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RebelDog
17th May 2006, 08:10
I'm sure this will provoke great debate. Didn't quite know where to post it, here or science forum, I think it belongs here. From the new scientist;



Free will - you only think you have it


"WE MUST believe in free will, we have no choice," the novelist Isaac Bashevis Singer once said. He might as well have said, "We must believe in quantum mechanics, we have no choice," if two new studies are anything to go by.

Early last month, a Nobel laureate physicist finished polishing up his theory that a deeper, deterministic reality underlies the apparent uncertainty of quantum mechanics. A week after he announced it, two eminent mathematicians showed that the theory has profound implications beyond physics: abandoning the uncertainty of quantum physics means we must give up the cherished notion that we have free will. The mathematicians believe the physicist is wrong.
“Abandoning the uncertainty of quantum physics means we must give up the cherished notion that we have free will”

"It's striking that we have one of the greatest scientists of our generation pitted against two of the world's greatest mathematicians," says Hans Halvorson, a philosopher of physics at Princeton University.

Quantum mechanics is widely accepted by physicists, but is full of apparent paradoxes, which made Einstein deeply uncomfortable and have never been resolved. For instance, you cannot ask what the spin of a particle was before you made an observation of it - quantum mechanics says the spin was undetermined. And you cannot predict the outcome of an experiment; you can only estimate the probability of getting a certain result.

"Quantum mechanics works wonderfully well, but it's not complete," says Gerard 't Hooft of Utrecht University in the Netherlands, who won the Nobel prize for physics in 1999 for laying the mathematical foundations for the standard model of particle physics. One major reason why many physicists, including 't Hooft, yearn for a deeper view of reality than quantum mechanics can offer is their failure so far to unite quantum theory with general relativity and its description of gravity, despite enormous effort. "A radical change is needed," says 't Hooft.

For more than a decade now, 't Hooft has been working on the idea that there is a hidden layer of reality at scales smaller than the so-called Planck length of 10-35 metres. 't Hooft has developed a mathematical model to support this notion. At this deeper level, he says, we cannot talk of particles or waves to describe reality, so he defines entities called "states" that have energy. In his model, these states behave predictably according to deterministic laws, so it is theoretically possible to keep tabs on them.

However, the calculations show that individual states can be tracked for only about 10-43 seconds, after which many states coalesce into one final state, which is what creates the quantum mechanical uncertainty. Our measurements illuminate these final states, but because the prior information is lost, we can't recreate their precise history.

While 't Hooft's initial theory explained most quantum mechanical oddities, such as the impossibility of precisely measuring both the location and momentum of a particle, it had a major stumbling block - the states could end up with negative energy, which is physically impossible. Now, 't Hooft has worked out a solution that overcomes this problem, preventing the states from having negative energy (www.arxiv.org/quant-ph/0604008). "It was an obnoxious difficulty," he says. "But having solved it I am more and more convinced that this is the right approach."

Essentially, 't Hooft is saying that while particles in quantum mechanics seem to behave unpredictably, if we could track the underlyi
ng states, we can predict the behaviour of particles.

Others are impressed. "This is a very beautiful theory that tells us about the world on the smallest scales," says physicist Willem de Muynck at Eindhoven University of Technology in the Netherlands. "But these are scales that current experiments cannot reach, so if anything the theory is before its time."

As enticing as 't Hooft's theory may be to physicists, it has an unexpected and potentially frightful consequence for the rest of us. Mathematicians John Conway and Simon Kochen, both at Princeton University, say that any deterministic theory underlying quantum mechanics robs us of our free will.

"When you choose to eat the chocolate cake or the plain one, are you really free to decide?" asks Conway. In other words, could someone who has been tracking all the particle interactions in the universe predict with perfect accuracy the cake you will pick? The answer, it seems, depends on whether quantum mechanics' inherent uncertainty is the correct description of reality or 't Hooft is right in saying that beneath that uncertainty there is a deterministic order.

Conway and Kochen explored the implications of 't Hooft's theory by looking at what happens when you measure the spin of a particle. Spin is always measured along three perpendicular axes. For a spherical particle, the particular axes that you choose and the order in which you carry out the measurements are up to you. But are your choices a matter of free will, or are they predetermined?

