Would CHE be happy with Cuba Now?

[R_P_A_S]

For a long time before i opened up my mind, started reading and learning I used to think Che was a bad man. Bad man as how the media portraits Castro as a Bad man. (im not saying Castro's good or bad, just saying) eitherway I assumed this guy was like Fidel Castro. Later I read and heard that he wasn't totally down with Castro after the Cuban revolution. that he was dissapointed in communism after he saw how some people in Russia lived. and thats why he left Cube and went on to BOlivia to fight an other Revolution.

To me it seems tha Che had other ideas and beliefs for the Cuban people. and Castro got power happy and took over.

So my question is. Would Ernesto be happy today with the living conditions in Cuba and with the outcome? with Castro?

Is that what he wanted?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

He would have frowned upon the large inequality in Cuban society.

And he would have frowned upon the jineteros (hustlers), seeing them as a result of the failed economic policy (lack of a more self-sustained economy).

And perhaps also the benefits tourist receive. Like for instance, while cubans have to wait for a train to come by to pick them up, tourists are prioritized first.
He wouldn't have liked the current situation in Varadero.

He would have liked to expand the industry, and use the profits from the tourism industry to actively build a healthy, diverse and triving industry.
That is at least, how I know Che.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 06:48 PM
He would have frowned upon the large inequality in Cuban society.

And he would have frowned upon the jineteros (hustlers), seeing them as a result of the failed economic policy (lack of a more self-sustained economy).

And perhaps also the benefits tourist receive. Like for instance, while cubans have to wait for a train to come by to pick them up, tourists are prioritized first.
He wouldn't have liked the current situation in Varadero.

He would have liked to expand the industry, and use the profits from the tourism industry to actively build a healthy, diverse and triving industry.
That is at least, how I know Che.
see. that's one of the things I don't understand. Communism is made out as horrible if you ask anyone here in america or i guess pretty much elsewhere in the world. But at the same time is seem that is for the "common" wealth of the people, etc. I been reading some of the stuff you guys posted. either way whats the problem in Cuba? they claim they are free and all this good things the revolution brought. Isn't Castro just as bad? I mean I seen this mexican documentary and people are poor. lots of them don't dont have or cant afford decent housing or food. what the hell is the problem? If you complain about Castro or how bad things are you get arrested? huh? I though there was no police?

Im really confused! is Castro just giving communism a bad name? or whats going on?

[Clarksist]

If you complain about Castro or how bad things are you get arrested? huh? I though there was no police?

There are police in Cuba. But you don't get arrested there for complaining about Castro. You might if you pose a terrorist threat, but its not any worse than the US, which isn't an excuse... because it should be better.


Im really confused! is Castro just giving communism a bad name? or whats going on?

Fidel Castro is an elected official who serves as President of Cuba. Cuba is not a communist society, but rather a state capitalist country. The US calls them "communist" becuase its all part of a propaganda system in place to make communism seem "bad".

[Karl Marx's Camel]

You might if you pose a terrorist threat

Or potentially if you write something against the revolution. Not automatically, but there is a chance.

I believe that, in Cuba, there is a fine line between terrorists/people on a mission for the U.S., and the active non-violent opposition, and thus it is not very easy to seperate them.
There is a reason why Cubans are not very open, even very shy about talking politics with people they do not know very well. But if you get to know them, they will not hide their views.

Cuba is not what is normally perceived as a state governed by law. If there was suspicion that Fidel had become corrupt, of course he wouldn't be tried.

[Janus]

I think that Che would've been pretty dissappointed with the present state of Cuba as well. Particularly since the society that he had been working for never really materialized.


Later I read and heard that he wasn't totally down with Castro after the Cuban revolution.
They were still very close friends.


that he was dissapointed in communism after he saw how some people in Russia lived. and thats why he left Cube and went on to BOlivia to fight an other Revolution.
Not really. In fact, Che was quite dissappointed by what he saw in the USSR. He witnessed the major inequities between the party officials and the average citizen and asked his host "So the proletariat eats off of procelain".

[R_P_A_S]

I'm very confused! and I feel stupid so excuse the ignorance!

Let me ask you guys this. and this is not a debate. Im asking questions to things that I'm not sure about and not know about. It has to do with Cuba mainly...

American Education and Media taught us that cuba is a communist country. and that Fidel Castro is an evil dictator who keeps his people under while he is a very wealthy man. People in Cuba are un happy and thats why they leave and come to America. the standards of living are poor, and you aren't allowed to own anything or voice any negative opinions about Fidel and The Country. all this has been said about Cuba, Castro and Communism. which gives a very bad impression.

