Zionism

[Enragé]

zionism entails the occupation of a land by one group of people, made possible by the removal of another group of people. This is justified by a holy scripture, thus justified by a load of bullshit.

The state of Israel was created by western imperialist powers who felt guilty over allowing the holocaust to happen, and by doing this they screwed over a people who had nothing to do with it.

I am not disputing the right of jews to live anywhere they want, including palestine, i am however condemning the act of preventing the palestinians from living where they want and oppressing them.

i read somewhere in a thread that some here support the creation of Israel

why?

[Coggeh]

I agree , support for the zionist state of Israel probably came from a sympatiser who watches lots of foxnews who portray's any arab as a terrorist ,one cannot be blamed for accepting this propaganda as it is everywhere and when talk occurs of taking Israel back you hear all these holocaust stories which are viable ....for the people who endured it !
I keep hearing the same sad excuses by the Israeli's when told what their doing to the palestinians , that wasn't us that was our older generation time and time again im hearing this!.For all Israeli's its time to realise that this holocaust and segragation of the Islamic people of Palestine must stop !

[TupacAndChe4Eva]

The incidents at Sabre and Shatila prove that Israel is a terrorist state.

Sadly, the right-wing press in the Western World seem to have a much larger say in the other mediums, such as TV.

Incidents that occur daily in the territories, committed by the IDF and Mossad, go unaired, while there is an outcry because Hamas were Democratically elected!

The mind boggles.

Expect to see some US "intervention" soon. <_<

[Enragé]

they have already intervened ;) guess where the Israeli weapons come from

[TupacAndChe4Eva]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 06:03 PM
they have already intervened ;) guess where the Israeli weapons come from
Yeah, we all know that, co-operation between the CIA and Mossad, etc. Proving it is the difficult thing.

I meant actual physical intervention. They&#39;ll try to starve the elected Government of funds, ans that will fail. An attack against Ameriocan interests will be generated, they will be blamed. The US will then have reason to "fight" the Palestinians.

[Enragé]

i dont think that&#39;d be necessary, israels military is one of the strongest in the world

[Andrei]

It doesn&#39;t matter what technology and weapons Israel has,if it keeps hurting Palestine it will eventualy loose.Israel is an island in the muslim ocean,it&#39;s souranded by enemyes...This is a war they can&#39;t win&#33;

[LoneRed]

The only viable solution right now, is the destruction of the state of Israel, with the creation of a new state called Palestine where arabs and Jews have equal rights, and the palestinians can move back in their land. A two state solution is still theft from the palestinians, and a one-state Israel, is mockery of exploitation of the palestinians

[Guerrilla22]

Anyone else notice that Bill Frist and other GOP leaders keep refering to the West Bank as Judea?

[kingbee]

The only viable solution right now, is the destruction of the state of Israel, with the creation of a new state called Palestine where arabs and Jews have equal rights, and the palestinians can move back in their land. A two state solution is still theft from the palestinians, and a one-state Israel, is mockery of exploitation of the palestinians

Hang on- the only viable solution?

This "only viable solution" would create absolute upheavel, and probably start a new world war.

Israel shouldn&#39;t have been created in the first place. But it is there now. So we can&#39;t treat it and it&#39;s citizens like they don&#39;t exist&#33;

[Delirium]

Originally posted by TupacAndChe4Eva+May 10 2006, 12:47 PM--> (TupacAndChe4Eva @ May 10 2006, 12:47 PM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 06:03 PM
they have already intervened ;) guess where the Israeli weapons come from
Yeah, we all know that, co-operation between the CIA and Mossad, etc. Proving it is the difficult thing.

[/b]
Not really, the U&#036; openly gives huge amount of military and economic aid to israel.

[piet11111]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 11:09 PM

The only viable solution right now, is the destruction of the state of Israel, with the creation of a new state called Palestine where arabs and Jews have equal rights, and the palestinians can move back in their land. A two state solution is still theft from the palestinians, and a one-state Israel, is mockery of exploitation of the palestinians

Hang on- the only viable solution?

This "only viable solution" would create absolute upheavel, and probably start a new world war.

Israel shouldn&#39;t have been created in the first place. But it is there now. So we can&#39;t treat it and it&#39;s citizens like they don&#39;t exist&#33;
hey i would rather see the israeli state destroyed and replaced by a palestinian government over the whole of palestina.

i fully realise that many israeli&#39;s are not to blame for the actions of their government but somehow this line of thought fails to be applied to the palestinians due to the media.
but israel as a country lost its right to exist and needs to be crushed like the facist state that it is.

the only way the fighting would stop is when 1 side is totally defeated because of that i consider it necessary to cut of aid to israel and military support and let israel fight its arab neighbours one last time untill there is a victor.

