Support for Palestinian Infitada...

[JudeObscure84]

I bought the movie Munich the other day and watched it for the second time. Upon the second viewing I caught the conversation Eric Bana has with the Palestinian militant in the middle of the film, where they are talking near the staircase. Now whatever your opinion of the movie may be, that conversation was key to understanding alot of the PLO's decided goals.

I thought it was exactly right when the Pal said, "IRA, ETA, Red Army, We dont care about your international organizations, because you have a home to go to. Country is everything."


Now obviously from reading alot of Palestinian views they seem ardent nationalists, not internationalists. Most of the left wing movements for national liberations of the past were for to create marxist lands to unite an international world to break up borders. The Palestinians have always fought for "self determination" through blood and soil rhetoric and fight for borders. The Palestinians are a nationalist organization with Islamic underpinnings. So what is so attractive to Marxists about Palestinian infitadas?

Lets discuss this in civil discourse. I really want to know whats so appealing about Palestinian Solidarity.

[KC]

So what is so attractive to Marxists about Palestinian infitadas?

We support all anti-imperialism movements.

[RedAnarchist]

Support for Palestine is supporting "small" nationalism - nationalism which is not imperialistic. Same goes for the supporting of Basque, Irish, Catalan nationalism etc.

[JudeObscure84]

We support all anti-imperialism movements.

Then why do you support 4 imperial attempts to eradicate Israel? If anything the Palestinians have supported Saddam Hussien's imperial attemps at Iran and Kuwait. Their leaders have contiously praised a past Nazi partnered Mufti and thier factions whether secular or Islamic reek of fascist ideology. (and I dont mean fascist as in a simple right wing authoritarian sense, but in a deep rooted longing for lost empires and pan-arab or pan-islamic nationalism).

[JudeObscure84]

Support for Palestine is supporting "small" nationalism - nationalism which is not imperialistic. Same goes for the supporting of Basque, Irish, Catalan nationalism etc.

I see yet the ideological underpinnings of both Fatah and Hamas do little to sway you away from their cause.

and what about the "small" nationalism of Zionism. It seems like arabs control far more land than jews if you ask me.

[KC]

Then why do you support 4 imperial attempts to eradicate Israel?

Israel isn't a state. It is an imperialist military occupation.


If anything the Palestinians have supported Saddam Hussien's imperial attemps at Iran and Kuwait.

What does this have to do with us?


Their leaders have contiously praised a past Nazi partnered Mufti and thier factions whether secular or Islamic reek of fascist ideology.

Which is all a reaction to Israeli occupation and oppression.


I see yet the ideological underpinnings of both Fatah and Hamas do little to sway you away from their cause.


You know, there are secular anti-imperialist organizations in Palestine ;)

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 10:51 PM

Support for Palestine is supporting "small" nationalism - nationalism which is not imperialistic. Same goes for the supporting of Basque, Irish, Catalan nationalism etc.

I see yet the ideological underpinnings of both Fatah and Hamas do little to sway you away from their cause.

and what about the "small" nationalism of Zionism. It seems like arabs control far more land than jews if you ask me.
So? Some people in those countries have resorted to terrorism, but we communists reject terrorism as a valid method of bringing about the change we seek.

[JudeObscure84]

Israel isn't a state. It is an imperialist military occupation

Israel was founded as a state in 1948. And the only imperial attempts were by the arab nations to try and eradicate it. So in essense you support the elimination of the state of Israel?


What does this have to do with us?

It has to do with the indirect support you give to people who are fighting for political struggle.


Which is all a reaction to Israeli occupation and oppression.

No it doesnt. Dont you ever ask why the Palestinians are in the squalor they're in? Its because of their rejection of a Jewish state and thier constant attempts to eradicate it.


You know, there are secular anti-imperialist organizations in Palestine

There are plenty of organizations in Palestine and Israel that wish for peace. I for one support the Israeli Labour over Likud or Kadima, but I am talking about the revolutionary political factions.
and besides both Fatah and Hamas are the factions that are in control.

[JudeObscure84]

So? Some people in those countries have resorted to terrorism, but we communists reject terrorism as a valid method of bringing about the change we seek.

Oh yeah "so" like you can just ride that off. Why arent you protesting in Syria over thier checkpoints? Or perhaps the treatment of Palestinian refugees in other parts of the Arab world?

Everyone seems to start with what the Palestinians are doing NOW, as if they resorted to doing horrible things as a result of the squalor they just magically ended up in.

[amanondeathrow]

Israel was founded as a state in 1948. And the only imperial attempts were by the arab nations to try and eradicate it. So in essense you support the elimination of the state of Israel?

Are you fucking kidding me? Israeli is currently occupying territory that it captured illegally in the sixties. How is that not imperialism?


It has to do with the indirect support you give to people who are fighting for political struggle.

So because a small minority of those in a movement holds religious fundamentalist views, we should allow Israel to continue to oppress the Palestinians?


No it doesnt. Dont you ever ask why the Palestinians are in the squalor they're in? Its because of their rejection of a Jewish state and thier constant attempts to eradicate it.

The majority of Palestinians do not want to wipe Israel off the map (although it would be understandable if they did). The consensus among Palestinians is that they desire self government, free from Israeli oppression. They have no desire to kill Jews, unless those Jews are bulldozing their homes or killing their children.


There are plenty of organizations in Palestine and Israel that wish for peace. I for one support the Israeli Labour over Likud or Kadima, but I am talking about the revolutionary political factions.
and besides both Fatah and Hamas are the factions that are in control.

You cannot judge a people by the leaders they appear to have elected.

The Palestinians were backed into a corner by the oppressive policies of Israel and Hamas were the only ones offering any hope on a large scale.

Israel is responsible for the current regime in Palestine, just as they are responsible for all the violence related to the occupation.

[amanondeathrow]

Everyone seems to start with what the Palestinians are doing NOW, as if they resorted to doing horrible things as a result of the squalor they just magically ended up in.

Palestinians were not attacking and killing Jews before they were occupied.

The resistance and the deaths it results in are purely a result of the occupation and the poor conditions Palestinians are forced to live in. It is not based on anti-Semitism, although at times it appears so.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 09:42 PM
I thought it was exactly right when the Pal said, "IRA, ETA, Red Army, We dont care about your international organizations, because you have a home to go to. Country is everything."
Palestinian resistance forces have been known to have had links with the likes of the IRA, ETA and the RAF.

The links between the Palestinians and Irish Republicans is common knowledge, indeed IRA and PLO forces are known to have trained together in Libya.

The support provided by Palestinian militias to ETA was one of the main reasons behind the Gonzalez government's decision to recognize Israel in the 1980s.

Moreover, during the late 1960s and early 1970s, the PFLP made alliances with all sorts of militant left-wing groups, including the Red Army Faction in Germany and the Japanese Red Army.

So the lesson for today is not to gain your information on the Palestinian struggle against illegal Israeli occupation from Hollywood movies.

[theraven]

Are you fucking kidding me? Israeli is currently occupying territory that it captured illegally in the sixties. How is that not imperialism?


It occupsied those lands not for reasons of imperalism (ie to use the resrouces or what not) but to get a better strategic position to make attackign it more difficult.



So because a small minority of those in a movement holds religious fundamentalist views, we should allow Israel to continue to oppress the Palestinians?

his point is why do you support religsou extremist (which are more then a small minorty btw)



The majority of Palestinians do not want to wipe Israel off the map (although it would be understandable if they did). The consensus among Palestinians is that they desire self government, free from Israeli oppression. They have no desire to kill Jews, unless those Jews are bulldozing their homes or killing their children.

this differs vastly from the impression i have gotten form palestianisn i hae met.



You cannot judge a people by the leaders they appear to have elected.

The Palestinians were backed into a corner by the oppressive policies of Israel and Hamas were the only ones offering any hope on a large scale.

Israel is responsible for the current regime in Palestine, just as they are responsible for all the violence related to the occupation.

they knew what hamas stood for and voted fro them anyway, israel and the US are right not to deal with hamas.



Palestinians were not attacking and killing Jews before they were occupied.

The resistance and the deaths it results in are purely a result of the occupation and the poor conditions Palestinians are forced to live in. It is not based on anti-Semitism, although at times it appears so.

it is undeniable that ceritan aspects of the anti-israeli movmetn are anti-semietic...

[amanondeathrow]

It occupsied those lands not for reasons of imperalism (ie to use the resrouces or what not) but to get a better strategic position to make attackign it more difficult.

How is that not imperialism? Israel took over land to protect its interests (i.e. its recourses). That is the definition of imperialism.


his point is why do you support religsou extremist (which are more then a small minorty btw)

Very few leftists actually support religious fundamentalists in Palestine. What we do support is self determination in Palestine and if some rightists happen to be a part of that struggle, then we will just have to deal with it and not let it hurt the movement.

And do you have any evidence that the majority of Palestinians are religious extremists?


this differs vastly from the impression i have gotten form palestianisn i hae met.

So you're basing your opinion on what one person said? I could say the same thing, but to prove my point.

Instead I will use some real evidence:

Some 54 percent of the Palestinians support a two-state solution on the basis of the 1967 lines, with border corrections and no massive return of refugees
Poll: Majority of Palestinians now support two-state solution (http://www.metransparent.com/texts/akiva_eldar_majority_palestinians_support_two_stat e_solution.htm)


they knew what hamas stood for and voted fro them anyway, israel and the US are right not to deal with hamas.