What the mathematicians proved is this: if you have the slightest freedom to choose the axes and order of measurement, then particles everywhere must also have the same degree of freedom. That means they can behave unpredictably. However, if particles have no freedom, as implied by 't Hooft's theory, the mathematicians proved that you have no real say in the choice of axes and order of measurement. In other words, deterministic particles put an end to free will (www.arxiv.org/quant-ph/0604079).

Arguments about free will are as old as philosophy itself, and ever since quantum mechanics was proposed people have attempted to connect free will to the indeterminacy at the heart of this theory. "We're proud because this is the first solid proof relating these issues," says Conway.

Kochen and Conway stress that their theorem doesn't disprove 't Hooft's theory. It simply states that if his theory is true, our actions cannot be free. And they admit that there's no way for us to tell. "Our lives could be like the second showing of a movie - all actions play out as though they are free, but that freedom is an illusion," says Kochen.
“Our lives would be like the second showing of a movie, playing out as though we are free, but freedom is an illusion”

Since the mathematicians believe that we have free will, it follows for them that 't Hooft's theory must be wrong. "We have to believe in free will to do anything," says Conway. "I believe I am free to drink this cup of coffee, or throw it across the room. I believe I am free in choosing to have this conversation."

Halvorson says the debate really boils down to a matter of personal taste. "Kochen and Conway can't tolerate the idea that our future may already be settled," he says, "but people like 't Hooft and Einstein find the notion that the universe can't be completely described by physics just as disturbing."

For philosophers, both arguments can be troubling. "Quantum randomness as the basis of free will doesn't really give us control over our actions," says Tim Maudlin, a philosopher of physics at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey. "We're either deterministic machines, or we're random machines. That's not much of a choice."

Halvorson, however, welcomes the work by 't Hooft, Conway and Kochen. "Philosophy has separated itself from science for far too long," he says. "There are very important questions to be asked about free will, and maybe physics can answer them."

From issue 2550 of New Scientist magazine, 04 May 2006, page 8

apathy maybe
17th May 2006, 11:50
The first thing I thought of when I saw the title was yes, but only if randomness exists (and quantum mechanics).

If randomness does not really exist, then everything we do is governed by natural laws. It has been determined since the start of the universe. (Run a computer program with no input except at the start, and no random factors. Same input will produce same output. Now run a similar program that randomly changes things in each step. Same input, almost certainly different output.) However, if randomness does exist, that means that things are deterministic.

But besides, it appears we have free will, we may as well assume we do. (Thinking about it is 'mental masturbation', it can be fun, but ultimately produces nothing.)

ÑóẊîöʼn
17th May 2006, 12:19
Free will is an illusion. Quantum uncertainty is meaningless on the macro level since it all "cancels out". If quantum uncertainty meant anything on the macro level, all sorts of weirdness would happen.

The universe is deterministic, but due to vast complexity of the universe that determinism is not predictable.

RebelDog
17th May 2006, 19:30
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 11:19 AM

The universe is deterministic, but due to vast complexity of the universe that determinism is not predictable.
It doesn't matter how complex any system is, if its deterministic, then its ultimatley predictable.

RevolverNo9
17th May 2006, 20:12
Of course we have no free will, Tim Mauldin put it well: 'We're either deterministic machines, or we're random machines.' Our actions are no different to the chemical and physical reactions that scientists have been observing for many years.


But besides, it appears we have free will, we may as well assume we do. (Thinking about it is 'mental masturbation', it can be fun, but ultimately produces nothing.)

Not true - a realisation of the deterministic dynamics that drive human action, at both the social and the physical level, must have profound effect on the formation of the rational, ethical conventions that future society will adopt.

drain.you
17th May 2006, 20:51
I have great incline to say that there is no free will. everything has a course it will follow and nothing can change it.
if you make a decision then it was meant to be that way, regardless of anything, you would have decided the same, whether or not what you decide happens is also governed by something we cant understand but it WILL happen.
Theres no real logic to back my belief here. I just think everything happens for a reason, guess it allows me to get through life and be able to shrug off bad things to an extent.
I do believe that all bad things that happens to us add to our characters. I find it awfully coincidental how times slots together though, so I feel everything has a reason even if its just so something else happens.

Janus
18th May 2006, 01:13
Quantum uncertainty is meaningless on the macro level since it all "cancels out".
Yes, it is meaningless on the macro level. However, determinism asserts that if there is any non-determinist event then determinism would not be truly correct.