[kingbee]

i fully realise that many israeli&#39;s are not to blame for the actions of their government but somehow this line of thought fails to be applied to the palestinians due to the media.
but israel as a country lost its right to exist and needs to be crushed like the facist state that it is.

Lost it&#39;s right to exist? I know it has hardly been brilliant, but how can a state have this logic applied to them?

Should the U.&#036; not have the right to exist? How about the U.S.S.R? They weren&#39;t great at human rights either.


the only way the fighting would stop is when 1 side is totally defeated because of that i consider it necessary to cut of aid to israel and military support and let israel fight its arab neighbours one last time untill there is a victor.

Why should they fight until one is the victor? This is mad Darwinism&#33;

Can&#39;t they live to learn side by side? Can&#39;t both of them win?

[Ander]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 06:17 PM
It doesn&#39;t matter what technology and weapons Israel has,if it keeps hurting Palestine it will eventualy loose.Israel is an island in the muslim ocean,it&#39;s souranded by enemyes...This is a war they can&#39;t win&#33;
Israel has won many times already. They&#39;ve kicked serious outnumbering Arab ass in several wars already.

[piet11111]

israel was made out of some sense of guilt from ww2.
since the israeli&#39;s are now effectively prosecuting the arabs that reason is null.

and from my own opinion israel is worse then the nazi&#39;s as they where victim themselfes and are acting exactly the same with the same reasoning as the nazi&#39;s did.

[newcommunist]

A person that support the creation of Israel and said that they a communist well,they not atrue communist because communist figth for equality for all human kind and what the israel do is nothing equal.

[DORRI]

let&#39;s remember this intersting quote from gabriel garcia marquez


...The Zionist theory of Biological space has been based
upon the saying that Jews are people with no land and
Palestine is a land with no people. This was how the
illegal state of Israel has been established in 1948.
And when it has been revealed that there are people
living in Palestine, it was necessary to exterminate
Palestinian people so that the theory shall not be
wrong. This is what has been done systematically ever
since fifty years...

[DrFreeman09]

Ok... Personally, being a Jew, I have Zionist tendencies... with exceptions. I&#39;m not really religious at all, but I do believe that the Jews deserve to use Israel as their homeland, and there are several non-religious events in history that might justify that. However, I also believe that the Palestinians should have their own country, although where this might be is difficult, because Israel is obviously of great religious importance. It is either going to be all Palestinian or all Jews, so if we look at this from a non-religious perspective, an argument could easily be made that the Jews own the land.

However, the current land designated for the Palestinians is not enough, and Israel has illegally used that land for their own purposes, something that I have no support of. It&#39;s a difficult question, but as long as both religions are there, there will be fighting.

[DrFreeman09]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 03:48 PM
israel was made out of some sense of guilt from ww2.
since the israeli&#39;s are now effectively prosecuting the arabs that reason is null.

and from my own opinion israel is worse then the nazi&#39;s as they where victim themselfes and are acting exactly the same with the same reasoning as the nazi&#39;s did.
Let&#39;s not undermine the fact that the Jews haven&#39;t slaughtered 12 million people (6 million Jews and 6 million others). I agree that what Israel has been doing to the Muslims is wrong, but you can&#39;t liken them to the Nazis. To do so is to diminish what the Nazis really were. If you want to label someone, label the Christians who slaughtered thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights a while back... Not to mention the Crusades...

[Enragé]

last time i checked it was 10

"but I do believe that the Jews deserve to use Israel as their homeland"

sure, alongside the palestinians

there should be one palestinian state where jews have the right to live out their lives in freedom.

this presupposes the destruction of Israel

[piet11111]

Originally posted by DrFreeman09+May 15 2006, 01:49 AM--> (DrFreeman09 @ May 15 2006, 01:49 AM)
[email protected] 12 2006, 03:48 PM
israel was made out of some sense of guilt from ww2.
since the israeli&#39;s are now effectively prosecuting the arabs that reason is null.

and from my own opinion israel is worse then the nazi&#39;s as they where victim themselfes and are acting exactly the same with the same reasoning as the nazi&#39;s did.
Let&#39;s not undermine the fact that the Jews haven&#39;t slaughtered 12 million people (6 million Jews and 6 million others). I agree that what Israel has been doing to the Muslims is wrong, but you can&#39;t liken them to the Nazis. To do so is to diminish what the Nazis really were. If you want to label someone, label the Christians who slaughtered thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights a while back... Not to mention the Crusades... [/b]
statistics doesnt make a nazi its one&#39;s acts and the israeli government is acting not too different.


