no part in building? Is it because you happen to belong to the same class as someone who did build these means of production? I thought communism was supposed to signal the end of unearned class privelages.

violencia.Proletariat

8th June 2006, 00:35

What entitles you to a share of something you've played no part in building?

This is what you should be asking yourself. Afterall you are not of the proletarian class are you? If so you are a traitor.

Is it because you happen to belong to the same class as someone who did build these means of production?

Yes my class builds and maintains the means of production.

I thought communism was supposed to signal the end of unearned class privelages.

Yes, thats why we will overthrow you, suppress you for as long as necessary, and live in a classless society.

BobKKKindle$

8th June 2006, 01:29

Thicko parents who are unlikely to get anywhere will tend to produce thicko offspring who are also unlikely to get anywhere. What an earth-shattering revelation.

So How exactly is Capitalism the glorious free market paradise, full of entrepenurial oppurtunity that you claim it to be? And for the record, some of the most intelligent people in history have come from under under-privelaged backgrounds e.g. Sir issac Newton. And Vica versa. You cannot equate poverty and stupidity. Or Are you saying that African American are more stupid, hence they have a higher poverty rate in the US? A Fascist are we?

I thought the means of production were produced by the working class? In this case why do you need a revolution? Or am I not supposed to ask?

Yes, all means of production, or commodities, are producd by the working class, and are essentially stores of labour value. Therefore, should the working class not own them, instead of having them in the hands of the Capitalists?

It's not slavery, though is it? I'm sure that's been explained before.

Perhaps you can explain, I have never had it proved to me before. EVen if one puts aside all the stuff about the work being alienating, boring, it is a clear fact that the worker is not payed the full value of the commodity he produces, and does not own or control the MOP or the produced commodities. Fair?

theraven

8th June 2006, 04:05

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 07:21 AM
Its Ironic that you critcize the poor state of the North Korean Military when uneducated peasants known as the Vietcong used Punji Sticks, Mig 21s, Trip Wires, and AKs to boot the American imperialist Bastards with their helicoptor gunships and fighter jets out of Vietnam. Heck, the CIA trained a Cuban Exile Militia to try and overthrow Castro, and you could not even accomplish that. You Know why? Because those comrades were fighting in the name of a better society and national liberation, not some imperialist rouge state. If the North Koreans or Vietcong are 'total retards' what does that tell you about the State of the US military Personell? It also appears that 'total retards' are doing a pretty good job resisting the imperialist occupational government in iraq huh?

And As for your Stock Market Fairy tale:

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/3674/sharestocksmutualretire0re.th.gif

Do you seriously think that Workers have enough Money to Purchase the Means of production? And Anyway, why should they be forced to buy the machinery they use every day to produce commodities that are taken from them?! Seizing the Means of Production through force is far more preferable, not working within the system.
the US military never lost an engagement in vietnam. even the famous tet offensive was a disaster. the reason we lost was americans gave up.

ummProfessional

8th June 2006, 04:59

the US military never lost an engagement in vietnam. even the famous tet offensive was a disaster. the reason we lost was americans gave up.

exactly, do you guys call a ratio of 1 american for 10 vietnamese a lost war?LMAO!

overlord

8th June 2006, 10:14

monicatmed

Do you know what it's like to live from paycheck to paycheck, almost always owe something, never have enough money, and have to support a family? I think not. There is no MONEY to invest, there is no TIME to invest for these people.

Then they can get drunk and lie in the gutter like a good little pauper/pauperess. CHRIST does everyone need to be babysat until they're senile? 'Right Mr Smith, you seem to have spent all your cash, here's some more, no problem! This is why in socialist countries you need to carry cash around in a wheelbarrow to buy a loaf of bread made from sawdust water and glue.

bobkindles

A Capitalist Talking about Free will! Hah! What about wage slavery under Capitalism? Is it free? Workers have virtually no choice in the type of work they perform, the work is fundamentally boring and alienating, and they are subject to strict control at work. Not to mention the fact that they have no ownership of the MoP or the commodities they produce.

Don't beleive in free will? There is plenty of free will under capitalism, more than under any other system. INCLUDING COMMUNISM Want freedom to work? Its there. Want freedom not to work? Its there. Want freedom to make a million, its there! Like you're gonna make a million dollars in a communist country! :rolleyes: HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH! What a hoot! I'M CRACKING UP!!!!

if you think Capitlaists and workers participate in fair and equal exchange, you are deluded - The Workers have nothing to lose but their chains!

Henry Ford: "Thinking is the hardest work". This is why innovation pays the most.
Those workers don't really have to think as much as their boss, which is why they are paid less. And You think the boss stops thinking about his business come knock off time? Entrepreneurship is a 15 hour a day job.

You have inaverdantly admitted that Capitalism is prone to periodic failures and declining rates of profit. Good Job. Does it not strike you as unfair or absurd that during these crashes, millions are thrown out of work and onto the streets in the name of preserving profitability? Oh, I forget, they can buy all those stocks with their unemployment benefit.

OOOOOOO! What have I admitted? :rolleyes: Really, I don't care whether you think capitalism is unfair. DO YOU HEAR ME? Anyway, you guys just HATE profits, oh they're terrible shocking things! YUK!

The 1929-33 crash destroyed greedy Old Money and issued in new billionaires who had the cash to take advantage of low prices. Look at Getty he sold some land and bought up big. By the 70's he was the richest man in the world, going from millionaire to billionaire by his canny oil stock purchases. You don't like it when people are employed and it seems you also don't like it when they are thrown out of their exploitative jobs! AMAZING! AGAIN I'm CRACKING UP!

In fact, I WANT A CRASH! But stupid socialist monetary policy is preventing enough momentum in terms of the irrational exuberance of the money cycle from building up, and i've got all this cash saved and everything...

Ill do it for you. The Top 1% of income earners hold 42% of stock assets.

So what? We should redistribute all industry since people keep deciding to have more children? Hey, you've got ten kids, have ten capital units. No one would bother building new factories!

BobKKKindle$

8th June 2006, 15:49

the US military never lost an engagement in vietnam. even the famous tet offensive was a disaster. the reason we lost was americans gave up.

So by your logic, No country has ever lost a military engagement, because they surrendered ('gave up') instead of fighting to the last man, woman, and child.

In fact, I WANT A CRASH! But stupid socialist monetary policy is preventing enough momentum in terms of the irrational exuberance of the money cycle from building up, and i've got all this cash saved and everything...

Firstly, Us monetary and fiscal policy is derived from the ideas of Milton Friedman - Monetarism - Which is traditionally oppossed to state intervention and encourages the dominance of the free market. Secondly, you look forward to people being thrown into the gutters, so you can make money off other people's work? And You Wonder Why we Leftists get so aggravated and bloodthirsty? I Look forward to personally pinning your type of people against the wall and ramming a rifle bayonet through your skulls.

Want freedom to work? Its There

So, During the Great Depression (I use the 1930s as an example so you dont try and divert the issue by saying welfare encourages laziness) A third of the US workforce was queing up at soup kitchens because it was fun?

Then they can get drunk and lie in the gutter like a good little pauper/pauperess

All Hail the System that encourages the right of the individual, oppurtunity, and fairness.

exactly, do you guys call a ratio of 1 american for 10 vietnamese a lost war?LMAO

"You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it.” - Ho Chi Minh, 1965

It took 13 years. But you did not impose imperialism upon Vietnam. Not until globalisation, anyway :angry:

Tungsten

8th June 2006, 20:51

violencia.Proletariat

This is what you should be asking yourself. Afterall you are not of the proletarian class are you?
I'm a worker. I work for a living.

If so you are a traitor.
Traitor to what? I don't hold allegience to anyone; no god - no master. I'll tell you where you can shove your "class loyalty", but I suspect you already know.

Yes my class builds and maintains the means of production.
It evidently doesn't if it needs to seize the pre-existing ones, otherwise it would just build it's own.
bobkindles

So How exactly is Capitalism the glorious free market paradise, full of entrepenurial oppurtunity that you claim it to be?
It allows everyone to rise to the level of their ability. Not everyone has ability, so not everyone is going to be at the same level.

And for the record, some of the most intelligent people in history have come from under under-privelaged backgrounds e.g. Sir issac Newton. And Vica versa. You cannot equate poverty and stupidity.
I never did. Thank you for proving my point.

Or Are you saying that African American are more stupid, hence they have a higher poverty rate in the US?
What, all of them?

Yes, all means of production, or commodities, are producd by the working class, and are essentially stores of labour value. Therefore, should the working class not own them, instead of having them in the hands of the Capitalists?
No. If you were paid to make something for a price, the price is your reward, not the product.

Perhaps you can explain, I have never had it proved to me before. EVen if one puts aside all the stuff about the work being alienating, boring, it is a clear fact that the worker is not payed the full value of the commodity he produces, and does not own or control the MOP or the produced commodities. Fair?
What the capitalist does with the labour he purchsed from you is out of your hands. He might sell it at a profit or a loss, but you've sold it, so it's no longer yours. Values are subjective and labour on it's own doesn't give something value, there are a number of factors involved, such as technology and scarcity.
Slavery is being compelled to work under threat of violence.

And You Wonder Why we Leftists get so aggravated and bloodthirsty?
Because you're psychotic?

