US marines kill Iraqi civilians "in cold blood": l

[TC]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-05/...ent_4570400.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-05/19/content_4570400.htm)

" BEIJING, May 19 (Xinhuanet)-- Former U.S. colonel John Murtha acknowledged in his Pentagon report Wednesday on the Haditha incident in Iraq that the U.S. Marines "killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

"A video provided by Hamourabi Human rights group shows covered bodies, which Hamourabi says, are of a family of 15 shot dead in their home in Haditha, in western Anbar province, Iraq March 23, 2006. A video of civilians who may have been killed by U.S. Marines in an Iraqi town in November showed residents describing a rampage by U.S. Soldiers that left a trail of bullet-riddled bodies and destruction."

"Iraqis in the town of Haditha have all along stressed "the U.S. Marines deliberately killed 15 unarmed Iraqi civilians, including seven women and three children."

One young girl among them said the troopers killed six members of her family, including her parents. "The Americans came into the room where my father was praying," she said, "and shot him."


"So it's a very serious incident. It shows the tremendous pressure these guys are under every day when they're out in combat and the stress and consequences," he noted, stressing "nothing indicated the Iraqis killed in the incident were at fault."

"One man was killed with an IED," he made it clear, referring to a marine killed by the bomb. "After that, they actually went into the houses and killed women and children."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


For every atrocity by imperialist troops in Iraq that makes the news (this surfaced only because one of the survivors filmed it) you can be sure that there are dozens that no one in the West hears about. No sympathy for US troops is exusable, they are all mass murderers or accomplice mass murderers.

[LoneRed]

all the more reason there needs to be a workers militia to defend against such senseless attacks

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 06:21 AM
all the more reason there needs to be a workers militia to defend against such senseless attacks
i don't know what you mean by 'workers militia' but obviously the Republican Guard, Fedayeen, Iraqi army remnants, Anbar Revolutionaries, Iraqi Communist Party Cadre and Central Command, Muhommad's Army, al-Awda, et al. are doing their best.

[Body Count]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 06:13 AM
For every atrocity by imperialist troops in Iraq that makes the news (this surfaced only because one of the survivors filmed it) you can be sure that there are dozens that no one in the West hears about. No sympathy for US troops is exusable, they are all mass murderers or accomplice mass murderers.
Agreed.

The US war machine is probably the greatest threat the world has ever seen....I don't care who signed up or why they did it....they are now enemies and they all should get what they deserve.

[YKTMX]

The thread title's a bit "dog bites man", is it not?

[RevMARKSman]

Bring 'em home to a psychiatrist or something! :angry:

[Tekun]

Although I do not share or even accept their fundamentalist religious views, to the rebels who fight the US and its allies in Iraq and in the Middle East...keep fighting the usurpers

1 less soldiers, is one less imperialist

[FinnMacCool]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 05:19 AM


1 less soldiers, is one less imperialist
Not really. The soldiers believe in what they are doing. I obviously do not support them but I do have sympathy for them because many of them are working class people who got too caught up in American Patriotism. The fact that the occupying force shoots down civillians is a direct result of the wrongful actions of the men in suits. Soldiers are an unfortunate scapegoat in this.

[Angry Young Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 06:13 AM
No sympathy for US troops is exusable, they are all mass murderers or accomplice mass murderers.
I just think all capitalist armies are accomplices to mass murder. My brother is in the army (I thought there was no point arguing. I'm not gonna take away his free will the way the queen does). It really seemed like they were controlling every aspect of his life. This is why my bedroom is such a shithole. Only fascists and imperialists have tidy rooms!! It's an authoritarian plot so everyone knows there place!
Anyway, I did suggest to him that ranknfile soldiers should have a union, but they are brainwashed to the extent that they'd stick their heads up cows' arses if requested to by a "superior".

[FinnMacCool]

Originally posted by chairmanmick+May 19 2006, 05:03 PM--> (chairmanmick @ May 19 2006, 05:03 PM)
[email protected] 19 2006, 06:13 AM
No sympathy for US troops is exusable, they are all mass murderers or accomplice mass murderers.
I just think all capitalist armies are accomplices to mass murder. My brother is in the army (I thought there was no point arguing. I'm not gonna take away his free will the way the queen does). It really seemed like they were controlling every aspect of his life. This is why my bedroom is such a shithole. Only fascists and imperialists have tidy rooms!! It's an authoritarian plot so everyone knows there place!
Anyway, I did suggest to him that ranknfile soldiers should have a union, but they are brainwashed to the extent that they'd stick their heads up cows' arses if requested to by a "superior". [/b]
The idea of an Capitalist army having a union is laughable, unfortunately. The army has to have their complete obediance or otherwise they will not commit horrible attrocities on their behalf.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 06:13 AM
For every atrocity by imperialist troops in Iraq that makes the news (this surfaced only because one of the survivors filmed it) you can be sure that there are dozens that no one in the West hears about. No sympathy for US troops is exusable, they are all mass murderers or accomplice mass murderers.
Agreed.

The US war machine is probably the greatest threat the world has ever seen....I don't care who signed up or why they did it....they are now enemies and they all should get what they deserve.

I don't think that's fair. These people mostly signed up because they want to go to college and the military can provide that. Others signed up because they want to protect there family. No one thought they'd be in this shit.

[TC]

Leftists need to stop being soft on imperialism.


Not really. The soldiers believe in what they are doing.

That makes them even more sick. If they were conscripts who didn't believe in what they were doing, i'd still want them to get shot so as to prevent them from killing Iraqis, both civilians and guerrilla soldiers, but given that they actually believe in what they're doing, those sick fucks, i think its totally appropriate to take a certain satisfication in them getting what they deserve.



I obviously do not support them but I do have sympathy for them because many of them are working class people who got too caught up in American Patriotism. The fact that the occupying force shoots down civillians is a direct result of the wrongful actions of the men in suits. Soldiers are an unfortunate scapegoat in this.

Oh Boo hoo hoo. Cry me a fucking river. Scape goats are people who are blamed for things they're not responsible for; US troops are 100% responsible for being cold blooded murders. The troops are the ones to blame, stop being an appologist for imperialism. Men in suits wouldn't be able to kill by orders if men in uniform didn't kill by pulling triggers.


These people mostly signed up because they want to go to college and the military can provide that.

There are millions of more dignified, less socially destructive ways a poor person can put themselves through college, such as dealing drugs, armed robbery, fraud, prostitution, or any other profitable crime that is less grave than the supreme international crime of waging a war of aggression. They could, even, i dont' know, getting a proper job! How about getting a scholarship and financial aid? Millions of other people do it.

In any case anyone who is willing to murder for a college education is still a murderer and someone who doesn't deserve one.

Additionally, its fucking stupid considering that the military *doesn't* provide that, they provide a fraction of the money.

I don't buy the claim that these people somehow had no other options. Even if its true they did it for college money, that just means that they're selfish bastards.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by FinnMacCool+May 19 2006, 09:48 PM--> (FinnMacCool @ May 19 2006, 09:48 PM)
[email protected] 19 2006, 05:19 AM


1 less soldiers, is one less imperialist
Not really. The soldiers believe in what they are doing. I obviously do not support them but I do have sympathy for them because many of them are working class people who got too caught up in American Patriotism. The fact that the occupying force shoots down civillians is a direct result of the wrongful actions of the men in suits. Soldiers are an unfortunate scapegoat in this. [/b]
If you consider them working class (I don't know what it is they produce as "workers" except terror and destruction) than you should follow through that logic and put them in the same category as scabs. They shoot other workers for pay.

[Fistful of Steel]

Vietnam all over again. Soldiers there would get frustrated over the elusive nature of the enemy and the plots to get Americans out of the country, and stage reprisals against civilians. Sadly I'm not really surprised this happened.

[FinnMacCool]

Originally posted by REPOMAN+May 19 2006, 11:48 PM--> (REPOMAN @ May 19 2006, 11:48 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:48 PM

[email protected] 19 2006, 05:19 AM


1 less soldiers, is one less imperialist
Not really. The soldiers believe in what they are doing. I obviously do not support them but I do have sympathy for them because many of them are working class people who got too caught up in American Patriotism. The fact that the occupying force shoots down civillians is a direct result of the wrongful actions of the men in suits. Soldiers are an unfortunate scapegoat in this.
If you consider them working class (I don't know what it is they produce as "workers" except terror and destruction) than you should follow through that logic and put them in the same category as scabs. They shoot other workers for pay. [/b]
Except they don't have that kind of working class mentality. You have to realize that they think they are retaliting for what 9/11 and they don't relaize that they are pawns in a game played by men with suits. this isn't to them about working wages etc.

[Intifada]

Soldiers who fight for imperialists, even if they have been brainwashed, still have no excuse for their actions against the people they have occupied.

They are taking part in acts of agression and oppression against innocent people.

Let us sort our priorities out!

If they are brave enough, they would refuse to fight, just like many brave troops have done thus far.

[FinnMacCool]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 12:27 PM
Soldiers who fight for imperialists, even if they have been brainwashed, still have no excuse for their actions against the people they have occupied.

They are taking part in acts of agression and oppression against innocent people.

Let us sort our priorities out!

If they are brave enough, they would refuse to fight, just like many brave troops have done thus far.
Ron Kovik didn't realize how bad war was until he was shot and paralyzed in a wheelchair. And even then, it took awhile for him to get around.

Once again, its very difficult to blame the soldiers. Its like trying to blame the gun when somebody uses it to murder another person.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by REPOMAN+May 20 2006, 04:48 AM--> (REPOMAN @ May 20 2006, 04:48 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:48 PM

[email protected] 19 2006, 05:19 AM


1 less soldiers, is one less imperialist
Not really. The soldiers believe in what they are doing. I obviously do not support them but I do have sympathy for them because many of them are working class people who got too caught up in American Patriotism. The fact that the occupying force shoots down civillians is a direct result of the wrongful actions of the men in suits. Soldiers are an unfortunate scapegoat in this.
If you consider them working class (I don't know what it is they produce as "workers" except terror and destruction) than you should follow through that logic and put them in the same category as scabs. They shoot other workers for pay. [/b]
I like that definition


Except they don't have that kind of working class mentality. You have to realize that they think they are retaliting for what 9/11 and they don't relaize that they are pawns in a game played by men with suits. this isn't to them about working wages etc.
They don't have class consciousness because they're not working-class - they should be classed along with the police as a tool of the beurgeois

[FinnMacCool]

They don't have class consciousness because they're not working-class - they should be classed along with the police as a tool of the beurgeois

I've always had a problem with that. I mean I don't mind if revolutionaries shoot police or soldiers but I do think its a shame we have to do so. In the Russian Revolution, remember, the police ended up siding with the workers. I think there is always hope for them.

[LoneRed]

"1 less soldiers, is one less imperialist"

I second that. regardless of whether they are just brainwashed they still are killing civilians, regardless of your view this is condemnable. Victory to the Insurgency!

[Wells]

I agree totally with FinnMacCool, these soldiers are falsely class conciouss people of the working class. The war in Iraq can only be blamed on the governments that sent them to war. Both sides have propergated thier ideologies on these soldiers and used them as pawns. The more that die the worse. In time of revolution the army and police should gain concioussness asthey see their families starve, exactly like the Russian revolution. Killing these soldiers will never get to the route of the problem, which is the Capitalist led state that orders these men to give their lives.

[LoneRed]

This is what im talking about in regards to workers militia

Workers Militias (http://www.wpiraq.net/english/2006/WCPIAbroad-1May270406.htm)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

These people mostly signed up because they want to go to college and the military can provide that.

There are millions of more dignified, less socially destructive ways a poor person can put themselves through college, such as dealing drugs, armed robbery, fraud, prostitution, or any other profitable crime that is less grave than the supreme international crime of waging a war of aggression. They could, even, i dont' know, getting a proper job! How about getting a scholarship and financial aid? Millions of other people do it.

In any case anyone who is willing to murder for a college education is still a murderer and someone who doesn't deserve one.

Additionally, its fucking stupid considering that the military *doesn't* provide that, they provide a fraction of the money.

I don't buy the claim that these people somehow had no other options. Even if its true they did it for college money, that just means that they're selfish bastards.

Lol those crimes you listed are illegal so of course doing a legal crime is easier.

Getting a scholarship and finacial aid isn't so easy and people don't get jobs because it's harder since you have no experience.

If you're a veteran I think you get access to the GI bill of rights which provides you with all the dough or almost all of the dough to go to college.

I don't think that they're selfish for wanting to rise above the wage slavery of factory jobs, I think they just want to provide for there family, although it's a damn shame that working class people have risk their life to go to college.

BTW you shouldn't have sympathy for Iraqi guerilla because they are religious extremist equivelant to Fred Phelps here. Others are pro-Saddam and pro-dictatorship.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

This is what im talking about in regards to workers militia

Workers Militias (http://www.wpiraq.net/english/2006/WCPIAbroad-1May270406.htm)

Let's just remeber that even though it sucks that Americans are invading and bringing violence and war to Iraq, Saddam is gone and now these people are able to speak freely like we're doing right now. Even if it is American capitalist democracy it's a small step up from a dictatorship. Hopefully the poverty and violence in Iraq will bring forth a movement centered around the working class and Iraqi people that rejects capitalism and wage slavery and puts forth common ownership and peace.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 01:24 AM

They don't have class consciousness because they're not working-class - they should be classed along with the police as a tool of the beurgeois

I've always had a problem with that. I mean I don't mind if revolutionaries shoot police or soldiers but I do think its a shame we have to do so. In the Russian Revolution, remember, the police ended up siding with the workers. I think there is always hope for them.
in Russia those were conscripts, not professional soldiers though.