To do so is to diminish what the Nazis really were.
or saying what the zionist currently are.

anyway you should avoid becoming an apologist for israels facist politics.
and the argument that christians killed palestinians not to long ago (and during the crusades) what does that matter ?
does it make israels actions better ? does it somehow make things not so bad ?
and how would you feel if some suicide bomber explains his murderous deed as retaliation for the death of some family members that just happend to be in the wrong place when an israeli apache blows up a car in a crowded street ?

im convinced the anti semitism accusation is now being considered and all i can say to you about that is that my own family was actively involved in hiding jewish poeple on their farm aswell as participating in the resistance during the second world war.
and i for one am glad they did i would have done the exact same thing.

[Wanted Man]

Zionism is racism.

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/zionism.html

[Red Polak]

^ yes it is. The state of Israel is racist also with regards to less rights for non-jews etc.


Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 10:33 PM
i read somewhere in a thread that some here support the creation of Israel

why?
Anyone who opposes the state of Israel is immediately labelled "anti-semetic".

As to Zionists: if they&#39;re real then I vehemently oppose them, no group should have world domination aspirations. Though, I&#39;m still not decided upon whether they&#39;re actually real or not (things like the council of the elders of Zion seem extremely tenuous).

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 02:44 AM
Ok... Personally, being a Jew, I have Zionist tendencies... with exceptions. I&#39;m not really religious at all, but I do believe that the Jews deserve to use Israel as their homeland, and there are several non-religious events in history that might justify that. However, I also believe that the Palestinians should have their own country, although where this might be is difficult, because Israel is obviously of great religious importance. It is either going to be all Palestinian or all Jews, so if we look at this from a non-religious perspective, an argument could easily be made that the Jews own the land.

er...why should they be given a homeland and yet no other group on earth is?

[Wanted Man]

Indeed. The notion that a certain piece of land belongs to a certain group of people, purely by virtue of their heritage, is extremely ridiculous when you think of it. Such a notion is the founding principle of all racism and its results, nationalism and xenophobia, and so incredibly wrong, it redefines "wrong".

[Enragé]

Anyone who opposes the state of Israel is immediately labelled "anti-semetic".

depends on where you live, over here, i&#39;ve said a shitload of times, and they look at me kinda funny but they dont go all like "omg you fucking nazi" :P


As to Zionists: if they&#39;re real then I vehemently oppose them, no group should have world domination aspirations.

do not confuse the neo-nazi myth of ZOG (Zionist Occupational Government) and crap like that with actual real life zionism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

[Red Polak]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 09:11 PM

Anyone who opposes the state of Israel is immediately labelled "anti-semetic".

depends on where you live, over here, i&#39;ve said a shitload of times, and they look at me kinda funny but they dont go all like "omg you fucking nazi" :P


As to Zionists: if they&#39;re real then I vehemently oppose them, no group should have world domination aspirations.

do not confuse the neo-nazi myth of ZOG (Zionist Occupational Government) and crap like that with actual real life zionism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Here if anyone speaks out against the actions of Israel they are "anti-semetic, nazi scum".


ah righto, my mistake. :blush:

I&#39;m still against it, though not quite as against what I thought it was.

[omegaflare]

As both a communist and a Jew-by-Choice, i&#39;d like to point out that there seems to be some degree of error on both sides.

Of course, i&#39;m not going to try to defend the "Rights" of Israel to be a Jewish state, no, I will not do that, but what I will do is try and open the eyes of some of you to the idea that possibly...You&#39;re being anti-semitic?