I'm not saying this is all true and right. Just saying what I've heard and Im sure some of you have growing on TV or in school, or wherever else!

From all this, My idea of communism was a bad one. the image created around Fidel Castro was that he is bad and he's the reason Cubans are poor and flee the island.

Now that Im older I understand that America adds bullshit to their stories. they arent better than Communism or Cuba themselves when it comes to lies.

I don't know maybe I'm just going on and on with out making sence. But I just want to know if thats what Communism represents. not having freedom of speech, and living like most cubans. reguardless of the free education and health care some standards of living are pretty shitty. and by shitty I dont mean you dont have a car and live in small house. I mean you are an old man and in order to have water you have to carrie heavy ass loads of it up to your apartment everyday because the plumming hasnt worked for years, and it hasnt been fixed. and you eat the same white rice every day.

to me that sounds like some harsh times and oppression. who is doing this Castro? or thats just part of Communism?

Is Castro a communist? is this guy really evil?

?

[Dyst]

Hm.

Forget everything you have ever learned about communism.

Read this for some basics:
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=46927

Cuba is not communist.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 09:13 PM
Hm.

Forget everything you have ever learned about communism.

Read this for some basics:
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=46927

Cuba is not communist.
I already read that. Im not saying I believe what I WROTE is what communism is. Just saying what I've learn throught the years.

Cuba is not communist? then what is it?

no one is really answer my questions about fidel.

[Janus]

is this guy really evil?
The US believes him to be evil because his opposes their power and nationalized their industries.



But I just want to know if thats what Communism represents
Communism is a classless and stateless society. Communism is not a totalitarian dictatorship as is portrayed by capitalists.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 09:16 PM

is this guy really evil?
The US believes him to be evil because his opposes their power and nationalized their industries.



But I just want to know if thats what Communism represents
Communism is a classless and stateless society. Communism is not a totalitarian dictatorship as is portrayed by capitalists.
i know im asking a shit load of questions. But if Cuba is so good and free and all this are people so poor? why arent they allowed to stay in their own luxury hotels that the tourist are allow to stay in.

Im not saying Fidel is wrong or Evil. But if he is so good to his people and he liberated them why are there so many restrictions?

like I said im just asking not debating. thanks for all the replies

[Karl Marx's Camel]

and that Fidel Castro is an evil dictator who keeps his people under while he is a very wealthy man.

Fidel is not rich by western standards. But by cuban standards, he lives very well. I do not think many cubans have a giant wide screen TV, for instance.


People in Cuba are un happy and thats why they leave and come to America.

There are different reasons. Family matters, hoping for a better future, unrealistic view of the outside world due to Cuba's relative isolation and U.S. propaganda, etc. There is not a 'single' reason.


the standards of living are poor

In many ways, very true. In terms of happiness, I think a lot of cubans enjoy life in a much different way. I think despite difficulties, cubans have a healthier look at life. We live in a nevrotic society where consumerism is encouraged. They do not.


and you aren't allowed to own anything

False. Cubans own "lots of things". You can even start your own business (but you can't hire anyone to do your job).



or voice any negative opinions about Fidel and The Country

I think its mostly a taboo issue.
If you are a cuban and swear at the communist party of cuba or something like that, the police will most likely just say "Go to hell, *****", and they will leave you alone.



the image created around Fidel Castro was that he is bad
I think Fidel is some bad, some good.


and he's the reason Cubans are poor and flee the island.
Cubans have been poor a long time.

During the Cold War, especially 70's and mid 80's, Cubans lived well. Almost compared to European standards. But the "special period", the period after the cold war, everything went wrong and Cubans had to survive on making milkshake out of potatoes. A lot of Cuban doctors are worried about the young generation who grew up in that period, due to the extreme poverty and lack of healthy food and living standards.



Is Castro a communist?
Who knows. :)


is this guy really evil?
A lot of times I see him as a my grandpa, but other times I hate him and I want to yell at him.

Fidel is not black/white.


A tip from a non-cuban who is obsessed about Cuba:
If you want to learn about Cuba, forget about "communism". Forget about "communists". The official Cuban ideology is much more than a "communist country", and Cuba has been shaped by its problems and advantages.

[Dyst]

You are misunderstanding, we are not defending Cuba (except for that it opposes some large american corporations, I guess).

It is not a communist country (even though it claims to be), it is capitalism regulated quite strictly by the state.