[FinnMacCool]

Originally posted by REPOMAN+May 20 2006, 09:31 PM--> (REPOMAN @ May 20 2006, 09:31 PM)
[email protected] 21 2006, 01:24 AM

They don't have class consciousness because they're not working-class - they should be classed along with the police as a tool of the beurgeois

I've always had a problem with that. I mean I don't mind if revolutionaries shoot police or soldiers but I do think its a shame we have to do so. In the Russian Revolution, remember, the police ended up siding with the workers. I think there is always hope for them.
in Russia those were conscripts, not professional soldiers though. [/b]
Isn't it still the same though? If someones going to argue about how soldiers shouldn't be soldiers, then shouldn't conscripts refuse to be conscripts?

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 06:34 PM
Ron Kovik didn't realize how bad war was until he was shot and paralyzed in a wheelchair. And even then, it took awhile for him to get around.
And you would think that soldiers today would learn from that example...


Once again, its very difficult to blame the soldiers. Its like trying to blame the gun when somebody uses it to murder another person.

:lol:

Who/what is to blame when a US soldier kills an innocent Iraqi with a highly advanced technological weapon, the soldier or the weapon?

By your logic, the blame would rightly rest on the sick soldier who killed the innocent human being.

Do not think that I don't feel sorry for those soldiers who are in Iraq and Afghanistan, I do, but I feel much more sorry for the innocent people who fall victim of the occupation that those soldiers are enforcing.

[Wells]

Don't forget that those soldiers are not enforcing the occupation solely on their own free will, they have been sent there by the governments of their respected countries. People are dying; innocent, insurgents or coalition troops because of this illegal war. I think we can all agree on the disgrace of this war.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 12:16 PM
Don't forget that those soldiers are not enforcing the occupation solely on their own free will, they have been sent there by the governments of their respected countries. People are dying; innocent, insurgents or coalition troops because of this illegal war. I think we can all agree on the disgrace of this war.
The US troops and other Coalition troops are not conscripts.

They can still follow the example of many brave Veterans who have refused to serve Bush and Blair.

[Wells]

Yes but they do not have concioussness. They believe they are doing right. You cannot blame them, they are just pawns. Nothing is resolved by killing those soldiers. Its just taking more lives away in a needless war. I dont side with anyone in Iraq, just the innocents. People join the army to protect their country, thats what they believe they are doing.

[backwardsbulldozer]

Ignoring the fact that a lot of people entered the army because they want the financial aid, that many of them did not enter expecting a war, have only followed orders that, if not obeyed, could ruin their lives. that all a lot of them have done is defend themselves, aren't motivated by imperialism and would like to get out of Iraq, even the soldiers that are firmly in favor of this don't deserve to die. They just have a different opinion than you do about this. Some wrongfully think they're doing something noble for the people they help destroy, some think they're getting revenge on "the terrorists", and they may do terrible things but that's just the place they're in. I have nothing against them and am glad I'm not in the situation of the Iraqis, where my life would depend on killing someone who was only carrying out orders. The worst part of any war is the fact that it forces decent people into a situation where their only options are to kill each other or face brutal consequences. The amount of truly evil people is a lot smaller than a lot of you seem to think, and most of them are the ones putting good people into these situations. Don't get me wrong, if I were Iraqi and someone was doing the things the US has done, I would do everything it takes to defend myself and innocent people around me, but in the end, I'd only have disgust if I ended up killing anyone.
About what this started out as, this is a disgusting incident and I agree there must be many, many more that we'll never know about. I hope more make it here.

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 01:58 PM
The worst part of any war is the fact that it forces decent people into a situation where their only options are to kill each other or face brutal consequences.
Correct. This is what I mean, we can't imagine the situation these people have found themselves in.

As for the case of American soldiers going on the rampage, whicj is inexcusable, it is expected. Vietnam is another example where many innocents were killed by soldiers of both sides. If people are put into these situations by the powers that be, you can expect attociaties like these to be carried out.

Stop the war I say!

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 02:34 PM




Ron Kovik didn't realize how bad war was until he was shot and paralyzed in a wheelchair. And even then, it took awhile for him to get around.

Yes, he had to be SHOT first. In other words, wouldn't you want imperialists getting shot so they can realize how bad the war is :lol: They are machines and must be disabled.


Its like trying to blame the gun when somebody uses it to murder another person.

Bullshit. It's blaming the person who pulled the trigger, no ifs ands or buts about it

[Kurt Crover]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 02:07 PM
As for the case of American soldiers going on the rampage, which is inexcusable, it is expected. Vietnam is another example where many innocents were killed by soldiers of both sides. If people are put into these situations by the powers that be, you can expect attociaties like these to be carried out.
Agreed. The US soldiers are mainly brainwashed by the bullshit media about "terrorism". The US soldiers think that they are on some sort of "moral crusade" to "help" Iraq. Just the fact that there are insurgents against them almost every day proves that they are not helping. Also, about the "1 dead soldier, 1 less imperalist", once again, agreed. Also, some people have forgot or don't care anymore that the nonsense excuse about going to war for "recovery of weapons of mass destruction".

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 01:13 PM
Yes but they do not have concioussness. They believe they are doing right. You cannot blame them, they are just pawns. Nothing is resolved by killing those soldiers. Its just taking more lives away in a needless war.
I am not blaming soldiers for the invasion per se.

The problem is, they are enforcing the occupation and the aggression towards the Iraqi population. They are the ones who are pulling the triggers and launching airs-trikes at civilian populations to "root out terrorists".

Either the US troops stay alive and allow Bush and his criminals to continue the occupation and the consequential suffering of the Iraqi people, or the Iraqis fight back and kill as many occupation soldiers in an attempt to kick out the invaders.

Which one would you prefer?


People join the army to protect their country, thats what they believe they are doing.

Their beliefs, which may be a result of indoctrination, are wrong.

The only way in which their beliefs can be fought is if the Iraqis target the soldiers who are "protecting their country".

Many soldiers have refused to fight.

They do have a choice in whether they enforce the occupation or not.


Stop the war I say!

And how do you propose we do this?

It requires the killing of US troops.

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 05:09 PM

I am not blaming soldiers for the invasion per se.

The problem is, they are enforcing the occupation and the aggression towards the Iraqi population. They are the ones who are pulling the triggers and launching airs-trikes at civilian populations to "root out terrorists".

Either the US troops stay alive and allow Bush and his criminals to continue the occupation and the consequential suffering of the Iraqi people, or the Iraqis fight back and kill as many occupation soldiers in an attempt to kick out the invaders.

Which one would you prefer?


Which one would I prefer? Hmm, neither. As a socialist I am a pacifist which means I deplore violnce, death and war. Blaming the people is a right wing idea, not a structralist leftist approach.


Their beliefs, which may be a result of indoctrination, are wrong.

The only way in which their beliefs can be fought is if the Iraqis target the soldiers who are "protecting their country".

Many soldiers have refused to fight.

They do have a choice in whether they enforce the occupation or not.


As you said they are indocrinated, very few can see past the lies of the governments. Many do not have a choice.


QUOTE
Stop the war I say!



And how do you propose we do this?

It requires the killing of US troops.

I guess I was a bit hasty with that remark with the current situation in Iraq, which is very much on the verge of civil war. Killing more people is not going to solve anything. It is a more complex arguement than say two years ago when Iraq was more stable. Somehow the war needs to end, continueing the killing only prolongs it.

[Intifada]

Which one would I prefer? Hmm, neither.

Of course you would rather not choose between two choices like that, but the fact is there are only those two choices, and one has to be made.


As a socialist I am a pacifist which means I deplore violnce, death and war.

So how do you propose the working-class overthrow their class enemies?


Blaming the people is a right wing idea, not a structralist leftist approach.


Who/what do you blame for the exploitation of workers all over the world?

Who/what do you blame for poverty?

I know who and what I blame.


As you said they are indocrinated, very few can see past the lies of the governments.

I understand that, and it is a sad fact, but the oppression of Iraqis is happening and has been for far too long. The only way in which that oppression can end is if the imperialists are kicked out, and that entails attacking the soldiers that are enforcing the injustices.


Many do not have a choice.


Yes they do.


Somehow the war needs to end, continueing the killing only prolongs it.

I am sure that the killing of Coalition troops will eventually result in the end of the occupation.

[Tekun]

Originally posted by FinnMacCool+May 19 2006, 09:48 PM--> (FinnMacCool @ May 19 2006, 09:48 PM)
[email protected] 19 2006, 05:19 AM


1 less soldiers, is one less imperialist
Not really. The soldiers believe in what they are doing. I obviously do not support them but I do have sympathy for them because many of them are working class people who got too caught up in American Patriotism. The fact that the occupying force shoots down civillians is a direct result of the wrongful actions of the men in suits. Soldiers are an unfortunate scapegoat in this. [/b]
The soldiers might believe in what they're doing, but just because they believe in it doesn't make it right, does it?
150 years ago ppl believed in enslaving ppl due to their skin color, did that make it right, obviously it didn't

IMO any sympathy towards professionally armed soldiers who have invaded the sovereignty of others is excusing imperialists
As a human being I always sympathize with those who suffer and are oppressed and exploited
Not with those who are doing the oppression, exploitation, and murder
And in this instance, as far as Im concerned, those who are suffering are the Iraqi's
We should not reverse or confuse the roles
One is in a foreign country, fighting to control that country
The other is in their own country, fighting for their sovereignty
There should be no confusion


The soldiers might be from the working class, but they're fighting against it
And if they refuse to recognize it, its not because they're intoxicated by patriotism, its because they're getting something in return for their service
American patriotism is not common sense, nor should we treat it that way
We're all human beings aren't we?
And as such, we have the ability to discern between what is right and what is wrong
And from all vantage points, going into someone else's country, armed to the teeth, with the intent to suppress any protests, is nothing else than evil
Using patriotism to justify an action makes no sense
One can be patriotic without fighting others in an effort to control their country
One can show their patriotism on the 4th of July, instead of killing those who rebel against their rule

In the past, the American ppl have been able to discern between what is right and what is wrong
If they hadn't...the Vietnam War would still be raging, and McCarthyism would still be around
After all, the government in those times made it seem as if rebeling against both was being unpatriotic, and we saw how the American ppl chose to defy the gov and eventually put an end to both
Therefore, patriotism is no excuse to oppress others, because we all have brains which differentiate between right and wrong

The fact is that most soldiers come from the lower class, and they need the money for college and whatnot
And thus they are willing to kill and destroy others for pay
Simple as that, and to its very core, an evil act

I agree, those in suits are primarily the one's to blame for the rampage in Iraq and Afghanistan
But a gun doesn't shoot innocent civilians all by itself
Someone has to pull the trigger on those ppl
And IMO, those that have the inhumane gall to shoot em, meaning the soldiers, are just as guilty as the men in suits

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 01:20 PM


As a socialist I am a pacifist which means I deplore violnce, death and war.

So how do you propose the working-class overthrow their class enemies?




In the time of revolution then things drmamtically change, as a whole I hope to think that socialists commit themselves to pacifism. Especially in a case of such a war! A working class struggle is not a war.




Blaming the people is a right wing idea, not a structralist leftist approach.


Who/what do you blame for the exploitation of workers all over the world?

Who/what do you blame for poverty?

I know who and what I blame.

Erm...Capitalism.
Whats that got to do with what I said? :huh:
I said blaming the People is a right wing idea. Which is what in effect you are doing.




As you said they are indocrinated, very few can see past the lies of the governments.

I understand that, and it is a sad fact, but the oppression of Iraqis is happening and has been for far too long. The only way in which that oppression can end is if the imperialists are kicked out, and that entails attacking the soldiers that are enforcing the injustices.



Many do not have a choice.


Yes they do.

No, you said you understood that they are indocrinated. How can they have a choice?




Somehow the war needs to end, continueing the killing only prolongs it.

I am sure that the killing of Coalition troops will eventually result in the end of the occupation.

I stick by my earlier statement, the killing will just continue. It's not the only way of getting coalition troops out. Don't forget Iraq will be far from fine once the troops have left. Civil war looms.

[backwardsbulldozer]

Originally posted by Intifada+May 21 2006, 05:09 PM--> (Intifada @ May 21 2006, 05:09 PM)
[email protected] 21 2006, 01:13 PM


Stop the war I say!

And how do you propose we do this?

It requires the killing of US troops.
[/b]
You really believe a war like this one, with the most powerful country in the world hellbent on winning, will be won by the resistance? All they can succeed in doing is defend themselves, which I've already said they have every right to do. Disobeying orders is a crime punishable by time in prison, and even though if I was in a situation where I had to do something I'd face the consequences, you can't say that everyone whose not willing to sacrifice themselves deserves to die.
The intolerance and stereotyping for a wide group of people is just as firm as with anyone on the right. You have to accept that, first of all, not everyone in the military is there for the war (most of them want to get out). Even the people in support of the war and excited to do what they do aren't doing it for imperialism. I disagree with them, I'm sure everyone here does, but there's more opinions than just the ones you find acceptable, and as long as no one is in danger because of them, they need to be allowed to exist. The only imperialists in this and any war are the ones that are safe from it.
I also think those that say what they do about the soldiers need to take a closer look at the resistance forces. Even though many of the people fighting only want to protect themselves and their families, or end the occupation, the leadership is something that isn't worth getting lined up with. Most (not all) of these groups would choose to have Iraq be a theocratic dictatorship if they could, and the leaders of them are far more imperialistic than the average American soldier stuck in the country.
Again, I'm with both sides in defending themselves, but beyond that I can not wish victory for either.

[violencia.Proletariat]

You really believe a war like this one, with the most powerful country in the world hellbent on winning, will be won by the resistance?

Yes it's very possible with wide support from the anti-imperialist movement in the imperialist country.