I Look forward to personally pinning your type of people against the wall and ramming a rifle bayonet through your skulls.
Great. Another student crusader with a list of infidels to kill. Stereotype or what?

So, During the Great Depression (I use the 1930s as an example so you dont try and divert the issue by saying welfare encourages laziness)
Welfare encourages laziness. You pay people to do nothing, they will do nothing.

violencia.Proletariat

8th June 2006, 21:53

I'll tell you where you can shove your "class loyalty", but I suspect you already know.

Then you are a traitor.

It evidently doesn't if it needs to seize the pre-existing ones, otherwise it would just build it's own.

Because thats clearly what I ment by that :rolleyes: What I ment by build the means of production is that we build the factories just as we had in the past.

You can't just build seperate infrastructures to maintain society. The resources that exist are already supplying the means or production, so it couldn't support a whole new national infrastructure. Why would we waste the endless resources it would take to build a new 'mop' when we can just retake the one that already exists with much less exertion. In order to build it anyway, you would have to seize the prexisting ones to manufacture the materials to build it.

theraven

9th June 2006, 06:00

So by your logic, No country has ever lost a military engagement, because they surrendered ('gave up') instead of fighting to the last man, woman, and child.

i was refering to individual battles not the war itsefl. we obviously lost the war in the sense that we failled to achieve our objective. however it is indisputabel that had the US populace allowed it we would hav been victorioius.

Ho Chi Minh was of course correct, hwoever he was also not much of a communist but a nationalist. its to bad we didn't side with him in the 50s

BobKKKindle$

9th June 2006, 06:46

What, all of them?

No, of course not. But on average, Those of African Descent are far more likely to be unemployed, incarcerated, and below the poverty line than other racial groups in the US. And By your 'principles' this is because they are stupider. According to you, there is no need for education or healthcare under Capitalism, because there is total social mobility and total meritocracy, So by logic, african americans must be inherently stupider on average than caucasians. Moderators...I smell a fascist.

Welfare encourages laziness. You pay people to do nothing, they will do nothing

People will only choose welfare over a wage if the work is so monotonous, repetitive, boring, and alienating, that they cannot take it. I.e. Work under Capitalism. But you have failed to answer my point - there was no welfare in 1929 - so, if Capitalism offers everybody the right to work, why were people lying in the gutter or selling off their posessions?

Slavery is being compelled to work under threat of violence

Wage labour is being compelled to work under the threat of starvation, poverty, or a measly life under the Welfare system. The vast mass of workers avaliable means that its a buyers market - The Capitalist can pick and choose and dictate the price. He then sells the commodities that other people have produced for his benefit!

Great. Another student crusader with a list of infidels to kill. Stereotype or what?

An neo-con unable to look past the Stars and Stripes and Napalm-ed Vietnamese Children (in the name of freedom) and his profit record to see the human side of things and the exploitaiton under the system. Stereotype or what?

was refering to individual battles not the war itsefl.

Vietnam was genreally a war of attrition and 'Hit-and-run' tactics, so individual battles were rather meaningless. The Tet offensive was a victory psycologically for Ho Chi Minh and the Vietcong

Values are subjective and labour on it's own doesn't give something value, there are a number of factors involved, such as technology and scarcity

Hence the Marxist Concepts of Fixed cost, Variable Cost, and Surplus Value.

Kuro Morfos

9th June 2006, 08:28

Thats just silly, how is Venezuela a threat to us? As for Cuba, we have tried to assisinate Castro a million times already, he is invincible it seems.

overlord

9th June 2006, 10:59

COMPLETE BOBKINDLES REFUTATION!

"You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it.” - Ho Chi Minh, 1965

It took 13 years. But you did not impose imperialism upon Vietnam. Not until globalisation, anyway

And now Vietnam is the CHEAPEST minumum wage in the world, Hehehe, 5cents US per hour! Not that I would open a factory there, still too communist.

People will only choose welfare over a wage if the work is so monotonous, repetitive, boring, and alienating, that they cannot take it. I.e. Work under Capitalism. But you have failed to answer my point - there was no welfare in 1929 - so, if Capitalism offers everybody the right to work, why were people lying in the gutter or selling off their posessions?

Oh and those communist factories are real funhouses? They're like Disneyland! YAY! And people were living in the gutter because that's what they deserve! I mean what's the point in hoarding valuable possesions if you never sell them anyway?

An neo-con unable to look past the Stars and Stripes and Napalm-ed Vietnamese Children (in the name of freedom) and his profit record to see the human side of things and the exploitaiton under the system. Stereotype or what?

Maybe Tungsten can explain it to you. Ok Tungsten, tell us about the napalm attacks you experienced whilst working in your factory. Tell us the horror of the exploitataion! :o Tell us of the HORROR of being dragged to work in an unmarked car at gunpoint every weekday morning and then being shackled to your furnace for 15 hours a day and whipped by an oversear! You can't deny these things happen under our exploitative system, can you, traitor? You must really hate workers. I pity you. You really really really need to be put against a wall and bayonetted don't you. :rolleyes:

The Tet offensive was a victory psycologically for Ho Chi Minh and the Vietcong

50000 North Vietnmaese died in that offensive. Some victory. :rolleyes:

So, During the Great Depression (I use the 1930s as an example so you dont try and divert the issue by saying welfare encourages laziness) A third of the US workforce was queing up at soup kitchens because it was fun?

They took a gamble on the stock market and lost. What, they should have been compensated for it?

Firstly, Us monetary and fiscal policy is derived from the ideas of Milton Friedman - Monetarism - Which is traditionally oppossed to state intervention and encourages the dominance of the free market.

I just with they'd stop moving interest rates up and down to cool things down. Taking the 'heat' out takes away the fun of capitalism our stockmarket ancestors enjoyed. They wanna put the economy on a linear curve which is just plain boring.

Secondly, you look forward to people being thrown into the gutters, so you can make money off other people's work?

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyep! And capitalists do plenty of work. That's how they got rich duh?

And You Wonder Why we Leftists get so aggravated and bloodthirsty? I Look forward to personally pinning your type of people against the wall and ramming a rifle bayonet through your skulls.

HEHeheheheh ...............phyco alert! :lol:

BobKKKindle$

9th June 2006, 16:08

And now Vietnam is the CHEAPEST minumum wage in the world, Hehehe, 5cents US per hour! Not that I would open a factory there, still too communist.

Hence the reason that I said that you did not impose imperialism on Vietnam until the era of globalisation. Sure, Now the country is once again being exploited in the name of US coporations. Yet another reason to support countries that speak out against the exploitaiton of the poor south.

And people were living in the gutter because that's what they deserve! I mean what's the point in hoarding valuable possesions if you never sell them anyway?

You have no idea of how absurd that comment sounds. So The impoverished deserve their state simply because Capitalism is subject to periodic crises due to declining rates of productivity due to the over production of commodities? And if you dont like hoarding Posessions, you can hand the means of production over to the workers.

You must really hate workers. I pity you

In response to that entire rambling rant: What did i say that you were trying to argue against?! What were you trying to prove?! What is this crap about Napalmed Factories?!

They took a gamble on the stock market and lost. What, they should have been compensated for it?

I was not referring to Speculators. I was tlaking about the normal workers that were unemployed when your economy crashed. Did they deserve it?!

Taking the 'heat' out takes away the fun of capitalism our stockmarket ancestors enjoyed

Yes, because the Business Cycle is really 'fun'. Just because a graph looks like a roller coaster does not mean it is as enjoyable as a theme park you know. Ask the workers who were thrown out of work during slumps if they had fun. And then see if you can remember the answer when you wake up in hospital.

Tungsten

9th June 2006, 19:02

bobkindles

No, of course not. But on average, Those of African Descent are far more likely to be unemployed, incarcerated, and below the poverty line than other racial groups in the US. And By your 'principles' this is because they are stupider.
I didn't say lack of intelligence was the only cause, but it is a cause.

According to you, there is no need for education or healthcare under Capitalism, because there is total social mobility and total meritocracy,
How would that omit the need for education and healthcare? Ridiculous.

So by logic, african americans must be inherently stupider on average than caucasians. Moderators...I smell a fascist.
I'm an individualist, you fool. I judge people individual basis. And racism isn't inherently fascist; I know many socialists who are also racist, but not militantly so.

People will only choose welfare over a wage if the work is so monotonous, repetitive, boring, and alienating, that they cannot take it. I.e. Work under Capitalism.
If I have the choice between earning a certain sum of money working and recieving the same sum of money watching TV all day, which will I choose?

But you have failed to answer my point - there was no welfare in 1929 - so, if Capitalism offers everybody the right to work,
It doesn't. You'll notice something about my definitions of capitalism in comparison to your definitions of socialism. Mine are methodology based, whereas yours are results based. You promise the earth without having a clue how to deliver it (and when you fail, you say that it wasn't an example of "real socialism" because it failed).

Wage labour is being compelled to work under the threat of starvation, poverty, or a measly life under the Welfare system.
A threat from whom?

The vast mass of workers avaliable means that its a buyers market - The Capitalist can pick and choose and dictate the price.
Prices are a two-way street.

An neo-con
I'm a libertarian minarchist.

unable to look past the Stars and Stripes
I'm British.

and Napalm-ed Vietnamese Children (in the name of freedom)
Children again? Why is it always children? You statists really are a bunch of maniplulators.