Israelis are well aware of what their government is doing to innocent Palestinians, so are they all guilty of murder? I think not.

Palestinians should not be expected to look past their own interests when they are living in the conditions they are now.


it is undeniable that ceritan aspects of the anti-israeli movmetn are anti-semietic...


Of course there are some anti Semites who oppose Israel, it is a JEWISH state so it is in their nature to oppose it. There are also rightists who oppose the Iraq war, but that should not stop us from doing the same.

Regardless, what I meant was that Palestinians do not oppose Israel because of some inherent anti Semitism, but because they are being oppressed. If Israel treated them fairly, there would be no where near as much hatred towards it.

[JudeObscure84]

Are you fucking kidding me? Israeli is currently occupying territory that it captured illegally in the sixties. How is that not imperialism?

Israel is occupying lands it won in a defensive war against the arab agressors. Since when does the winning end of a battle give back land? And anyways it gave two of the three lands it took back. Anwar Sadat was killed because of one give.


So because a small minority of those in a movement holds religious fundamentalist views, we should allow Israel to continue to oppress the Palestinians?

The point is nearly all of the factions have had radical struggle through armed force. There are hardly progressive factions. And this post is refering to the support for the intifadas.


The majority of Palestinians do not want to wipe Israel off the map (although it would be understandable if they did). The consensus among Palestinians is that they desire self government, free from Israeli oppression. They have no desire to kill Jews, unless those Jews are bulldozing their homes or killing their children.

That is false. The Palestinians couldve had a homeland during the UN Partition Plan, but they rejected it and chose war. It wasnt until the 1967 war and the occupation of arab lands did most of the terrorism and the political struggle really take shape.
And there is no logical understanding of wanting to eradicate Israel. I cannot believe the anti-israeli propaganda thats fed to desire the elimination of a jewish homeland.



You cannot judge a people by the leaders they appear to have elected.

Well then dont blame the Israelis for electing hawish Sharon and the Likud after several failed negotiations with the corrupt PLO.



The Palestinians were backed into a corner by the oppressive policies of Israel and Hamas were the only ones offering any hope on a large scale.

You mean after wanting not wanting the Israeli state to be created, they attack Israel in 1948, lost, then lost again after another attempt, then lost land. and they get mad about this? they get mad about israelis protecting and defending themselves against agressors and Palestinians hate them for this? how absurd.


Israel is responsible for the current regime in Palestine, just as they are responsible for all the violence related to the occupation.

HAHA! Israel is responsible for the hatred that festers in Palestine against the Jews? Why cant the Palestinians put down thier guns?

The occupation couldve been over had the arab state recognized israel as a state, which the arabs responded with NO NO NO.

[JudeObscure84]

Palestinians were not attacking and killing Jews before they were occupied.

There were no Palestinians until 1967. Before they were simply Arabs. And yes they were killing jews before the occupation.


The resistance and the deaths it results in are purely a result of the occupation and the poor conditions Palestinians are forced to live in. It is not based on anti-Semitism, although at times it appears so.

Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini sided with the Nazis to try to exterminate the Jews in the middle east way before the creation of the Jewish state. Secondly, the Arabs tried to advance on the Jewish state before and after its inception. There were three imperial attemps to take Israel before ANY occupation.


The resistance and the deaths it results in are purely a result of the occupation and the poor conditions Palestinians are forced to live in. It is not based on anti-Semitism, although at times it appears so

Why does everyone start on that point? As if somehow the Palestinians magically ended up in squalors? They ended up there because of the Arab wars against Israel. Its that simple. The occupation goes on because arab countries wont let the multitude of thier brothers into their land. The Syrian checkpoints are just as bad as the Israeli ones and the Lebanese have killed a roughshot amount of Palestinians as well.

So case in point the Palestinians are where they are because of manipulative politics played by the Arab nations on the peopel of palestine and the aggressive campaign to eradicate Israel before 1967.

[JudeObscure84]

Israel would not let the Pals in because the arab states would not recognize Israel. After the build up of nearly millions of refugees, to let a population of that magnitude back into a country they've sworn to kill is suicide. They cannot trust them after 4 attempts and countless terrorist attacks and intifadas. Even after several Palestinian officials have called for repeatedly for the elimination of Israel.

[JudeObscure84]

Palestinian resistance forces have been known to have had links with the likes of the IRA, ETA and the RAF.

The links between the Palestinians and Irish Republicans is common knowledge, indeed IRA and PLO forces are known to have trained together in Libya.

The support provided by Palestinian militias to ETA was one of the main reasons behind the Gonzalez government's decision to recognize Israel in the 1980s.

Moreover, during the late 1960s and early 1970s, the PFLP made alliances with all sorts of militant left-wing groups, including the Red Army Faction in Germany and the Japanese Red Army.

So the lesson for today is not to gain your information on the Palestinian struggle against illegal Israeli occupation from Hollywood movies.

What a useless rant. I never said that they dont work together, but I said it illogical to work together considering that Palestinian revolutionaries are horrid proto-fascist factions. Thier use of Carlos the Jackal, the massacre of the Israeli athletes team and the hijacking of flights worldwide is astounding. But its not like the IRA, ETA and RAF are any better.

[JudeObscure84]

How is that not imperialism? Israel took over land to protect its interests (i.e. its recourses). That is the definition of imperialism.


You mean won land in a defensive war? Took land for an agressor and occupied it until the duration of the war. Later if gave back land and kept the other two portions it took if the arabs would accept the Israeli state, renounce terror. Something that still is ignored.


Very few leftists actually support religious fundamentalists in Palestine. What we do support is self determination in Palestine and if some rightists happen to be a part of that struggle, then we will just have to deal with it and not let it hurt the movement.

And do you have any evidence that the majority of Palestinians are religious extremists?

Again same analogy as the Iraq War. "Ah Dur- We'll support anti-imperialism, but if right wing extremist fascists join the fight and even overwhelm it, well thats ok too, even if its against western democracies. Ahyuck.

I cannot believe how you guys cant see that this is like supporting the fascists during WWII because of your rejction to western powers. Some of you even convince yourselves that Israel has no right to exist.

And no one is saying that the Palestinians overwhelmingly support the elemination of israel and extremist factions. I am harping at so called leftist support for any radical factions whether secular or Islamic. Fatah or Hamas.



Poll: Majority of Palestinians now support two-state solution

You mean they're going back to the 1940's when the Partition map was drawn? They couldve accepted a two state solution and saved themselves years of torment.


Israelis are well aware of what their government is doing to innocent Palestinians, so are they all guilty of murder? I think not.

I think you mean; Palestians are well aware that thier faction and past have been doing to the Israelis for all of its existence. Palestinians are very guilty of murder. They've got blood on thier hands. I admit that the Israelis are no saints and I am against the occupation lasting this long, but even I understand the murdering intentions of their leaders.


Palestinians should not be expected to look past their own interests when they are living in the conditions they are now.

Thier interests are to put down thier guns and negotiate peace. Its THEIR fault they're living in those conditions, theirs and the complicit arab agressors.

[JudeObscure84]

Of course there are some anti Semites who oppose Israel, it is a JEWISH state so it is in their nature to oppose it. There are also rightists who oppose the Iraq war, but that should not stop us from doing the same.

More fascist sympathizing. Anybody can see a night and day difference between the Israel Defense Forces, Israel and the Jews vs. the PLO, the horrid terrorist factions, and the Arab aggressors that support them. Why the hell is this so appealing? Why do you guys romantisize thier revolutionary struggle when its mired in murder?


Regardless, what I meant was that Palestinians do not oppose Israel because of some inherent anti Semitism, but because they are being oppressed. If Israel treated them fairly, there would be no where near as much hatred towards it.

They are being oppressed and the situation is getting to where I cannot support much of Israels policies anymore, but thats because of the recent 30 year escalation of Palestinian violence over the occupation, because of the war the ARAB STATES STARTED.

Will someone please give me the reason why the Arabs attacked 3 times before the occupation?

[Andy Bowden]

Israel is occupying lands it won in a defensive war against the arab agressors

"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." -Menachem Begin.

"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.

And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997

http://www.cactus48.com/1967war.html

Put simply, the 6 day war was not a defensive war. Every battle plan the CIA concieved of, found that Israel would win in approximately a week - regardless of who shot first.

It was a war to achieve the territorial ambitions of Zionism - if you dont believe me, listen to Ben Gurion,

"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." David Ben-Gurion, in 1936, quoted in Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 04:41 AM
What a useless rant. I never said that they dont work together, but I said it illogical to work together considering that Palestinian revolutionaries are horrid proto-fascist factions.
Great response...

:rolleyes:

You began this thread accusing Palestinians of lacking in "internationalism" and that they were only "ardent nationalists".

I refuted such a claim by giving the facts about Palestinian links with national liberation movements and left-wing militants across the world.


You mean they're going back to the 1940's when the Partition map was drawn? They couldve accepted a two state solution and saved themselves years of torment.


Arab rejection was... based on the fact that, while the population of the Jewish state was to be [only half] Jewish with the Jews owning less than 10% of the Jewish state land area, the Jews were to be established as the ruling body - a settlement which no self-respecting people would accept without protest, to say the least... The action of the United Nations conflicted with the basic principles for which the world organization was established, namely, to uphold the right of all peoples to self-determination. By denying the Palestine Arabs, who formed the two-thirds majority of the country, the right to decide for themselves, the United Nations had violated its own charter.

-- Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest".

Moreover, the problem with your foolish argument is that it ignores the fact that the Zionist movement was hellbent on removing every Palestinian from the land they saw as theirs.

The Zionist movement had always propagated the myth of the "land without people for a people without land". The fact was that there were hundreds of thousands of people already living in the place where the Zionist Jews wished to live.

Indeed, as a result of their desire to gain all of Palestine, the Zionist movement was largely dissatisfied with the terms of the UN partition plan.

While the Yishuv's leadership formally accepted the 1947 Partition Resolution, large sections of Israel's society - including... Ben-Gurion - were opposed to or extremely unhappy with partition and from early on viewed the war as an ideal opportunity to expand the new state's borders beyond the UN earmarked partition boundaries and at the expense of the Palestinians.

-- Benny Morris in "Tikkun", March/April 1998.

In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that 'after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine'... In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: 'The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever.'

-- Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle".

Indeed, as Benny Morris so astonishingly admitted in an interview with Ha'aretz in January 2004, recently declassified documents in the archives of the IDF reveal that in 1947, Ben-Gurion and other Zionist leaders concluded that a Jewish state could not come into being in the territory assigned to Jews by the UN without the uprooting of 700 000 Palestinians.

In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.

Morris stated that this resulted in "far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought", including "many cases of rape [that] ended in murder" and executions of Palestinians who were lined up against a wall and shot (in Operation Hiram).

The dismantling of Palestinian society, the destruction of Palestinian towns and villages, and the expulsion of 700 000 Palestinians were not unavoidable consequences of the war declared on the emerging Jewish state by Arab countries. Rather, as Morris repeatedly confirms, it was a deliberate and planned operation intended to "cleanse" (the term used in the declassified documents) those parts of Palestine assigned to the Jews as a necessary pre-condition for the emergence of a Jewish state.

Morris went on to say that "Ben-Gurion was right. Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here".

Let's not forget, the likes of Ben-Gurion were merely putting into action the very foremost plans of the Zionist project.

We shall spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly

-- Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, 1892.

You need only look at what happened at Deir Yassin to get an idea of what Zionism is about. That was worse than "torment".

[JudeObscure84]

Great response...



You began this thread accusing Palestinians of lacking in "internationalism" and that they were only "ardent nationalists".

I refuted such a claim by giving the facts about Palestinian links with national liberation movements and left-wing militants across the world.

No fool. I said that despite the PLO's long time siding with other internationalist movements, their movement doesnt fit since it is ardently nationalist. Giving me facts that the Palestinians worked with other groups is spurious because that was not my point. My point was that it was illogical for the other groups to work with nationalists.
If anything it kind of supports the accusation that left wing movements side with right wing radicals when it comes to the middle east.


Arab rejection was... based on the fact that, while the population of the Jewish state was to be [only half] Jewish with the Jews owning less than 10% of the Jewish state land area, the Jews were to be established as the ruling body - a settlement which no self-respecting people would accept without protest, to say the least... The action of the United Nations conflicted with the basic principles for which the world organization was established, namely, to uphold the right of all peoples to self-determination. By denying the Palestine Arabs, who formed the two-thirds majority of the country, the right to decide for themselves, the United Nations had violated its own charter.

-- Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest".

The arabs love to talk big about international law when most of thier countries violate it like no other. Anyways, any partition that would've resulted in a Jewish state would have included a substantial Arab population. The boundaries were based solely on demographics. The Jewish State was to be comprised of roughly 5,500 square miles, and the population was to be 538,000 Jews and 397,000 Arabs. The Arab State was to be 4,500 square miles with a population of 804,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews.
The British had already cut 80% of the Palestine and the UN only partioned 20%. So the arabs controlled 80% of the land while jews controlled only 17.5%. The Jews were the majority in the parts allocated to them. So the partition was as fair as it was going to get. If the Palestinians didnt like that, well they had Jordan.

Ironically, the arab states that rejected a parititon plan for Israel supported the creation of Pakistan.



Moreover, the problem with your foolish argument is that it ignores the fact that the Zionist movement was hellbent on removing every Palestinian from the land they saw as theirs.

The Zionist movement had always propagated the myth of the "land without people for a people without land". The fact was that there were hundreds of thousands of people already living in the place where the Zionist Jews wished to live.

Indeed, as a result of their desire to gain all of Palestine, the Zionist movement was largely dissatisfied with the terms of the UN partition plan.

Jewish Agency representatives David Horowitz and Abba Eban met with Arab League Secretary Azzam Pasha on September 16, 1947 in order to make a last ditch effort for a compromise. Upon which the Pasha refused and said "The Arab world is not in a compromising mood..... But it’s too late to talk of peaceful solutions."


While the Yishuv's leadership formally accepted the 1947 Partition Resolution, large sections of Israel's society - including... Ben-Gurion - were opposed to or extremely unhappy with partition and from early on viewed the war as an ideal opportunity to expand the new state's borders beyond the UN earmarked partition boundaries and at the expense of the Palestinians.

-- Benny Morris in "Tikkun", March/April 1998.

That is an outright lie. Ben Gurion was unhappy about the Partition over the curtailing of jewish immigrants. I am well aware that there is a whole industry of falsified Israeli quotes so I try not to get play that game but if you insist, Chomsky's qute is way off.


Mr. Ben-Gurion: The starting point for a solution of the question of the Arabs in the Jewish State is, in his view, the need to prepare the ground for an Arab-Jewish agreement; he supports [the establishment of] the Jewish State [on a small part of Palestine], not because he is satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we constitute a large force following the establishment of the state – we will cancel the partition [of the country between Jews and Arabs] and we will expand throughout the Land of Israel.

Mr. Shapira [a JAE member]: By force as well?

Mr. Ben-Gurion: [No]. Through mutual understanding and Jewish-Arab agreement. So long as we are weak and few the Arabs have neither the need nor the interest to conclude an alliance with us... And since the state is only a stage in the realization of Zionism and it must prepare the ground for our expansion throughout the whole country through Jewish-Arab agreement – we are obliged to run the state in such a way that will win us the friendship of the Arabs both within and outside the state.

Mr. Ben Gurion was stating the opposite. There would be no expansion through war but through peace and negotiatians.



On the issue of the 700,000 refugees:


These should be returned to their places, with full ownership of their lands etc., and with full [citizenship] rights. We should not, as a matter of principle, discriminate against an Arab who had stayed inside [Israel] and thereby accepted its rule. He should enjoy full rights, including his property [rights]—unless there are decisive emergency considerations, security-wise. This should be the instruction to governors, commanders, etc.

- Bechor Shalom Shitrit, Minister of Police and Minorities, August 1948
A Précis of a Meeting at the Prime Minister's Office on the Problems of the Arab Refugees and their Return.


And we must prevent at all costs their return meanwhile [i.e., until the end of the war]. We, as well as world public opinion cannot ignore the horrible fact that 700,000 [Jewish] people are confronted here with 27 million [Arabs], one against forty. Humanity's conscience was not shocked when 27 million attacked 700,000—after six million Jews had been slaughtered in Europe. It will not be just if they demand of us to allow back to Abu Kabir and Jaffa those who tried to destroy us.

- Ben-Gurion, Be-hilahem Israel, p. 131


Jaffa will become a Jewish city. War is war; it is not us who wanted war. Tel-Aviv did not wage war on Jaffa, Jaffa waged war on Tel-Aviv. And this should not happen again. We will not be "foolish hasidim." Bringing back the Arabs to Jaffa is not just but rather is foolish. Those who had gone to war against us—let them carry the responsibility after having lost

- Ben Gurion.

He did not want war nor asked for war. There was no deliberate attempt to wage war in order to steal arab land.



We shall spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly

-- Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, 1892.



When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of immovable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back.

It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire old world a wonderful example. ...

Estate owners who are attached to their soil ... will be offered a complete transplantation–to any place they wish, like our own people. ...If this offer is not accepted either, no harm will be done. ... we shall simply leave them there

- Theodor Herzl

Next time quote the whole thing.

On Palestinians always being in Palestine:


The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track suitable for transport by camels and carts...no orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached the Jewish village of Yabna Yavne....Houses were all of mud. No windows were anywhere to be seen....The ploughs used were of wood....The yields were very poor....The sanitary conditions in the village were horrible. Schools did not exist....The western part, towards the sea, was almost a desert....The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many ruins of villages were scattered over the area, as owing to the prevalence of malaria, many villages were deserted by their inhabitants

- Report of the Palestine Royal Commission 1913

Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia foresaw the return of several arabs after the return of jews in massive numbers:


One of the most amazing things until recent times was that the Palestinian used to leave his country, wandering over the high seas in every direction. His native soil could not retain a hold on him, though his ancestors had lived on it for 1000 years

[JudeObscure84]

In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." -Menachem Begin.

"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.

And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997


"For sure there were discussions about going up the Golan Heights or not going up the Golan Heights, but the discussions were about security for the kibbutzim in Galilee," he said. "I think that Dayan himself didn't want to go to the Golan Heights. This is something we've known for many years. But no kibbutz got any land from conquering the Golan Heights. People who went there went on their own. It's cynicism to say the kibbutzim wanted land."