Disobeying orders is a crime punishable by time in prison

So the fucker who joined the army can deal with this, we don't give a shit.


you can't say that everyone whose not willing to sacrifice themselves deserves to die.

It's not about "deserving" it's just a necessity in order to end imperialism.


You have to accept that, first of all, not everyone in the military is there for the war (most of them want to get out).

Then they shouldn't have joined in the first place. Anyone no matter what their class and education level knows the purpose of the military.


Even the people in support of the war and excited to do what they do aren't doing it for imperialism.

So what? If they can't accept obvious evidence then thats their own fault.


Most (not all) of these groups would choose to have Iraq be a theocratic dictatorship if they could, and the leaders of them are far more imperialistic than the average American soldier stuck in the country.

The leaders of these groups don't have the logistic capabilities of being imperialist. We should let them be a theocracy if need be because historical progression will eventually break it up. What is most important is a country free of imperialism because it haults progress and increases reaction.

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 11:30 PM



Disobeying orders is a crime punishable by time in prison

So the fucker who joined the army can deal with this, we don't give a shit.


you can't say that everyone whose not willing to sacrifice themselves deserves to die.

It's not about "deserving" it's just a necessity in order to end imperialism.


You have to accept that, first of all, not everyone in the military is there for the war (most of them want to get out).

Then they shouldn't have joined in the first place. Anyone no matter what their class and education level knows the purpose of the military.


Hmmm, I'm sorry but this not sound like a leftist approach. We as leftists should understand that these people are falsely class conciouss, and its our duty to help them, not kill them! They join the army because they think its the right thing to do. We are there to tell them otherwise. If we just kill the fellow proletariat we are no more than facists!

[dusk]

That's no news to me.

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 05:14 PM
That's no news to me.
What? :blink:

[violencia.Proletariat]

Hmmm, I'm sorry but this not sound like a leftist approach.

Your deffinition of leftism seems to be sappy liberalism. Guess what, ANTI IMPERIALISM IS LEFTISM!


We as leftists should understand that these people are falsely class conciouss, and its our duty to help them, not kill them!

It's not my duty to help a robot, if that were possible they wouldn't be robots. I can provide resources for leftist ideas, if they don't want them thats not my problem to deal with when they fuck themselves over.


hey join the army because they think its the right thing to do. We are there to tell them otherwise. If we just kill the fellow proletariat we are no more than facists!

I won't be killing any fellow proletarians. The third world citizens will be shooting and invading force, and thats fine by me.

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 08:48 PM



hey join the army because they think its the right thing to do. We are there to tell them otherwise. If we just kill the fellow proletariat we are no more than facists!

I won't be killing any fellow proletarians. The third world citizens will be shooting and invading force, and thats fine by me.
So you'll just sit back and watch hell brake lose? Are you against the war? When the leftists march down the street protesting, will you be with the facists attacking us???

[violencia.Proletariat]

Are you against the war?

Yes but apparently you would rather have soldiers slaughtering third worlders than having them get shot.

I am AGAINST IMPERIALISM, but you seem soft on the subject. Lets look at the situation, you want to end the war and bring them home, well the only way the war is really going to end is with a strong resistance in the third world country and strong resistence at home. Soldiers are gonna have to die to end the war.


When the leftists march down the street protesting, will you be with the facists attacking us???

Listen you piece of shit, if you keep referring to me as a fascist I'm not going to debate with you anymore.

[EwokUtopia]

Your just too violent. You have to stop seeing the regular grunts in the army as the bad guys. For the most part, they are poor brainwashed ignorami who have been lied to their entire lives about democracy and freedom when they cant afford to go to collage, nor have they the ability to work anywhere besides wal-mart. What do you think they do when some guy comes up to them and tells them that joining the army offers adventure and a future to these bored and seemingly futureless people? They are not the enemy, they are the pawns of the enemy. The recruiters, the generals, the officers, the CEO's and the politicians are the enemy. No, seek not violence against the soldiers, seek their liberation. There is a film that shows how the minds of the soldiers, and the propaganda machines of the bosses work, its called Occupation Dreamland, and I heavily suggest anyone interested in this horrible conflict see's it. The soldiers who kill civilians should be punished, but one must also remember that they are told about terrorists and bad guys by their "superiors" and i have no doubt that in the minds of the soldiers (as in the minds of western media) there is little difference between civillians opposed to the occupation and militants. Hell, if we were all Iraqi's, we would be considered militants for speaking thusly, even though none of us (hopefully) are violent people. I have never even touched a gun, nor have I any desire to. There needs to be no violent revolution, the machine is set up on unstable concepts such as infinite economic growth. Think of it as a baloon that the Imperialists want to put more air into indeffinately. Either one of two things will happen: They will run out of breath, or, BOOM. Thats not far off, and after that, the oppurtunity for a bloodless, and therefore pure, revolution will be there.

That having been said, I support resistance against American Imperialism, but I would much rather have peaceful resistance in the streets of New York than bloody resistance in the streets of Fallujah. Unfortunately enough, they have brought bloody occupation to Iraq, bloodless resistance seems a distant dream. I only hope that the misled American soldiers will wake up and leave en masse with the aide of Iraqi resistors. Collaberation is better than bloodshed.

[EwokUtopia]

What will happen is the Americans will never gain control of the Iraqi people, and we'll have another Vietnam very shortly (if we dont already have it, that is). This will be both good and bad. Great that American Imperialism has been halted, but the loss of even one innocent life is tragic. Very few soldiers who are the occupational force are aware of the situation, and they have accepted the lies because thats what they were brought into. I dont hate them for accepting those lies, indeed, I wish they could have a better life where they could live without lies, they arent evil people. Just misled and ignorant. The story of every soldier is tragic, they were all mothers babies, they were all playful children once. They are victims of imperialism. Anti-Imperialism should never preach hatred against victims, even when the victims tale is so tragic that they are supporting the very system that leads them into death and dismay. I, personally, would see no victory in the killing of the entire US army, but rather I would see the tragic loss of a brainwashed generation. Much greater is the victory of a single deserter. I dont want a world free of imperialism at the hands of millions dead, that makes anti-imperialism a bad cause, we must be as bloodless as possible in order to maintain our dignity and not degrade into another USSR. Bloody revolutions make bloody regimes. Let the banners be the red of life, and not of a bloody revolution. Violence begats violence.

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 09:03 PM

Are you against the war?

Yes but apparently you would rather have soldiers slaughtering third worlders than having them get shot.

I am AGAINST IMPERIALISM, but you seem soft on the subject. Lets look at the situation, you want to end the war and bring them home, well the only way the war is really going to end is with a strong resistance in the third world country and strong resistence at home. Soldiers are gonna have to die to end the war.


When the leftists march down the street protesting, will you be with the facists attacking us???

Listen you piece of shit, if you keep referring to me as a fascist I'm not going to debate with you anymore.
Do you have a lust for war and death?!?!?!!?!?!?

What is your problem? If you are against a war then you want it to stop, simple as.

I never called you a facist! Listen! I said you sound like one. Stop using insulting language. There is no need, Its just a limited use of vocabulary!

[violencia.Proletariat]

What is your problem? If you are against a war then you want it to stop, simple as.

Yes I want it to stop. But you being on a streetcorner shouting things won't do it. There must be a stiff resistence movement in the invaded country.

This has nothing to do with "lust" it has to do with reasons the capitalists will withdraw.


I never called you a facist!

You just did, and in the thread on media you have hinted at me being a fascist numerous times.


Listen!

How dare you give me a command, thats like fascism :rolleyes:


Stop using insulting language. There is no need, Its just a limited use of vocabulary!

Fasley referring to me as a fascist is INSULTING, don't dish it out if you can't take it.

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 10:11 PM

What is your problem? If you are against a war then you want it to stop, simple as.

Yes I want it to stop. But you being on a streetcorner shouting things won't do it. There must be a stiff resistence movement in the invaded country.

This has nothing to do with "lust" it has to do with reasons the capitalists will withdraw.




I can'ty believe this! I'm here to argue with other leftists against an illegal war. I don't know what you want! Death? Whats that going to do? It never gets anywhere. All I want is for the war to stiop. There may be impracticalities to ending this war, and I may have a problem with saying how the war will end, but I am not advocating the continueation of the war, and definateley celebrating the death of people. Its an illegal war, and its turned inrto a blood bath.



I never called you a facist!

You just did, and in the thread on media you have hinted at me being a fascist numerous times.


One more time! I NEVER CALLED YOU A FACIST!



Listen!

How dare you give me a command, thats like fascism

Oh you're funny, but you are paying attention right?

Okay; lets settle this, because its getting out of hand.

I hate war and death. I cannot support it. Now maybe I misunderstood you, What do you want out of the war?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Its an illegal war, and its turned inrto a blood bath.

And you think its outrages to want those who cause the bloodbath to be killed by those who are being slaughtered.


I hate war and death. I cannot support it. Now maybe I misunderstood you, What do you want out of the war?

I want the end to imperialism. If it takes the death of invading US troops than thats fine by me. They are volunteer soldiers so they asked for it. Why is what I'm saying so shocking, what do you think a soldiers job is? Their job is to kill, if they don't do it well they die.

[chimx]

For every atrocity by imperialist troops in Iraq that makes the news (this surfaced only because one of the survivors filmed it) you can be sure that there are dozens that no one in the West hears about. No sympathy for US troops is exusable, they are all mass murderers or accomplice mass murderers.

i'll make sure to tell my friend helen that before she gets shipped off to iraq next month, you fucking piece of shit. fuck you, you insensitive naive prick.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 07:55 PM

For every atrocity by imperialist troops in Iraq that makes the news (this surfaced only because one of the survivors filmed it) you can be sure that there are dozens that no one in the West hears about. No sympathy for US troops is exusable, they are all mass murderers or accomplice mass murderers.

i'll make sure to tell my friend helen that before she gets shipped off to iraq next month, you fucking piece of shit. fuck you, you insensitive naive prick.
Sad story, much sadder for the Iraqis who now have no water or electricity because of Helen's career choice.

[chimx]

you fucking naive lifestyle privleged "revolutionaries" need to get your fucking heads out of your bourgeois asses and realize poor folk join the army to get money for school, etc. so they can better their condition--not because they are morally in agreement with any war.

why don't you work on marginalizing yourself into your fucking self-righteous ghetto more you shit.

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 09:18 PM

That having been said, I support resistance against American Imperialism, but I would much rather have peaceful resistance in the streets of New York than bloody resistance in the streets of Fallujah. Unfortunately enough, they have brought bloody occupation to Iraq, bloodless resistance seems a distant dream. I only hope that the misled American soldiers will wake up and leave en masse with the aide of Iraqi resistors. Collaberation is better than bloodshed.
This is it. Fight imperialism not the people. Ewokutopia you have the idea! I've finnished. I've talked to my fellow comrades and read some articles off this post and agree that imperialism must be fought but pity must be taken on the individuals who are swept up in this war.

The war at the moment seems to everlasting. The imperialists won't go, they won't lose. They will only leave out of their own free will. This will proberly not happen due to the oil fields. So to support the death of these soldiers is futile. Imperialism can only lose on the streets in the coalition countries or a break in the ranks of the army. The resistance can only fought by us at home!

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 01:12 AM
you fucking naive lifestyle privleged "revolutionaries" need to get your fucking heads out of your bourgeois asses and realize poor folk join the army to get money for school, etc. so they can better their condition--not because they are morally in agreement with any war.

why don't you work on marginalizing yourself into your fucking self-righteous ghetto more you shit.
I love seeing imperialists whacked. Occupation soldiers like your stupid Helen have caused havoc for plenty of my friends and family, so fuck off with your lecture, professor.

[TC]

Wells writes

As a socialist I am a pacifist which means I deplore violnce, death and war.

Pacifism and socialism are ideologically incompatable. A pacifist tells someone being repressed that they're no better than their oppressors if they retaliate, a socialist tells them they have a right to fight back.



Killing more people is not going to solve anything. It is a more complex arguement than say two years ago when Iraq was more stable. Somehow the war needs to end, continueing the killing only prolongs it.

To stop killing american soldiers in Iraq would be allowing the war to end on their terms, allowing the Americans to dictate Iraqs affairs to America's advantage, exploiting Iraqs resources and people. There is no peace for people under a brutal military occupation, it is inherently violent, the only choice is whether or not they want the violence to be all one sided or whether they want to resist it.

EwokUtopia
Your just too violent. You have to stop seeing the regular grunts in the army as the bad guys.

violencia.Proletariat is too violent you say? Did he volenteer years of his life to train with guns to travel thousands of miles to shoot and kill people, in an organization whose only mission is to kill people; is he killing people right now? No, and guess who are, the regular grunts you make exuses for.

Supporting the troops is a way of reaffirming your loyality to the state and current social system, thats why all of the liberal peace protesters like the slogan 'support our troops, bring them home.' Its a way of saying that you're loyal opposition, you don't like what they're doing but you're with them. Well guess what, Communists are not loyal to the bourgeois state and we aren't loyal to bourgeois society. If you want to hug a soldier, join the democrats.

Wells writes

Do you have a lust for war and death?!?!?!!?!?!?

More like you do as you can't bare to hear anyone criticize the people who actually brought war and death to Iraq.


I don't know what you want! Death? Whats that going to do?