Sure, I know that it is VERY possible for someone to be Anti-Zionist and at the same time not Anti-Semitic, but there seems to be an alarming trend of Anti-Semitism, be it intentional or not, amongst the left. You&#39;d expect better of the Left, especially one that has felt pride in the idea of being anti-bigotry. People are starting to cross the fine line between Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism. What is especially distrubing is the supposed connection between the Israeli Jewry and the people in positions of power in Israel. What needs to be made clear is that the Jews are not the ones being expansionist in the Middle East, and in fact, there is a growing trend of Anti-Zionism within the Jewish Community.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Red Polak+May 16 2006, 06:03 PM--> (Red Polak @ May 16 2006, 06:03 PM)
[email protected] 15 2006, 09:11 PM

Anyone who opposes the state of Israel is immediately labelled "anti-semetic".

depends on where you live, over here, i&#39;ve said a shitload of times, and they look at me kinda funny but they dont go all like "omg you fucking nazi" :P


As to Zionists: if they&#39;re real then I vehemently oppose them, no group should have world domination aspirations.

do not confuse the neo-nazi myth of ZOG (Zionist Occupational Government) and crap like that with actual real life zionism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Here if anyone speaks out against the actions of Israel they are "anti-semetic, nazi scum".


ah righto, my mistake. :blush:

I&#39;m still against it, though not quite as against what I thought it was. [/b]
I am born and raised Jewish. Religiously, I&#39;m secular with some philosophical ideals.

However, I have NEVER been offended by anti-zionism. I&#39;m more offended by Zionism.

So here you have it, from a "Jew" himself.

Anti-Zionism (in almost all forms) is not Anti-Semitism, and don&#39;t let anyone try to tell you otherwise.

[piet11111]

What is especially distrubing is the supposed connection between the Israeli Jewry and the people in positions of power in Israel.

to my knowledge its required to be "pure blood" jewish to be able to participate in israeli politics.
but im definitly not an expert on israel so forgive me if im wrong.

but indeed it seems that anti-semitism is still present and it pisses me off but i have noticed similar signals coming from the jewish population aswell.
last year a rabbi called his followers to stop seeing non-jewish poeple in order to preserve the "race" purity.
its obvious i was shocked by this statement.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 09:20 AM

What is especially distrubing is the supposed connection between the Israeli Jewry and the people in positions of power in Israel.

to my knowledge its required to be "pure blood" jewish to be able to participate in israeli politics.
but im definitly not an expert on israel so forgive me if im wrong.

but indeed it seems that anti-semitism is still present and it pisses me off but i have noticed similar signals coming from the jewish population aswell.
last year a rabbi called his followers to stop seeing non-jewish poeple in order to preserve the "race" purity.
its obvious i was shocked by this statement.
not true, there are arab politicians in israel. israel has some racist policies in the occupation, the "Law of Return", and some businesses discriminate in hiring. However there isn&#39;t any Nazi-like requirements to participate in Israeli politics...yet

[omegaflare]

Originally posted by CubaSocialista+May 17 2006, 02:43 AM--> (CubaSocialista @ May 17 2006, 02:43 AM)
Originally posted by Red [email protected] 16 2006, 06:03 PM

[email protected] 15 2006, 09:11 PM

Anyone who opposes the state of Israel is immediately labelled "anti-semetic".

depends on where you live, over here, i&#39;ve said a shitload of times, and they look at me kinda funny but they dont go all like "omg you fucking nazi" :P


As to Zionists: if they&#39;re real then I vehemently oppose them, no group should have world domination aspirations.

do not confuse the neo-nazi myth of ZOG (Zionist Occupational Government) and crap like that with actual real life zionism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Here if anyone speaks out against the actions of Israel they are "anti-semetic, nazi scum".


ah righto, my mistake. :blush:

I&#39;m still against it, though not quite as against what I thought it was.
I am born and raised Jewish. Religiously, I&#39;m secular with some philosophical ideals.

However, I have NEVER been offended by anti-zionism. I&#39;m more offended by Zionism.

So here you have it, from a "Jew" himself.

Anti-Zionism (in almost all forms) is not Anti-Semitism, and don&#39;t let anyone try to tell you otherwise. [/b]
True, anti-Zionism does not have to equal anti-semitism, but there is a fine line. That is, when you start questioning the Agenda of Israel in conjunction with all of World Jewry, then it is anti-semitism.