ComradeRed
18th May 2006, 05:36
Why does the behavor of subatomic particles at negligible scales equate to the existence of free will? :huh:

RebelDog
18th May 2006, 08:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 04:36 AM
Why does the behavor of subatomic particles at negligible scales equate to the existence of free will? :huh:
I assume that this is saying that from the very begining of the universe (a universe without quantum fluctuation) everything in it must have determined paths through space/time including of course sub-atomic particles, which make up us and were destined to make us from the first moment of a 'big bang'. If you hit a pool ball toward another you can work out which direction it will go in. I don't see how complexity changes that, it just makes it harder to work-out what will happen.

I don't hold this view of the universe. I believe there is quantum uncertainty, but I like many others may be wrong. If this were to be true, it doesn't in my opinion give any weight to those outside these forums proposing a devine creator, as any god would have had no free will to 'create'.

Janus
21st May 2006, 07:20
Why does the behavor of subatomic particles at negligible scales equate to the existence of free will?
So you believe in determinism? But the Uncertainty principle shows that determinism is wrong since it shows that not all events are deterministic. However, it doesn't exactly prove free will.

ComradeRed
22nd May 2006, 02:16
So you believe in determinism? But the Uncertainty principle shows that determinism is wrong since it shows that not all events are deterministic. However, it doesn't exactly prove free will. With the exception of Feynman's third volume, the interpretation of the Uncertainty principle is quite elementary to demonstrate.

Take a piece of paper, draw a long line on it. Every inch or so draw a circle and fill it in. These are discrete positions that we can observe (because we measure with discrete units).

Now, this distance between the "nodes" (circles) are uniformly equal to the Planck length (approximately 10^-33 centimeters long). In a planck interval of time (10^-44 seconds approximately), light moves 1 planck length.

So suppose we have a point particle. It travels two thirds the speed of light. We can only see it if it is on a node. We know with absolute certainty it began on a node.

Where is it when we measure it?

There is a 2/3 chance it is not on the first node, and a 1/3 chance it is on the first node.

Where does free will come in? :huh:

peaccenicked
22nd May 2006, 08:57
Free will can be relative to wage slavery, we are trapped in the system. We have more choices in how we rebel or if we do not at all: choices like playing games on the internet.
The determistic/free will dichotomy is different for each event.

RebelDog
22nd May 2006, 11:33
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 07:57 AM
Free will can be relative to wage slavery, we are trapped in the system. We have more choices in how we rebel or if we do not at all: choices like playing games on the internet.
The determistic/free will dichotomy is different for each event.
That is a description of this on the macro level. If the universe is deterministic, then biological creatures within it have no free-will, nothing has.

Hegemonicretribution
22nd May 2006, 15:13
I suppose this depends upon the idea of something existing over and above particles. Does it make sense to talk of thought and conscience in terms of particles?

I don't really know, so whilst some may decide that neither exist, I remain undecided as I can't definitely answer either way, as any answer would go against my senses.

I prefer not to think of the universe as deterministic, but even if it is, that we make the choices we do is ultimately important, regardless of whether or theye were going to happen anyway.

Dyst
22nd May 2006, 16:28
Why does the behavor of subatomic particles at negligible scales equate to the existence of free will?

Though off topic, it really isn't "negligible scales" as we are talking about what everything is made of.

Monty Cantsin
22nd May 2006, 23:28
I don’t know if anyone wrote this because I didn’t read the whole article or most of the replies. But why do people feel the urge to totalise to the point were the logic of physics has to hold true for the logic of human praxis. I mean I can be fun to parallel them, but that’s all it is. If the human rase is never able to find the base particle with which the universe consists of that doesn’t preclude our ability to understand ourselves because the empirical data for that is not found micro-level physics but in our objective social condition and subjective reflections. This problem arises out of the lack of demarcation between two sets of issues.

RebelDog
23rd May 2006, 08:02
Originally posted by Monty [email protected] 22 2006, 10:28 PM
I don’t know if anyone wrote this because I didn’t read the whole article or most of the replies. But why do people feel the urge to totalise to the point were the logic of physics has to hold true for the logic of human praxis. I mean I can be fun to parallel them, but that’s all it is. If the human rase is never able to find the base particle with which the universe consists of that doesn’t preclude our ability to understand ourselves because the empirical data for that is not found micro-level physics but in our objective social condition and subjective reflections. This problem arises out of the lack of demarcation between two sets of issues.
How can there be demarcation. What would be on either side of this line, 2 different universes? We live in 1 universe, that is why we try to find a unified theory with QM and GR combined. If this theory is correct and there is no quantum uncertainty, then what is true for the photon is true for the galaxy and all in between. Why are humans special in some peoples minds?

