Secularized or Atheism

[Revulero]

Iam confused when it comes to religion. I am an atheist, but i always thought that all communist were atheist but I guess it isnt true ever since i learned about Christian Communism. So which would be better to all of you a secularized religous policy or an atheist religous policy.





Where I found out about Christian Communism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

[Revulero]

For people that dont know what Secularism is, its what Cuba uses thats why theres still Catholics in Cuba.

Secularism refers to a belief that many human activities and decisions should be free from religious interference or In political terms, secularism is a movement towards the separation of church and state. This is the idea that religion should not interfere with or be integrated into the public affairs of a society.

[Dyst]

Religion is withering away in Western Europe.

Organized religion will not exist in a communist society.

[The Grey Blur]

Socialism would be a secular society - people could practice whatever religion they want so long as they did't have an adverse affect on others

By the time a Socialist revolution is a reality most organised religion will have withered away anyway

Christian Communism is dumb, but I like their symbol :lol:

[Hit The North]

By the time a Socialist revolution is a reality most organised religion will have withered away anyway

I doubt it. It's on the other side of the revolution that religious belief will wither away - because the material reality of people's lives will no longer support such superstitious and alienated belief systems.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 02:59 AM
Iam confused when it comes to religion. I am an atheist, but i always thought that all communist were atheist but I guess it isnt true ever since i learned about Christian Communism. So which would be better to all of you a secularized religous policy or an atheist religous policy.





Where I found out about Christian Communism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism
Christians can't be communists. In order to be a communist you must accept a materialist reality. Theists don't do this therefore they aren't communists.

Atheist policy, NO EXCEPTIONS.

[Jadan ja]

Christian Communism is dumb, but I like their symbol

What is their symbol?

[Revulero]

Their symbol is a hammer and a sickle but the hammer is replaced with a cross.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 02:41 PM
Christians can't be communists. In order to be a communist you must accept a materialist reality. Theists don't do this therefore they aren't communists.

Atheist policy, NO EXCEPTIONS.
Thanks for laying that out Josef

[Pow R. Toc H.]

For A christian to be communist he would have to throw away the belief that he is different than the atheist, that despite their beliefs they are on the same level which will never happen. becuase no christian could ever except the fact that he would be on the same level as a non-believer.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by The Crying [email protected] 20 2006, 06:37 PM
For A christian to be communist he would have to throw away the belief that he is different than the atheist, that despite their beliefs they are on the same level which will never happen. becuase no christian could ever except the fact that he would be on the same level as a non-believer.
I know loads that do that.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Atheism is essential to communism. Secularism already failed in the United States, which is capitalist. I hardly see it working in a more advanced society.

[Hit The North]

Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 20 2006, 07:09 PM
Atheism is essential to communism.
Is it? Why?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Citizen Zero+May 20 2006, 03:15 PM--> (Citizen Zero @ May 20 2006, 03:15 PM)
Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 20 2006, 07:09 PM
Atheism is essential to communism.
Is it? Why? [/b]
Read my post above. Communists except material reality.

[Hit The North]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 03:41 PM
Christians can't be communists. In order to be a communist you must accept a materialist reality. Theists don't do this therefore they aren't communists.

Isn't it possible for religious believers to also believe in a 'materialist reality'? After all, many christians don't have a problem adjusting to the theory of evolution.

I'll concede that any religious advocate who did embrace historical materialism would find it difficult to find a role for their God in human affairs. On the other hand there are plenty of religious positions which reject the concept of an interventionist creator.

[MysticArcher]

Is it? Why?

Well, other than the emphasis on materialism that is essential to communism, organized religion places a high value on obediance to authority.

A value anti-thetical to communism.

as the saying goes "a boss in heaven means a boss on earth"


For A christian to be communist he would have to throw away the belief that he is different than the atheist, that despite their beliefs they are on the same level which will never happen. becuase no christian could ever except the fact that he would be on the same level as a non-believer.

In addition Chirstians would object to the idea of revolution itself; the capiltalists are their "brothers in christ" or whatever the term is and thus a consistent christian can't oppose them

[OneBrickOneVoice]

You can't force people to not believe in something because then you become fascist, and you can't force them to be quite because that to would be fascist. No, religion cannot be banned in a communist society, it just can't have any role in political desicions.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Isn't it possible for religious believers to also believe in a 'materialist reality'?

No, unless they don't actually take their religion seriously. Theists accept their god over material reality.


many christians don't have a problem adjusting to the theory of evolution.

Many christians aren't really christians, they just attend church occasionaly.


On the other hand there are plenty of religious positions which reject the concept of an interventionist creator.

Does that make them any less repressive? Absolutely not. There is no "lets find one..." they are all BULLSHIT and scams. Mysticism IS NOT REAL.


You can't force people to not believe in something because then you become fascist

Where are we forcing people to believe in something? Are your referring to my statement that theists cant be communists? You know why BECAUSE THEY DON'T MEET THE DEFFINITION. We aren't forcing shit on anyone. Fascism is also not described by "forcing people to believe in something" theres a wee bit more to it than that ;)


and you can't force them to be quite because that to would be fascist.

No it's not. It's supression in our class interests, it's no different then keeping captialists from having free speech after a revolution. Religion IS REACTIONARY, if left untouched it will be an organizing base for the downfall of revolutionary society.


No, religion cannot be banned in a communist society, it just can't have any role in political desicions.