[Fawkes]

It seems to me that a lot of people don&#39;t really realize how much AmerKKKa gives to Israel. 85% of U.S. foreign aid goes to Israel. Also, Israel has the 3rd most powerful military behind the U.S. and U.K. respectively (if you&#39;re wondering, North Korea is 4th). AmerKKKa and Israel are almost intertwined. And of course the u.S. is going to support Israel, the U.S. hates Arabs, especially radical ones. Look at all the money and chemical weapons the U.S. gave to Saddam Hussein to fight the Iranian Ayatollah during the Iraq-Iran War. Yes, Saddam was Arab as well as the Ayatolla Khomeni, but the Ayatollah was much more radical (and more anti-U.S.). Also, back to Israel, remember this, post-1945 but pre-1948, many Jews began immigrating into Palestine. There was very, very little opposition from the Palestinians, they had no problem with the Jews. It wasn&#39;t until the U.K. and other nations decided to create the nation of Israel, with a Jewish government, that the Palestinians, and Arabs in general, began speaking-out. So, this proves that a one-state solution (the one-state being Palestine) can exist. No matter what, a two-state solution can not exist peacefully. Just look at the way Israel is run, it is totally Jew-supremecist based, I mean, they&#39;re even building a wall surrounfing Israel to keep the Palestinians out (which is cutting into even more Palestinian land). Like someone else said before me, no matter how powerful, wealthy, and strong a nation is, they cannot survive when they have an entire peoples against them, some violently against them. Unfortunately for Isreal, there is only one future for their nation and government, and that is its anhiliation. NOT, the annhiliation of the Jewish people, but of the State of Israel and it&#39;s Government.

[TC]

CubaSocialista writes

not true, there are arab politicians in israel. israel has some racist policies in the occupation, the "Law of Return", and some businesses discriminate in hiring. However there isn&#39;t any Nazi-like requirements to participate in Israeli politics...yet


This is not true. Arabs, except Druze, do not serve in the IDF, whereas all Jews do, and are therefore prohibited from recieving the state benefits and services granted to people who have done so, Arabs are also prohibited from getting security clearences and they certaintly can&#39;t participate in any sort of &#39;sensitive&#39; government areas, like being pilots for instance. Many social services, political appointments, participating in public affairs and housing and residency laws prohibit people who have not served in the military from participating.

Additionally Israeli Arabs are banned from marrying Palestinians as they&#39;re prohibited from gaining residency for their spouses. If they leave "Israel" they aren&#39;t permited to return (unlike Israeli jews who can come and go as they please, naturally).

While Arab israelis pay the same amount of taxes, the government services are only extended to Jewish resident areas.

They&#39;re also obviously barred from living in Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Jewish National Fund and Public Domain land are leased only to Jews, Arabs are prohibited from signing leases thus preventing them from living outside of what amounts to Arab ghettos, enforcing an aparthite system within "Israel" as well as the more obvious aparthite system in the occupied territories.

Arab "citizens" of "Israel", unlike Israeli Jews and even foriegners, were subject to universial martial law for decades, afforded no due process and required approval from the (all jewish) military to travel. This remained in force until the 70s, during which time Arab political parties were also banned.

A current proposal by Avigdor Lieberman involves forcibly removing half a million arabs from "Israel" to the West Bank, stripping them of their citizenship and requiring all remaining Arabs to pledge loyality to Zionism or likewise lose their citizenship.

Freedom for all...ALL writes

Yes, Saddam was Arab as well as the Ayatolla Khomeni, but the Ayatollah was much more radical (and more anti-U.S.).

Uh, no. Khomeni was not an Arab he was a Persian. Iran is not an Arab country, they speak Persian not Arabic.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 08:43 AM


Freedom for all...ALL writes

Yes, Saddam was Arab as well as the Ayatolla Khomeni, but the Ayatollah was much more radical (and more anti-U.S.).

Uh, no. Khomeni was not an Arab he was a Persian. Iran is not an Arab country, they speak Persian not Arabic.
When I said that I meant that Khomeini was Muslim, he was a Shi&#39;ite.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by Red Polak+May 15 2006, 06:53 PM--> (Red Polak @ May 15 2006, 06:53 PM)
[email protected] 15 2006, 02:44 AM
Ok... Personally, being a Jew, I have Zionist tendencies... with exceptions. I&#39;m not really religious at all, but I do believe that the Jews deserve to use Israel as their homeland, and there are several non-religious events in history that might justify that. However, I also believe that the Palestinians should have their own country, although where this might be is difficult, because Israel is obviously of great religious importance. It is either going to be all Palestinian or all Jews, so if we look at this from a non-religious perspective, an argument could easily be made that the Jews own the land.

er...why should they be given a homeland and yet no other group on earth is? [/b]
Pakistan, full name: Islamic Republic of Pakistan
U.A.E.: United Arab Emirates
State of the Vatican City also known as the Holy See