A political programme for Israeli Socialists.

[Andy Bowden]

http://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1948/07/israel.htm

This is probably the most famous Socialist to say Israel should have a right to exist. I disagree with his piece, but it is an interesting and unique viewpoint none the less.

What do other comrades thinkg of the article?

My personal belief is that it is undercut by the fact Israel exists because of ethnic cleansing, and the victims of it are alive today.

[Intelligitimate]

A lot has changed since 1948.

[Sam_b]

Out of the night of national hatred in Palestine, from the ranks of the working class there, there can arise a real Zion – a Middle East in which Jew and Arab build together a workers’ world without exploitation and oppression.

Seems pretty laughable now, seeing the amount of crimes that the Israeli state has done to the people of Palestine.

Any comrades believe that a Palestine and Israel can exist peacefully together?

[LoneRed]

The Two State solution, which people believe to be the only answer, is NO answer. the state of Israel, regardless of whether or not, a phony palestinian state is created will always mean palestinian exploitation.

Ill take a look at the article and post more. Yes indeed things have changed from that time, which is why we must look at the article in its context and try to understand it. but as of now, a two state solution is NO solution

[Andy Bowden]

Most of the arguments I get from Socialist two-staters is that while they disagree with the construction of Israel, it exists as a nation, and has a national identity, and it's people have national rights.

I believe these rights contradict the rights of the Palestinian refugees to return however.

What do other comrades make of the Socialist two-stater argument?

[LoneRed]

its a petty excuse to try to appease both sides, when in reality it only helps israel and its citizens. the palestinians would be screwed over with it. its a sorry attempt at reconciliation.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Andy [email protected] 13 2006, 09:56 PM
What do other comrades make of the Socialist two-stater argument?
You pretty much said it all when you mentioned that the Palestinian right of return is blocked by the two state solution. Anything less is a sop to imperialism.

I'm sympathetic to the argument that the Jews have a right as a nation, and if they collectively decide this it should be supported. But that's not the same as supporting their actions in Palestine, or giving them the right to settle Palestine. What is needed is a non-sectarian national liberation struggle that the PLO concieved of years ago but was unable to implement.

One Palestine would imo provide the only opportunity for the unity of the working class as well, and perhaps is the best way to protect the people there from future disasters. If the Israelis choose to join with the Palestinians in forming a new republic, it will no doubt be much more peaceful than if Israel would fall to an enemy.

I also don't see much basis for Israeli working class efforts, as much of their economy is subsidised by the imperialists, comparatively insulated from market pressures, from what I've read. there was a very good article about this a few years ago in International Socialist Review.

[YKTMX]

The problem with the 'Jewish self-determination' argument is that if Jewish self-determination leads to the suppression of another nation's rights (the Palestinians), then it is not self-determination, it is merely displaced oppression.

No nation that oppresses another can itself be free.

A fundamental truth.

The question is whether or not, in current circumstances, "Jewish self-determination" is possible in the Middle East without the brutality of the Israeli state. That is, is it possible for the State of Israel to be anything other than a colonial, oppressor state? Is it possible, to use the parlance, for Israel to become legitimate?

The answer is probably no.

[Sam_b]

I've always been uncomfortable with the idea of a State being established for one religious group. Sound sridiculous to me.

[omegaflare]

I think that the simple fact that there are Palestinean peace movements and Israeli peace movements is enough to validate the idea that there can be peace in a two state solution. However, I believe that it is necessary for Israel to give up its claims to the West Bank and to the Gaza Strip (oops) and at the same time to allow an international "Atheist" democracy buffer zone established inbetween Israel and Palestine. Of course, the majority of representation should come from these two countries, but also, there needs to be acceptance and tolerance by both countries to be able to go into these areas. Another thing is that we need to drop both Zionist Imperialism and Islamic Anti-Semitism. Not to say that Islam is Anti-Semetic, but a minority interprets is as such, and we see it every day.

Israel has a right to exist independently, but it does not have the right to expand its borders outside of where it belongs. Besides, i'm VERY sympathetic towards Jews (not Zionism) and towards the Israeli Kibbutz Movements. Honestly, I found it ironic that the most successful (arguably) Socialist movement (however bastardized it may be by the incorporation of religion, but hey, at least they are tolerant) in Modern Times. Even more ironic is the key role that Socialism (in the form of Kibbutz) played in the establishment of the State of Israel.

:D :P