Hence the Marxist Concepts of Fixed cost, Variable Cost, and Surplus Value.
Which have nothing to do with what I was talking about. Values are subjective- there's no such thing as "surplus value".

BobKKKindle$

9th June 2006, 19:32

Prices are a two-way street.

Try going into a shop and offering a price. Or, if you have a job, try negotiating a wage without the presence of a very powerful union organisaiton behind you. Then tell me whether prices are a 'two way street'. You are wrong - in terms of the labour market - the Capitalist dominates.

I didn't say lack of intelligence was the only cause, but it is a cause

Oh, so you are conceding that one's family privelages, and, by extension, education, could effect success? So Capitalism us surely not the incredible meritocracy that you claim to be if such things exist.

It doesn't

Now at least you are conceding things. Do you think this is fair? Afterall, under Capitalism anyone can succeed through hard work right? Thats the American Capitalist Dream that I am always hearing about. Even when Unemployment rates are hitting 40%, as in 1929...

If I have the choice between earning a certain sum of money working and recieving the same sum of money watching TV all day, which will I choose?

Must sleep now, add more tomorrow

Tungsten

9th June 2006, 20:38

bobkindles

Try going into a shop and offering a price.
You'll have better luck at a market.

Or, if you have a job, try negotiating a wage without the presence of a very powerful union organisaiton behind you.
I've done it twice. I have a voice of my own, I don't need a union.

Oh, so you are conceding that one's family privelages, and, by extension, education, could effect success? So Capitalism us surely not the incredible meritocracy that you claim to be if such things exist.
Family privelages such what? A high IQ? Good looks? Well, yeah, that helps. You can still advance as far as your ablility takes you, anyway; just because some can suceed easier than others doesn't change that fact.

Now at least you are conceding things. Do you think this is fair?
Capitalism doesn't offer the right to work and I don't think it should either. I've explained why in the other post.

Afterall, under Capitalism anyone can succeed through hard work right?
Thats the American Capitalist Dream that I am always hearing about. Even when Unemployment rates are hitting 40%, as in 1929...
There's more to it than mere "hard work". Clever work and ingenuity is also needed.

theraven

10th June 2006, 00:30

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 03:47 AM

What, all of them?

No, of course not. But on average, Those of African Descent are far more likely to be unemployed, incarcerated, and below the poverty line than other racial groups in the US. And By your 'principles' this is because they are stupider. According to you, there is no need for education or healthcare under Capitalism, because there is total social mobility and total meritocracy, So by logic, african americans must be inherently stupider on average than caucasians. Moderators...I smell a fascist.

Welfare encourages laziness. You pay people to do nothing, they will do nothing

People will only choose welfare over a wage if the work is so monotonous, repetitive, boring, and alienating, that they cannot take it. I.e. Work under Capitalism. But you have failed to answer my point - there was no welfare in 1929 - so, if Capitalism offers everybody the right to work, why were people lying in the gutter or selling off their posessions?

Slavery is being compelled to work under threat of violence

Wage labour is being compelled to work under the threat of starvation, poverty, or a measly life under the Welfare system. The vast mass of workers avaliable means that its a buyers market - The Capitalist can pick and choose and dictate the price. He then sells the commodities that other people have produced for his benefit!

Great. Another student crusader with a list of infidels to kill. Stereotype or what?

An neo-con unable to look past the Stars and Stripes and Napalm-ed Vietnamese Children (in the name of freedom) and his profit record to see the human side of things and the exploitaiton under the system. Stereotype or what?

was refering to individual battles not the war itsefl.

Vietnam was genreally a war of attrition and 'Hit-and-run' tactics, so individual battles were rather meaningless. The Tet offensive was a victory psycologically for Ho Chi Minh and the Vietcong

Values are subjective and labour on it's own doesn't give something value, there are a number of factors involved, such as technology and scarcity

Hence the Marxist Concepts of Fixed cost, Variable Cost, and Surplus Value.

Welfare encourages laziness. You pay people to do nothing, they will do nothing

People will only choose welfare over a wage if the work is so monotonous, repetitive, boring, and alienating, that they cannot take it. I.e. Work under Capitalism. But you have failed to answer my point - there was no welfare in 1929 - so, if Capitalism offers everybody the right to work, why were people lying in the gutter or selling off their posessions?

most work IS monotonous and repeitive. the best way to make a car is an assembly line where each worker deos the same thing over and over again. not everyone can be an artist or writer or whatever you want to be. jobs are ideally things you enjoy, but they also serve the purpose of providing you money, which is their piramy purpose.

in 1929 there wasn't enough jobs for everyone to work because the economy had problems. of course this corrected itself (and would have done so without the new deal and wwii)

Slavery is being compelled to work under threat of violence

Wage labour is being compelled to work under the threat of starvation, poverty, or a measly life under the Welfare system. The vast mass of workers avaliable means that its a buyers market - The Capitalist can pick and choose and dictate the price. He then sells the commodities that other people have produced for his benefit!

a capitilist buys a material, pays people a wage they agree to and sells the material (hopefuly for a profit). he is taking a large risk, the worker is not, thus he earns more. workers get paid regardless if thier product sells or not.

Great. Another student crusader with a list of infidels to kill. Stereotype or what?

An neo-con unable to look past the Stars and Stripes and Napalm-ed Vietnamese Children (in the name of freedom) and his profit record to see the human side of things and the exploitaiton under the system. Stereotype or what?

besides the fact that neo-cons were not aroudn in vietnam, he was pointing out that the person looked like the stereotype, not that it was alway ture.

was refering to individual battles not the war itsefl.

Vietnam was genreally a war of attrition and 'Hit-and-run' tactics, so individual battles were rather meaningless. The Tet offensive was a victory psycologically for Ho Chi Minh and the Vietcong

american won the small engagments too, they usualy killed the teams that killed thier members. again the problem was in the lack of an offesneive startegy and the problems domesticaly.

Values are subjective and labour on it's own doesn't give something value, there are a number of factors involved, such as technology and scarcity

Hence the Marxist Concepts of Fixed cost, Variable Cost, and Surplus Value.

marxist economics are a joke-wtf is surplus value?

Sabocat

10th June 2006, 01:29

Henry Ford: "Thinking is the hardest work". This is why innovation pays the most.
Those workers don't really have to think as much as their boss, which is why they are paid less. And You think the boss stops thinking about his business come knock off time? Entrepreneurship is a 15 hour a day job.

Henry Ford said "Thinking is the hardest work". Of course he did. He said that because he never hung tires on an assembly line for 10-12 hours or lost a limb in a combine on a farm, or was killed in a coal mine. What a fucking insult.

The "entrepreneur thinks about his business for 15 hours a day"...ON NO!!!!!!!!! How cruel. He actually has to sit and think of how to maximize his profits and minimize his expenses (labor). While he's thinking about his business, some worker is most likely selling his labor, and most likely his health to just survive to the benefit of the "entrepreneur".

How many entrepreneurs died last year at work? Who had more deaths at the work place do you think? The entrepreneur or the worker?

Imbecile.

JimmyC

10th June 2006, 05:03

I don't think we're gonna invade this Venezuela place. Who cares what they do there. But I got some friends in Cuba and Miami, and they tell me that when Old BigBeard kicks over, the place will become the 51st state. Sounds great to me.

theraven

10th June 2006, 07:34

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 10:30 PM

Henry Ford: "Thinking is the hardest work". This is why innovation pays the most.
Those workers don't really have to think as much as their boss, which is why they are paid less. And You think the boss stops thinking about his business come knock off time? Entrepreneurship is a 15 hour a day job.

Henry Ford said "Thinking is the hardest work". Of course he did. He said that because he never hung tires on an assembly line for 10-12 hours or lost a limb in a combine on a farm, or was killed in a coal mine. What a fucking insult.

The "entrepreneur thinks about his business for 15 hours a day"...ON NO!!!!!!!!! How cruel. He actually has to sit and think of how to maximize his profits and minimize his expenses (labor). While he's thinking about his business, some worker is most likely selling his labor, and most likely his health to just survive to the benefit of the "entrepreneur".

How many entrepreneurs died last year at work? Who had more deaths at the work place do you think? The entrepreneur or the worker?

Imbecile.
never ran a buisness eh?

Tungsten

10th June 2006, 10:28

Disgustapated

How many entrepreneurs died last year at work? Who had more deaths at the work place do you think? The entrepreneur or the worker?
What has that got to do with anything. Work isn't work unless it's manual labour and you're putting your life on the line doing it? Hogwash.

redstar2000

10th June 2006, 13:18

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 09:04 PM
I don't think we're gonna invade this Venezuela place. Who cares what they do there. But I got some friends in Cuba and Miami, and they tell me that when Old BigBeard kicks over, the place will become the 51st state. Sounds great to me.
Venezuela has oil reserves at "Saudi" levels...someone "cares", believe me.

I dare say your scumbag friends in Miami are looking forward with gleeful anticipation to riding on the back of U.S. tanks through downtown Havana. Imagining they'll be welcomed with kisses and flowers...like U.S. troops were "welcomed" to Baghdad. :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Sabocat

10th June 2006, 16:52

Originally posted by theraven+Jun 10 2006, 12:35 AM--> (theraven @ Jun 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
[email protected] 9 2006, 10:30 PM

Henry Ford: "Thinking is the hardest work". This is why innovation pays the most.
Those workers don't really have to think as much as their boss, which is why they are paid less. And You think the boss stops thinking about his business come knock off time? Entrepreneurship is a 15 hour a day job.

