Calling all British Trotskyists

[Angry Young Man]

I think, in answer to Lenin's question is: play the democracy card until ready for revolution.
If a group of Trotskyists all stand as independent MP's, then they can, after gaining popularity, unite, and then ready the proletariat for revolution.
If we just pursue violent means, then the media wil present an even worse image, whereas if we stand in elections, then people will see that we are a valid alternative to Labour, the Tories, etc... AND NOT FASCISTS. I remember in the news, in council elections, working class voters were leaving labour to vote B.N.P. I couln't help but ask WHY they would vote for such a party, so I acknowledge this as the time for action in Britain.

[Nachie]

Did you just get out of bed this morning and reaaaaaaaally feel like voting or something?

[Sabocat]

If a group of Trotskyists all stand as independent MP's, then they can, after gaining popularity, unite, and then ready the proletariat for revolution.

:lol:

I'm not in the UK but if I were, I think I'd have to take a pass on this suggestion.

[Red Polak]

That could work.....


You do realise that many of the *independents* standing would soon be "exposed" as being Trots by the media and would therefore stand no chance at election.

Standing as an independent is exceedingly hard I'm told, and people don't tend to trust you as they do the larger parties.



I think a better idea would be to build a decent party (no not RESPECT) and go from there.

[Fistful of Steel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 03:27 PM
if we stand in elections, then people will see that we are a valid alternative to Labour, the Tories, etc... AND NOT FASCISTS.
The Nazis were elected in. And Mussolini was legitimately chosen by the King of Italy to rule. But that is what the point is not, you can't just hope to get elected in and then subjugate any who oppose your plans. Revolution will only occur when people genuinely want it, and the "democratic" elections of modern capitalist society aren't a useful tool for garnering support.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Reformism is a waste of time.

[Hit The North]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 06:06 PM
Reformism is a waste of time.
If you're sitting pretty at the top of society then I guess reformism could be seen as a waste of time.

If you're struggling at the bottom of the heap on poverty wages, in poor housing, with poor health, then any reform which attempts to redistribute resources away from the rich seems like a pretty good idea.

Reformism isn't the solution but that doesn't make it a waste of time. It's usually around limited goals that workers organise and agitate. If revolutionaries ignore these struggles on the basis that they are reformist in essence, how do we hope to connect with the workers?

The idea that individual Trotskyists should capture Parliamentary power by posing as independents is a ridiculous idea. However, a significant and principled Socialist presence during general elections, when many more people are thinking about politics than usual, would be useful. At the moment in the UK, the voice of the working class has more or less disappeared from the political stage.

[drain.you]

Good luck, if an independent trotskyist turns up in my constituency i probably wouldnt vote for him, it would be a wasted vote in a place like mine.
this is a good idea if you believe in plurality of the voting system, try reading some eltist or marxist theory and work out yourself why this idea is a load of crap.

[McLeft]

Well i consider myself a Trotskyst but unfortunately i'm too young to be of any help unless you want me to do voluntering or things like that. lol

[Zeruzo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 06:06 PM
Reformism is a waste of time.
The parliament is just another stage, too speak up for the workers. It's like trade unions, corrupt like fuck but a great stage.

[Just Dave]

Hate to burst your bubble chairmanmick, but virtualy all of the credible left wing parties in the UK are Trotskyist. I understand where you're coming from comrade, but I suggest you get yourself involved with the CNMWP (Campaing for a New Mass Workers Party), or the Socialist Party of England and Wales, or if you're in Scotland, the SSP.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Zeruzo+May 21 2006, 06:45 AM--> (Zeruzo @ May 21 2006, 06:45 AM)
[email protected] 19 2006, 06:06 PM
Reformism is a waste of time.
The parliament is just another stage, too speak up for the workers. It's like trade unions, corrupt like fuck but a great stage. [/b]
No it's not. It's not a stage in anything, it's been tried for the past 150 years and hasn't gotten us shit!

Workers are not spoken up for in a capitalist parliament, it's used to supress them not advance their rights.

[violencia.Proletariat]

If you're sitting pretty at the top of society then I guess reformism could be seen as a waste of time.

Actually it's the other way around. If you are at the top of society reformism makes sense since you have the ability (economic and social ability) to get people elected. It's in the ruling class's interest to elect their leaders to congress/parliament because it's used to supress the working class.


If you're struggling at the bottom of the heap on poverty wages, in poor housing, with poor health, then any reform which attempts to redistribute resources away from the rich seems like a pretty good idea.