- Muky Tsur, United Kibbutz Movement

Dayan was mentioning some of the people in the Kibbutz that expressed taking the land. But this is denied by the leader of the Kibutz and doesnt express the collective opinion. I wouldnt doubt Dayans words that there were proly some interested in the land but that this didnt overide the security proposal to take the land during the '67 war.


Here he singles out the kibbutzim, which is not a very balanced picture. Israel was very attentive to Soviet reactions at the time, and he was one of the wisest Israelis in politics, so he must have taken that into consideration. Second, Dayan by 1967 was very cognizant that some Israeli conquests would be nullified by the U.N., and therefore wondered whether it was really worthwhile, since it might be costly in blood."

- Shabtai Teveth, Dayan biographer

The rest of the artcile that you cited goes on to question the outright legtimacy and understanding of the interview. Plus, it also goes into how this one statement should not over shadow the legit reasons of taking Syrian lands.


I'm concerned that this will become the whole story, that people will lose sight of how the '67 war broke out, how Syria was the catalyst, how it was seeking a rise in tensions, seeking to goad Egypt into action,"


- Bruce Maddy-Weitzman, a senior researcher at the Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies in Tel Aviv

http://partners.nytimes.com/library/world/...olan-dayan.html (http://partners.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/051197golan-dayan.html)


This was a war of self-defense in the noblest sense of the term. The Government of National Unity then established decided unanimously: we will take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation

- continuation of the quote andy bowen listed by Menachem Begin.


As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence

- May 18, 1967 after the removal of the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956.


Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation

- Syrian defense minister Hafez Assad


“The Jews threaten to make war. I reply: Welcome! We are ready for war"

- Nasser of Egypt.



The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations

Nasser and King Hussien of Jordan after signing a defense pact with Egypt .

Approximately 250,000 troops (nearly half in Sinai), more than 2,000 tanks and 700 aircraft ringed Israel during all of this. And you expected Israel to remain in a state of alert while the Arabs eroded UN positioned troops to secure thier safety and took over the ports in Straits of Tiran? The closure of the Strait of Tiran was the casus belli in 1967. Israel’s attack was a reaction to this Egyptian first strike.

[Enragé]

Israel is an oppressive state without any reason to exist. Its founding was an act of imperialist agression

As i see it, national liberation from an occupying force is a step towards self-determination, democracy, freedom and the revolution. You cannot re-arrange your society if some outside force has a smothering hold on it, if their is a (percieved or not) enemy greater than your own leaders

Also
PFLP is leftist ;)

[JudeObscure84]

Israel is an oppressive state without any reason to exist. Its founding was an act of imperialist agression

You guys are like robots. "free thinkers" my right nut! Israel was a state established under the worst of violence by its agressors. The only agression was that of the surrounding arab states.


As i see it, national liberation from an occupying force is a step towards self-determination, democracy, freedom and the revolution. You cannot re-arrange your society if some outside force has a smothering hold on it, if their is a (percieved or not) enemy greater than your own leaders

there is no self determination. This is unlike the struggles of the Kurds, Tibetans and the Basques. For the start this was an attempt to eradicate any thought of a jewish state.


Also
PFLP is leftist

If that group is leftist, then I turn in my socialist credentials. It was supported by Saddam Hussien and the Baathists. They aslo hijacked several planes and killed civilians on board.


Iraq under Saddam supported international terrorist organizations to bolster Iraq's revolutionary credentials, ensure his own role as Great Arab leader, and intimidate rival governments. In examining the history, methods, and patterns of behavior of Saddam Husayn in supporting international terrorism, some "truths" stand out. Beginning in the early 1970s, Saddam provided safe haven, training, arms, and other forms of assistance to Palestinian and Arab extremists. Baghdad hosted the Abu Nidal Organization (ANO), the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), and the Hawari faction of the PLO. In addition, Baghdad created the Arab Liberation Front (ALF) as its personal surrogate in the wars against Israel. Although the ALF conducted no terrorist operations, Saddam used it in the 1970s and resurrected it again in the current Palestinian intifada as a means to recruit Palestinians and, in 2001, to win praise for offering $25,000 to the family of each Palestinian "martyred" in an Israeli attack. Some examples of Iraqi support include:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hea...tness_yaphe.htm (http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing3/witness_yaphe.htm)
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1199662004

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Jade, this is like talking sense to a fool, and thats why they call the way we think foolish....this people don't see the obvious, which is that Palestinians have never been an entity as a country etc..Palestine is merely a PART or a REGION of Judea, it has always been that historically, and now all the sudden they want to be free because the government is Jewish...it's obvious most Palestinians want the demise of the Jews and the Jewish state, its a FACT that Jews are HATED!!! by the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab and Muslim world....Palestinians only target is civilians, they don't care about blowing up a police car, they prefer a bus full of woman and children.......the only agression here was that of the Muslim world against Israel, and now because Isreal beat their asses and won some territory as they were in the defenesive, the Muslims are craying and saying the Israelis are the imperialistic oppressors!! AHAHAHA! ohh please....


the only reason why you leftists are on Palestines side , is because Israel is an allie of the USA, that is the only bias reason you guys have, no other reason, because as Jade has showed in all his posts he has crushed you all....all you guys say is "ISRAEL IS OPPRESOR IMPERIALIST BLA BLA BLA", while there is obvious evidence the Jews didn't start this, they deserved a land of their own, and they are merely in the defensive in a very hostile part of the world, in fact i admire the Israelis for standing up to those freaking theocratic Islamic jihadists...

http://media.snuffx.com/x/x-jlgdbh57udfgh/may9/snuffx-dot-com-someone-needs-huggies-for-jews.jpg

hahahaha ^^^ I LOVE THAT PICTURE!!! LMAO!!! not so tough now huh

[amanondeathrow]

Palestinians only target is civilians, they don't care about blowing up a police car, they prefer a bus full of woman and children

The fact is that Israel has killed many more civilians (including children) then Palestinian militants.

Israel is a nation, with a central government and military, while the Palestinians who commit terrorism against civilians act independently of the Palestinians populous.

Yet you find it necessary to mock a poor Palestinians being terrorized by soldiers. That’s the difference between us, no Palestinian human rights defender would laugh at a picture of dead Israeli civilians. You’re sick.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

OHHH!!! C'MON!!! the poor bugger peed his PANTS!! AHAHAHAHAHAHA!! lmao, i swear to god i never thought this was true! but look! hahaahahah i got the evidence!! how can this not be funny!! lol, and by the way as far as im concerned he loos pretty alive to me, so i highly doubt he was dead right there ok buddy...


and sure Israel has killed more people, that is true, but "INNOCENT CIVILIANS"??hummm are civilians those rioting and throwing things at Israeli soldiers!? SUUURE they aren't part of a terrorist organization, but sorry man if you go out there put yourself on the front lines and start evoking the Israeli soldiers by throwing stones at them and shooting at them etc. etc. you are no longer an "INNOCENT" civilian.....

http://www.s-t.com/daily/05-00/05-17-00/517a2c.jpg

these are the so called Innocent CIVILIANS to you correct!? :rolleyes:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/965000/images/_966373_naz_ap300.jpg

AHhh!! YES YES! the innocents ^^ they were walking down the street and SUDDENLY! a bomb came and killed these poor guys FOR NO APPARENT REASON! :lol: :rolleyes: i tell you , you guys are just too fun

[bcbm]

while there is obvious evidence the Jews didn't start this

The first terrorists in Palestine were Zionist terrorists.


they deserved a land of their own

Sure, but not at the expense of hundreds of thousands of people.

[Intifada]

I will reply, I'm just a bit busy with exams at the moment.

[JudeObscure84]

I will reply, I'm just a bit busy with exams at the moment.

are you on the quartely system? What school do you go to that gets out so late? whatever. I'll be waiting.

[Intifada]

I'm in Scotland, and I have three Advanced Higher exams to do.

I'm cramming at the moment.

[Enragé]

You guys are like robots. "free thinkers" my right nut! Israel was a state established under the worst of violence by its agressors. The only agression was that of the surrounding arab states.

dont call me a fucking robot ok

Hear me out

Israel, what is it?
A state founded by European (and some american) jews.
Ah
European?
So they came from Europe?
Yea ;)

How was it founded?
Well they went to palestine and said "This is israel" and they wiped out a couple villages in the process, removed the indigenous people of the land without people, and said "Hurrah! Justice! God has given us back our land!"

So in essence it was a western invasion of an middle-eastern land (though already under british control).

Do you find it weird that the arab nations attacked israel?
I dont
Do you find it weird the palestinians resist?
I dont

now who's the fucking robot



there is no self determination. This is unlike the struggles of the Kurds, Tibetans and the Basques. For the start this was an attempt to eradicate any thought of a jewish state.

What?!

Nonsense!

Its about palestinian self-determination.

Thats it.

and for palestinian self determination you need the destruction of Israel.

pretty simple.

And eradicating thought of a jewish state...whats wrong with that?

States founded on religion are a load of crap. Look at iran, look at israel itself.