Henry Ford said "Thinking is the hardest work". Of course he did. He said that because he never hung tires on an assembly line for 10-12 hours or lost a limb in a combine on a farm, or was killed in a coal mine. What a fucking insult.

The "entrepreneur thinks about his business for 15 hours a day"...ON NO!!!!!!!!! How cruel. He actually has to sit and think of how to maximize his profits and minimize his expenses (labor). While he's thinking about his business, some worker is most likely selling his labor, and most likely his health to just survive to the benefit of the "entrepreneur".

How many entrepreneurs died last year at work? Who had more deaths at the work place do you think? The entrepreneur or the worker?

Imbecile.
never ran a buisness eh? [/b]
Actually I have. I would bet you have not. I can also assure you that it was NOT as hard as swinging a hammer all day. Nice try at a refutation though. Imbecile.

What has that got to do with anything. Work isn't work unless it's manual labour and you're putting your life on the line doing it? Hogwash.

Reading comprehension isn't really your strong suit is it? What I was responding to was the quote by Ford saying "Thinking is the hardest work. It clearly is not the hardest type of work. To compare some suited scumbag CEO's "labor" to that of the actual worker producing the goods and services is "hogwash". From your response though, I would guess that you think that losing a few bucks in the market from your stock options is just as horrible as being dismembered or killed doing your job.

I also find it comical how all the rabid right wingers are all for an invasion of Venezuela (or any other sovereign nation) and the subsequent killing of a duly elected leader(s). So in essence, I guess you all subscribe to the Henry Kissinger school of democratic thought..."The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves."
"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people."

So you're all for democracy, as long as it's your kind of democracy eh? Countries should have no chance of self determination? They should all just be colonies of the mighty imperialist shitholes that want their resources?

overlord

10th June 2006, 17:20

What an angry guy! Well I suppose one has to angry with a world if one wishes to change it. Personally, I'm at peace with it as it is.

Actually I have. I would bet you have not. I can also assure you that it was NOT as hard as swinging a hammer all day. Nice try at a refutation though. Imbecile.

How successful were you?

Reading comprehension isn't really your strong suit is it? What I was responding to was the quote by Ford saying "Thinking is the hardest work. It clearly is not the hardest type of work. To compare some suited scumbag CEO's "labor" to that of the actual worker producing the goods and services is "hogwash". From your response though, I would guess that you think that losing a few bucks in the market from your stock options is just as horrible as being dismembered or killed doing your job.

Henry Ford equated achievement with difficulty. He said a farmer works hard but earns little, and he was raised on the farm. He said that few people work with their heads so it makes the most money. And what's wrong with that? Working with one's head for the betterment of society?

I also find it comical how all the rabid right wingers are all for an invasion of Venezuela (or any other sovereign nation) and the subsequent killing of a duly elected leader(s).

Where does this 'soverieign' thing come from? These are all former colonies anyway.

So in essence, I guess you all subscribe to the Henry Kissinger school of democratic thought..."The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves."
"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people."

I'm sceptical of democracy. Hitler got voted in after all. Capitalism is a moral system as well as an economic one. Let's just let business rule and be happy! :)

So you're all for democracy, as long as it's your kind of democracy eh? Countries should have no chance of self determination? They should all just be colonies of the mighty imperialist shitholes that want their resources?

Well, we have democracies and they're obviously not your kind of democracy. And what's wrong with colonies? Was Africa run better under the Imperialists or the mess we have today? And so what if they have minerals. We shouldn't use them? :rolleyes: Besides, companies like Anvil Mining provide schools for the children of its workers in Congo.

BobKKKindle$

10th June 2006, 17:41

Where does this 'soverieign' thing come from? These are all former colonies anyway

Sovereignty, sometimes also known as National determination, is the idea that a country should not have its affairs interfered or dominated by another state. The concept of sovereignty is something that americans seem unable to understand, as exemplified throughout the 20th century. Supporting and aiding the assasination of president Allende and replacing him with Pinochet would be an example - the people of Chile made a democratic decision to elect a Marxist president, and by violating that decision, the US imposed itself upon Chile. I was not aware that Venezuela or Chile or Cuba were all colonies. Imperialism is the supreme form of Hegemony and violation of national sovereignty, and the hegemonic influence of the US in latin america in the past means that it is all the more important that these countries resist domination now. I find it highly ironic, by the way, that A Minarchist like yourself does not object to dominaiton by a foreign entity!

All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. The Un Definition, from the Covenant.

Capitalism is a moral system as well as an economic one. Let's just let business rule and be happy!

Tell that to the Vietnamese and Iraqis. Your government is, to all intents and purposes, a Corpotocracy, as evidenced by the imperialist agenda of the US. Imperialism is essentially capitlaism's attempt to self-sustain and avoid a declining rate of profit through militarily opening new markets and new supplies of resources. Economic Growth under Capitalism and de facto and de jure National Sovereignty are in direct opposition.

Was Africa run better under the Imperialists or the mess we have today?

First of all, you are a hypocrite: Are you saying you would prefer America to still be run by the British? If Imperialism is so great, then you should answer yes. But As Ghandi said, debating the pros and cons of imperialism is like debating the pros and cons of rape! If thats not clear enough: Imperialism is an utter abomination, and all those who support it (I.e. The Us Governemnt and military) are guilty of murder. Imperialism in Africa resulted in the total disruption of the economic and political development of these countries. Western Powers established a slave-Master economic system - the colonies served no purpose except to provide raw materials. The prime of the african labour force were removed form their home continent for use on the american continent in slave labour! Do you support Slave Labour? Furthermore, the native population were denied educations in economy and administration. This meant that when de-colonization occurred, these countries rapidly descended into chaos, as they had no experience or expertise to run themselves! And Now Western leaders enjoy critcizing leaders such as Robert Mugabe that speak out against the injustice of imperialism...not to mention the neo colonialist agenda of the US.

Capitalism is a moral system huh?

In answer to your question - The Mess today is not alternative to imperialism, it is a result of imperialism. Simple as that.

Besides, companies like Anvil Mining provide schools for the children of its workers in Congo

During the First congo crisis, there were around 12,000 people to one doctor! When the Belgians left, there were 50 graduates in the entire country! The local population achieved no educaiton! They were scarcely viewed as Human!

Sabocat

10th June 2006, 17:47

He said that few people work with their heads so it makes the most money. And what's wrong with that? Working with one's head for the betterment of society?

I didn't realize that Ford was working for the betterment of society. Is that what he was doing as he was having company thugs throw union leaders from the roofs of buildings? Sorry. I guess I missed the humanitarian inuendo. :lol:

Where does this 'soverieign' thing come from? These are all former colonies anyway.

wow.

Capitalism is a moral system as well as an economic one. Let's just let business rule and be happy!

That could be the funniest shit I've ever read on this site, and believe me, there have been some beauties. "Let business rule and be happy"....Not while I still have a breath in me.

And what's wrong with colonies? Was Africa run better under the Imperialists or the mess we have today?

Ask Nelson Mandela. The mess was caused by the Imperialists. It's their legacy.

And so what if they have minerals. We shouldn't use them? rolleyes.gif

Use? Or do you mean steal? So other countries resources are common property? Hmm...perhaps you're closer to communism than you think. :lol:

Besides, companies like Anvil Mining provide schools for the children of its workers in Congo.

Teaching African kids the wonders of the Western world and culture. How lucky for them. The first step in taking over a country is by destroying their history and culture. I can only imagine the "history" they're being taught. Do I really need to point out that having a private companies in the education process is just lunacy?

BobKKKindle$

10th June 2006, 17:53

I would love to hear why you have a level of support for Imperialism, overlord. Feel free to cite the success of countries that were subjected to colonialism by the western powers....I gather the Sudan is Doing spectacuarly well at the moment, as is Rwanda! Not to mention Nigeria and Rwanda!

I hope that you are not serious about aprovving of imperialist dominaiton of Africa and Asia. Not only is that indicative of a preference towards Racism and Social Darwinism (both of which disgrace politics and science respectively) but you also have no evidence to back up claims that Imperialism is 'good'.

"Imperialism is Capitalism in that stage of development in which the domination of monopoly and finance capital has taken shape; in which the export of Capital has acquired profound importance, in which the division of the world by international trusts has begun, and in which partition of the earth by the greatest Capitalist countries has occurrred" Lenin - Imperialism; the Highest Stage of Capitalism.

overlord

10th June 2006, 18:08

Well, where do I begin, bobykins I have been debating for like 6 hours and we just love to disagree with each other:

Sovereignty, sometimes also known as National determination, is the idea that a country should not have its affairs interfered or dominated by another state. The concept of sovereignty is something that americans seem unable to understand, as exemplified throughout the 20th century. Supporting and aiding the assasination of president Allende and replacing him with Pinochet would be an example - the people of Chile made a democratic decision to elect a Marxist president, and by violating that decision, the US imposed itself upon Chile. I was not aware that Venezuela or Chile or Cuba were all colonies. Imperialism is the supreme form of Hegemony and violation of national sovereignty, and the hegemonic influence of the US in latin america in the past means that it is all the more important that these countries resist domination now. I find it highly ironic, by the way, that A Minarchist like yourself does not object to dominaiton but a foreign entity!

