Nationalism

[redflag32]

Ive noticed allot of criticisism of nationalism on this forum so i just wanted to throw a question to the people who would be most against nationalism.

Do you see a difference in the nationalism of an oppressed country and the nationalism of a supremist or imperialist country?Do you recognize the difference in the nationalism of lets say, the national front and the tories to the nationalism of Wolfe tone or the united Irishmen? or even the nationalism of any suppressed people?

If you do see a difference do you think the response to them both should be the same or different?

[The Grey Blur]

There is anti-imperialism and there is national chauvanism - the difference is obvious and the support is seperate


the nationalism of Wolfe tone or the united Irishmen
That was progressive beurgeois nationalism, in the romantic vein of the US & French revolutions

It failed because it lacked the support of the lower classes

[Enragé]

i think we should support struggles for national liberation since they are a step towards freedom, self-determination, which in itself is a step towards communism. In the anarchist frame of mind you could say its a step towards decentralization as well

the Citizen Army was a good organisation...gah...i forgot the name of the dude that founded it...the one who was shot in a chair

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 07:05 PM
i think we should support struggles for national liberation since they are a step towards freedom, self-determination, which in itself is a step towards communism. In the anarchist frame of mind you could say its a step towards decentralization as well

the Citizen Army was a good organisation...gah...i forgot the name of the dude that founded it...the one who was shot in a chair
James Connolly.

But yeah - the nationalism of British, American and any other imperialist power... bad. Irish and Palestinian nationalism etc. etc... better.

[bolshevik butcher]

I wouldnt say it was a question ebtween good or bad natioanlism. I would say that natioanlism in itself as bad. However a national liberation struggle, such as that fought by conolly is good. An oppressed people fighting imperialism in itself is not necessarlly nationlaist.

[redflag32]

Some great replies there comrades,i didnt want to start the whole "should we support all self determination struggles" again,i was just looking for peoples general views on nationalism and the different strands of it,as an "Irish" socialist republican i identify with progressive nationalism but i am firstly an internationalist,i do see a difference in progressive forms of nationalism and reactionary forms though and i was wondering what the feeling was on the board.Would i be right to assume that the hardline condemnation of all forms of nationalism is coming from anarchists?It is in Ireland,i was wondering what is it in anarchism that makes them turn away from progressive nationalism or even to see a difference in the forms of nationalism.

(Obviously im not saying all anarchists think this way,im just relaying what ive come across allot from anarchosts in Ireland.)

Oh and for the person who forgot the name of James Connolly...see avatar :D

[FinnMacCool]

I honestly don't have a problem with nationalism, when nationalism means "love of country" I can look out the window and think "What a beautiful land! I will never let anyone destroy this land, or its culture or people" That type of thinking is not reactionary. It is only reactionary when people are like, "I love this country. Lets make sure everyone else likes it too!"

[apathy maybe]

Having a love of a land or culture is not the same as nationalism. Nationalism is thinking that your land and culture are the best.

Nationalism is and the love of a state is bad. As leftists we should fight to get rid of the idea that some places are better then others and that some cultures are better then others. (Except where the culture is reactionary, racist or otherwise crap.)

[Zero]

As long as people see the GREATER nationalism: Humanitarianism, I have no problem with people loving their country. Just don't fucking overdo it.

[Wells]

A country that has been oppressed by larger or more dominant countries may be forced into a nationalistic view. i.e To gain the attitude that there is a them or us mentality. This often happens when to countries effected by imperialism, e.g Ireland. However, it is quite easy to understand that nationalistic movements within the oppressed countries would change peoples attitudes to a nationalistic ideology. Thats not to say the workers movement could not also thrive in such conditions. It depends on which ideology has the upper hand and greatest following in times of such oppression.

[Wells]

A country that has been oppressed by larger or more dominant countries may be forced into a nationalistic view. i.e To gain the attitude that there is a them or us mentality. This often happens when to countries effected by imperialism, e.g Ireland. However, it is quite easy to understand that nationalistic movements within the oppressed countries would change peoples attitudes to a nationalistic ideology. Thats not to say the workers movement could not also thrive in such conditions. It depends on which ideology has the upper hand and greatest following in times of such oppression.

[RedAnarchist]

I can support nationalism when it is the nationalism of an oppressed country or people, such as the Irish, Basques and Palestinians. I cannot support nationalism when it is the xenophobic, jingoistic nationalism of imperialist nations such as Britain and America.

[Angry Young Man]

I think that, when world revolution comes, nations will play an important part. Anyway, if each man governs himself, then to avoid disagreements there will have to be small communitites, sort of like industrial hippy communes, only not excluding the possibility of travel.
I think it would work better if there were a group of friendly autonomous city-states instead of one country, the head, and if such a thing happens as a one-country world, is inevitable that one country will take lead and impose its culture no the rest, like what happened in the USSR, and now look, they're full of mafia-run right wing bloody nationalists! :angry:

[The Living Red]

Yeah, i agree nationalism is often the 'lesser of two evils' up against imperialism.

But what do you think of nationlism from socialist nations such as Cuba, North Korea etc. (and please don't start a debate about whether those countries are socialist or not...you know what i mean.) Is this right? Or is it a threat to the true aims of revolution?

[drain.you]

There is anti-imperialism and there is national chauvanism - the difference is obvious and the support is seperate
I very much agree with that. One thing is standing against imperialists exploiting people but its totally another thing to think that these are YOUR people and that the imperialists should get out of YOUR country.
Its not about countries, an exploited or suppressed human should fight for freedom regardless of where they live, their ethnicity, their age, their gender, etc.
How can you be proud of a piece of land that "your" people own. How can you own land anyway? I think its very important to keep struggles against the cappies away from feelings of nationalism or racism or whatever.

Nationalism leads to hate of other countries, to hate of other ethnicities and other cultures. That is wrong. We all live on this earth together, we are all animals that happen to be alive, we do not have divine rights to a piece of land, we do not belong to a piece of land. nationalism sucks.

What I hate to see, and we will be seeing soon, is nationalism and football combining. The World Cup is fun but people take it way too seriously, they riot over nothing. They beat up people because they belong to the ethnicity of whoever just beat them in a game of footie. Its disgusting.

Racism is one of the most shallow and horrible type of discrimination.

[Candi]

National chauvinism is just the usual bigoted crap with people trying to find an excuse to say that they're worth more than others. Anti-imperialism is ok, but it's dangerous. It can easily turn more serious, like starting off with "free us from the british" and ending up with "fuck the brits", or when people get spat at for being israeli in other countries (it happens). And you'll always get some fascist coming along trying to twist anti imperialism into racism and patriotism.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:32 PM
"fuck the brits",
Fuck The British Bastards! ;)

[redflag32]

I have to say i agree with nearly every post here,i agree there are "dangers" when it comes to nationalism but i also think it can be a good thing,there is nothing wrong with liking or being proud of your culture,as long as it doeant mean you hate another.i tink it wouldnt take long for us to do a list of "healthy" nationalist countries and "un-healthy" ones in the world.Im happy to see that we as socialists dont slate everyone who is proud of there country as anti-revolutionary :D

[Wells]

Of course, the thing to remember is that nations and countries are just boundries used by the bourgeoise to divide the working class of all nations. Nationalism and patriotism are petty things, we must remember that we are all one class against the owning class in whatever country you live in.

[redflag32]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 09:58 PM
Of course, the thing to remember is that nations and countries are just boundries used by the bourgeoise to divide the working class of all nations. Nationalism and patriotism are petty things, we must remember that we are all one class against the owning class in whatever country you live in.
Well said....