The reason the US "hates" Cuba and spreads negative info about it is that it is in their economic interest to do so.

[Janus]

i know im asking a shit load of questions. But if Cuba is so good and free and all this are people so poor? why arent they allowed to stay in their own luxury hotels that the tourist are allow to stay in.

Im not saying Fidel is wrong or Evil. But if he is so good to his people and he liberated them why are there so many restrictions?
Just because they claim to be socialist doesn't mean that they're claiming to be really "great". As far as I know, there aren't all that many restrictions and some are poor but there is free health care and schooling for all, something that never existed during Batista's regime.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

and some are poor but there is free health care

Cuba did have one of the best healthcare in the world during the 70's and 80's. But not anymore. And officially, yes, Cuba has free healthcare. But in practice? No.

If you are a Cuban and you have a very bad tooth, you will have to pay the doctor (in secret of course) to get an appointment fast. Sometimes this mean giving away 5 dollars, which really is half the monthly salary of a Cuban. This is done everywhere and is a common practice.

Cuban relatives and friends have to bring a lot of things to the hospital, including blankets, pillows, and if I remember correctly, food.

And Cuba lack doctors now, because so many are overseas. A lot of Cubans are jalous, and they wish that they were given as good treatment by Cuban doctors, as non-Cubans.

[R_P_A_S]

I want to go to Cuba! but there seem to be a shortage of Flights from Mexico now days.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Are you from Mexico?


edit: Oh, U.S. citizens are not allowed to travel to Cuba... That is why you said Mexico? Perhaps you can travel from Canada or Jamaica.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 10:01 PM
Are you from Mexico?


edit: Oh, U.S. citizens are not allowed to travel to Cuba... That is why you said Mexico? Perhaps you can travel from Canada or Jamaica.
yes i am mexican citizen! there are flights from cancun. but there arent many from mexico city anymore

[Janus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 09:36 PM

and some are poor but there is free health care

Cuba did have one of the best healthcare in the world during the 70's and 80's. But not anymore. And officially, yes, Cuba has free healthcare. But in practice? No.

If you are a Cuban and you have a very bad tooth, you will have to pay the doctor (in secret of course) to get an appointment fast. Sometimes this mean giving away 5 dollars, which really is half the monthly salary of a Cuban. This is done everywhere and is a common practice.

Cuban relatives and friends have to bring a lot of things to the hospital, including blankets, pillows, and if I remember correctly, food.

And Cuba lack doctors now, because so many are overseas. A lot of Cubans are jalous, and they wish that they were given as good treatment by Cuban doctors, as non-Cubans.
Really? I didn't know that. But it has to be better than before. But they still have free schooling available to all right?

[CLOCKWORK ORANGE]

For fuck sake, can we stop putting words in Che's mouth?

[Janus]

For fuck sake, can we stop putting words in Che's mouth?
Who is doing that?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Really? I didn't know that.

Me neither, until some time ago.


But it has to be better than before.

Yes.

It is far worse than the healthcare during the cold war.

But far better than the healthcare before the revolution.


But they still have free schooling available to all right?
Yeah. Absolutely.

I've heard some rumours that some will have to pay secretly large sums of money in order to get into university. But I think its just a rumour.

[newcommunist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 05:42 PM
For a long time before i opened up my mind, started reading and learning I used to think Che was a bad man. Bad man as how the media portraits Castro as a Bad man. (im not saying Castro's good or bad, just saying) eitherway I assumed this guy was like Fidel Castro. Later I read and heard that he wasn't totally down with Castro after the Cuban revolution. that he was dissapointed in communism after he saw how some people in Russia lived. and thats why he left Cube and went on to BOlivia to fight an other Revolution.

To me it seems tha Che had other ideas and beliefs for the Cuban people. and Castro got power happy and took over.

So my question is. Would Ernesto be happy today with the living conditions in Cuba and with the outcome? with Castro?

Is that what he wanted?
I dont think Che will be happy at all.Che,like me want to free people from corruptionand ditactor but in the end,it seem after Che and Castro defeted Batista,Castro become a dictator and this relly make Che sad and thats why he go to Bollivia.Like me,I also started to think is communist relly fight for the people or just using them to achive their goal that is absolute power.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I dont think Che will be happy at all.Che,like me want to free people from corruptionand ditactor but in the end,it seem after Che and Castro defeted Batista,Castro become a dictator and this relly make Che sad and thats why he go to Bollivia.

I personally do not think he was saddened.