All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. The Un Definition, from the Covenant.

Ah! So we are pro Nationalism? We both want globalisation. You want international communism. I want internaitonal capitalism free of governements and their horrendous trade/travel barriers. This is the only way of eliminating povery. You see, poor people will just keep travelling to rich countries until everyone has roughly the same level of wealth. What's wrong with that?

QUOTE
Capitalism is a moral system as well as an economic one. Let's just let business rule and be happy!

Tell that to the Vietnamese and Iraqis. Your government is, to all intents and purposes, a Corpotocracy, as evidenced by the imperialist agenda of the US. Imperialism is essentially capitlaism's attempt to self-sustain and avoid a declining rate of profit through militarily opening new markets and new supplies of resources.

You must think corporation is a dirty work. It isn't Corporations enrich peoples lives by selling people exactly what they demand at ever increasingly competitive prices. Computers are getting cheaper aren't they? What's wrong with that? See, what's wrong with corporatocracy? As for Iraq and Vietnam, I bet they would have been richer without Saddam and Ho and under republican administration.

First of all, you are a hypocrit: Are you say9ng you would prefer America to still be run by the British? But As Ghandi said, debating the pros and cons of imperialism is like debating the pros and cons of rape! If thats not clear enough: Imperialism is an utter abomination, and all those who support it (I.e. The Us Governemnt and military) are guilty of murder. Imperialism in Africa resulted in the total disruption of the economic and political development of these countries. Western Powers established a slave-Master economic system - the colonies served no purpose except to provide raw materials. Furthermore, the native population were denied educaitons in economy and administration. This meant that when de-colonization occurred, these countries rapidly descended into chaos, as they had no experience or expertise to run themselves

Something wrong with the British? They are more Marxist than the Americans for a start. And excepting Belgian Congo, how is imperialism rape? You forget the ultimate aim of imperialism is incorporation. And sure colonies provide raw materials, why not? And de-colonisation reduces Africa to chaos? We should bring the imperialists back in then? I don't think sending Haliburton, Texaco and IBM to Africa would be a backwards step.

And now for Disgustapated:

I didn't realize that Ford was working for the betterment of society. Is that what he was doing as he was having company thugs throw union leaders from the roofs of buildings? Sorry. I guess I missed the humanitarian inuendo.

I didn't hear about that roof incident. First time I've heard it. Bizarre. I'm not sure he would have condoned it. Anyway, the cost of travel by car was reduced into a fraction of what it had been pre-Ford. Everyone could suddenly afford a motor car for $500, which was later reduced instead of having to pay $10,000 for hand built monstrosities. How is this not enriching society? He was responsible for labour reforms as well which led to increased pay and reduced working hours.

wow.

You don't think someone like me can exist like straight out of the nineteenth century? Well here I am!

QUOTE
And so what if they have minerals. We shouldn't use them? rolleyes.gif

Use? Or do you mean steal? So other countries resources are common property? Hmm...perhaps you're closer to communism than you think.

Steal? Royalties for African minerals are like 40%, so they're paying us to dig them out of the ground and give them money.

Teaching African kids the wonders of the Western world and culture. How lucky for them. The first step in taking over a country is by destroying their history and culture. I can only imagine the "history" they're being taught. Do I really need to point out that having a private companies in the education process is just lunacy?

And what's wrong with the Western world. Do you want the Africans in tribal areas to remain entrenched in their superstition?

black magick hustla

10th June 2006, 18:14

holy shit overlord you are an abomination.

i couldnt expect less from you though. :lol:

hello henry kissinger

BobKKKindle$

10th June 2006, 18:23

Actually, I have strong inclinations towards the Juche idea of Kim Il Sung, which upholds national independance above all else. I do not hold international revolution to be a necessity, and instead would prefer a close band of Socialist States. I would not call this Pro-nationalism. Being anti-imperialist does not make me a jingoist. As a Socialist, I am oppossed to the exploitaiton of workers by Capitalists. I view Imperialism as the ascension of Capitalism to an international level; workers are produced by Colonies and LEDCs and Capitalists with advanced nations. I want to see that Class struggle resolved in the same way as internal class struggle - an uprising of the oppressed!

They are more Marxist than the Americans for a start

How can a country be 'more' Marxist than another when they both operate under Capitalism?! Explain this absurd statement. Do you have the faintest understanding of Marxism?!

under republican administration

Prior to 1990, Iraq ranked 50/130 Countries on the UN development Index
It now ranks at a miserable 123 thanks to the wanton destruction and exploitaiton of the occupying imperialist armies. How is that for prosperity under the Republican administration?

roughly the same level of wealth

The late 20th Century has seen huge 'advances' in 'free' trade and immigration. Tell me: Why is it that global inequality has increased? And do you think that condemning the Children of the third world to sweat shop labour for as little as 5 bucks an hour (Vietnam) is acceptable in the interests of providing you with a cheap computer?

You disgust me Overlord. You call me Bloodthirsty? Just wait. I am positively moderate compared to some. I refuse to demean myself by talking with you any longer; somebody who proposes institutionalised Racism and exploitation should not be legitimized through debate. I gather this board bans Racists and Fascists. I hope a mod views your posts.

Sabocat

10th June 2006, 18:43

He was responsible for labour reforms as well which led to increased pay and reduced working hours.

Ford was hysterically anti-union, anti-communist, and pro-fascist. The only gains made for the workers pay and hours were made by the union, not Henry J. To credit Ford with reduced working hours and better pay is insanity.

Here's a nice synopsis of your hero: Scumbag (http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/business/henry-ford/)

Steal? Royalties for African minerals are like 40%, so they're paying us to dig them out of the ground and give them money.

Wow...a whole 40%. So they get that and the horrific scarring of the land from strip mining and the ensuing pollution that inevitably comes from the industry extracting the resource. What a bargain.

And what's wrong with the Western world. Do you want the Africans in tribal areas to remain entrenched in their superstition?

Unlike you, I want them to remain whatever they want to remain.

Tungsten

10th June 2006, 23:39

Disgustapated

I didn't realize that Ford was working for the betterment of society. Is that what he was doing as he was having company thugs throw union leaders from the roofs of buildings?
That sounds like a good way of bettering society, but he shouldn't have lowered himself to your level.
bobkindles

Prior to 1990, Iraq ranked 50/130 Countries on the UN development Index
It now ranks at a miserable 123 thanks to the wanton destruction and exploitaiton of the occupying imperialist armies.
Now read your history books and tell us what happend in Iraq, or rather what Iraq did in 1990.

First of all, you are a hypocrite: Are you saying you would prefer America to still be run by the British? If Imperialism is so great, then you should answer yes. But As Ghandi said, debating the pros and cons of imperialism is like debating the pros and cons of rape! If thats not clear enough: Imperialism is an utter abomination, and all those who support it (I.e. The Us Governemnt and military) are guilty of murder. Imperialism in Africa resulted in the total disruption of the economic and political development of these countries. Western Powers established a slave-Master economic system - the colonies served no purpose except to provide raw materials. The prime of the african labour force were removed form their home continent for use on the american continent in slave labour! Do you support Slave Labour? Furthermore, the native population were denied educations in economy and administration. This meant that when de-colonization occurred, these countries rapidly descended into chaos, as they had no experience or expertise to run themselves!

^Let's stop this hysterical, narrow-minded BS and take a look at imperialism from the viewpoint of individual collonists. You won't do this, so I'll do it for you:

Let's look at the British empire's operations in Africa. In what way and to what extent was the average African any worse off when his tribal leader was replaced by the King of England? What additional injustices were done to them when they were slaves to the British to when they were slaves to their native leaders? If the British eventually outlawed that slavery and prevented rival tribes from killing each other, whereas non-colonial countries still maintained it, did they bring more justice to Africa or less?

Just as Europe was better off for, and benefitted greatly from the Roman empire, the world was better off, in general, for the British empire too. What America is doing isn't imperialism, it's just stupidity - half-arsed half-measure, a PR stunt. If there was a terrorist threat to be eliminated, it should have been found and bombed out of existence. It's not America's duty to begin enacting regime changes, nor is it in it's interest.

And Now Western leaders enjoy critcizing leaders such as Robert Mugabe that speak out against the injustice of imperialism
And we can all see how sucessful his regime is!

The late 20th Century has seen huge 'advances' in 'free' trade and immigration. Tell me: Why is it that global inequality has increased?
Because inequality is the result of freedom.

And do you think that condemning the Children of the third world to sweat shop labour for as little as 5 bucks an hour (Vietnam) is acceptable in the interests of providing you with a cheap computer?
What are their choices otherwise?

Sabocat

11th June 2006, 01:24

That sounds like a good way of bettering society, but he shouldn't have lowered himself to your level.

You're in good company. Every fascist scumbag in history has felt similarly.

Killing organized labor/workers is a good way of bettering society is it? You truly are vile trash, but at least you're open and honest in your disdain for the working class. I would however enjoy seeing your brutal honesty at a strike; face to face with actual workers and telling them that killing them would be for the betterment of society. But of course, that will never happen will it?

theraven

11th June 2006, 03:57

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 10:25 PM

That sounds like a good way of bettering society, but he shouldn't have lowered himself to your level.