Religion will not be "banned" per say. There will not be any religious buildings, people can keep that shit in their homes. There will also be no more preachers nor will parents be taking their kids to any kind of religious meetings, thats child abuse.

[EwokUtopia]

One would be wise to recognize the difference between religion and spirituality; while the former leads to wanton wars and the blaze of hellfire, the latter is an essential part of human existance, no matter how free or otherwise the society people live in is. What turns spirituality into religion? Theology. Theology is the bane of whatever higher existance people have named God, or the Gods, or Allah, or Brahma, or G-d, or whatever. Theology turns the truth of a higher existance of which we are all a part (my personal spirituality is something of esoteric pantheism with a Sufi twist) into some superhero who will save you, so long as you pray and dont break his laws, which of course is untrue. Is there a God? Yes, and No. Yes, there is a higher existance that transcends matter, time, and what we call reality and existance, but there is no omnipotent being who plays around with the world and its people like a game of Age of Empires or some such foolishness. Atheism, in my opinion, can become as bad as a religion, if it is enforced. If people want to be atheists and deny the existance of some higher reality, then it is well for them, and i applaud their freedom to do so, but unfortunately, in certain states, Albania being the foremost example in my mind, Atheism has become the centrepeice of persecution of non-atheists, and to be frank, i see little difference between this and Christians doing the same to Atheists. When institutionalized, Atheism may become as dangerous a religion as any, therefore I vigourously oppose the institutionalization and especially the enforcement of any spiritual beliefs, or lack thereof. Remember that Christianity used to be a good thing until Roman Imperialists took a hold of it and established Jesus Christ Inc. which now has several thousand different branches and 2 billion people in its sway. There are still some good sects of Christianity, ones that I would not label so much as a religion than as a community of spiritually like-minded individuals (there is a profound difference between the two), unfortunately, these Christians are few and far between. The same can be said of any of the worlds religions (save the few blatant corporate schemes like scientology) , what is religion but the corruption of good spirituality to droning dogma? The bane of the religious masses is not the belief in a God, it is the belief in a superhero who will save them from the abominable supervillain Satan, so long as they do what God says, according to some patriarchal 80 year old virgins.

That said, it is a form of fascism enforcing any religious beliefs or lack thereof. If I was suddenly told to give up my beliefs for another mans (which I have been, but only by Catholics who were concerned with my soul, so it made me laugh more than anything else) I would resist. I am not an Atheist, I acknowledge a higher existance to which I and all things are a part. I dont like to say God, or even Allah, or any word for it, because it is simply beyond these semiotic grunts we make and call language. This existance comprises of everything, and to that effect, everything is related, you harm another person or thing and you harm yourself. This spiritual belief has made me more in touch with leftism and anti-clericism (priests are little more than church sponcered propagandists who target the young) than I had been before. Jalaluddin Rumi, who was a 12th century Persian Sufi Poet said of existance:

I died as a mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was Man.
Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as Man, to soar
With angels blest; but even from angelhood
I must pass on: all except God doth perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel-soul,
I shall become what no mind e'er conceived.
Oh, let me not exist! for Non-existence
Proclaims in organ tones, To Him we shall return.

Of course anyone with half a wit realizes the metaphor in angelhood as being a surreal state of transition between life and death and the word God as being a syllable to describe what all the annals wrote in human history could never explain...NOT the superhero God as per mainstream religion. What is death? pretty much the same as before birth, as I am sure there was existance before me that manifested me, but I forget that state, of course, I also forget learning to walk and talk, so forgetting it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Non-existance is higher existance. These are my beliefs, and I have been called a pagan, a witch, an atheist, and hell-bound by the religious right, I do not need to be called a reactionary by arrogant dogmatic atheists who confuse denying anything but themselves as a prerequisite to socialist freedom.

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 20 2006, 07:09 PM
Atheism is essential to communism. Secularism already failed in the United States, which is capitalist. I hardly see it working in a more advanced society.
Secularism only failed in the United States because it was never actually tried. Many of the Framers were strident secularists (for all their other faults), the Great Awakening ensured that this aspect of their vision would not end up being the American reaality.

A state in which there is no official religion but in which public policy and political speeches are often very religious or religion-inspired in nature is not secularist.

[Revulero]

Doesnt Cuba use secularism???

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia
One would be wise to recognize the difference between religion and spirituality; while the former leads to wanton wars and the blaze of hellfire, the latter is an essential part of human existance, no matter how free or otherwise the society people live in is.

By definition, an "essential part of human existence" can only mean something that is a characteristic of all humans.

Thus, the very existence of atheists suggests that either atheists are "not really human" or else that the proposition itself is wrong.

It is wrong, of course. :)

Fact is, there's no such thing as "spirituality" because there's no such thing as a "spirit".

Sorry about that.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Hit The North]

Fact is, there's no such thing as "spirituality" because there's no such thing as a "spirit".

Agree, but the term is lazily used to describe that sense of wonder and oneness that human beings imaginatively conjure up in their relationship to nature and each other. That might be hot-wired into the human condition.

[emma_goldman]

Hmm.. I hate religion. I am very much an athiest. But I would strive for the secular policy just as it is not exclusionary. Maybe one day the religous people will wake up and realize the error of their thinking but until then we have to fight for what's most important now, namely worker's rights, socialism, labor, et al.

No war but the class war! :)