Human Nature

[Viva Fidel]

How do people feel about human nature and marxism?

I'm sure many of you comrades have experienced many arguments with others on how "inhumane" communism is and how it goes against human nature.

What arguments do you recieve/give when debating human nature?

I was also curious on if anyone has read this

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/041519147...glance&n=283155 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415191475/qid=1147388253/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-8023607-4164008?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

or any other book on how communism doesnt violate human nature?

--V.F.

[Janus]

There really isn't a whole lot of evidence behind human nature, especially the type that capitalists claim exists.

High School Commie's Guide (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=25500)

[LoneRed]

The best argument is that there is No human nature, at least no single human nature. As Humans that grow up in modern day America have values,beliefs,ideas, waay different than say those that grow up in the congo, or anywhere else. they argue that capitalism goes hand in hand with human nature and thats why its so successfull. then what about those that rebel against the "inhumaneness" or oppression of capitalism. Or what about those primitive communist societies, where gender roles werent subscribed, nor was there a terrible hierarchy, what about that. Capitalism creates false needs, primarily, the need for money and makes it look like a true human need.

Thats all i can come up with right now

[barista.marxista]

This is a common counter-argument to anarchism/socialism/communism, with a very simple answer: there is no evidence, upon a material study of the history of man, that man's human nature is greed; quite the contrary, all evidence supports the notion that man has no concrete nature, but rather his nature evolves with his material environment. Here are two short readings in which Marx explains this:

Marx, from The German Ideology, 1845
"First Premises of Material Method" (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm#a2)

Marx, from Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844
Estranged Labour (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm)

This comes to about 11 pages, and even all of "Estranged Labour" isn't exactly on point, though it explains the relationship between human nature and capitalism. Hope it helps.

[EusebioScrib]

It's not true that humans have an entire nature nor is it true that we have none. There are a few things I outline when I discuss human nature:

1. Being determines consciousness
We all know this one...our environment effects what we think and how we act.

2. It's in a human's self-interest to cooperate with other humans

Human nature is in and of itself, self-centered. A human's goal as an individual is to secrue for itself the means to survive and be happy. However, paradoxally (and dialectically :P ) in order for an individual human to survive and be happy it MUST cooperate on some level with other humans as well as make them happy. If this human doesn't cooperate with them, it must survive on it's own and will surely die. If it doesn't make the other humans happy they surely won't wish to cooperate with the human and it'll have to survive on it's own.

Society isn't based on greed. Everything we've done as a species has been through cooperation. The fact that some humans are at the top and others aren't have to do with material conditions (i.e. there isn't enough to go around for everyone). That's why classes were necessary in slavery, feudalism and for some of capitalism, but capitalist creates such an abundance with overproduction, that there is enough for everyone to go around. When there is enough for everyone, classes become obsolete.

The first class socieites developed because there was no longer enough food to go around. Populations grew to such an extent that it became necessary for some humans to accumulate more than others.

Basically, that's all there is to human nature.

[DrFreeman09]

The nature of human beings, like any other organism, is to survive. Human nature can be summed up into this sentence, and nothing else applies. Some of the byproducts of this are the fact that humans desire power, and that power is easily corruptable.

Greed has nothing to do with it. Greed is simply a symptom of capitalism. The way to survive in capitalism is to be greedy, so accidentally, this becomes a part of "human nature".

Desire for power also comes into context only when there is power to be held. If there is no central power, then there can be no desire to take it. Most libertarian communist theories talk about achieving communism through no aid of a central government, but by an autonomous system, so the capitalist argument that this is against human nature is, if I may, complete BS.

Humans are also fully adaptable to their environments, which would naturally mean that one's nature varies with his/her enviroment.

And, on a basic level, everyone understands that colaberating is the key to success rather than working alone.

[EusebioScrib]

he way to survive in capitalism is to be greedy

Not exactly. For a capitalist to maintain his social position, it's necessary for him to be greedy for more accumulated capital. For a worker? There isn't too much of a motive for a worker to be that greedy. Maybe here and there, but in no way similar to a capitalist.