You're in good company. Every fascist scumbag in history has felt similarly.

Killing organized labor/workers is a good way of bettering society is it? You truly are vile trash, but at least you're open and honest in your disdain for the working class. I would however enjoy seeing your brutal honesty at a strike; face to face with actual workers and telling them that killing them would be for the betterment of society. But of course, that will never happen will it?
i have more to say on this topic..nbut this begged imediate rsponse

he was clealry saracastic....

theraven

11th June 2006, 04:04

Wow...a whole 40%. So they get that and the horrific scarring of the land from strip mining and the ensuing pollution that inevitably comes from the industry extracting the resource. What a bargain.

yes indeed-thats 100% more then they woudl get form it otherwise. the mining requires a lot of sceitnifc and engienreeing expertise as well as equitment. this exsits almost solely in first world firms that do just that. thus the peopel of the country are well compensated for doing nothing but living in the land while the companies do all the work.

Unlike you, I want them to remain whatever they want to remain.

and if they don't know anything about anywhere else how can you choose soemthing? thats like having peole born on an island and only taught one religion, then when peole ask why they don't convert you say "no one has ever tried"

Tungsten

11th June 2006, 10:57

Disgustapated

Killing organized labor/workers is a good way of bettering society is it? You truly are vile trash, but at least you're open and honest in your disdain for the working class.
Don't insult my intelligence. Most union bosses are the biggest pieces of trash I've ever met. They wouldn't think twice about stabbing anyone in the back- including workers. I never advocated killing anyone; that would be lowering myself to your level.
Speaking of which, you missed the other part:

but he shouldn't have lowered himself to your level.
Where can you find in my posts, threats of violence, talks of celebrity deathmatches, impaling people on bayonets etc? You can't. On the other hand, your friends here have done it too many times to list; I guess you're the one in "good company".

overlord

11th June 2006, 12:33

Bobkindles is insane :wacko: Part 1.

I would love to hear why you have a level of support for Imperialism, overlord. Feel free to cite the success of countries that were subjected to colonialism by the western powers....I gather the Sudan is Doing spectacuarly well at the moment, as is Rwanda! Not to mention Nigeria and Rwanda!

And are those countries still run by imperialists?

I hope that you are not serious about aprovving of imperialist dominaiton of Africa and Asia. Not only is that indicative of a preference towards Racism and Social Darwinism (both of which disgrace politics and science respectively) but you also have no evidence to back up claims that Imperialism is 'good'.

As for racism, I think the imperialists realised by the end of their tenure they were not genetically superior. As for Social Darwinism, what's wrong with that? Let the unfit kill commit suicide if that is their perogative.

Somethingn wrong with imperialism? What's wrong with it? You made the allegation you should be able to back it up? Oh I see, trade, yeah, thats bad man. What else is wrong? Well, they laid railroads everywhere, again, bad. What else? ummmm, well, I dunno... you tell me.

"Imperialism is Capitalism in that stage of development in which the domination of monopoly and finance capital has taken shape; in which the export of Capital has acquired profound importance, in which the division of the world by international trusts has begun, and in which partition of the earth by the greatest Capitalist countries has occurrred" Lenin - Imperialism; the Highest Stage of Capitalism.

You sound like what Lenin would call a useful idiot. Lenin consciously starved millions in the Ukraine. Don't quote that retard. It makes you look even more stupid than you are already.

Actually, I have strong inclinations towards the Juche idea of Kim Il Sung, which upholds national independance above all else.

Yeah, some great ideas come out of that crackpot. :rolleyes: Do you know he was the first man to the moon and discovered all the laws of physics? :rolleyes: I have proven you to be mad. No one here supports that bastard, the communists here are way more libertarian than you.

I do not hold international revolution to be a necessity, and instead would prefer a close band of Socialist States. I would not call this Pro-nationalism. Being anti-imperialist does not make me a jingoist. As a Socialist, I am oppossed to the exploitaiton of workers by Capitalists. I view Imperialism as the ascension of Capitalism to an international level; workers are produced by Colonies and LEDCs and Capitalists with advanced nations. I want to see that Class struggle resolved in the same way as internal class struggle - an uprising of the oppressed!

You would enslave the population to save them from 'opression'? :rolleyes:

The late 20th Century has seen huge 'advances' in 'free' trade and immigration. Tell me: Why is it that global inequality has increased? And do you think that condemning the Children of the third world to sweat shop labour for as little as 5 bucks an hour (Vietnam) is acceptable in the interests of providing you with a cheap computer?

Its five cents an hour you retard. Its what they deserve for supporting a bullshit government tying everyone up in literally red tape. Would you set up a factory in Vietnam? Go on, why don't you? The people obviously don't want more or they would vote in a republic by force, but aren't allowed of course. :rolleyes:

How can a country be 'more' Marxist than another when they both operate under Capitalism?! Explain this absurd statement. Do you have the faintest understanding of Marxism?!

You wouldn't call Britian Marxist but libertarians do all the time. Its called the labour party and it stinks to high hell.

Prior to 1990, Iraq ranked 50/130 Countries on the UN development Index
It now ranks at a miserable 123 thanks to the wanton destruction and exploitaiton of the occupying imperialist armies. How is that for prosperity under the Republican administration?

I meant republic not GOP. Not like every country has the same parties.

The late 20th Century has seen huge 'advances' in 'free' trade and immigration. Tell me: Why is it that global inequality has increased?

Its called free will. You have free will to be lazy or work hard. Of course, your type hates free-will.

And do you think that condemning the Children of the third world to sweat shop labour for as little as 5 bucks an hour (Vietnam) is acceptable in the interests of providing you with a cheap computer?

Those children deserve to work and work hard. What's wrong with child labour? What, children should be mollycoddled by the socialist society? Fooey!

You disgust me Overlord. You call me Bloodthirsty? Just wait. I am positively moderate compared to some. I refuse to demean myself by talking with you any longer; somebody who proposes institutionalised Racism and exploitation should not be legitimized through debate. I gather this board bans Racists and Fascists. I hope a mod views your posts.

So that bayonetting thing was moderate? You are a true communist then? Like Pol Pot? I hope you get enslaved and die by your own bayonett!

BobKKKindle$

11th June 2006, 13:00

Somethingn wrong with imperialism? What's wrong with it?

Do you think that most, if not all, African States would be the Hellholes today if it were not for Western Imperialism? Yes, they may have constructed railways so as better to rape these countries of their natural resources. But this is hardly a 'benefit' when one acknowledges the complete crippling of the political and economic development of the countries in question. And if you think that these countries would be better under Imperialism, please answer the following: Iraq was a british Mandate for a decade or so after the TOV. It underwent modest economic development during the 20th century. Do you mean to tell me that now it is back under the domination of a foreign power, it is 'flourishing'? Do you ever back-up your vauge assertions with evidence? And How exactly does a Minarchist support authoritarianism?! Thats an insult to any anarchist, whether Capitalist or Communist.

libertarians do all the time. Its called the labour party and it stinks to high hell

Suggesting that the Labour party is anywhere near the left is an insult to even the most casual social democrat. And I could not care less about the opinions of libertarians. Capitlaist Libertarianism is a contradiction in terms. Calling Britain marxist is as absurd as calling Kim Il Sung the shining star of humanity. And For the record, nowhere in the Juche idea does it entail the necessity of a personality cult. Have you ever read the premise on the Juche idea?! I think not. And I sincerely doubt that all my fellow comrades will suddenly hate me because of a fondness of Juche. It is actually listed under the Dictionary, so it is recognized as a sect of Rev Leftism.

What, children should be mollycoddled by the socialist society

Every Child deserves to have an education of the highest standard and spend their childhood enjoying life and developing as they choose. This could be a communal upbringing, or it could be in a nuclear family. Heck, almost all Political sects would support us on this! A Revisionist Social democrat would swear by this! But then again, what do we know, we are just Socialists..how absurd it is to think that Humans are more important than profits and commodities.

You have free will to be lazy or work hard

Do you mean to tell me that a child working a 14 hour shift and foregoing an education to earn a few dollars in order to supplement his impoverished family is lazy, and a CEO sitting in an office or playing golf, whilst gaining all the benefits of the child's production, is hard-working? Your response would suggest this. Please explain this perspective.

So that bayonetting thing was moderate?

I would kill you quickly. Others might want a little Fun n' Revenge first.

You sound like what Lenin would call a useful idiot. Lenin consciously starved millions in the Ukraine. Don't quote that retard. It makes you look even more stupid than you are already.

I am a person Lenin would call 'Comrade', as are almost all the leftists on this site. I am not saying War Communism did not result in horrendous suffering. But how is this even related to the topic of discussion?! Lenin should be applauded for providing an analysis of Imperialism and Foreign Hegemonic dominaiton: Namely, Capitalism. Hence the title : IMperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism.

You would enslave the population to save them from 'opression'

Oh, so 5 'cents' an Hour is perfectly acceptable, when Nike made profits of $208m last year? I think you are just being utterly absurd to gain attention overlord.

overlord

11th June 2006, 13:27

I knew you couldn't resist the temptation of replying:

Do you think that most, if not all, African States would be the Hellholes today if it were not for Western Imperialism? Yes, they may have constructed railways so as better to rape these countries of their natural resources. But this is hardly a 'benefit' when one acknowledges the complete crippling of the political and economic development of the countries in question.