Beginning in the early 1970s

At that time saddam supported everything
including the US

and so what?

just because an asshole supports something doesnt mean its fucked


They aslo hijacked several planes and killed civilians on board.

they killed a staggering amount of 1 people and wounded 2.

which was just firing at an Israeli plane and hoping you hit someone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFLP#Armed_attacks_before_2000

how bloodthirsty

if they wanted to they could've killed hundreds
they didnt
yea
some monsters

[theraven]

ont call me a fucking robot ok

Hear me out

Israel, what is it?
A state founded by European (and some american) jews.
Ah
European?
So they came from Europe?
Yea wink.gif


thats because it was euroepan jews who first propagated the ide. many arab and black jews now livethere


How was it founded?
Well they went to palestine and said "This is israel" and they wiped out a couple villages in the process, removed the indigenous people of the land without people, and said "Hurrah! Justice! God has given us back our land!"


what the frick are you talking about? jews who came to israel pre 48 had to buy thier land. I highly doub the ottams or brits were anxoius to see the jews force the arabs off land. after the war ofr 48 a lto of peopel ran a lto of palces, so a lot of land that was once used was no longer, so the state doled it out. usualy how these things work.


So in essence it was a western invasion of an middle-eastern land (though already under british control).

No it wasn't a western invasion. some peolf rom the west immirganted to land they believed was their ancestros to farm and study in it. they weren't there for the plentirfl natural resources


Do you find it weird that the arab nations attacked israel?
I dont
Do you find it weird the palestinians resist?
I dont

now who's the fucking robot


you. still. you don't understand the history, you jsut think "oh this is waht the poele i think are opprsesed say so it must be true"

[Enragé]

thats because it was euroepan jews who first propagated the ide. many arab and black jews now livethere

i know, and im not disputing their right to live there. They should be able to.

Im just saying the existence of israel is an act of agression, its an unlawful occupation in essence of palestine. Just because you call it a "state' and couple it with guilt for WW2 does not make it any less so.


jews who came to israel pre 48 had to buy thier land. I highly doub the ottams or brits were anxoius to see the jews force the arabs off land. after the war ofr 48 a lto of peopel ran a lto of palces, so a lot of land that was once used was no longer, so the state doled it out. usualy how these things work.

yea they did, pre-48. So?

anxious?
more like they didnt care (the brits, ottomans were long gone)
palestine was a land without people for the people without land

after the war of 48 the palestinians were driven out of their homes and their land was taken over by the israelis.


No it wasn't a western invasion. some peolf rom the west immirganted to land they believed was their ancestros to farm and study in it. they weren't there for the plentirfl natural resources

some?
enough to remove an entire people from where they had lived for hundreds of years.

what does natural resources have to do with it?

Point is
westerners moved in, arabs fucked off cuz they had to.


you. still. you don't understand the history, you jsut think "oh this is waht the poele i think are opprsesed say so it must be true"

I have spent hours, days thinking about the whole thing. My original position was that i didnt like either. After much thought i came to the conclusion that the state of israel has no right to exist and that its founding was an act of agression.
Any resistance to such a thing is justified, though i dont always agree with the means, especially when that state oppresses another people so violently, so completely.

[JudeObscure84]

dont call me a fucking robot ok

Ok you are an autonomous carbon based cretin who believes he is going against the system when he is really supporting the most reactionary elements of society since the Nazi Regime.


Hear me out

I am always open to read the posts of someone who is wrong on an issue he knows little about.


Israel, what is it?
A state founded by European (and some american) jews.
Ah
European?
So they came from Europe?
Yea

after the Europeans practically massacred them all. Israel was built on land bought by those "evil Euro Joos" and mandated by the UN.


How was it founded?
Well they went to palestine and said "This is israel" and they wiped out a couple villages in the process, removed the indigenous people of the land without people, and said "Hurrah! Justice! God has given us back our land!"

Wrong. The Peel Commission has excerpt after excerpt of Arabs claiming the land for Syria. The land without a people, had a people first in the form of Syria and then in the form of Transjordan which they adamently rejected.


“There is no such country as Palestine! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria"

- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Peel Commission Report


So in essence it was a western invasion of an middle-eastern land (though already under british control).

In essense it was a legit propriation of unused lands, bought by european jews for the safety of thier people being systematically slaughtered by other Europeans and Arab proxies as well during WWII.


His Majesty’s Government views with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

- Balfour Declaration, 1917, formalized by 52 nations of the League of Nations.


By 1949, the British had allotted 87,500 acres of the 187,500 acres of cultivable land to Arabs and only 4,250 acres to Jews. So the British were not a help to the Jews and which is the reason for the squabs between the two. Palestine’s land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut. About 80 percent of the Palestinian Arabs were debt-ridden peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins.



They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay.”

- John Hope Simpson, Hope Simpson Report 1930



What?!

Nonsense!

Its about palestinian self-determination.

Thats it.

and for palestinian self determination you need the destruction of Israel.

pretty simple.

And eradicating thought of a jewish state...whats wrong with that?

States founded on religion are a load of crap. Look at iran, look at israel itself.

The nonsense is to propogate the elimination of the Jewish state entirely because of biased history touted by anti-Israel, anti-jewish zealots. For any other determination there is no need for the elmination of another state. The Tibetans dont wish to abolish China, The Kurds dont want to end Iraq, and the Basques dont want to wipe Spain off the map!
But all throughout the rhetoric of Palestinian actvism. They have constitantly stated that Palestine involves the extermination of the Jewish state from one end to the sea!


At that time saddam supported everything
including the US

and so what?

just because an asshole supports something doesnt mean its fucked

The whole US supported Saddam and vice versa is over played. France Russia and China played bigger roles than the US. Russia(USSR) alone sent more arms and supplies than all other countries combined.


they killed a staggering amount of 1 people and wounded 2.

which was just firing at an Israeli plane and hoping you hit someone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFLP#Armed_attacks_before_2000

how bloodthirsty

if they wanted to they could've killed hundreds
they didnt
yea
some monsters

You cant even read your own links.


The bombing, with a barometric pressure device, of a Swissair flight bound for Israel, killing 47, on February 21, 1970; for details see Swissair Flight 330.

A total of 53 killed over all. Plus countles injured, millions of dollars lost and all over an eroneous sense of nationalism.



now who's the fucking robot

[Enragé]

probably read it tomorrow, its like after midnight over here

got one question for you

whats the justification for the establishment of the state of Israel and the oppressive policies which go with it?

give me a satisfactory answer and i&#39;ll raise the israeli flag today <_<

oh one thing couldnt resist saying sumthin

"The nonsense is to propogate the elimination of the Jewish state entirely because of biased history touted by anti-Israel, anti-jewish zealots. For any other determination there is no need for the elmination of another state. The Tibetans dont wish to abolish China, The Kurds dont want to end Iraq, and the Basques dont want to wipe Spain off the map&#33;"

Thats because the entire country of spain, china, turkey, iraq doesnt lie within respectively basque country, tibet, kurdistan.

Israel does. All of Israel is palestine

oh and as for not reading my own links
god that was stupid :lol:

blame it on the tiredness

[JudeObscure84]

Thats because the entire country of spain, china, turkey, iraq doesnt lie within respectively basque country, tibet, kurdistan.

Then why were the arabs arguing arguing against the formation of israel because it was part of greater syria. Then today argue that all of israel is greater palestine? All Palestine is, is an attempt to push Israel into the sea.

[Andy Bowden]

How can you complain about Arabs not recognising Israel, when you yourself don&#39;t recognise the existence of Palestine?

[JudeObscure84]

How can you complain about Arabs not recognising Israel, when you yourself don&#39;t recognise the existence of Palestine

I complain because Palestine is a mostly a construct formatted after the 1967 war. Before Arabs would say Palestine was great syria. Palestinians are the same as arabs.

[Andy Bowden]

Well, the people who live in the West Bank and Gaza, as well as the refugees are fairly clear on what their identity and nationality is - and it is not Syrian or Jordan.

[JudeObscure84]

Well, the people who live in the West Bank and Gaza, as well as the refugees are fairly clear on what their identity and nationality is - and it is not Syrian or Jordan.


Right, its now Palestinian because that is the new concept of what they&#39;re told they are. Even though since the start of any occupation the arabs rejected the premise of Palestine to begin with and argued for the elmination of Israel for a greater syria. after 1967 that changed into a greater palestine.

[Andy Bowden]

Of "what theyre told they are"? For someone who backs democracy in the Arab world, allegedly you have a low opinion of Arabs being able to decide their identity independently.

The myth that Palestinians were Jordanians or Syrians was decisively crushed in the 1987 intifada - an independent action by the Palestinians with little if any involvement from the rest of the arab world.

[Andy Bowden]

edit double post.

[JudeObscure84]

Of "what theyre told they are"? For someone who backs democracy in the Arab world, allegedly you have a low opinion of Arabs being able to decide their identity independently.

I have a low opinion of arabs that want to diminish the spread of democratic values in the mid east. I dont look at arabs as a whole when it comes to the Palestinian issue. I support the peaceful democratic palestinians that ask for a two state solution and negate the hawish elements of the Likud Party.



The myth that Palestinians were Jordanians or Syrians was decisively crushed in the 1987 intifada - an independent action by the Palestinians with little if any involvement from the rest of the arab world.

So let me get this straight. The violence that broke over the rumors about Pals being killed by Israelis as an act of revenge is somehow an act of self determination? The violence was carefully planned by the PLO in its offices in Tunisia. The Arab governments have taken to support insurrections within the occupied territories by funding the political factions that want to push Israel into the sea.