The death of American soldiers will do the same thing it did in Vietnam: create unacceptably high political and financial costs back in the US over a long enough time that the government is forced retreat by internal pressures. In order for that to happen, Iraqis know they have to kill a lot of American soldiers, just as the Vietnamese did.

chimx writes

i'll make sure to tell my friend helen that before she gets shipped off to iraq next month, you fucking piece of shit

Then i guess any anti-imperialist would hope she comes back in a wheelchair or a body bag and you make better choices about who you're friends with. You should be ashamed to associate with state-hired killers not bragging about it.


you fucking naive lifestyle privleged "revolutionaries" need to get your fucking heads out of your bourgeois asses and realize poor folk join the army to get money for school, etc. so they can better their condition--not because they are morally in agreement with any war.


If you haven't noticed, attempting to selfish better ones own condition at the expense of others is the principle motivation for almost all forms of human cruelity and injustice in the world. You could just as easily appologize for the capitalists, who after all, only exploit wage labor to better their own condition, to send their kids to school and such. The difference is that while capitalists are willing to take advantage of people for money, soldiers are willing to kill for it. An imperialist soldier is worse than a local capitalist.

The fact that they're willing to murder for self interest rather than beliefs just makes them all the more disgusting.

Your sympathies should be with the much poorer people in Iraq who are being murdered and tortured rather than with the comparatively privileged americans willing to butcher people for cash.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 09:12 PM
you fucking naive lifestyle privleged "revolutionaries" need to get your fucking heads out of your bourgeois asses and realize poor folk join the army to get money for school, etc. so they can better their condition--not because they are morally in agreement with any war.

why don't you work on marginalizing yourself into your fucking self-righteous ghetto more you shit.
To get money for school to do what? In hopes of becoming bourgeois themselves? If you need money for school play their damn game by studying their curriculums, at least you won't be killing for imperialist purposes that way!

What are you proposing? We should tell everyone to join the army to "better" their conditions? Then whats the point of all this revolutionary talk?

I didn't know getting killed or whacking yourself out with militarist nonsense was bettering yourself? Whats next chopping your hand off gives you enlightenment? :lol:

[Wells]

I think me and my socialist allies have explained our viewpoints and made them clear. We hate imperialism but are against death. You anarchists seem to think this death will get somewhere.

[chimx]

you're living in a ghetto.

[Wells]

Ghetto? Is that insultorary? I thought you were on the same lines as me?

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 08:55 PM
I hope to think that socialists commit themselves to pacifism. Especially in a case of such a war! A working class struggle is not a war.
Do you actually believe that the ruling Capitalist class will roll over when the revolution comes into fruition?

You are seriously deluded if you think that we can overthrow Capitalism without violence.


Erm...Capitalism.
Whats that got to do with what I said? :huh:
I said blaming the People is a right wing idea. Which is what in effect you are doing.

Capitalism, and the Capitalists that preserve the system, are to blame.

The US Army are not "the people".

The US Army is an anti-leftist, Imperialist machine that should be destroyed whenever possible.


No, you said you understood that they are indocrinated. How can they have a choice?


Look, the issue here is not one of good and bad. The issue here is that the occupation of Iraq can only be ended through victory against the invading US-led forces. The occupation is enforced by US troops, so the logical thing to do is to target and kill those soldiers.

Those US soldiers who do not want to help the Imperialist ambitions of their ruling class can refuse to fight and join the growing list of brave Iraq Veterans who oppose the war.

They do have a choice, it is the Iraqi people that have no choice!


I stick by my earlier statement, the killing will just continue. It's not the only way of getting coalition troops out. Don't forget Iraq will be far from fine once the troops have left. Civil war looms.

You are living in cuckoo-land if you truly believe that the US-led occupation of Iraq can be brought to an end without the Iraqi people themselves resisting the aggression that they have had to deal with.

Moreover, you even quote the excuse of Bush and Blair to justify the ongoing occupation. Of course Iraq won't be fine after the troops are kicked out but it is getting much worse under US-led rule.

The Iraqi people are already enduring hell on Earth.

[chimx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 03:29 AM
Ghetto? Is that insultorary? I thought you were on the same lines as me?
i was referring to the fucking assholes that are too engulfed by their ridiculous and self-righteous morality to understand the reality of the situation. they've attacked my friends and family and deserve a butcher knife in their face

[Matty_UK]

I wonder, if the people here glorifying the murder of grunts have actually met anyone working class. I can't believe anyone working class could be so hateful to their former classmates, friends and colleagues who they know as good people who naively joined the army out of the belief that they are somehow defending their country and family.

Only people who think like authoritarians blame the people, true rationalists can objectively see it's a product of environment.

[Wells]

Originally posted by chimx+May 24 2006, 11:19 AM--> (chimx @ May 24 2006, 11:19 AM)
[email protected] 24 2006, 03:29 AM
Ghetto? Is that insultorary? I thought you were on the same lines as me?
i was referring to the fucking assholes that are too engulfed by their ridiculous and self-righteous morality to understand the reality of the situation. they've attacked my friends and family and deserve a butcher knife in their face [/b]
Oh sorry.

I think I've made my point twenty times already, this is going round in circles. I can only see for and against the war. I am against it.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 11:19 AM
I wonder, if the people here glorifying the murder of grunts have actually met anyone working class. I can't believe anyone working class could be so hateful to their former classmates, friends and colleagues who they know as good people who naively joined the army out of the belief that they are somehow defending their country and family.

Only people who think like authoritarians blame the people, true rationalists can objectively see it's a product of environment.
Nobody is glorifying the murder of the soldiers in Iraq, but if they do, can you really blame them?

The sad fact of the matter is that the troops will have to be attacked and killed for the occupation of Iraq to come to an end. The Iraqi people have no choice but to resist, and that resistance will reflect the brutality of the occupation at times.

The soldiers of Nazi Germany were also heavily indoctrinated, but that means nothing when it comes to the life and death/freedom or occupation situation that many Europeans found themselves in not too long ago.

Iraqis find themselves in a reflection of that situation.

The Iraqis have to fight for their freedom and for their lives.

At the same time, the worldwide anti-Imperialist movement must call for troops to be brought home now.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, I happened to pay my respects to the 100th UK soldier to die in Iraq. Allan Douglas was from Aberdeen, and there was a moving vigil in which the few dead troops of the UK were remembered alongside the many dead innocent Iraqis. I do feel pity for the soldiers in Iraq because they should be at home with their friends and family.

[Wells]

Originally posted by Intifada+May 24 2006, 11:53 AM--> (Intifada @ May 24 2006, 11:53 AM)
[email protected] 24 2006, 11:19 AM
I wonder, if the people here glorifying the murder of grunts have actually met anyone working class. I can't believe anyone working class could be so hateful to their former classmates, friends and colleagues who they know as good people who naively joined the army out of the belief that they are somehow defending their country and family.

Only people who think like authoritarians blame the people, true rationalists can objectively see it's a product of environment.
Nobody is glorifying the murder of the soldiers in Iraq, but if they do, can you really blame them?

The sad fact of the matter is that the troops will have to be attacked and killed for the occupation of Iraq to come to an end. The Iraqi people have no choice but to resist, and that resistance will reflect the brutality of the occupation at times.

The soldiers of Nazi Germany were also heavily indoctrinated, but that means nothing when it comes to the life and death/freedom or occupation situation that many Europeans found themselves in not too long ago.

Iraqis find themselves in a reflection of that situation.

The Iraqis have to fight for their freedom and for their lives.

At the same time, the worldwide anti-Imperialist movement must call for troops to be brought home now.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, I happened to pay my respects to the 100th UK soldier to die in Iraq. Allan Douglas was from Aberdeen, and there was a moving vigil in which the few dead troops of the UK were remembered alongside the many dead innocent Iraqis. I do feel pity for the soldiers in Iraq because they should be at home with their friends and family. [/b]
I agree to a certain extent.

However the war in Iraq will not end through bloodshed. You said you have to feel pity on these indocrinated soldiers, but quite rightly you have to support the world wide anti-imperialist movement, which is here at home on the streets.

[backwardsbulldozer]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 11:19 AM
I wonder, if the people here glorifying the murder of grunts have actually met anyone working class. I can't believe anyone working class could be so hateful to their former classmates, friends and colleagues who they know as good people who naively joined the army out of the belief that they are somehow defending their country and family.

Only people who think like authoritarians blame the people, true rationalists can objectively see it's a product of environment.
Thank you. All of you saying that soldiers should die are making it obvious that they have never met one. Your perception of them is of something far more evil than anyone I have ever met. You have to realize that people being used (in this case, mainly against their wishes and values) to do something you are opposed to are humans, and that more war does nothing.
I'm suprised how many people think this war will end with the killing of soldiers. The most powerful country in the world is deadset on having this be just the prologue to a war they say will last a lifetime. The level of power concentrated into this is something that no resistance can stop. The war will be almost won for the Iraqis, who will now be just one of many people occupied, once millions of Americans have been drafted and killed. So, no, I don't want to see good people killed by other good people for bad reasons. The only people I think truly deserve to die are the ones that control this, and since assassination, especially in a country with such a powerful media, is not a wise idea for the cause of the assassin, I wouldn't support that either. Anyways, even if the leaders who cause this die, they'd only be replaced by more people with the exact same goals. The true heads of this power structure will most likely never be known. Killing soldiers only drags it out and makes everyone who cared about the victim a reason to forever believe in the lies they died for.

[piet11111]

the netherlands actually has some sort of union for soldiers but this only serves as a platform to make sure their imperialist trip is not going to turn into a meat grinder for them.

when i saw how the soldiers looked forward to going to the afghan province of uruzgan i dropped my sympathy for them.
these soldiers are all capable to reject their mission based on moral grounds and whatnot yet they still go.
i have an older cousin that is in iraq as a vehicle recovery specialist and i fear for his life
but i realise that he had a choice in this.

to me there is no excuse for participation in imperialism unless you are literally forced.

[violencia.Proletariat]

I think me and my socialist allies have explained our viewpoints and made them clear. We hate imperialism but are against death. You anarchists seem to think this death will get somewhere.

Your not a socialist, YOUR A FUCKING LIBERAL who gives lip service, you will not stand up to imperialists!

Revolution is obviously out of the question for you because you seem to value reactionaries and wan't to give them full rights to destroy the working class.

SECONDLY, don't turn this into sectarian nonsense, Tragic Clown is by far not an anarchist, we just have views on imperialism that MAKE SENSE so we agree with eachother.


i was referring to the fucking assholes that are too engulfed by their ridiculous and self-righteous morality to understand the reality of the situation. they've attacked my friends and family and deserve a butcher knife in their face

Yes you spam. Moralism? I don't involve myself in morality, it's subjective and has no basis in rational thought.

We deserve a butcher knife in the face because your family kills Iraqi workers and peasants? Did you just pull that out of your ass? :lol:

If you value people who unquestionably kill people for imperialist purposes you are a fucking asshole.

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 07:37 PM

I think me and my socialist allies have explained our viewpoints and made them clear. We hate imperialism but are against death. You anarchists seem to think this death will get somewhere.

Your not a socialist, YOUR A FUCKING LIBERAL who gives lip service, you will not stand up to imperialists!

Revolution is obviously out of the question for you because you seem to value reactionaries and wan't to give them full rights to destroy the working class.

SECONDLY, don't turn this into sectarian nonsense, Tragic Clown is by far not an anarchist, we just have views on imperialism that MAKE SENSE so we agree with eachother.




I am a socialist! I believe in a united left, something you do not. I am not a liberal. I know the reality of capitalism and imperialism. This has gone far beyond the subject of the war in Iraq and onto a personal crusade. You call yourself an anarchist! Your like no anarchist I've ever met. I thought they believed in freedom not Stalinism. Oh, and remember how you said I shouldn't call you a Stalinist (Which I didn't) well I got news for you! You're a Stalinist. Fight imperialism I say, not the people. Your kind gives the left a bad name.

I don't know where you get most of your ideas from. I'm attempting to find a way for world wide unity in the ranks of the working class, you seem hell bent on killing them.

This has to stop NOW! An interesting debate about the situation in Iraq HAS turned into sectarian divide. See how we are calling each other liberals and Stalinists? If you want to talk about real issues like Iraq and have a healthy debate then fine, I will be prepared to do that. If you want to carry on insulting people then I'm just not going to answer you anymore.

I used to get on with anarchists, and I properly still do, but god help us if they are all like you.

I can't believe half my posts have been posted in anger. Some debating forum this is.

[chimx]

go fucking dumpster dive some bagels you fucking anti-worker lifestylist piece of shit, stop wasting our time with your one-dimensional arguments and come back when you have finished with highschool.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 02:59 AM
I think me and my socialist allies have explained our viewpoints and made them clear. We hate imperialism but are against death. You anarchists seem to think this death will get somewhere.
There are plenty of socialists glorifying killing soldiers; I am an anarchist and I don't see things as black and white, and indeed earlier tonight I was having a drink with 5 anarchists from the projectile collective and they were mocking the idiots who have infantile attitudes to the Iraq war that amount to "the enemy of the enemy is my friend."

Don't think of anarchists as like socialists but more extreme because it's simply not true.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 07:37 PM
Your not a socialist, YOUR A FUCKING LIBERAL who gives lip service, you will not stand up to imperialists!

Revolution is obviously out of the question for you because you seem to value reactionaries and wan't to give them full rights to destroy the working class.

SECONDLY, don't turn this into sectarian nonsense, Tragic Clown is by far not an anarchist, we just have views on imperialism that MAKE SENSE so we agree with eachother.


i was referring to the fucking assholes that are too engulfed by their ridiculous and self-righteous morality to understand the reality of the situation. they've attacked my friends and family and deserve a butcher knife in their face

Yes you spam. Moralism? I don't involve myself in morality, it's subjective and has no basis in rational thought.