Listen, Africa is poor because its a desert, pure and simple. Zimbabwe was a food exporter beleive it or not before Mugabe assumed control. Poor countries need to tie themselves to the economies of rich agriculturally powerful countries if they are to survive. Nations can only be sustainably successful once they reach a certain economic size after all, otherwise they're just territories. And as a capitalist I am for any African emigrating to a rich country, thus solving the poverty problem.

And if you think that these countries would be better under Imperialism, please answer the following: Iraq was a british Mandate for a decade or so after the TOV. It underwent modest economic development during the 20th century. Do you mean to tell me that now it is back under the domination of a foreign power, it is 'flourishing'? Do you ever back-up your vauge assertions with evidence?

Well, there is a war going on :rolleyes:

And How exactly does a Minarchist support authoritarianism?! Thats an insult to any anarchist, whether Capitalist or Communist.

Well minarchy does mean there is some authority and who said I was authoritarian? I am a globalist. The Empre will be business. The U.S. represents business. When the US fails, business will remain.

Suggesting that the Labour party is anywhere near the left is an insult to even the most casual social democrat.

Uh, ooookay. :huh:

And I could not care less about the opinions of libertarians. Capitlaist Libertarianism is a contradiction in terms. Calling Britain marxist is as absurd as calling Kim Il Sung the shining star of humanity.

To you, not to libertarians. You Stalinists are a tiny minority however. And I realise I am not debating a rational person here.

And For the record, nowhere in the Juche idea does it entail the necessity of a personality cult. Have you ever read the premise on the Juche idea?! I think not. And I sincerely doubt that all my fellow comrades will suddenly hate me because of a fondness of Juche. It is actually listed under the Dictionary, so it is recognized as a sect of Rev Leftism.

Of course i've read it. Its bullshit about self reliance. Fat lot of good that's done them! What's to admire? Famine?

Every Child deserves to have an education of the highest standard and spend their childhood enjoying life and developing as they choose. This could be a communal upbringing, or it could be in a nuclear family. Heck, almost all Political sects would support us on this!

Plenty of freedom except freedom to work I suppose. Why do you peopla hate hard work?

A Revisionist Social democrat would swear by this! But then again, what do we know, we are just Socialists..how absurd it is to think that Humans are more important than profits and commodities.

Yeah, humans are SOOOOO important to a socialist governement. Each 20th century socialism seems to like killing them. Oh well.

Do you mean to tell me that a child working a 14 hour shift and foregoing an education to earn a few dollars in order to supplement his impoverished family is lazy, and a CEO sitting in an office or playing golf, whilst gaining all the benefits of the child's production, is hard-working? Your response would suggest this. Please explain this perspective.

Well, generally the poor should work to catch up with the rich if they think they're so far behind. How do you think the rich got to where they are? Of course they could sit on their ass under your system. :rolleyes:

I would kill you quickly. Others might want a little Fun n' Revenge first.

Shows how primitive the 'progressive' socialist mind is. As a capitalist I would NOT kill you. My system is instantly superior. Yours is sick and backward.

Lenin should be applauded for providing an analysis of Imperialism and Foreign Hegemonic dominaiton: Namely, Capitalism

Yeah and he only killed a few million Ukrainians in the early 20s. Great guy. :rolleyes:

Oh, so 5 'cents' an Hour is perfectly acceptable, when Nike made profits of $208m last year? I think you are just being utterly absurd to gain attention overlord.

The Vietnamese accept it themselves by accepting a government which hates capitalism. Oh, and I wonder how much they'd be getting without the help of benefactors such as Nike? :rolleyes:

redstar2000

11th June 2006, 15:38

Originally posted by overlord
Capitalism is a moral system as well as an economic one. Let's just let business rule and be happy! :)

I predict a suck-cessful career for you in the field of public relations. Anyone who could write that capitalism is a "moral system" without vomiting on their keyboard definitely has the stomach to do PR work for the ruling class.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

overlord

11th June 2006, 15:42

I predict a suck-cessful career for you in the field of public relations. Anyone who could write that capitalism is a "moral system" without vomiting on their keyboard definitely has the stomach to do PR work for the ruling class.

Hahahahaha Why not? Don't you know human rights are impossible without property rights? And that retard Bobkindles can do PR for North Korea!

BobKKKindle$

11th June 2006, 16:13

Don't you know human rights are impossible without property rights

Please explain how you arrived at this conclusion. No, We do not Know 'this'. I think I speak for all of us when I say that Private Ownership of the means of production is far from in accordance with HUman rights and dignity; rather it is theft, for it serves the basis for Capitalism, and Capitalism is not a 'moral' system as you so believe, it is a system of vast injustice and inequality, as you have failed to disprove, and have proven by your advocation of imperialism.

And that retard Bobkindles

What an Insightful Argument. Thank you for analysing my points in a clear fashion and providing a clear and well thought out perspective. <_<

Why do you peopla hate hard work

Because they perform it within the Capitalist system - Hard Work for someone else; namely the owner of the MoP, Hard work they are forced into;not of their own choosing, Hard Work for a wage far less than the value of the commodity produced. Simple.

The U.S. represents business. When the US fails, business will remain.

Logical and precise as always

The Vietnamese accept it themselves by accepting a government which hates capitalism

Any Government that 'hates; Capitalism would not force such treatment upon their people. Since the Doi Moi Reforms, Vietnam has become a Market economy, and the effects in terms of wealth distribution, Self-Reliance, and Quality of Living.

PR for North Korea!

Talking of North Korea, the following quotes is from 'On the Juche Idea' by Kim Il sung and Kim Jong Il: "Developed Technology provides the oppurtunity to free tge working masses from backbreaking Labour, narrow down the differences between physical and mental labour..." Now, Juche does not appeal to everyone, but I think that every Leftist on this site will agree with the above part of the Juche idea. So I am by no means some hard-line Stalinist.

Africa is not poor because it is a 'desert' Countries such as Zaire and Nigeria have some of the richest minerla deposits in the world. Your comment shows utter ignoranceAfrica is poor because of

the Us and other imperialists' policy of aggression and plunder in defence of their Sovereignty and natural resources, and in order to put an end to the the old economic system by which a few Capitalist powers have exploited at will the majority of the countries and people of the world"

Tungsten

11th June 2006, 20:16

bobkindles

Do you think that most, if not all, African States would be the Hellholes today if it were not for Western Imperialism?
More than likely, yes.

Every Child deserves to have an education of the highest standard and spend their childhood enjoying life and developing as they choose. This could be a communal upbringing, or it could be in a nuclear family. Heck, almost all Political sects would support us on this! A Revisionist Social democrat would swear by this! But then again, what do we know, we are just Socialists..how absurd it is to think that Humans are more important than profits and commodities.
My property is more important to me than someone else's education. If we get to the situation where we're all allowed to spend each other's money, there will be chaos.

Lenin should be applauded for providing an analysis of Imperialism and Foreign Hegemonic dominaiton: Namely, Capitalism. Hence the title : IMperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism.
This reminds me of Galloway's comment a few weeks ago about the millions who died in China's cultural revolution. It was justified because it was good for chiropody.

Please explain how you arrived at this conclusion.
It's not too difficult to understand: I can't legally touch anything you have without your permission. If I could, I'd be able to exploit/enslave you indirectly you by taking the propery you have worked to purchase.

No, We do not Know 'this'. I think I speak for all of us when I say that Private Ownership of the means of production is far from in accordance with HUman rights and dignity; rather it is theft,
Fill in the blank: If not allowing someone to take your property is theft, then allowing them to take it is.............?

Because they perform it within the Capitalist system - Hard Work for someone else; namely the owner of the MoP,
Hard work is hard work. Given the choice, no one would do it. It doesn't matter who the work is "for".

Kuro Morfos

12th June 2006, 02:24

The US might as well invade. The more it wastes all its recourses on war, the closer it'll come to its end. The vast hulk of Amerikkkans believe that Amerika is perfect and has the right to do what ever it wants. Amerika is a right-wing unified abyss. The right-wing of America has no opposition, other than a bunch of personally interested union sheep that vote Democrat but otherwise have no real political opinion about anything else. There is no left in America, and those who are generally have no social life. I hope America gets destroyed, its the biggest threat to the world. I hate and despise having to live in this bastion of conservatism. I'm perhapse the only college student in SoCal who feels this way, but then again, its because I think for myself, that everybody hates me. Amerikkkans are a contamination to the gene pool as far as I am concerned.

overlord

12th June 2006, 03:49

Amerikkkans are a contamination to the gene pool as far as I am concerned.
]

HAHAHAH! closet fascist! I suppose scientists of the future will have to weed out the gene for capitalism?

I hope America gets destroyed, its the biggest threat to the world.

What a shocking thing to say. I hope you're planning on leaving. Without America the Nazis would have crushed your USSR.

BobKKKindle$

12th June 2006, 04:54

It's not too difficult to understand: I can't legally touch anything you have without your permission. If I could, I'd be able to exploit/enslave you indirectly you by taking the propery you have worked to purchase.

First, let me point out that Socialists are oppossed to the private ownership of the means of production, and we do not consider personal propety to fall under that category. But If your assertion is correct, then societies that did not have strong values of Private Ownership, be it institutionalised or latent, would have no values of human rights or dignity. Yet one look at Primitive Communist Societies shows that this is not the case - Everything was owned by everybody, and these societies were the most egalitarian that have ever existed. There were values of Human dignity.