[Andy Bowden]

So let me get this straight. The violence that broke over the rumors about Pals being killed by Israelis as an act of revenge is somehow an act of self determination? The violence was carefully planned by the PLO in its offices in Tunisia. The Arab governments have taken to support insurrections within the occupied territories by funding the political factions that want to push Israel into the sea.

You can&#39;t magically create an uprising from an office hundreds of miles away. The fact remains that just about every single human rights group has totally condemned the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and the people in the West Bank have said time and time again that they want the Israelis out.

That is why the Intifada happened - just like the 2001 Intifada, it wasn&#39;t neccessarily all to do with one specific action - Sharon visiting the Mosque - it was the straw that broke the camel&#39;s back.

[Andy Bowden]

edit double post again, there appears to be an error on this board

[theraven]

i know, and im not disputing their right to live there. They should be able to.

Im just saying the existence of israel is an act of agression, its an unlawful occupation in essence of palestine. Just because you call it a "state&#39; and couple it with guilt for WW2 does not make it any less so.


there is nothing unlawful about the state of israel. the people who held political rule over the land doled out part of the land to both sides of the conflict. Israel accepted what was given them, and have prosede.d the arabs rejected it and suffered. Israel is by almost any definion a state. it mantians its soveigtny over its claimed land, with milittary might when nesscary, collects taxes on a regular basis, passes and enforces laws, deals on an equal level with outside countirse and is recogizned by outside countres and by most internatioanl orginzations.




yea they did, pre-48. So?

I imigiane they still do, the differnece is msot of the land in israel is no longer held by absentee landlords in syria.


anxious?
more like they didnt care (the brits, ottomans were long gone)
palestine was a land without people for the people without land

the brits weren&#39;t to anxious to take sides, which is why they abstaisned from the UN resolution on the matter. the ottamsn ruled israel during the early part of zionism, and in fact were more open thnet he brits were.


after the war of 48 the palestinians were driven out of their homes and their land was taken over by the israelis.

really? then please expalin al the arabs in israel?





some?
enough to remove an entire people from where they had lived for hundreds of years.

when two armies are figthing in the general area wheryou live-chances are your going to go running. thats what happened. did some israeli soliders maybe kick arabs off some land? possible-I am niether admitting nor dismissing it, however it was not a widespread or conseious move. and it cant&#39; be qaulfied as an "invasion" because ther ws no invading army. those who fought for israel lived there also.


what does natural resources have to do with it?

I was pointing out a reason why the creation of israel was not impeiral in nautre. Impieralism takes land because it

Point is
westerners moved in, arabs fucked off cuz they had to.

no they clearly did not

QUOTE

you. still. you don&#39;t understand the history, you jsut think "oh this is waht the poele i think are opprsesed say so it must be true"



I have spent hours, days thinking about the whole thing. My original position was that i didnt like either. After much thought i came to the conclusion that the state of israel has no right to exist and that its founding was an act of agression.
Any resistance to such a thing is justified, though i dont always agree with the means, especially when that state oppresses another people so violently, so completely.


if you think irael "opprses another poel so violietny, so compietley" you are the most hoplessly brainwashed person i&#39;ve eer emt

[bcbm]

Palestinians are the same as arabs.


Arabs are not a homogenous entity.

[theraven]

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 20 2006, 11:13 AM

Palestinians are the same as arabs.


Arabs are not a homogenous entity.
perhaps not, but "palestnains" are not diffenr thne jordnains or syriasn...

[The Grey Blur]

They&#39;re no different from the Iraelis either - they&#39;re humans - you shoot them they bleed

I haven&#39;t thoroughly read this thread but I cannot understand how one defends Israel, even from a liberal viewpoint - it is Imperialist, racist and daily commits atrocities against the Palestinian people

It is certainly understandable why groups like Hamas gain support

On the PLFP (or however you spell that acronym :lol: ) getting support from Saddam - I think that is irrelevant, even if it is true (I would think Libya would be a more likely base and ally) - revolutionary socialist groups can&#39;t be extremely picky about their allies. Also, how would the PLFP know of the Kurdish atrocities?

[theraven]

They&#39;re no different from the Iraelis either - they&#39;re humans - you shoot them they bleed

israels mostly speak hebrew, are jewish and so forth


I haven&#39;t thoroughly read this thread but I cannot understand how one defends Israel, even from a liberal viewpoint - it is Imperialist, racist and daily commits atrocities against the Palestinian people

Iserael is imprealist and racist, despite not having an empire and being multi racial...those jews sure are tricky :rolleyes:

[The Grey Blur]

Iserael is imprealist and racist, despite not having an empire and being multi racial...those jews sure are tricky
Israel is imperialist in that it exploits other country&#39;s resources

The Israeli government obviously harbours racist sentiment toward the Palestinians, revealed in the manner by which they degrade them. I recall an Israeli government minister making a joke about starving Palestinians

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Israel is imperialist in that it exploits other country&#39;s resources

yup, did you hear about that Jewish oil drilling company in Saudi Arabia&#33; lol

by the way i know your not talking about Plestine BECAUSE PALESTINE ISN"T A FREAKING COUNTRY&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;


The Israeli government obviously harbours racist sentiment toward the Palestinians, revealed in the manner by which they degrade them. I recall an Israeli government minister making a joke about starving Palestinians

that is the most hypocritical statement iv ever read in this site, WOW&#33; as if the Palestinians don&#39;t harbor more hate/racism against the Jews? why do you think Palestinians suicide bombers blow themselves up in public places where everyone is INNOCENT&#33; for the simple fact that they are Israeli jews....but the fact is , that is not true, Israeli&#39;s don&#39;t harbor hate like the Palestinians do, but of course there is resentment, which is inevitable after years of fighting eachother, but at least their not like the crazy wacko Palestinian mujahadeen, and this is showed by the elections of a publically recognized anti-Jewish terrorist group known as Hamas, which obviously confirms the sentiment of the majority of the Palestinians

[LoneRed]

maybe they do it because ISREAL is OCCUPYING their lnd, and killing their people, and thats the only resource they have at their disposal. Its not a hard concept to understand

[Janus]

As leftists, we support self-determination and are against imperialism. However, we don&#39;t support the reactionary religious groups there. We simply support Palestine&#39;s desire to be free from Israeli dominance and hegemony.

[kingbee]

and this is showed by the elections of a publically recognized anti-Jewish terrorist group known as Hamas, which obviously confirms the sentiment of the majority of the Palestinians

As I replied in another topic (to which you haven&#39;t replied), Hamas does a lot more than just "hate Jews". They have set up welfare schemes in Palestine, and the only other choice, Fatah, are seen as very corrupt. I don&#39;t think people vote for Hamas because they are anti-Jewish.

[theraven]

Israel is imperialist in that it exploits other country&#39;s resources

hey did you hear about that israeli gold mine in south afirca :lol:


The Israeli government obviously harbours racist sentiment toward the Palestinians, revealed in the manner by which they degrade them. I recall an Israeli government minister making a joke about starving Palestinians

wow thats so increidblyr acist, and definetly is an excellnt coutner rot the fact that they have arab mps

[overlord]

Was Oh Dae Su banned?&#33;?&#33;?&#33; HE better not have been as he was the best mind here. Please tell me this is some mistake.

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 06:38 AM
Was Oh Dae Su banned?&#33;?&#33;?&#33; HE better not have been as he was the best mind here. Please tell me this is some mistake.
belgch-it appears he was...oh well..

[kingbee]

Yes, he was truly incredible. I&#39;ve never known someone come kicking and screaming into a topic without knowing so little about what he&#39;s talking about.

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 07:38 AM
Was Oh Dae Su banned?&#33;?&#33;?&#33; HE better not have been as he was the best mind here. Please tell me this is some mistake.
:lol: Obviously, you&#39;re the best comedian&#33;

[The Grey Blur]

hey did you hear about that israeli gold mine in south afirca
Israel annexed Palestine and now exploits it


wow thats so increidblyr acist
I&#39;m glad you agree


that they have arab mps
Any beurgeois Palestinian politician cooperating with the Israeli beurgeois is not representative of the majority of Palestinians who are opressed and regularly slaughtered by this self-same government

[theraven]

Israel annexed Palestine and now exploits it


Israel won pieices of stratgicly nesscary land in wars with thier rulers (jordan, egypt and syria ). the land is minaimly valuable as farm land at most.



agree

good to hear-so israels not racist....glad we&#39;ve estbalished that :)



Any beurgeois Palestinian politician cooperating with the Israeli beurgeois is not representative of the majority of Palestinians who are opressed and regularly slaughtered by this self-same government

no they represnt the isralei citizens who voted fro them.

[overlord]

I want someone from admin to go suck up to Oh-Dae-Su, apologise for banning him and graciously invite him back or this place will never be the same again.

[RedAnarchist]

Overlord, reagrding your signature - if you think there is anything wrong with us using reactionary-made technology for revolutionary discussion, then there is something wrong with you using revolutionary forums for reactionary discussion.

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 05:08 AM
I want someone from admin to go suck up to Oh-Dae-Su, apologise for banning him and graciously invite him back or this place will never be the same again.
Oh sod off will you&#33; Oh-Dae-Su was a mindless idiot and I don’t expect his return any time soon.

Anyway why you are so desperate to have him back was he a sock puppet of yours or something?