[Le Libérer]

I personally think Che had a world vision, and Cuba was just a small part of it. It was a source of victory for him. Whatever happened between Che and Fidel when he left for Bolivia will never come to light. If there was a rift between Che and Fidel, I dont think it would be long lasting. They had been thru to much together and enjoyed the success of revolution in Cuba. I think if Che hadnt died, he would have come back and had more influence in Cuba, but with him gone, things tooka completely different direction.

[Tanya]

Would Ernesto be happy today with the living conditions in Cuba and with the outcome? with Castro?
NO, of course.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 04:37 PM

Would Ernesto be happy today with the living conditions in Cuba and with the outcome? with Castro?
NO, of course.
thats one of the things i didnt understand about Che Guevara before i read about him. I used to just think. ok so this guy along with Fidel "freed" cubans? Freed them? into what? into Fidel? why would anyone celebrate this guy?

that was then. I know more now about the Cuban Revolution, what it represents and what Che stood for. That's why I wouldnt want him to be happy. I bet he'd be dissapointed.

[Communism]

I dont understand how anybody would know anything about a dead man's perspective, he may have thought it was either good or bad but isnt this thread a little irrelevent, you are discussing something which shall never be known.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Well, personally after reading a lot about him and reflecting and contemplating about his life, thoughts and actions, I feel like I know Che, and I can put myself in his perspective, and I can to a certain extent feel what he feels.

I can tell you only what I feel when I think "like" Che.

I think this is pretty common if you know a person very well or has read quite a bit about a person.

My first post, the "answers" I made in this thread was directly related to Che's opinions and feelings while he was alive. These were things he didn't like when he was alive.

[Sam_b]

you are discussing something which shall never be known.

Does it really matter? I'd guess half of the history page would be killed off if that was everyone's mentality!

To answer the question, I don't think Che would be happy about how things have turned out. Cuba's gone down the road of being a state capitalist country, and thats something I don't think his politics would equate to (surprisingly).

I think what Debora has said about internationalism and the Fidel rift is also pretty much spot-on.

[CLOCKWORK ORANGE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 05:48 AM

For fuck sake, can we stop putting words in Che's mouth?
Who is doing that?
You are. And others.


I think that Che would've been pretty dissappointed with the present state of Cuba as well. Particularly since the society that he had been working for never really materialized.


He would have frowned upon the large inequality in Cuban society.

Are you Che to be saying that :blink: please stop it.

[Comrade J]

I'm going to Cuba this year (from the UK) - can anybody recommend any sites of interest that I may not have heard of/considered?

[Fistful of Steel]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 21 2006, 04:18 AM
I'm going to Cuba this year (from the UK) - can anybody recommend any sites of interest that I may not have heard of/considered?
Really try and don't just do the tourist attractions, stuck to hotel rooms and beaches and tourist traps of historical importance. Really try and see what it is to live like a Cuban, rather than passing it all over. (From what I heard most people from where I live who visit are stay confined and only see the best parts rather than the whole package)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

I dont understand how anybody would know anything about a dead man's perspective, he may have thought it was either good or bad but isnt this thread a little irrelevent, you are discussing something which shall never be known.

Well it isn't exactly a socialist paradise there. Many people are very, very poor. So no, I don't think he'd be happy.

I think Che would've liked a more democratic society.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I think the demoralisation of the Cuban people would make him upset. I don't think he would have liked to see the boyfriends selling their girlfriends to tourists, fathers negotiating the price for sex with their daughters, young girls selling themselves just to get the new fancy clothes, or the obsession for consumerist goods, like fancy cars, by Cubans, etc.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I don't know what Che would think, and somehow I don't care much.

What is important is what we think. Are you happy with Cuba?


In Camaguey there are bicycle repair shops, but they are not allowed to sell spare parts, so they can't repair bicycles, and with a terrible transport system many Cubans must go to work.

They closed the meat marked and vegetable marked, because it was driven private, but they never replaced it. This happened also in the 1960's. Then they closed down a small shop which sold legs from frogs, in Havana, I believe. They never replaced it.

Anyways, now you must visit illegal markets in private houses to buy meat.

People barely survive, and finding food is a puzzle.

There are many Cubans without televisions, refrigerators, food, clothes, etc. But that is not important for the regime.

[Comrade Yev]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 05:26 PM
The reason the US "hates" Cuba and spreads negative info about it is that it is in their economic interest to do so.
You could change that to "The reason the US hates/likes [insert anything here] is that it is in their economic interest to do so."