We deserve a butcher knife in the face because your family kills Iraqi workers and peasants? Did you just pull that out of your ass? :lol:

If you value people who unquestionably kill people for imperialist purposes you are a fucking asshole.
You assume the Iraqi insurgents are all good; fact is they are probably worse than the Americans, at least a great deal of them-religious fanatics, totally anathema to rational thought. By your logic we should cheer when they die because they are reactionary fucks. And then cheer when the other side dies because they too are reactionary fucks. So we can start a merry carnival to celebrate everyone dying in war.

I accept that it is to be expected that the Iraqi's are going to resist violently, but it's just plain ignorance and stupidity to demonise the soldiers in such a way.

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 10:59 PM
go fucking dumpster dive some bagels you fucking anti-worker lifestylist piece of shit, stop wasting our time with your one-dimensional arguments and come back when you have finished with highschool.
Riiiiiight. What a great Left alliance we have. I'm so sorry I can't see the ways of death and destruction. Yea, I'll go and relate with proper socialists and talk about proper issues. Don't expect me back on this thread!

[EwokUtopia]

Violencia seems to forget that one of the problems of the masses is that they are drafted into armies, dont make the mistake in thinking that just because they are volunteer soldiers that their choice was their own. Soldiers are almost allways working class. They are brainwashed people who have been given lies about their supposed enemies and false promises of a better life. Its the same here as it was 1000 years ago. You speak of violent revolution, lets take a look at violent revolution. Who do you think hoisted the red flags over the old Russian Empire? Soldiers who were tired of being lied to and shot for nothing. They were involved in an imperialist war that utterly dwarfs anything in Iraq, indeed take a look at history and you realize that all the weakness in the middle east and the division of its people (thereby allowing for oppression and exploitation of its people by America, Israel, and other capitalist powers) stems from world war 1. Just as did the bloody revolution. Same concept, no human life was valued in that war, just like it is in Iraq. I however would like to end that cycle, and despite the negative backlash this is bound to recieve from the pumped up, over-testosteroned macho gung-ho revolutionaries who want to kill shit and talk about that from their computer desk, I value all life. Give me the most evil person imaginable and a pistol and I still would not shoot them. You may call me reactionary or weak, or soft, or any other bullshit that frankly strikes me much in the same way as hawkish conservative babble, but I dont care. I oppose war, and would like to see an end to it. Killing US troops wont end the war, indeed, if too many are killed, that will open a new threat that is far more frightening: The Draft.

If you are so eager to blow shit up and kill misled proletarians to attempt to destroy the bourgeoisie (not a very good strategy, as killing pawns usually plays into the tactics of the king) then stop sitting around on the internet and being some fucking Chuck Norris of the left. Frankly, some of the posts ive read here read like the early-warning signs of people who will eventually climb a clock tower with an uzi and have their own personal little revolution.

Unfortunately there is a war, and people are killed in a war, but you dont help the peace movement by getting jollies when an American or British soldier dies. You dont know who the fuck they were, or why they joined the army, or whether they would have rather stayed home, perhaps they felt as if there was nothing at home for them to stay for. Thus is the sorrow of the American Working Class, and thats why you dont see the Bush girls in Baghdad with the army.

US soldiers support Imperialism without knowing it. They dont understant the concepts of Bourgeois exploitation, nor do they understand the economic implications of the war. In their brainwashed minds, they are helping the people. Perhaps if they spoke Arabic or went to a socially active university, or even finished high school in many cases, they would know better and get the fuck out of Iraq, but they dont. They never had the oppurtunity for the most part, then some asshole in a uniform says he can give them that oppurtunity. If you dont find this tragic, then you have little to know understanding of the plight of the proletariate or how the ruling class makes its power, and your just being a shit-disturber on the internet. Tell me, violencia, how many imperialists have you killed today?

[violencia.Proletariat]

something you do not

You can't really unite idealogies that contradict each other.


I know the reality of capitalism and imperialism.


Yet you don't support phsyical resistence to it.

Your like no anarchist I've ever met.

I know, the anarchists here have these crazy ideas, as...as if they wanted to overthrow capitalism or something :o :lol:


You're a Stalinist

Prove it. I have always called for direct democratic control over production and the community by the people. Does that sound stalinist to you? You equate me to stalin because I say imperialists should get whats coming to them. Do you really think that, you are very daft if you do.


Fight imperialism I say, not the people.

Imperialism is not a "thing." It's ideas and actions performed by PEOPLE. How do you stop imperialism? By getting rid of the imperialists! You seem to think we can out-debate them and they will just stop all of a sudden :lol:


Your kind gives the left a bad name.

By whos terms? The bourgeoisie, it will always be bad to them. I have yet to meet many working people who could give to shits about some rich bastard.


you seem hell bent on killing them

Because the majority of the working class is in the military? Your daft.


HAS turned into sectarian divide

Which you are alone perpetuating, by calling us "your kind." You sound like a backwoods racist. And if my view of anti-imperialism is shocking, I think your going to have a hard time uniting the left as most revolutionaries have similar views.


but god help us if they are all like you.

"They" again, you are really smashing the sectarian barriers here aren't ya?

[violencia.Proletariat]

go fucking dumpster dive some bagels you fucking anti-worker lifestylist piece of shit, stop wasting our time with your one-dimensional arguments and come back when you have finished with highschool.

:lol: You are at best laughable. I'm anti worker yet you support people who slaughter them! If you actually read around the board you would find that I am in no way a lifestyle and infact speak out against it. Are people who haven't finished highschool worth less than you? Sounds awfully ageist.


Violencia seems to forget that one of the problems of the masses is that they are drafted into armies, dont make the mistake in thinking that just because they are volunteer soldiers that their choice was their own.

The US army does not have a draft right now. Draftee armies are a different story and are much more resistant. Once the soldiers start fragging thier own officers and stop killing people, I'll support them then, fully! But as long as they are taking orders they are robots.


Soldiers are almost allways working class. They are brainwashed people who have been given lies about their supposed enemies and false promises of a better life.

It's not rocket science to know getting shot at on a regular basis is not "better" than being poor.


Who do you think hoisted the red flags over the old Russian Empire? Soldiers who were tired of being lied to and shot for nothing.

Yes and they resisted, and I would have supported them had I been around. But your troops today aren't resisting, they are killing working people.


I value all life. Give me the most evil person imaginable and a pistol and I still would not shoot them. You may call me reactionary or weak, or soft, or any other bullshit that frankly strikes me much in the same way as hawkish conservative babble, but I dont care.

I'm not going to call you anything but daft. You can have your bloodless revolutiona nd let your armed enemies run a muck, we will see how far that gets you.

I on the other hand don't value all life equally. If your a rich asshole who suppresses the working class you aren't worth a dime compared to a prole.


If you are so eager to blow shit up and kill misled proletarians to attempt to destroy the bourgeoisie (not a very good strategy, as killing pawns usually plays into the tactics of the king) then stop sitting around on the internet and being some fucking Chuck Norris of the left.

Where have I said I want to go out and "blow shit up" and go on a rampage? If I remember correctly I was arugeing in favor for people in countries invaded by imperialists defending themselves with arms.


Unfortunately there is a war, and people are killed in a war, but you dont help the peace movement by getting jollies when an American or British soldier dies.

How do we help the peace movement by sending gift packages to people who are killing people? :lol:


You dont know who the fuck they were, or why they joined the army, or whether they would have rather stayed home, perhaps they felt as if there was nothing at home for them to stay for.

Then they obviously thought that risking their life was worth it. I don't care what your circumstances are, thats NO excuse to un-questionably murder people.


Thus is the sorrow of the American Working Class, and thats why you dont see the Bush girls in Baghdad with the army.

Yes because they get an idiot to do their killing for them, not someone I wan't to make friends with.

[Wanted Man]

TragicClown and Violencia are entirely correct. Look at those cute little liberals. Ooh, and we have a RAANite waving the anti-civilisation flag making ageist comments. Bloody brilliant. Because anybody who doesn't go to high school or participates in other bourgeois institutions is inherently worth less? Way to go, you fucking tool.

[CCCPneubauten]

Wells....in the words of Nikita Khrushchev, "When it comes to combating imperialism we are all Stalinists"
Calling some one a Stalinist when talking about imperialism isn't saying much, as yes, in that sector of politics, I am, as is Tragic and as are many.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 11:45 PM
Wells....in the words of Nikita Khrushchev, "When it comes to combating imperialism we are all Stalinists"
Calling some one a Stalinist when talking about imperialism isn't saying much, as yes, in that sector of politics, I am, as is Tragic and as are many.
Because Khrushchev was the best model of opposition to imperialism! Under Khrushchev, half of Europe was forced under the sway of the USSR, which, despite bearing the communist namesake, was an imperialist nation-state. People who resisted Soviet Imperialism were forced back into their sphere of power just like Iraq resisted America and was forced back. Dont quote the leader of a superpower if you want to stand against imperialism. Imperialism and a Superpower nation-state are synonymous.

[Ander]

violencia.Proletaria, it is difficult debating with you because you get downright insulting.

While I believe that it is the right of the Iraqi people to fight back against those who occupy their nation, I do not celebrate the deaths of anyone.

As for ending the occupation, why are all of you Americans not out protesting? It's easy to sit on the computer and talk about all of this, but unless you are actually doing something about it, what is the point?

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 11:52 PM
violencia.Proletaria, it is difficult debating with you because you get downright insulting.

While I believe that it is the right of the Iraqi people to fight back against those who occupy their nation, I do not celebrate the deaths of anyone.

As for ending the occupation, why are all of you Americans not out protesting? It's easy to sit on the computer and talk about all of this, but unless you are actually doing something about it, what is the point?
Well Said. There will be resistance to occupation, and this is nessisary, but the death of the poor grunt who unwittingly is involved in the occupation is not a thing to be celebrated. When it comes down to the life of an Iraqi civillian or the life of the US soldier, I will of course choose the Iraqi because they are the victimized nation being bombed asunder. However I would rather neither die, and the only way for this to happen is to end the war, which wont come about as a result of violence, but rather by seeing the futility of war. The defeat of the US in Iraq will be economic, not military. Let the resisters speak for themselves.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...raqi+resistance (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5292613146163171775&q=iraqi+resistance)

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 11:16 PM

something you do not

You can't really unite idealogies that contradict each other.









Okay, I said I wouldn't reply, but this guy has given me perfect opportunity to rip him to shreads.

The leftist Ideology has united in the past, quite successfully at times. Look at the Spanish Civil war. The problem is when people like you infiltrate the left because you think you're helping the working class by killing them all.



I know the reality of capitalism and imperialism.

Yet you don't support phsyical resistence to it.

Of course not! I'm a socialist and a pacifist. We are not like them! In some cases people need to defend themselves, but surely we should use the least possible amount of violence, and definitely not advocate it!





Your like no anarchist I've ever met.

I know, the anarchists here have these crazy ideas, as...as if they wanted to overthrow capitalism or something :o :lol:

No, that sounds like the anarchists I've met. They want to overthrow it constructively. Okay, they tend to be violent, but as extreme as you???




You're a Stalinist

Prove it. I have always called for direct democratic control over production and the community by the people. Does that sound stalinist to you? You equate me to stalin because I say imperialists should get whats coming to them. Do you really think that, you are very daft if you do.

Lets see,

Stalinism the definition:

principles and policies of Stalin: the political principles and economic policies developed by Joseph Stalin from Marxist-Leninist thought, which included centralized autocratic rule and total suppression of dissent.

Maybe you don't know it yet but you're heading toward that role. What do you mean by "imperialists should get what’s coming to them."? Are they really? I bet George Bush in the Whitehouse and Tony Blair at ten downing street are getting a good mauling out of this. I don't think so. The indoctrinated prole is getting killed. I've already stated I support the resistance against imperialism, but I don’t support the death of anyone!




Fight imperialism I say, not the people.

Imperialism is not a "thing." It's ideas and actions performed by PEOPLE. How do you stop imperialism? By getting rid of the imperialists! You seem to think we can out-debate them and they will just stop all of a sudden :lol:

What? Imperialism is an aspect of Capitalism, a system. So let me get this straight. To overthrow capitalism in your eyes is to kill all the workers so capitalism can't exist anymore... :huh:. Yeeees, You're definitely not a Stalinist. Stop blaming the people and start blaming the systems! You can debate with the people, who you say are imperialists. What do you think we're doing here??? You get the people on your side then the imperialist haven't got anyone to do their dirty work. An American soldier is not an imperialist. I said it a dozen times already; the fight is on the streets back here!




Your kind gives the left a bad name.

By whos terms? The bourgeoisie, it will always be bad to them. I have yet to meet many working people who could give to shits about some rich bastard.

To the conformist you idiot! The falsely class conscious individual. Many people think "Rich bastards" are legitimate business men who have done a good job in life to get where they are. In fact some go as far as idolizing them, saying they wished to be like them and be as successful. Then people like you come along and say all soldiers in Iraq should die. What are they going to think!? Your some sick twisted Looney leftist. "If the rest of them are like him/her then god help us!"




you seem hell bent on killing them

Because the majority of the working class is in the military? Your daft.


Well, duh. Who do you think serves in the army? George Bush' family? Yea, how daft of me. Not all the working class serves in the army, but whether it is with a gun or a pen they are part of the capitalist system. Its our job to change that, not kill them! The one with the gun may kill people directly, but the other kills them indirectly and properly more, here’s a term for you to learn; Globalisation! We'll kill all the workers now shall we, because they contribute to the death of third worlders?




HAS turned into sectarian divide

Which you are alone perpetuating, by calling us "your kind." You sound like a backwoods racist. And if my view of anti-imperialism is shocking, I think your going to have a hard time uniting the left as most revolutionaries have similar views.


Yes, your kind, not true anarchists. Me a racist, you have no idea who I am! Don't ever call me a racist. Revolutionary lefts having your views, hah. I know far too many who talk of peace not violence. You started the divide. I merely mentioned the term Stalinist cause it stank of it. You blatantly called me a liberal.



but god help us if they are all like you.