[The Grey Blur]

good to hear-so israels not racist....glad we&#39;ve estbalished that :)
Racist Marriage Law Upheld In Israel (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article484122.ece)


Israel won pieices of stratgicly nesscary land in wars with thier rulers (jordan, egypt and syria ). the land is minaimly valuable as farm land at most.
In other words, they annexed Palestinian land and now live on it


they represnt the isralei citizens who voted fro them.
Exactly

[overlord]

Overlord, reagrding your signature - if you think there is anything wrong with us using reactionary-made technology for revolutionary discussion, then there is something wrong with you using revolutionary forums for reactionary discussion.


I just find it hilarious, absolutely hilarious. You guys are amazing. When you protest you coordinate your attacks on McDonalds restaurants with mobile phones&#33; I&#39;ll bet at least some of you guys were &#036;200 Nikes made in China plus &#036;600 jeans. Now, according to Redsatyr&#036;2000 hiring someone is the ULTIMATE crime in a communist state. So when you buy stuff, you hire the shop to hire the factory owner to hire the worker to make some stuff&#33; SOUNDS LIKE 3 LIFE SENTENCES FOR YOU GUYS&#33;&#33; BANG BANG BANG&#33;

[The Grey Blur]

:huh: What&#39;s with the attacks on Redstar amongst cappies?

That&#39;s our job

[Forward Union]

In reply to the first comment. I do not support any palestinian national liberation movement. In my opinion the organisations and their supporters and Sexist, Racist, Nationalist, Religious twats, and should rot away in the middle of fucking nowhere, along with all the other nationalist ****s.

I do however, support any Palestinian and Israeli workers who struggle against the Israeli and Palestinian hierarchies, and bourgeois ideals.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 12:43 AM
So when you buy stuff, you hire the shop to hire the factory owner to hire the worker to make some stuff&#33; SOUNDS LIKE 3 LIFE SENTENCES FOR YOU GUYS&#33;&#33; BANG BANG BANG&#33;
We&#39;re not exploiting anyone though. We&#39;re just trying to survive, that means obtaining food clothes, and modern technology that relieves suffering and saves time. Unlike you, we don&#39;t have the means to crate these things ourselves, so who the fuck are you to criticise us for buying something. Where would you prefer I get my shoes? any why shouldn&#39;t I have a phone??&#33; would you rather I weaved some string together, put two cups on either end and shouted? why the fuck would I do that when I can afford something that has greater potential? your a complete fucking idiot.

When the Capitalists revolted against Feudalism, they used weapons, machines, even tactics all formulated within Feudalism. Swords, muskets, knifes were used to fight the kings forces and the printing press was used to get their ideas out. If we apply your argument to the french revolution for example, you seem to be suggesting that the French revolutionaries were hypocrites for using Feudal technology to overthrow the king.

[theraven]

Racist Marriage Law Upheld In Israel


the law is to prevent a de facto return where arabs in israel just marry non-israleis making them israeli citizesn. it would aslo bea good way for a terrorist to come in



In other words, they annexed Palestinian land and now live on it

whos land now? im pretty sur ei twas jordan, egytp and syrias...

[overlord]

We&#39;re not exploiting anyone though. We&#39;re just trying to survive, that means obtaining food clothes, and modern technology that relieves suffering and saves time. Unlike you, we don&#39;t have the means to crate these things ourselves, so who the fuck are you to criticise us for buying something. Where would you prefer I get my shoes? any why shouldn&#39;t I have a phone??&#33; would you rather I weaved some string together, put two cups on either end and shouted? why the fuck would I do that when I can afford something that has greater potential? your a complete fucking idiot.

Took the words right out of my mouth&#33; :lol:



When the Capitalists revolted against Feudalism, they used weapons, machines, even tactics all formulated within Feudalism. Swords, muskets, knifes were used to fight the kings forces and the printing press was used to get their ideas out. If we apply your argument to the french revolution for example, you seem to be suggesting that the French revolutionaries were hypocrites for using Feudal technology to overthrow the king

Did you just change your signature? Guttenburg was a feudalist? He was a capitalist:

from wikipedia:
In 1455, Gutenberg demonstrated the power of the printing press by selling copies of a two-volume Bible (Biblia Sacra) for 300 florins each. This was the equivalent of approximately three years&#39; wages for an average clerk, but it was significantly cheaper than a handwritten Bible that could take a single monk 20 years to transcribe.

I knew there was an element of greed in it&#33; See there always is, or nothing gets done.

See, you communists want to move into a superior dimension by removing greed. GREEEED IS GOOOOOOOOOD&#33; Everything good that has ever been done has its origin in greed. Try and disprove me&#33; Think of something good&#33;

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 11:04 AM
Took the words right out of my mouth&#33; :lol:

Im glad you agree with my point.


Did you just change your signature? Guttenburg was a feudalist? He was a capitalist:

Well, congratulations on failing to respond to my argument. I can only assume you found no fault in it, and have moved on in an attempt to win &#39;something&#39; unfortunately I can&#39;t grant you that privilege. I am however a bit confused, but I think your commenting on my signature, a satirical take on your own. Your point about Guttenburg may have had a bigger impact if it was in fact he who invented it. It was actually invented in Feudal China, in the 1300s. Your point is obsolete


I knew there was an element of greed in it&#33; See there always is, or nothing gets done.

Well, as you have failed miserably to respond to the point&#39;s I raised, and have instead restated the assertion that Greed Is natural. I challenge you to prove it.


See, you communists want to move into a superior dimension by removing greed. GREEEED IS GOOOOOOOOOD&#33; Everything good that has ever been done has its origin in greed. Try and disprove me&#33; Think of something good&#33;

If I simply try to come up with example of people not being greedy, we have started from an unfair position. We have assumed that Greed is natural and inherent in humans, and that I must prove otherwise. I challenge this assertion and ask you to prove with hard biological evidence that greed is natural. If you can do that, I&#39;ll back down.

[overlord]

Well, congratulations on failing to respond to my argument. I can only assume you found no fault in it, and have moved on in an attempt to win &#39;something&#39; unfortunately I can&#39;t grant you that privilege. I am however a bit confused, but I think your commenting on my signature, a satirical take on your own. Your point about Guttenburg may have had a bigger impact if it was in fact he who invented it. It was actually invented in Feudal China, in the 1300s. Your point is obsolete


I was saying that inventors are capitalists. They expect to get cash out of their invention or they wouldn&#39;t even bother. It is irrelevant if this happens in a feudal era for the feudal overlords collect rent just like any good landlord and buy fine goods from merchants, just like in a capitailist society so to suggest feudalism is divested from the vestry of capitalism is implausible. The person who wants to sell their invention is still a capitalist.

As for your arguement, this is Adam Smith stuff, the baker bakes not out of compassion but does so that he shall receive reward. Do I see you going out to bake bread for some poor smucks in the gutter? y/n.


Well, as you have failed miserably to respond to the point&#39;s I raised, and have instead restated the assertion that Greed Is natural. I challenge you to prove it.


HAHAHAH dems fight&#39;n woids&#33; Are you sure you wish to challenge me, the intellectual sugardaddy supremo of the planet? If so, it is YOU who shall fail miserably for my arguements are so irrefutably correct that all of you comrades put together raised to the power of infinity could not beat them. PREPARE FOR DEATH&#33;

Greed is not natural? You must be kidding&#33; Give me all your money&#33; Will you do so? y/n (gee that was a short one... :( )

[Intifada]

JudeObscure84


If anything it kind of supports the accusation that left wing movements side with right wing radicals when it comes to the middle east.

Anybody notice a little “jump” in the making of that stupid conclusion…

National liberation movements are progressive.


The arabs love to talk big about international law when most of thier countries violate it like no other.

Please, we are “talking” about the Palestinian Arabs, who as you well know have been treated like shit by most other Arab nations.


Anyways, any partition that would&#39;ve resulted in a Jewish state would have included a substantial Arab population. The boundaries were based solely on demographics. The Jewish State was to be comprised of roughly 5,500 square miles, and the population was to be 538,000 Jews and 397,000 Arabs. The Arab State was to be 4,500 square miles with a population of 804,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews.

The Jews of Palestine made up around 31% (through the statistics provided by yourself/the Jewish Virtual Library) of the total population of the land, in 1947. Many of these Jews were illegal immigrants, which is thoroughly ironic.

In fact, as of 1943, the Jewish population only owned 5.8% of Palestinian land (according to A Survey of Palestine which was prepared by the British for the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine in 1946), with the statistic rising to a massive 7% by 1947 (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem by Benny Morris).

The international community was well aware of the fact that the proposed UN Partition Plan for Palestine was in direct violation of the UN’s very own Charter, with respect to the issue of self-determination.

Indeed, the resolution was only passed due to intense US pressure and manipulation of the UN’s member states.

Nothing really changes does it?

Truman was responsible for pressuring the US State Department.

Under-Secretary of State Welles noted that:

By direct order of the White House, American civil servants had to use direct or indirect pressure… to ensure the necessary majority in the final vote.

The US Minister for Defence similarly observed that:

The methods used to pressure and to constrain the other nations within the UN were close to scandalous.