Hard work is hard work. Given the choice, no one would do it. It doesn't matter who the work is "for"

If noone does hard work then a choice is avaliable, then your entire Capitalist argument about Capitalism being a system of oppurtunity falls to bits, because no body would bother to work harder to reach the highest income groups, as you so often tell us is possible. Basically, you are wrong. If People work of their own accord and for themselves, they will work harder. Thats common sense

My property is more important to me than someone else's education.

And that is the difference between us. You do not seem to realize that the wealth that Capitalists 'make themselves' is in fact socially created, through the latent cooperative efforts of many different societial groups. Noone in society is an autnomous free standing object. So it is actually in your interests to have an eduated workforce, because the wealth of the minority Capitalst class rests upon the efforts of Society.

Fill in the blank: If not allowing someone to take your property is theft, then allowing them to take it is.............?

Again, note the distinction between different types of propety. And your Statement is a total perversion and maljudgement of Proudhon's declaration - Propety is Theft. Allowing Workers to sieze the means of production is not 'giving' it is just smart, because that Capitalist might avoid persecution under the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

HAHAHAH! closet fascist

This guy is 'Restricted' You realise. He is part of the oppossing ideology 'camp'

overlord

12th June 2006, 05:10

QUOTE
HAHAHAH! closet fascist

This guy is 'Restricted' You realise. He is part of the oppossing ideology 'camp'

Wow, you can read. Now its time to learn how to think.

Miolnir

19th June 2006, 03:23

PLEASE, let me have the Fun and Revenge first.
There comes a point, when talk is useless and only force will convince anybody, if not convince it will have silenced them forever. You can call me a hardline Marxist-Leninist, with a hint of Stalinism, Bit**es. <_<

theraven

19th June 2006, 06:04

First, let me point out that Socialists are oppossed to the private ownership of the means of production, and we do not consider personal propety to fall under that category. But If your assertion is correct, then societies that did not have strong values of Private Ownership, be it institutionalised or latent, would have no values of human rights or dignity. Yet one look at Primitive Communist Societies shows that this is not the case - Everything was owned by everybody, and these societies were the most egalitarian that have ever existed. There were values of Human dignity.

primtieive hunter gathere culutres are egaltaritn out of nessicity. when you have jsut enough to surivve you can't veryw ell invest any or save any. the only way a commusnti culture would work would be primtive hunter gatherer or maybe substiance farmer sitaution, any other sitaution would likely reseutl in disputes over who gets excess resoucse

This guy is 'Restricted' You realise. He is part of the oppossing ideology 'camp'

so? that doesnt' mean we agree with him

CubaSocialista

19th June 2006, 11:15

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 12:50 AM

Amerikkkans are a contamination to the gene pool as far as I am concerned.
]

HAHAHAH! closet fascist! I suppose scientists of the future will have to weed out the gene for capitalism?

I hope America gets destroyed, its the biggest threat to the world.

What a shocking thing to say. I hope you're planning on leaving. Without America the Nazis would have crushed your USSR.
Firstly, the World War 2 claim is invariably FALSE.

The Russians lost tens of millions in that war, making the bravest sacrifices and some of the most difficult decisions. The USSR is inherently, along with the US to some extent, responsible for the defeat of European fascism.

As well, the claim that a nation of people ought to be destroyed, Kuro Mofos, is harsh, moral absolutivist, and blind. We, the US, are lead by a corporate brothel for a government. Why kill the blinded followers for the sins of the source of that blindness?

As Communists/Socialists, we NEVER hold a PEOPLE responsible for the actions of a capitalist state: that's National Socialism. We can criticize and question the obedience, ignorance, complacency, and general sheeplike mentality of peoples, but never bring down a blind wrath with no discrimination between the criminals that have enslaved a population's mentality and stolen their work, and the unknowing and often idiotic or naive people themselves.

Don't judge ALL of my countrymen, including me, by our sadistic government. It is more or less a xenophobia. I am not ashamed of where I am born and raised.

Tungsten

20th June 2006, 01:22

bobkindles

First, let me point out that Socialists are oppossed to the private ownership of the means of production, and we do not consider personal propety to fall under that category.
The distinction between your definitions of "personal" and "private" are dubious and I don't recognise them.

But If your assertion is correct, then societies that did not have strong values of Private Ownership, be it institutionalised or latent, would have no values of human rights or dignity
That, for most part, is a truism.

Yet one look at Primitive Communist Societies shows that this is not the case - Everything was owned by everybody, and these societies were the most egalitarian that have ever existed. There were values of Human dignity.
I don't beleive the majority of these "paradise lost" stories and if they were so wonderful, why are they not still in existence today.

If noone does hard work then a choice is avaliable, then your entire Capitalist argument about Capitalism being a system of oppurtunity falls to bits,
Do you bother to give anything I write more than a cursory glance?

And that is the difference between us. You do not seem to realize that the wealth that Capitalists 'make themselves' is in fact socially created,
Erm, the term "socially created" is a bit of con. Any product can be traced back to a list of individuals who contributed to it's production and who were credited accordingly. If we look at that list, we'll find that not everyone was on it. Therefore why should every section of society be entitled to it or rewarded for it's production?

Noone in society is an autnomous free standing object. So it is actually in your interests to have an eduated workforce, because the wealth of the minority Capitalst class rests upon the efforts of Society.
What is in my interests will be dictated by me.

Again, note the distinction between different types of propety.
I don't recognise the distinction between private and personal property (which is also private).

Allowing Workers to sieze the means of production is not 'giving' it is just smart, because that Capitalist might avoid persecution under the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.
I don't think giving you anything would be smart. Except a good kicking, perhaps.

Marx_was_right!

23rd June 2006, 02:57

I don't recognise the distinction between private and personal property (which is also private).

Private property falls into two classes, sentimental property of inestimable personal value, and that property, or capital which will be seized come revolution.

I don't think giving you anything would be smart. Except a good kicking, perhaps.
Your factory owning ancestors no doubt had similar methods... :angry:

Marx_was_right!

23rd June 2006, 02:57

Marx_was_right!

23rd June 2006, 02:57

ummProfessional

23rd June 2006, 04:43

The Russians lost tens of millions in that war, making the bravest sacrifices and some of the most difficult decisions. The USSR is inherently, along with the US to some extent, responsible for the defeat of European fascism.

so somehow the Russians were braver than us? how do you explain that? and we didn't make difficult decisions? along with the US to some extent? TO SOME EXTENT!! are you kidding me? we were fighting in 2 fronts!! 2 different enemies! we pretty much won the freaking war!! we beat both the Germans yes with the great Russian help which i don't deny because im not bias at all, and we single handedly beat the Japs in the Pacific Front!! if it wasn't for one another in the Western Front, both the Russians and the US would have been crushed thats the truth, because the Germans were waisting too many resources with the Russians in the east, and when D-Day came if it wasn't because the Russians were pushing from their side, we probably wouldn't of even touched sand that day....so the Germans were eventually fighting many battle fronts, US and English and Canadians from the French Coast and so on, Russians from East Europe, and also in North Africa, and we were also fighting the Japs in the Pacific...

ummProfessional

23rd June 2006, 04:43

ummProfessional

23rd June 2006, 04:43

Axel1917

24th June 2006, 22:42

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 11:40 AM
If Only the UN and its member States would realise that the most dangerous 'rouge state' is not North Korea, or Iran, or Syria, but the United States itself. The Fact that Venezuela has nationalised its oil industries to make sure that profits benefit its own people and simply do not flow into the pockets of American Capitalists does not mean that Chavez is 'evil' or that Venezuela is a Rouge State.

And Talking of Wasting Money - your government spends more on the military than the rest of your government budget combined?! When Kids are going without a decent education in the name of imperialism, Revolution is on the menu.
The US made the UN, and they can break it. It also seems to be more of a holy alliance of capitalist nations, for the most part, to protect Bourgeois interests. Progress is not going to go through the UN, that is for sure.

CubaSocialista

25th June 2006, 02:45

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 01:44 AM

The Russians lost tens of millions in that war, making the bravest sacrifices and some of the most difficult decisions. The USSR is inherently, along with the US to some extent, responsible for the defeat of European fascism.

so somehow the Russians were braver than us? how do you explain that? and we didn't make difficult decisions? along with the US to some extent? TO SOME EXTENT!! are you kidding me? we were fighting in 2 fronts!! 2 different enemies! we pretty much won the freaking war!! we beat both the Germans yes with the great Russian help which i don't deny because im not bias at all, and we single handedly beat the Japs in the Pacific Front!! if it wasn't for one another in the Western Front, both the Russians and the US would have been crushed thats the truth, because the Germans were waisting too many resources with the Russians in the east, and when D-Day came if it wasn't because the Russians were pushing from their side, we probably wouldn't of even touched sand that day....so the Germans were eventually fighting many battle fronts, US and English and Canadians from the French Coast and so on, Russians from East Europe, and also in North Africa, and we were also fighting the Japs in the Pacific...
My grandad and his brother fought in the US army. There is no way I'm going to deny the heroism and sacrifice of the US.

I am simply stating that no one has any right to minimalize the contributions of the USSR to the defeat of fascism.