Monty Cantsin
23rd May 2006, 09:25
Originally posted by The Dissenter+May 23 2006, 07:02 AM--> (The Dissenter @ May 23 2006, 07:02 AM)
Monty [email protected] 22 2006, 10:28 PM
I don’t know if anyone wrote this because I didn’t read the whole article or most of the replies. But why do people feel the urge to totalise to the point were the logic of physics has to hold true for the logic of human praxis. I mean I can be fun to parallel them, but that’s all it is. If the human rase is never able to find the base particle with which the universe consists of that doesn’t preclude our ability to understand ourselves because the empirical data for that is not found micro-level physics but in our objective social condition and subjective reflections. This problem arises out of the lack of demarcation between two sets of issues.
How can there be demarcation. What would be on either side of this line, 2 different universes? We live in 1 universe, that is why we try to find a unified theory with QM and GR combined. If this theory is correct and there is no quantum uncertainty, then what is true for the photon is true for the galaxy and all in between. Why are humans special in some peoples minds? [/b]
Your misinterpreted the point of my post. I wasn’t talking about a demarcation between the rules of cosmology or quantum mechanics but rather a demarcation between the logic of human action and the logic of physics. Basically from the standpoint of particle physics it doesn’t matter if humans have free will or not. There completely different questions replying on their own set of empirical data.

It’s like trying to give a theological explanation of political phenomena, your crossing wires because theology has no relevance to the nature of politics. Theology is speculation about the nature of and existence of god. Politics deals with natural presses of human beings. You don’t look to theology for explanations of political phenomena because you might as well be applying pataphyscial methodology.

Edit: i did'nt notice the last question, why do humans special in some peoples minds? because we have choice, it's as simple as that.

Janus
23rd May 2006, 21:48
Where does free will come in?
I didn't say that it proves free will. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle simply disproves determinism as it describes an undeterministic event.

Monty Cantsin
23rd May 2006, 23:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 08:48 PM

Where does free will come in?
I didn't say that it proves free will. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle simply disproves determinism as it describes an undeterministic event.
I don’t know, aren’t you confusing uncertainty in the sense of inability to accurately measure something rather then there is no determinates which determine phenomena.

I mean you’ve heard of Brownian motion? You can see it everyday when sunshine’s through a window and highlights the floating particles in the air. The way in which the particles move up, down in circles or almost stationary could be seen as the definition of uncertainty and chaos. But it’s not that these particles are completely random in their movement but rather it’s the air molecules bumping against them. It appears to be random because we can’t measure their movements, we can’t predict because there’s too many variables. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t variables determining the particles movement.

Janus
23rd May 2006, 23:45
I don’t know, aren’t you confusing uncertainty in the sense of inability to accurately measure something rather then there is no determinates which determine phenomena.
Determinism basically states that every event is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior events. However, the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle disprove this by showing that determinism doesn't take place at the subatomic level. It is probabilistic as ComradeRed sais, but not really deterministic.

Le People
8th June 2006, 05:39
Man is aware he exsists. In knowing that, he knows himself. Man is governed by the law of Reason. It is by this he is progressive and creative. He must choose what he has at his disposal and apply reason to it to get the out come he wants. Of course, he has much more freedom when he is building of the foundation of Nothingness. The building from Nothingness manifests itself through the arts. Progessive action happens in Politics, Economics, Science,ect.

Le People
8th June 2006, 05:39
Man is aware he exsists. In knowing that, he knows himself. Man is governed by the law of Reason. It is by this he is progressive and creative. He must choose what he has at his disposal and apply reason to it to get the out come he wants. Of course, he has much more freedom when he is building of the foundation of Nothingness. The building from Nothingness manifests itself through the arts. Progessive action happens in Politics, Economics, Science,ect.

rouchambeau
9th June 2006, 00:31
The first thing I thought of when I saw the title was yes, but only if randomness exists (and quantum mechanics).

Randomness has nothing to do with free will. Don't forget that for there to be free will there must be a WILL behind an action.