John Quigley, Professor of Law at Ohio State University, notes that:

By this time [November 1947] the United States had emerged as the most aggressive proponent of partition… The United States got the General Assembly to delay a vote ‘to gain time to bring certain Latin American republics into line with its own views.’… Some delegates charged US officials with ‘diplomatic intimidation.’ Without ‘terrific pressure’ from the United States on ‘governments which cannot afford to risk American reprisals,’ said an anonymous editorial writer, the resolution ‘would never have passed.’

With all of the above taken into account, the actual legitimacy of Resolution 181 is highly questionable, to say the least.


Ironically, the arab states that rejected a parititon plan for Israel supported the creation of Pakistan.

Again, you do not have to point out the hypocritical nature of the Arab states to me. This debate is about the Palestinian people and their fundamental rights as human beings.


That is an outright lie. Ben Gurion was unhappy about the Partition over the curtailing of jewish immigrants. I am well aware that there is a whole industry of falsified Israeli quotes so I try not to get play that game but if you insist, Chomsky&#39;s qute is way off.

Mr. Ben Gurion was stating the opposite. There would be no expansion through war but through peace and negotiatians.

I could argue the same about any quote you throw at me.

Anyway, the fact is that Ben-Gurion was both happy and disappointed with the UN Partition Plan, after it had been passed. He was happy because the Jews were given a country to live in, but he was disappointed because the Zionists had – somehow – “lost” almost half of Palestine, and more importantly, because they would have to deal with a sizeable Palestinian minority.

In my heart, there was joy mixed with sadness: joy that the nations at last acknowledged that we are a nation with a state, and sadness that we lost half of the country, Judea and Samaria, and in addition, that we have [in our state] 400,000 Palestinian Arabs.

While addressing the Central Committee of the Histadrut, December 30th 1947, Ben-Gurion stated:

In the area allocated to the Jewish State there are not more than 520 000 Jews and about 350 000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. Such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority. There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%.

Indeed, demographics still play a significant role in the shaping of Israeli policy today. Israel was and still is meant to be a state for Jews only.

The plan to split Palestine into one Jewish and another Arab state was only accepted by the Zionists in the short-term. In the long-term, the aim was to expand throughout the land.

In a letter Chaim Weizmann sent to the Palestine-British high Commissioner, while the Peel Commission was convening in 1937, he stated:

We shall spread in the whole country in the course of time.

Ben-Gurion emphasized that the acceptance of the Peel Commission would not imply fixed borders for the future “Jewish state”. In a letter Ben-Gurion sent to his son in 1937, he wrote:

No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. [A] Jewish state in part [of Palestine] is not an end, but a beginning… Our possession is important not only for itself… through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a [small] state will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country.

In fact, in 1938, Ben-Gurion reiterated that his support for a Jewish state would be only a stepping stone from which the Zionists would expand throughout all of Palestine.

[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state - we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel.

As it was the 20th Zionist Congress, which convened in Zurich during August of 1937, unanimously rejected the Peel Commission Partition Plan of Palestine, because the areas given to the Zionist movement were “too small”.

Why was the rejection of the Peel Commission by the Zionists acceptable, whilst the rejection of the UN Partition Plan by Arabs was unacceptable and wrong?

At this point I shall quote what Ben-Gurion said in a 1938 speech:

Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves… politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.

How apt.


On the issue of the 700,000 refugees:

Actions are louder than mere words.

The fact is that Ben-Gurion, and the Zionists in general, supported “compulsory transfer”, something which is nowadays known as “ethnic cleansing”.

In a joint meeting between the Jewish Agency Executive and Zionist Action Committee on June 12th 1938, Ben-Gurion stated:

With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement]… I support compulsory transfer. I don&#39;t see anything immoral in it.

Moreover, let us take into account what Yitzhak Rabin, a man who would later become PM of Israel, wrote in his diary after the occupation of Lydda and al Ramla, in June 1948:

After attacking Lydda and then Ramla… What would we do with the 50 000 civilians living in the two cities… Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution… and during the discussion at operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda&#39;s] hostile and armed populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route [to the troops who were] advancing eastward.

Ben-Gurion would repeat the question: What is to be done with the population?

Waving his hand in a gesture he said: ‘Drive them out&#33;’

&#39;Driving out&#39; is a term with a harsh ring… Psychologically, this was one of the most difficult actions we undertook.

Israel’s first Minister of Education, Professor Ben-Zion Dinur echoed Ben-Gurion’s sentiments when he declared in 1954:

In our country there is room only for the Jews. We shall say to the Arabs: Get out&#33; If they don’t agree, if they resist, we shall drive them out by force.

Later, Rabin would underline the cruelty of the operation through the response of his soldiers. He stated during an interview with David Shipler from the New York Times on October 22, 1979:

Great suffering was inflicted upon the men taking part in the eviction action. [They] included youth-movement graduates who had been inculcated with values such as international brotherhood and humaneness. The eviction action went beyond the concepts they were used to. There were some fellows who refused to take part… Prolonged propaganda activities were required after the action… to explain why we were obliged to undertake such a harsh and cruel action.

More than 400 Palestinian villages were destroyed by the Israelis in 1948.


[b]There was no deliberate attempt to wage war in order to steal arab land.

Israeli historians have recorded that there was indeed a clear Zionist objective to expel the indigenous non-Jewish Palestinian population in order to achieve “separation” (apartheid) between Jews and Arabs.

Benny Morris, for example, points out that:

Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948].

However, this was never enunciated in any official written format outlining the general expulsion policy. Although “Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders”, it is nevertheless true that:

He preferred that his generals ‘understand’ what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the ‘great expeller’ and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy… But while there was no [written] ‘expulsion policy’, the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war.

According to Israeli historian Simha Flapan:

That Ben-Gurion’s ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve this purpose… most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants… even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence.

One operation, Plan Dalet (D), was indeed written by Zionist forces in March of 1948.

Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe, states that the plan:

Defined a very important principle: any Arab village or neighborhood that would not surrender to the Jewish forces, that would not raise the white flag, would be uprooted, destroyed and the people expelled.

Indeed, Tzvi Shiloah, a senior veteran of the Mapai Party and a former deputy mayor of the town of Hertzeliyah recalled that:

In 1948, we deliberately, and not just in the heat of war, expelled Arabs. Also in ’67, after the Six-Day War, we expelled many Arabs.

Not only were Palestinians deliberately expelled, their villages were destroyed so that they could never return.

During May of 1948, Zionists began contemplating ways of consolidating and making permanent the Palestinian exile.

Benny Morris notes that:

The destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim.

Indeed, Zionist forces carried out massacres of the indigenous population even earlier than May:

On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha… The village was destroyed that night… Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on April 20… Abu Zureiq was completely demolished… By mid-1949, the majority of the [depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable.

Indeed, it was the dire conditions of the Palestinians who came under Zionist tutelage that formed the basis for the intervention of neighbouring Arab nations.

That the Zionists deliberately engineered the exodus of three quarters of a million Palestinians from their homes is a shameful fact.

Such a conclusion has been well documented by the Israeli military historian Aryeh Yitzhaki (Senior Lecturer in the Faculty of Eretz Yisrael Studies at Bar Ilan University (Tel Aviv) and Senior Lecturer in Military History in IDF courses for army officers).

Yitzhaki is very much qualified in this area due to his in-depth acquaintance with IDF archives, on which his conclusions are based.

He observes that:

The time has come to face the ocean of lies in which we were brought up. In almost every conquered village in the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as indiscriminate killings, massacres and rapes.

For many Israelis it was easier to find consolation in the lie, that the Arabs left the country under orders from their leaders. This is an absolute fabrication. The fundamental cause of their flight was their fear from Israeli retribution and this fear was not at all imaginary.

From almost each report in the IDF archives concerning the conquest of Arab villages between May and July 1948 - when clashes with Arab villagers were the fiercest - a smell of massacre emanates. Sometimes the report tells about blatant massacres which were committed after the battle, sometimes the massacres are committed in the heat of battle and while the villages are ‘cleansed’. Some of my colleagues, such as Me’ir Pa’il, don’t consider such acts as massacres. In my opinion there is no other term for such acts than massacres. This was at the time the rule of the game.

In the first phase a village was usually subjected to heavy artillery from distance. Then soldiers would assault the village. After giving up resistance, the Arab fighters would withdraw while attempting to snipe at the advancing forces. Some would not flee and would remain in the village, mainly women and old people. In the course of cleansing we used to hit them. One was ‘tailing the fugitives’, as it used to be called (‘mezanvim baborchim’).

In a typical battle report about the conquest of a village we find: ‘We cleansed a village, shot in any direction where resistance was noticed. After the resistance ended, we also had to shoot people so that they would leave or who looked dangerous’.

This record of the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population is backed up by another Israeli military historian, Professor Uri Milstein. In fact, Milstein goes further than Yitzhaki in his conclusion of the Zionist massacres of Palestinians:

If Yitzhaki claims that in almost every village there were murders, then I maintain that even before the establishment of the State, each battle ended with a massacre. In all Israel’s wars, massacres were committed, but I have no doubt that the War of Independence was the dirtiest of them all.

[Cited in Erlich, Guy, ‘Not Only Deir Yassin’, Ha’ir, 6th May 1992]

A prime example of such a massacre is that of Deir Yassin (April 1948), which was led by PM Menachem Begin.

Another, less publicised atrocity, was that of al Dawayima (October 1948).

It should be noted that history is merely the propaganda of the victors, and the 1948 Israeli “War of Independence” is no exception.