"They" again, you are really smashing the sectarian barriers here aren't ya?

Nope, just Bloodlusters like you, not the whole radical wing of the left wing cause. They actually have practical ideas.

[violencia.Proletariat]

While I believe that it is the right of the Iraqi people to fight back against those who occupy their nation, I do not celebrate the deaths of anyone.

Do you see me throwing a party? I'm defending their right to defend themselves and for some reason I get called sadistic.


As for ending the occupation, why are all of you Americans not out protesting? It's easy to sit on the computer and talk about all of this, but unless you are actually doing something about it, what is the point?

I've been to anti-war protests when they have happened near me, pretty insignificant since they are run by liberals.


Look at the Spanish Civil war. The problem is when people like you infiltrate the left because you think you're helping the working class by killing them all.

:lol: You have got to be joking me, your going to lecture me on the SCW eh? First of all there was major sectarianism in the spanish civil war between stalinists and the popular front and trotyskyists and the anarchists.

Secondly, how dare you use the SCW as an example! You know what those anarchists and communists did, they executed fascists! :o OMG THOSE MONSTERS, :rolleyes:

They suppressed the counterrevolutionaries, something you are morally opposed to.


I'm a socialist and a pacifist.

Then don't soil the Spanish comrades names by using their revolution in your arguement. They didn't sit around and get rolled over, they fought back with arms!


and definitely not advocate it!

So you are a reformist? Revolutions are violent, thats how it happens.


They want to overthrow it constructively.

Yes and thats why I've never met a pacifist anarchist.


Maybe you don't know it yet but you're heading toward that role.

Lets see, I don't fit any of that deffinition as I'm not leninist. Secondly comparing my view of the DOP to Stalin is laughable, I'm against prisons of any kind therefore making my suppression no where near the level of his. Those who shall be executed shall be those directly involved in armed struggle against the revolution and those with extreme significance and power in the pre-revolutionary society. I don't find anything unreasonable about that nor do most people here.


What do you mean by "imperialists should get what’s coming to them."?

If they are sacrificing the working class and exploiting them for personal gain they shall be suppressed until they cannot possibly do this anymore.


To overthrow capitalism in your eyes is to kill all the workers so capitalism can't exist anymore

Can you please make up more shit. NOTHING I HAVE SAID IN THIS THREAD EVEN POINTS TO A DAFT IDEA. If you must resort to this I am not going to continue to argue with a brick wall.


An American soldier is not an imperialist.

If they do not activley resist their duty to the best of their ability than they are loyal to imperialists.


Who do you think serves in the army?

Right now we have had an upsurge of the "military families" but other than that proles. Thats not what I ment with that statement anyways you idiot. No significant percentage of the proletariat is in the army.


Not all the working class serves in the army, but whether it is with a gun or a pen they are part of the capitalist system.

Completely un-comparable. Working a job out of necessity is in no way equal to volunteering to take part in imperialist conquest and doing the dirty work.


Yes, your kind, not true anarchists. Me a racist, you have no idea who I am! Don't ever call me a racist. Revolutionary lefts having your views, hah. I know far too many who talk of peace not violence. You started the divide. I merely mentioned the term Stalinist cause it stank of it. You blatantly called me a liberal.

Hmm, no one I no of at this board is a pacifist. There may be a few with a soft spot for it. I want peace as much as everyone else but we can't have peace with capitalists in power. You have provided no realistic alternative to get them out of power and succesfully keep them out.

[CCCPneubauten]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+May 24 2006, 11:51 PM--> (EwokUtopia @ May 24 2006, 11:51 PM)
[email protected] 24 2006, 11:45 PM
Wells....in the words of Nikita Khrushchev, "When it comes to combating imperialism we are all Stalinists"
Calling some one a Stalinist when talking about imperialism isn't saying much, as yes, in that sector of politics, I am, as is Tragic and as are many.
Because Khrushchev was the best model of opposition to imperialism! Under Khrushchev, half of Europe was forced under the sway of the USSR, which, despite bearing the communist namesake, was an imperialist nation-state. People who resisted Soviet Imperialism were forced back into their sphere of power just like Iraq resisted America and was forced back. Dont quote the leader of a superpower if you want to stand against imperialism. Imperialism and a Superpower nation-state are synonymous. [/b]
I could have said it myself, yet I didn't wan tto take credit for something I didn't say. If I didn't credit the quote you'd probally agree with it. :)

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 12:34 AM
I could have said it myself, yet I didn't wan tto take credit for something I didn't say. If I didn't credit the quote you'd probally agree with it. :)
Haha, good point. Internet forums are strange in this way. We argue about the fine points of socialism with such fiery self-rightuousness because, lets face it, we like to argue and the internet is a good place for that. This is a very sketchy topic, and while I can agree with the other camp that oppressed people need to cast off the oppression by force if necisary, can you not agree that the death of the soldiers is a tragic thing? Think about it. You have a baby born into a poor american family that watches alot of tv and doesnt think too much because they are too busy making ends meet. The child grows up watching GI Joe and Superman, and all these valiant men fighting for the american way. He grows up, goes to school, and one day some towers that hes likely never seen collapse, and all the sudden he is told that people are coming to kill him and his family. He is shit scared. but the fear doesnt quite dominate his life, it just works its way into his subconscious as a prejudice given to him by the media and his surroundings which are also fearful. From birth he is told that without college he is nothing, and he has no means of paying for it, therefore he thinks of his life as being useless. Some guy one day tells him of the oppurtunity and adventure he would gain by joining the army, and niavly he applies. They take him from his family and home, give him a half assed training, and sent to some country he's only heard of through Bushite propaganda, with the idea that he is helping the people of the country out. He goes there, is shot in the face and dies.

That is essentially the story of the average US soldier. If you can not see that it is tragic then i dont know what happened to your humanity. This tale, like all others nowadays, has ample bad guys. Did you spot them? they are the liars, decievers, propagandists, and exploitative imperialist machine. They take proletarians and smash and beat them into gears of the machine. we want to liberate the gears, not kill them.

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 12:29 AM
Hmm, no one I no of at this board is a pacifist.
I am. Im sure theres plenty more. Perhaps you like blood, gore, killing, and all that rubbish, but reasonable people dont. Id not like to see a violent proletariate but a peaceful one. Violent people meet violent ends. Do you really think you can topple american capitalism through some glorious military victory? Lets get back to reality.

Fact- The American war machine has the power to destroy every last living thing on earth in a matter of minitues at its fingertips.

Do you really want to challenge that with petty arms?

Economic defeat is the only realistic way to go about the destruction of the Capitalist Empire. I am not a fan of the destruction of American Lives, but I am deffinately a fan of the destruction of american capital. Throw a few wrenches in the gears of the machine, and destroy their wealth, not their people.

[Tekun]

Its ridiculous to fathom that a revolution, to overthrow the world's greatest evil (capitalism), would be peaceful
Socialists/Communists/Anarchists should always be allied with the working class, BUT if a minority of the working class chooses to supress the liberation of the proletariat by force, revolutionaries must react and help liberate the working class with force...or else the liberation will never be
Cappies will never give up the system, that has "blessed" them at the expense of the working class, without a fight
Therefore, only a fight will get the job done

If a socialist revolution were to happen in a country, and the imperialist armies were sent to supress the revolution, would the closet liberals in this thread reject the armed defense of the revolution by those who would benefit from a revolution, meaning the ppl?
If so, then they would be indirectly suppressing the revolution


If the world's oppressed chose to reject self-defense, we'd see a repeat of what occurred during the Holocaust
Although some conditions are different, there was very lil retaliation by those who suffered in the Holocaust
By not retaliating to an oppressor, we are digging our own grave

By not defending their sovereingty, the Iraqis are gradually diggin the grave of them and their future
But by retaliating to American aggression, they're at least giving themselves a chance
I guess these closet liberals choose to forget how the Vietnam war came to an end


I wanna see these closet liberals try to dissuade an imperialistic soldier from shooting at them on the battlefield, when the revolution comes to pass :lol:

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by EwokUtopia+May 25 2006, 01:14 AM--> (EwokUtopia @ May 25 2006, 01:14 AM)
[email protected] 25 2006, 12:34 AM
I could have said it myself, yet I didn't wan tto take credit for something I didn't say. If I didn't credit the quote you'd probally agree with it. :)
Haha, good point. Internet forums are strange in this way. We argue about the fine points of socialism with such fiery self-rightuousness because, lets face it, we like to argue and the internet is a good place for that. This is a very sketchy topic, and while I can agree with the other camp that oppressed people need to cast off the oppression by force if necisary, can you not agree that the death of the soldiers is a tragic thing? Think about it. You have a baby born into a poor american family that watches alot of tv and doesnt think too much because they are too busy making ends meet. The child grows up watching GI Joe and Superman, and all these valiant men fighting for the american way. He grows up, goes to school, and one day some towers that hes likely never seen collapse, and all the sudden he is told that people are coming to kill him and his family. He is shit scared. but the fear doesnt quite dominate his life, it just works its way into his subconscious as a prejudice given to him by the media and his surroundings which are also fearful. From birth he is told that without college he is nothing, and he has no means of paying for it, therefore he thinks of his life as being useless. Some guy one day tells him of the oppurtunity and adventure he would gain by joining the army, and niavly he applies. They take him from his family and home, give him a half assed training, and sent to some country he's only heard of through Bushite propaganda, with the idea that he is helping the people of the country out. He goes there, is shot in the face and dies.

That is essentially the story of the average US soldier. If you can not see that it is tragic then i dont know what happened to your humanity. This tale, like all others nowadays, has ample bad guys. Did you spot them? they are the liars, decievers, propagandists, and exploitative imperialist machine. They take proletarians and smash and beat them into gears of the machine. we want to liberate the gears, not kill them. [/b]
Great post. I certainly agree with that.

And I consider myself pacifist too.


And about the people who say: "One less soldier, one less imperialist", please think. The imperialists are the political persons who make the decisions, not the indoctrinated working-class people.

[Ander]

violencia.Proletariat, you seem to be the kind of person who rages on about the "working class, imperialists, capitalists, etc" online but when it comes to action, you stop.

Where is this revolution? Where is this fighting back with arms? I don't see it.

Your excuse for not attending anti-war protests is because "they are run by liberals?" PATHETIC. Sounds like a shitty excuse to justify your laziness. Go home, dude.

[backwardsbulldozer]

I also consider myself a pacifist. I am not against violence in self-defense, and I am not against violence towards people that directly cause violence and oppression for large groups of people, although the second is usually unwise because the retaliation taken is always greater than we can fight. Individual soldiers do not cause violence and oppression, because they are expendable to their leaders.
I do believe that all war is wrong once you go beyond defending yourself, and even when you are taking care of yourself, relishing it is sadistic. The biggest problem with war is that most of the people who die won't deserve it. Someone brought up World War II, so let's look at that. Hitler and the Japanese military leaders certainly deserved to die for the things that they did, as together they killed up to 60 million people. What was the result? 60% of the people to die in the war were civilians. The Allies used the most horrific weapon created on two cities, killed a million German prisoners, and firebombed two major cities. Once it was over, Hitler was never punished, no Italians were convicted of war crimes, and most of the Japanese responsible for the atrocities (that hadn't killed themselves to spare themselves the indignity of being held accountable) got off with a few years in prison. The Allies actions were completely ignored. The point is not that they should have been given more, it's that the creators of the suffering are always spared the worst of war, and if they ever are given justice, it's after it's over and meaningless.
It's naive how people think that a civilian army in Iraq is going to turn back the force of the most powerful country in the world. The U.S. has playing with one hand tied behind it's back. They haven't been using nearly all the military force they have in Iraq and still, they've devastated the country. America will not turn back until they have all Central Asia under their power, and it is willing to kill anyone in it's way. Military resistance in these countries with the hope of winning is hopeless, the only goal anyone can have is to stay alive. I think it's at the point where there is nothing any of us can do about this, violent or non-violent. I will continue to do everything I can to resist, but I realize odds are the only thing that can stop the upcoming situation is a country (or alliance) more powerful than America. I admit, non-violent resistance in this situation will likely only change things in the smallest ways, but so will violent resistance, if it even does that. I prefer the way that ends with a few less dead bodies of people I wouldn't mind talking to.
And to everyone saying people in the military need to stop taking orders and resist their officers, I would agree, but saying they deserve to die if they don't is ignorant. Try joining the army and doing that kind of thing. It's easy to say, but doing it is something that takes what a lot of people (especially ones with no political convictions, or ones different from your own) don't have.

[Ander]

The problem with this conflict in particular is that both sides are saying "I've got the bigger balls" back and forth. And it's not going to stop until one of them stops being such arrogant pricks and backs off. Sadly, I don't see either side as being more likely to do this.

With that said, cooperation between those who oppose the war is the key in this kind of situation. Join anti-war protests, it doesn't matter who runs them or who is involved. If you really care then get out there, wave your fucking sign and get your voice heard. Send letters and emails to your local government representative, send messages to the president even, if you can.

More death is not going to solve anything, what we need is action. How do you think the Vietnam War was stopped?

[backwardsbulldozer]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 01:54 PM
violencia.Proletariat, you seem to be the kind of person who rages on about the "working class, imperialists, capitalists, etc" online but when it comes to action, you stop.

Where is this revolution? Where is this fighting back with arms? I don't see it.