Where are these reforms? We've been waiting 150 years. What lessons have we learned? You don't ask for shit, YOU TAKE IT! If immediate reforms are absolutely necessary we must take it to the streets like the recent anti-cpe events in France, no execptions! We cannot start using their institutions to make things better for us, it's not possible.


Reformism isn't the solution but that doesn't make it a waste of time.

:lol: Please re-read this statement. How is it not a waste of time if it isn't the solution? Why waste time taking a backwards route instead of putting full energy towards the solution, that makes no sense!


It's usually around limited goals that workers organise and agitate. If revolutionaries ignore these struggles on the basis that they are reformist in essence, how do we hope to connect with the workers?

Limited goals aren't necessarily reformist (if it's absolutely necessary then it's just that, we aren't trying to use this method to change everything). BUT WE MUST NOT USE REFORMIST CHANNELS!


At the moment in the UK, the voice of the working class has more or less disappeared from the political stage

Was it ever there? The voice of the working people will always be "in the street." Thats where we have the power and they do not.

[Global_Justice]

i'm pretty sure you can't run for something then change when you get elected. obviously politicians do to an extent. but i mean you can't run as independant in say a council election and then join a party after being elected. the other parties would demand another election.

[RebelDog]

If you could win another £1 an hour for the workers, better pensions, better healthcare is reformism a waste of time. The Labour Party that set up the visionary UK NHS was reformist. Should we have turned down the offer of free quality healthcare because its reformist? I am dying to see the revolution as much as anyone else on this board. But I remain intent on being involved in 'bourgeois' elections, not because I like the farce, but because at the moment it is a good way of keeping our opinion in and keeping class-conciousness alive. I not happy about it.

[Poum_1936]

Now, voting and reformisim are not total wastes of time. However if your ultimate goal is through reformism, then you most likely are wasting your time. Voting/reformism can be used as a means (connecting to and hooking up with the working class) to and end (revolution, however you see fit the revoltion to take place). These can be used as a good source of agitation.


but I suggest you get yourself involved with the CNMWP (Campaing for a New Mass Workers Party

Though, I have not heard about the CNMWP in Britian, it sounds like another attempt to create a "mass workers party" out of thin air. And as far as I know, alot of these alternative parties are declining, along with the SSP. Britian already has a labor party. Why not just work and agitate within the Labour Party, a party which already has working people in it. Should we abandon the unions as well?, with the labor aristocracy controlling things.

I could also rummage through the "Book of Lenin" to find the scripture necessary to back my points, at a more convienent time for me, Im only able to get this short little post off.

[h&s]

Originally posted by violencia.Proletariat+--> (violencia.Proletariat)Where are these reforms? We've been waiting 150 years. [/b]
What fucking planet do you live on?
Compare Victorian Britain to the Britain of today. Take your pick - reformism or no reformism?


How is it not a waste of time if it isn't the solution? Why waste time taking a backwards route instead of putting full energy towards the solution, that makes no sense!
Reformism, in a limited sense- not as the solution, is not a waste quite simply because some of us just don't like dying.
If we were to completely give up on the 'democratic' system we would end up with no public healthcare, housing, welfare, etc. Things are bad enough as they are, going backwards. We want to at least stop that.

You can go on about taking to the streets and completely abandoning borgeios channels, but that just doesn't wash with anyone.

---


Poum_1936
Why not just work and agitate within the Labour Party, a party which already has working people in it.
Its labour in name only. There are very few working people in it these days, and this number is rapidly diminshing.


Should we abandon the unions as well?, with the labor aristocracy controlling things.

Yeah, those unions are recoverable (in the UK at least), the Labour Party isn't.

[Louis Pio]

Small groups on the fringes normally don't get any attention, which in my experience is especially the case in Britain. Millitant did get 2 MP's voted in as Labour back in the 80'ies but later threw it away in an open party adventure. But their succes was first and foremost because they were a rather large tendencie with roots in the unions and workplaces. The question is what the parliament should be used for, as a platform for for revolutionary politics it can be usefull, especially since you can get the politics out to a wide audience. But what revolutionaries in parliament need to keep in mind is that reforms in capitalism will only last for a limited time, especially in the present period. In all of Europe reforms are not on the agenda, only cutbacks from the rightwing. France is a good example but also Denmark (were I'm from...) Check this article on the situation in Denmark http://www.marxist.com/denmark-demonstrati...nment230506.htm (http://www.marxist.com/denmark-demonstrations-reforms-government230506.htm)

Sorry for any incoherencies in my post, it's a long time since I discussed in english :)