[DrFreeman09]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 12:47 AM

he way to survive in capitalism is to be greedy

Not exactly. For a capitalist to maintain his social position, it's necessary for him to be greedy for more accumulated capital. For a worker? There isn't too much of a motive for a worker to be that greedy. Maybe here and there, but in no way similar to a capitalist.
Right. I suppose I didn't make that clear. Workers must survive by selling their labour to the bourgeoisie, but the attrocities that pro-capitalists bring up in their arguments about greed all refer to the capitalists and not the workers, i.e. Wal-Mart and McDonald's.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Viva [email protected] 11 2006, 06:04 PM
I was also curious on if anyone has read this

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/041519147...glance&n=283155 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415191475/qid=1147388253/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-8023607-4164008?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

or any other book on how communism doesnt violate human nature?

--V.F.
The list price for this book is $135.00!

Which says a good deal about the author's "human nature". ;)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[RebelDog]

There exists no reason why communism cannot work in terms of human nature. If you ask the ordinary 'man on the street' what human nature is, it is nearly always the case that the reply is that greed is the default human nature. Its always dissapointing to hear this but this belief is highly ignorant and utterly false.

Humans exhibit a range of behavior. We humans (that means every last one of us) are capable of the most heinous, sadistic crimes against other humans. We are capable of disgusting selfishness. We are capable of greed. But that I believe is just a part of the story. We are also capable of selfless acts in which we risk our lives for others and the common good. We are capable of great altruism and sharing. We are social mammals who cannot survive without eachother.

Humans have moralism which is inextricably linked to the epoch they live in. We live in the capitalist epoch and all humans display at least some of the negative characteristics I mention above in varying degrees. But we also display the positive characteristics. Capitalism as bad as it is, is still reliant on a huge collective effort to produce goods, and that collective effort is reliant on the positive characteristics.

If you do not need to ever be greedy to survive why would a human be greedy? If we did live in a communist world the whole reason why humans can be bastards will be removed, in a word, property.

Humans are fantastic creatures and I have great faith in them. I see great compassion, selflessness and sharing right now under the difficult circumstances of capitalist globalisation. Imagine what it would be like in our great communist society. It would be the true civilisation, a history without end.

In my mind all the old arguments that capitalism encourages human nature have been destroyed. Capitalism encourages a part of human nature, but if didn't we'd still be serfs. Communism also encourages a part of human nature, the most powerful part.

[Janus]

It's in a human's self-interest to cooperate with other humans
At certain times yes, particularly if he/she can believes that it will benefit him/herself and allow for survival. Then and only then will cooperation be dominant over individualism.

[Body Count]

Originally posted by redstar2000+May 12 2006, 05:20 AM--> (redstar2000 @ May 12 2006, 05:20 AM)
Viva [email protected] 11 2006, 06:04 PM
I was also curious on if anyone has read this

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/041519147...glance&n=283155 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415191475/qid=1147388253/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-8023607-4164008?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

or any other book on how communism doesnt violate human nature?

--V.F.
The list price for this book is $135.00!

Which says a good deal about the author's "human nature". ;)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif [/b]
:lol:

[Body Count]

Is "Human Nature" even real?

I tend to think that humans are mostly if not completely malleable.

Anyone know what Feral Children are? Kids that have been "raised" by chickens, monkies, wolves, dogs, bears, etc etc etc......what exactly does this say about human nature? To me, it says that human nature doesn't even exist.....at least not in the sense that capitalist try to say it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_children - Theres a few examples here, some pretty interesting stuff....

[KC]

Human Nature is the ability to recognize patterns in one's environment.

[Body Count]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 12 2006, 07:40 AM
Human Nature is the ability to recognize patterns in one's environment.
Can't regular animals do this as well?

[Janus]

Human Nature is the ability to recognize patterns in one's environment.
Are you talking on the macroscopic scale like adaption or on a smaller scale such as looking at things in terms of patterns rather than separated objects? The latter has been proven by biopsychologists and neuroscientists.