American foreign policy is all run by economics rather than by morals or by nessessity. For that matter, our domestic policy is like that in most cases too.

[Comrade Yev]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 21 2006, 12:18 AM
I'm going to Cuba this year (from the UK) - can anybody recommend any sites of interest that I may not have heard of/considered?
Try to visit the Sierra Maestra mountains. I've heard Havana is nice, but you probably already knew that. Visit the Ministry of the Interior building, there's some neat art on the side (http://www.globalgayz.com/CubaGalleryB/images/IMG_2315.jpg). You could visit the Museo de la Revolucion, also in Havana.

Also, don't exchange all your money into pesos. I've heard that some places only accept dollars and euros. I'm not sure if this is true though.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Try to visit the Sierra Maestra mountains.
I have read in travel books that it is next to impossible, or at least very difficult and problematic. The guards or something like that, say you will have to get an approval/ticket/whatever, but no one knows where to get one.

[Comrade Yev]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 04:50 PM

Try to visit the Sierra Maestra mountains.
I have read in travel books that it is next to impossible, or at least very difficult and problematic. The guards or something like that, say you will have to get an approval/ticket/whatever, but no one knows where to get one.
Really? I wonder why. :huh:

[CUBA LIBRE]

I think that Ernesto wouldn't be happy.

[Rollo]

Stop kicking a dead horse.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Really? I wonder why.

If it is true, it is probably because the regime do not want to fall in the way that it came to power. It probably does not want angry cubans or CIA-mercenaries to wage a guerilla war from the Sierra Maestra.

[Comrade J]

Sorry, I'd totally forgotten I'd posted in this thread.
Thanks to the people who recommended places to me when I go to Cuba in October, I'll try and take some pictures and video clips of what it's like in Cuba away from the authorities and tourist traps.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Good luck! :)

How long are you going to stay? Where are you going to live? At a casa particular (with a cuban family), or at a hotel?

[Comrade J]

We're only going for a week, we have to stay in a government hotel (because of my dad's job, the UK Govt. will only allow him to stay in a hotel) but if we can, I'd like to stay in a casa particular for at least one night.

We're going to a place close to Havana, I can't remember its name, but it's just out of Havana. It's been a dream of mine to go to Cuba for about 5 years, so this should be a trip of a lifetime, just me and my old man.

I'm gonna get some stuff together before I go, toiletries, toys etc. for the people who need them. I think when I go I'm going to feel really guilty, as my life is much better in comparison, and to see the suffering people... :(

[Viva Fidel!!]

If Che were to still be in Cuba to this day, I believe things would be slightly different. I say slightly because with Che or no Che, Cuba would have still gone through the "special period", strict restrictions would have still been added to the embargo, and all the false propaganda would have harmed Che as well. The Che Guevara "shirt craze" begun after he died, If he was still alive, it would be rare to find people wearing a shirt with his face on it the same way it is rare to find people wearing a Fidel Castro shirt these days.

I don't want to elaborate on what he would have done, because I don't like speaking through the perspective of somebody who isn't alive.


I believe it was NWOG who said that U.S citizens aren't allowed to travel to Cuba. I don't know about the rest of the United States, but here in Miami a certain quantity of CITIZENS are allowed to travel to Cuba. My aunt went last summer and i'm planning to go with my father sometime in Feburary of 2007.

I have family that lives in Cuba, some support Castro and some don't support him. It all depends on how you look at things. Some of them want to come over here and work hard so they can buy whatever they want. The others support Castro because they believe in the revolution and hope that it will still live after Castro's death.

I'm not one to deny it, the situation is bad in Cuba, but it isn't bad compared to the way poor people live in places like the Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, El Salvador and all these other Third World Countries that contain puppet democracies set up by the United States.

With that said, I believe that in a way Che would be proud that the revolution has actually lived on rather than Cuba giving up and becoming another country for the US to walk all over. You have to give Fidel his credit, even after all the hurricanes, embargos, "the special period", and all these problems Cuba has faced, he has managed to remain in power and keep the revolution alive.

Yes, people do risk their lives to leave the country and Cubans take up more than half of the population in Miami. But now think about it this way, if the Dominican Republic was located where Cuba is located (90 miles from the United States) and vice versa, who would take up most of the population in Miami? Dominicans. My point is that people make Fidel Castro look bad by saying "Thousands risk their lives to escape from this brutal dictator", but I guarantee you they wouldn't say the same if Cuba wasn't located where its located because not too many people would flee the country due to the distance.