Your excuse for not attending anti-war protests is because "they are run by liberals?" PATHETIC. Sounds like a shitty excuse to justify your laziness. Go home, dude.
Agreed. Everyone on here speaks English, can both read and write, has internet access at least somewhere, and seems to come from first world countries, but especially the United States. If you believe in violent response to this war's imperialism, you're in the perfect place for it. The Iraqi Resistance would kill to have the opportunities you do to get their goals, so do it. You think a dead soldier equals a dead imperialist, then shoot a recruiter or two. Shit, that might even save a life instead of opening up a slot. Go kill a politician that has some say in what happens in other countries. Those of you in favor of violence are really sleeping on the job.
Or do you feel the same thing the imperialists you're so dedicated to overthrowing do towards war- it's the solution, just as long as it's not anyone you've met dying?

[Wells]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 12:29 AM

While I believe that it is the right of the Iraqi people to fight back against those who occupy their nation, I do not celebrate the deaths of anyone.

Do you see me throwing a party? I'm defending their right to defend themselves and for some reason I get called sadistic.
No, I'm defending their right to defend themselves, you're advocating the death of soldiers. In an imperialist invasion you would expectcasualties. I said that we can only imagine what these people go through. Its very naive and stupid to support in the deaths of fellow people of the working class, and to believer that bloodshed ever solves anything. You kill the imperialist, you take that place. Look at Stalin.



As for ending the occupation, why are all of you Americans not out protesting? It's easy to sit on the computer and talk about all of this, but unless you are actually doing something about it, what is the point?

I've been to anti-war protests when they have happened near me, pretty insignificant since they are run by liberals.


Your excuse for not attending anti-war protests is because "they are run by liberals?" PATHETIC. Sounds like a shitty excuse to justify your laziness. Go home, dude.

Jello picked up on this perfectly. If you are that naive to believe that then I am outraged. The workers voice comes through movement. Through peaceful means. To show how much better we are than them! The last thing the people will want is violent aggressive barbarians like you ruining the protests. You said so yourself "Yes it's very possible with wide support from the anti-imperialist movement in the imperialist country." What a contradiction! Jello's right, Go Home!


QUOTE
Look at the Spanish Civil war. The problem is when people like you infiltrate the left because you think you're helping the working class by killing them all.



You have got to be joking me, your going to lecture me on the SCW eh? First of all there was major sectarianism in the spanish civil war between stalinists and the popular front and trotyskyists and the anarchists.

Secondly, how dare you use the SCW as an example! You know what those anarchists and communists did, they executed fascists! OMG THOSE MONSTERS,

They suppressed the counterrevolutionaries, something you are morally opposed to.


No you fool! The Republican alliance was fairly strong at the begining. It was only when Stalinists and political infighting occurred that the alliance disintegrated. For a year and a half the left showed what they could do united. Think about that.

They were defending the republic, not going around executing people. Of course there were executions. It will be silly to think othertwise. That was a civil war, different circumstances, a country in struggle. In Iraq for every coalition soldier there will be more to replace. You could have hardly walked the streets of Madrid saying fascits out, the same with Baghdad. The difference is there was no country called Francoland where the peole could march on the streets. I think its not to difficult to march in Washington or London.




I'm a socialist and a pacifist.

Then don't soil the Spanish comrades names by using their revolution in your arguement. They didn't sit around and get rolled over, they fought back with arms!


I just said they fought back, they had no choice, just like the average Iraqi. However, as a pacifist I do not support war, I believe it causes death and increases problems. Has a war ever solved anything!?! It always crteates more than it answers.



and definitely not advocate it!

So you are a reformist? Revolutions are violent, thats how it happens.


I'll be blunt. Violent revolutions come back and smack you in the face, harder! Anyone heard of the Russian revolution? Its easy to turn authoritarian from a bloody revolution. I believe in peaceful revolution, and reformism could be an aspect of that. Once you start shooting then you might aswell join the other side. Defence is imperative, not attack.



They want to overthrow it constructively.

Yes and thats why I've never met a pacifist anarchist.

No, nor me. However they don't talk of killing everyone! They believe violence is needeed. Something I disagree on, but none were as bloodthursty as you!



Maybe you don't know it yet but you're heading toward that role.

Lets see, I don't fit any of that deffinition as I'm not leninist. Secondly comparing my view of the DOP to Stalin is laughable, I'm against prisons of any kind therefore making my suppression no where near the level of his. Those who shall be executed shall be those directly involved in armed struggle against the revolution and those with extreme significance and power in the pre-revolutionary society. I don't find anything unreasonable about that nor do most people here.


Whats Lenin got to do with it? It derived from Lenin thats all! "I'm against prisons of any kind therefore making my suppression no where near the level of his." But you still believe in suppression! What this then? Half torture a man? :rolleyes: Executions! WTF? This is Facism and stalinism. We are here to give the worker concioussness, not kill them just because they haven't been exposed to the facts!




What do you mean by "imperialists should get what’s coming to them."?

If they are sacrificing the working class and exploiting them for personal gain they shall be suppressed until they cannot possibly do this anymore.


They will NOT have the opportunity to exploit in socialism. So if the institutions are in place with the correct peoples law enforcement to protect the people, then the capitalists won't be able to do much anyway. There will not need to be suppressed.




To overthrow capitalism in your eyes is to kill all the workers so capitalism can't exist anymore

Can you please make up more shit. NOTHING I HAVE SAID IN THIS THREAD EVEN POINTS TO A DAFT IDEA. If you must resort to this I am not going to continue to argue with a brick wall.

Thats all you do I guess, argue with brick walls. Your arguement sucks. So yea please go away.


QUOTE
An American soldier is not an imperialist.

If they do not activley resist their duty to the best of their ability than they are loyal to imperialists.[/QUOTE]

Why would they resist. They are conformists, not Imperialists. If you dont see any difference then you are ignorant, and you should join them.



QUOTE]Who do you think serves in the army?

Right now we have had an upsurge of the "military families" but other than that proles. Thats not what I ment with that statement anyways you idiot. No significant percentage of the proletariat is in the army.[/QUOTE]

WTF? Make sense! I said that the whole of the proletariat is obviously not within the army. The lower ranks are obviously made up of them. Or do they clone themselves???




Not all the working class serves in the army, but whether it is with a gun or a pen they are part of the capitalist system.

Completely un-comparable. Working a job out of necessity is in no way equal to volunteering to take part in imperialist conquest and doing the dirty work.


FFS! They are all the dirty work of the capitalist and imperialist system. Wheather it is working for Tesco or in the American army. They have all been indocrinated. They all kill people, indirectly or directly. Lets stop blaming them and help them!



Yes, your kind, not true anarchists. Me a racist, you have no idea who I am! Don't ever call me a racist. Revolutionary lefts having your views, hah. I know far too many who talk of peace not violence. You started the divide. I merely mentioned the term Stalinist cause it stank of it. You blatantly called me a liberal.

Hmm, no one I no of at this board is a pacifist. There may be a few with a soft spot for it. I want peace as much as everyone else but we can't have peace with capitalists in power. You have provided no realistic alternative to get them out of power and succesfully keep them out.

Me, Ewokutopia, Jello and others; PACIFISTS! You oust the capitalists with the people's movement, through PEACEFUL means. Once you have the change to socialism through peaceful democratic and union movements (Ever heard of these?) then you instigate the institutions and make sure the capitalists have not the means to gain power. The majority of people will not want to, they will be for the revolution. You do not suppress the people.

You sound like a Nihlist I know, not an an anarchist. Tell you what, maybe we should communicate our views personally. You don't happen to live in the Uk do you? Because we are taking up space on a debating forum with insults. Maybe Msn?

[EwokUtopia]

For all the war hawks out there, I some simple questions:
Do you have the ability, or know any proletarians with the ability to destroy an M1A1 Abrams Tank, or shoot a Stealth Bomber from the sky?
Do you know anyone who has the ability to fight the US war machine in any other way than killing a few simple grunts from the backwaters of America?
Do you think killing a few thousand of those grunts hinders US imperialism in any significant way?
Can you survive a nuclear holocaust?

Face facts, the world has changed. This isnt the industrial revolution anymore, you cant topple a superpower through military force. China could not defeat America and claim victory, indeed, I can think of few things that are more frightening and terminal than a Sino-American war, so let us hope that doesnt happen.

All of this undefeatible prowess comes at a hefty price though, fuck their economy up and they will not be able to maintian their power. They will still have old nukes, so that must be targetted first. But the destruction of American property in Iraq is far safer and far more effective than killing its grunts. Destroying a pipeline and spilling their prescious oil all over the Iraqi sands is a victory. Refusing to work for American corporations and boycotting their products is a victory. The failure of the occupation to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people is a victory. Shooting a US soldier is not. It leads to harder clampdowns than the Iraqi people have the ability to fight against. No revolution of the proletariate can withstand the full might of the US military (though its full might is suicidal, i wouldnt put it past bush to use it if he gets cornered). That must be remembered. Stop living in 1917, welcome to 2006, we need new strategies for new situations.

[redstar2000]

Is it inevitable that the pacifist delusion "always" shows up in periods like ours? I guess it must be; I certainly heard plenty of that nonsense back in the 60s.

Pissing and moaning over the fates of imperialist soldiers? Overthrowing the most violent ruling class in history by "peaceful means"? One can only wonder what such people are thinking of...or what planet they come from. :lol:

This is not necessarily to suggest that massive revolutions are "always bloodbaths"...though civil wars usually are. The Bolshevik coup was almost completely bloodless; the Russian civil war may have resulted in 15 million deaths...mostly from malnutrition and disease.

At the core of pacifism is the conviction of "moral superiority"...we "are" and "must be" morally superior to our reactionary opponents. Moreover, this is "more important" than winning.

Attached to this is the notion that "every human life is sacred" -- even the lives of those who want to kill us. Somehow, it's supposed to be "better" to die and remain "morally superior" than to win by killing our declared enemies.

No one without severe psychological problems "looks forward" to widespread bloodshed; historically, it has been reactionary political formations that have embraced mass murder with genuine enthusiasm. Even if we tried, it would be very difficult for us to be "as bad as them". Say whatever bad things you like about Stalin, there's really no comparison between the Russian conduct of World War II and that of either the Germans or the Japanese...or, for that matter, the deeds of the British and the Americans.

Speaking personally, I do "feel good" about the deaths of imperialist soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq...because I'm certain that such is the only way the imperialists will be convinced to give up and leave.

Bush, Blair, Howard, et.al., are not "men of good will" who can be swayed by an "appeal to conscience". The evidence of their behavior demonstrates a willingness to resort to torture and murder on a massive scale in pursuit of their imperial ambitions. It is clear that only massive casualties and the consequent rise of massive domestic opposition to these wars is likely to have any effect on their views or the views of the ruling classes who appointed them.
Indeed, when you get right down to it, that's the fundamental weakness of pacifism as a "philosophy" -- it assumes, without justification, a "common moral ground" between us and them...when, in fact, torture and murder are perfectly "ok" with them. Their only regret is when they get caught at it and publicly embarrassed...and I doubt if even that bothers them all that much as long as they can stay out of the dock at the International War Crimes Tribunal.

It's "easy" to be "morally superior" to our enemies...it just doesn't accomplish very much. :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[EwokUtopia]

Ok. you have made your point, and now all I ask is for you to elaborate. What is your strategy on militarily conquering the most dreadful superpower the Earth has ever known? And how do you think the revolutionaries will deal with those pesky stealth bombers and ICBM's?

[violencia.Proletariat]

The problem with this conflict in particular is that both sides are saying "I've got the bigger balls" back and forth.

Actually thats not what it's about at all. One side does not wish to defend the proletarian class by force if necessary, one does. It's obvious to see the logical decision.


More death is not going to solve anything, what we need is action. How do you think the Vietnam War was stopped?

How do I think vietnam was stopped, I think that the resistance movements in BOTH places were strong. Had the US been casualty free than no one would have really even noticed we where there slaughtering people.


Through peaceful means. To show how much better we are than them!

What are earth are you talking about? This isn't a damn subjective contest, it's not about showing that you are better than anyone it's about acting in your class interests. I'd like you to find one radical revolutionary situation where violence was denounced on a mass scale.


The last thing the people will want is violent aggressive barbarians like you ruining the protests.

Thats right fucker, we are barbarians because we believe in self defense. Ruining your "peace vigils", would you let the cops who bust you over the head get away without a punch too :lol:


They were defending the republic

The popular front was defending the republic, the anarchists were making revolution.


That was a civil war, different circumstances, a country in struggle. In Iraq for every coalition soldier there will be more to replace.

No there won't be. The US army is not meeting its quotas anymore, no one wants to fight their shitty wars.


You could have hardly walked the streets of Madrid saying fascits out

Thats exactly what you want is it not, your a pacifist correct?


they had no choice

And you think the Iraqis do? ARE YOU THAT FUCKING STUPID?


Has a war ever solved anything!?!

No capitalist war. Class war solves things.


Anyone heard of the Russian revolution? Its easy to turn authoritarian from a bloody revolution.

Lenin was authoritarian from the start, remember the vanguard?


I believe in peaceful revolution

Impossible. The bourgeoisie will not give up their power peacefully.


However they don't talk of killing everyone!

And I do, your arguement is getting really shitty. You are making things up now.


This is Facism and stalinism.

No, it's not. You don't like what I propose (which you aren't even reading but making things up) so you call it tainted words in order to sound better than me.


They will NOT have the opportunity to exploit in socialism.

You will not enforce these decisions with force, there is nothing stopping them.


then the capitalists won't be able to do much anyway. There will not need to be suppressed.

Here's the situation, you want this revolution in which you will not suppress the bourgeois class. So lets say you could supposedly get everyone to ignore the government (since you will not destroy the state because that involves violence). Then you expect the capitalists whom are fully armed to leave you alone? :lol:


Why would they resist. They are conformists, not Imperialists. If you dont see any difference then you are ignorant, and you should join them.