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor
9th June 2006, 04:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 06:49 PM

Where does free will come in?
I didn't say that it proves free will. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle simply disproves determinism as it describes an undeterministic event.
With respect, if you wouldn't mine explaining (preferably in a simple manner) how this disproves derminism, I would be interested in hearing your answer. If someone is proved to happen randomly, that does not mean it is random. If a different result happens each time, that result could be determined. Determinism must be refuted on philosophical rather than scientific grounds, from what I can see, because it refutes and questions the foundations by which modern science operates.

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

Johnny Anarcho
9th June 2006, 04:23
Should one look at right and wrong as ethical questions? That is the problem. Marcuse says Hegel's "Philosophy of Right" does not assign a moral category to "wrong". Free will inevitably causes wrong. Thats written by Marx. The blind anarchy of capitalism. You have to be prepared to reconsider right and wrong. Because basically those are just terms that express a horrible struggle, parts of an equation of pure dialect.

RebelDog
9th June 2006, 04:55
Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor+Jun 9 2006, 01:16 AM--> (Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor @ Jun 9 2006, 01:16 AM)
[email protected] 23 2006, 06:49 PM

Where does free will come in?
I didn't say that it proves free will. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle simply disproves determinism as it describes an undeterministic event.
With respect, if you wouldn't mine explaining (preferably in a simple manner) how this disproves derminism, I would be interested in hearing your answer. If someone is proved to happen randomly, that does not mean it is random. If a different result happens each time, that result could be determined. Determinism must be refuted on philosophical rather than scientific grounds, from what I can see, because it refutes and questions the foundations by which modern science operates.

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory [/b]
This disproves determinism simply because sub-atomic particles, the uncertainty-principle and us (humans) all exist in 1 universe. If sub-atomic particles have uncertainty in their past, present and futures then so do we, otherwise that would be 2 seperate universes. The tiniest of fluctuations can have huge change as a consequence.

Take zero-point energy for example. This is a quantum effect caused by the uncertainty principle. Take simple water and swap the hydrogen atoms with its heavier isotope deuterium. The resulting liquid is chemically identical, but highly posionous to life on earth. The only difference is the zero-point energy of everyday water which makes it toxic, a quantum effect. A quantum quality has had a macro-world effect. We and particles are in 1 universe and we must obey the same laws.

Epoche
9th June 2006, 06:46
I just wanted to comment on an interesting perspective, specifically that of Friedrich Nietzsche, regarding the concept of "freewill" and how it had its origins.

He suggests that it was an invention of the ruling class, which I suspect has its utility by being a sort of deterent or supervision over the masses. Not unlike Marx's famous quip "opiate of the masses," except this specific context, that is, causing the masses to believe they are "free," would be used to induce a sense of guilt and remorse so that punishment would be more readily accepted.

Two things I'd like to point out, also, which I'm sure you all are aware of. The two greatest arguments against the theory of determinism are made by Hume and Quantum Mechanics, however, these arguments are not arguments concerning the nature of causality...but observation. To say that I cannot prove that the sun will rise tomorrow, or where and when a particle is at time X, is not to say that which ever is the case it is not also determined.

"Freewill" is not a philosophical issue, but a practical one bearing ethical implications, invented and used as a tool in politics.

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor
10th June 2006, 20:50
I think determinism is rather difficult to disprove on non-philosophical grounds. Sure, something could not obey the laws of our universe, but that does not make it non-determined. The forces making the uncertainty principle exist could themselves be determined and yet to be discovered - or it could be indeterminism within a deterministic universe (chaos theory). Furthermore, determinism still remains a discussion in philosophical and scientific circles, with pro-determinist philosophy seeming more prevalent (from what I have seen), so I hardly think the issue has been settled.

RebelDog
11th June 2006, 01:41
Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 10 2006, 05:51 PM
I think determinism is rather difficult to disprove on non-philosophical grounds. Sure, something could not obey the laws of our universe, but that does not make it non-determined. The forces making the uncertainty principle exist could themselves be determined and yet to be discovered - or it could be indeterminism within a deterministic universe (chaos theory). Furthermore, determinism still remains a discussion in philosophical and scientific circles, with pro-determinist philosophy seeming more prevalent (from what I have seen), so I hardly think the issue has been settled.
I completely agree with this. You have summed it up in a nutshell. We are far from knowing what the reality is.

RebelDog
14th June 2006, 03:37
The reality is that you are destined to overthrow your master. Fuck him and fuck all ownership.

iloveatomickitten
17th June 2006, 00:28
I must admit I really couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread but free will isn't a question of determinism but causality. For free will to exist it would have to be independent of previous events else it really wouldn't be "free."