Conscript armies are not the same as volunteer armies you fucking dumbass. The draft means even if you don't want to go you still go. THATS WHY THEY WOULD RESIST.


They have all been indocrinated.

You are fucking self righteous. You must "liberate" all these indoctrinated people eh? Guess what idiot, the working class is not a brainwashed robot. Lots of working people hate their bosses, cops, politicians, this means they aren't indoctrinated on any mass scale, if they were they would except this with no question.


Me, Ewokutopia, Jello and others; PACIFISTS!

And you are insignificant, the majority of this board sees violence as a tool.


Once you have the change to socialism through peaceful democratic and union movements (Ever heard of these?) then you instigate the institutions and make sure the capitalists have not the means to gain power. The majority of people will not want to, they will be for the revolution. You do not suppress the people.

Now that you have your idealist nonsense out of the way, back to reality.

1. You can not have a peaceful revolution.
2. Union movements are inherently violent as company thugs and police are sent in to crush striking workers. But you don't want them fighting back now do you.
3. Reformism doesn't work but thats another debate
4. You can't make a peoples law that capitalists can't do things and then not enforce it and expect them to follow

[redstar2000]

Your question is not at all a clear one. Are you referring to the Afghans, the Iraqis, us???

The Afghans and the Iraqis should "stay the course"...make it impossible for the imperialists to "do business" in their countries by killing as many westerners as they can.

What we have to figure out is how to encourage people in our own country to resist "lawful authority" in the most vigorous and tumultuous fashion possible. Granted, that is terribly difficult at the present moment; but it may get easier as the casualties mount. People in the "west" are not comfortable at all with the deaths of their sons...in fact, we don't much like the whole idea of death at all except for dark-skinned people in distant lands.

The anti-recruitment projects in a number of U.S. cities are a good start...even though they are largely organized by pacifists. Instead of appealing to morality, they ought to appeal bluntly to naked self-interest: do you want to put your life on the line to defend a gang of rich motherfuckers?

Something like that would do a lot more to begin the process of raising revolutionary class consciousness than "milk and water" sentiments about the "immorality of war".

But that's the "thing" about pacifism; it's really not about revolutionary class consciousness at all. It's a "moral appeal" to our rulers to "act morally"...which is ludicrous.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[EwokUtopia]

None of you are being realistic. And none of you have acknowledged the imperialist machine as being as powerful as it is. What you are proposing (direct physical action) is attacking the machine where its armour is the hardest. You need to get under its economic belly and throw a few wrenches in its gears. Anything else is futile, and I for one do not wish to become a martyr in face of this horrible machine, but rather I want to be involved in the failure of the machine from within.


This is NOT 1917. America is not a third rate power. America will not simply wilt in face of an armed revolution. Even if it is successful, is the revolution worth the lives of millions, perhaps billions of proletarians? I think not, not when there are still more peaceful means of destroying the power availible. Resistance does not nessisarily mean with guns, the best form of resisting the machine is not being a aprt if the machine, do you really think that the bourgeois can run it without the compliance of the proletariate? Any other way of attacking imperialist capitalism is folly, you ignore the strength of the machine.

[Ander]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 04:57 PM

The problem with this conflict in particular is that both sides are saying "I've got the bigger balls" back and forth.

Actually thats not what it's about at all. One side does not wish to defend the proletarian class by force if necessary, one does. It's obvious to see the logical decision.

I'm not talking about the argument between you and me, I'm talking about the War on Terror.

And what happened to answering my other post? No answer?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Jello+May 25 2006, 04:22 PM--> (Jello @ May 25 2006, 04:22 PM)
[email protected] 25 2006, 04:57 PM

The problem with this conflict in particular is that both sides are saying "I've got the bigger balls" back and forth.

Actually thats not what it's about at all. One side does not wish to defend the proletarian class by force if necessary, one does. It's obvious to see the logical decision.

I'm not talking about the argument between you and me, I'm talking about the War on Terror.

And what happened to answering my other post? No answer? [/b]
Everything you proposed is reformist and does not deserve a response. The only kind of worth while protest right now is one that will get attention, and those that get attention aren't "peace vigils." We do not have the mass numbers to make peaceful protest effective, and even if we did the may day events this year show us it doesn't matter.

I think I'm through with this thread unless you guys bring up a better way to argue your point, it's getting stale.

[Ander]

Does not deserve a response? Typical. You've got a big mouth but you can't back it up. Nicely done, jackass.

We all heard about the effects of the May Day boycotts, imagine more of those? Once doesn't do shit, obviously. Constant protests will make somebody listen.

I would rather be a reformist than someone who gives up as easily as you do.

[Tekun]

Pacifists...how did the Vietnam War finally end??
Did the peaceful protestors influence Nixon or Kissinger, or did the fact that thousands of Americans were being picked off do the trick?

Only through resistance will the imperialist stop its mission, and if they're gonna use weapons against us, the only way we can effectively defend the revolution is with arms

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 06:19 PM




Does not deserve a response? Typical. You've got a big mouth but you can't back it up. Nicely done, jackass.

So far I have backed up the necessity for violence. You have put up a shitty moral arguement and no reason for how peaceful revolution is realisticy possible.


Constant protests will make somebody listen.

Depends on what the protestors are doing.


I would rather be a reformist than someone who gives up as easily as you do.

...gives up argueing with people who aren't going to change their minds, well yeah I'm obviously not going to argue to a wall. I and others have made our points in this thread.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 10:30 PM
Pacifists...how did the Vietnam War finally end??
Did the peaceful protestors influence Nixon or Kissinger, or did the fact that thousands of Americans were being picked off do the trick?
Actually, come to think of it, our history books teach us that it was the "popular resistance"(students protesting in neat lines coordinated by the pigs, and only sitting there and crying when they were being shot at, more likely :rolleyes: ) that was instrumental in ending the Vietnam War. Even out of a war of conquest that they lost, the bourgeoisie still tries to make a victory by instilling in the minds of all the idea that revolutionary change is undesirable.

[EwokUtopia]

Ok, so suppose a bloody revolution breaks out, and you take part in it. The Bourgeois send some helocopters and tanks after you and surround you. What do you do? do you have the power to take down their tanks or planes? no. I for one do not want to be ripped apart by them for a failed revolution, we are living in such times as to make mistakes (like armed revolts which would be easily quashed) must not be made. Economic defeat is the only conceivable way of taking down the American Empire.

For those who disagree, would you please detail how you would detail with tanks and planes and nuclear bombs and other such hazards, because if you want an armed revolt that threatens the existance of the American Empire, you will have to deal with all of these before the end of it.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Ok, so suppose a bloody revolution breaks out, and you take part in it. The Bourgeois send some helocopters and tanks after you and surround you. What do you do?

Shoot them down. One of the first priorities in the revolution should be to occupy military bases and confiscate and distribute the weapons.


I for one do not want to be ripped apart by them for a failed revolution

They would still shoot you in this supposed "peaceful revolution" except you would ALL die since you can't fight back.


we are living in such times as to make mistakes (like armed revolts which would be easily quashed) must not be made.

Yes because we proposed to do this all next tuesday, :rolleyes: . This is years in the future.


Economic defeat is the only conceivable way of taking down the American Empire.

And how do you defeat America economically? By making it unsafe for their imperialism in those foreign countries. How do you do this? By shooting them!


For those who disagree, would you please detail how you would detail with tanks and planes and nuclear bombs and other such hazards

Nuclear bombs, oh please. Blowing up your means of production is not a good investment and would be self-defeat for the bourgeoisie.

Tanks and planes? We will confiscate most of them.

[EwokUtopia]

then why are you sitting around on a computer? go steal those tanks! for the revolution!


Does this seem a tad unrealistic to anybody else? look at Iraq for example....not many planes, and only a few helocopters have been shot down, and they are more armed than any revolutionary group in America. If you want to take down imperialism, thats great, but you have to stay in the real world to do it. You dont simply waltz in and steal some tanks, its a bit harder than simple confiscation.

[violencia.Proletariat]

then why are you sitting around on a computer? go steal those tanks! for the revolution!

And likewise I could tell you to go out on the streets and lie in front of a cop car! Go get 200,000,000 to to march on washington and ask them to stop with the whole "capitalist" thing. :lol:


Does this seem a tad unrealistic to anybody else? look at Iraq for example....not many planes, and only a few helocopters have been shot down

So...does the US control Iraq freely? No. And the resistance isn't perpetuated by large majorities of the proletariat there. Not bad for a few "terrorists" eh?


and they are more armed than any revolutionary group in America

Armed revolutionary groups in America? Not yet.


You dont simply waltz in and steal some tanks, its a bit harder than simple confiscation.

Your right. We must attack and suppress the former ruling class so they cannot make these military decisions. We must smash their ruling institutions so they can no longer function. We must rid ourselves of their police force by any means necessary. We must socially destroy their concepts so they can never rule us again with their bourgeois logic. Then we can kick back and have a few cold ones :P

[Janus]

I have to admit that this is quite terrible and simply shouldn't be tolerated.

But check this out
My Webpage (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5020804.stm)

It seems that some militants shot two people for wearing shorts.

[Tekun]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 05:47 PM
Ok, so suppose a bloody revolution breaks out, and you take part in it. The Bourgeois send some helocopters and tanks after you and surround you. What do you do? do you have the power to take down their tanks or planes? no. I for one do not want to be ripped apart by them for a failed revolution, we are living in such times as to make mistakes (like armed revolts which would be easily quashed) must not be made. Economic defeat is the only conceivable way of taking down the American Empire.

For those who disagree, would you please detail how you would detail with tanks and planes and nuclear bombs and other such hazards, because if you want an armed revolt that threatens the existance of the American Empire, you will have to deal with all of these before the end of it.
Like Violencia said, u fight back
IMO, its impossible to defeat the greatest military in the world (US) in an all out battle, between two armies
But, as Vietnam and the Soviet Afghan war showed, guerilla warfare is a successful strategy against overwhelming odds
Its the only way...be it in a jungle or in an urban setting
A tank cannot travel through the jungle, a plane cannot see through a jungle
Likewise, IED's show us that tanks or heavily armed military vehicles are vulnerable to sudden and strategic attacks, in an urban setting
Plus, planes are only effective in open terrain, and they're weakness is obvious surface to air missiles
So....the notion that they'd be able to surround us with their tanks and planes is rather remote
Were the Vietnamese ever surrounded? Has the US ever surrounded the entire Iraqi resistance?

Economic defeat is a possible road, but u need some class consciousness in order to succeed
But lets say that you economically defeat the capitalists in some country, and transform the gov into a socialist gov
The US has shown in the past that they'll do just about anything to stop such a "revolution"
They'd be willing to come into the country, suppress the revolution with their military, overthrow or kill u and your supporters, and give the country back to the wealthy
Therez an abundance of examples: Iran 53, Guatemala 54, Chile 73, Grenada 83.....
The "revolution" in these countries was shortlived because the gov failed to defend themselves against US agression
So even if u economically defeat them, they're gonna come at u with all they got, and if you fail to defend yourself and the revolution, you'll be just as dead
Thus, in the end everything comes down to armed resistance

However, as the Vietnamese showed us, they were willing to die to unify Vietnam under socialism (although if failed miserable, much to our chagrin), and they succeeded despite years of war against the greatest military in the history of the world



Im rather perplexed by your entire stance on this issue and your obvious admiration for el Subcomandante Marcos, a Zapatista if you didn't know

Emiliano Zapata, the man for whom Marcos' indigenous movement is named after, once said: Es mejor morir de pie que vivir de rodillas which means, it is better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees
Think about that

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Matthijs+May 25 2006, 11:07 PM--> (Matthijs @ May 25 2006, 11:07 PM)
[email protected] 25 2006, 10:30 PM
Pacifists...how did the Vietnam War finally end??
Did the peaceful protestors influence Nixon or Kissinger, or did the fact that thousands of Americans were being picked off do the trick?
Actually, come to think of it, our history books teach us that it was the "popular resistance"(students protesting in neat lines coordinated by the pigs, and only sitting there and crying when they were being shot at, more likely :rolleyes: ) that was instrumental in ending the Vietnam War. Even out of a war of conquest that they lost, the bourgeoisie still tries to make a victory by instilling in the minds of all the idea that revolutionary change is undesirable. [/b]
Yes, and they were protesting because people were dying at an absurd rate, if the Viet Minh and the NVA had simply rolled over and engaged in "peaceful resistance" or some other similar bullshit, the US army would have conquered Vietnam and turned it into a client state. Violence is necessary. The Iraqui people are resisting a military occupation. The only way to end a military occupation is by fighting back.

[Janus]

It seems that coalition troops are now required to have extra training in moral and ethical values. This includes every soldier, sailor, and airman. This so called response and subsequent "investigation" still do not mitigate the effects of this tragedy at all.

Rumsfeld backs Iraq marine probes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5042036.stm)

[Janus]

It looks like the Haditha incident may not have been the only one.


Originally posted by AP
seven Marines and a Navy corpsman could face murder, kidnapping and conspiracy charges as early as Friday in the April shooting death of an Iraqi man in yet another incident, a defense attorney said Thursday

and


"It looks like the killing of Iraqi civilians is becoming a daily phenomenon," the chairman of the Iraqi Human Rights Association, Muayed al-Anbaki, said Friday after video ran on television of children and adults slain in a raid in March on the Iraqi village of Ishaqi north of Baghdad.

Furor grows over civilian deaths in Iraq (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060602/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_civilians_killed;_ylt=Alj8tSr7EFOhCjwxr_8MY59 vaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--)

[Guerrilla22]

Now invesitgations into several similar incidents are happening, meanwhile the reactionary media is up in arms over this.