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KC
8th May 2006, 21:29
There is a lot of talk on here about 'Leninism,' 'Leninists' and 'Lennies'. There is also a lot of talk about how they apparently "fucked everything up" and "betrayed the people" etc... etc...

So, what is a Leninist? What do Leninists believe? I'm looking for detailed definitions here, and I'm betting a lot of people are going to be wrong, but this should be interesting.

Bonus Question:
1. Can Leninists actually exist outside of the material conditions of 1917 Russia? Is this Marxist?

philosopher
8th May 2006, 22:03
A Leninist is someone who believes he can plan and deliver prosperity single handed to everyone. In some countries he known as “Santa Claus”

Fistful of Steel
8th May 2006, 22:05
A Leninist is someone who follows Lenin. Leninists believe in what Lenin believes in.

Wow, when I put it like that... :lol:

Amusing Scrotum
8th May 2006, 22:07
Well, I suppose it's a complex question....one which likely doesn't have any one answer.

To start with, we'd probably have to identify they key theoretical "principles" that Leninists adhere to. I may miss something out here, but these, as far as I can tell, are Lenin's thesis on Imperialism, Lenin's position on the role of the Party and Party organisation, and to some degree, Lenin's positions on what approach communists should take to practical work (Union organising and so on).

Now, undeniably, within Leninist circles there's a degree of controversy with regards those points, but generally speak, Leninists seem to uphold those three principles....call them the "key" principles of Leninism if you like.

After that, there are a whole bunch of political positions Leninists are required to uphold....I won't even pretend to know all of these, but the one I'd imagine is "most" important, is the defence of the "October Revolution".

After that, of course, it all gets a bit murky. You have Leninist-Trotskyists, Leninist-Maoists and so on; and each of these groups, reckon they have the "correct" understanding of Leninism....often you'll find that within those paradigms, sect X will declare that sect Y aren't "real" Leninists, rather they're crypto-somethingists.

I suppose the jist of you question though, is to determine whether people think someone can uphold Leninist position Y whilst not fitting under the label "Leninist". That, in my opinion, is perfectly possible....but, again generally speaking, if you find yourself agreeing with more and more of Lenin's theoretical positions, then you're probably a Leninist.

I suppose one of the big questions here, is how What is to be Done? is framed. Depending on how much people think Leninism gets its "roots" from that work, in my opinion, really affects what kind of Leninism they promote.

Don't know if this definition is "detailed" enough, but I don't think there's anything unfair here.


Originally posted by Khayembii Communique
Can Leninists actually exist outside of the material conditions of 1917 Russia?

Well, they can and they do.

In my opinion, upholding the political positions from back then (you know, what Lenin's response to X was), is a bit dull; because as we all know, times have changed.

I'd say, a sensible Leninist in the modern-capitalist world, would agree with basic Leninist theory on things like Imperialism, world revolution and so on, but wouldn't get bogged down allying themselves with Lenin's political positions from back then.

There&#39;s a board member, Comrade Om, who&#39;s probably as good a representative as anyone of this type of Leninist. Based on debates I&#39;ve had with him, he thinks highly of Lenin&#39;s theoretical work, but he doesn&#39;t really think what Lenin said about tractor production in 1922 is relevant today. <_<

bezdomni
8th May 2006, 22:09
This term is generally used to decribe what are considered revolutionary Marxists (those who see that the present system must be replaced by a new one), as opposed to reformists (those who believe that the capitalist system can be made "kinder and gentler" - which is not possible&#33;). Leninism is really nothing more than the extension of Marx&#39;s ideas into the age of imperialism (the age of the domination of finance capital and monopolies, and the total subjugation of the colonial world to the will of the major powers).

- From Worker&#39;s International League.

The ideas of Lenin certainly are applicable past 1917 Russia and expand even into today.

Leninism is based on these assumptions:

1) Revolution will occur first in nations that are oppressed by imperialism, as opposed to developed imperialist natioons. For example, revolution will happen in a developing nation, like Cuba before it happens in a developed nation like the United States.

2) A "vanguard" of the proletariat that operates on the principles of "democratic centralism" is necessary to lead the proletariat to victory during the revolution.

3) There must be a mass worker&#39;s party in order for a worker&#39;s revolution to be successful.

4) The Revolution cannot survive in one country alone. Internationalism is crucial to the survival of socialism.

5) A backwards, even feudal country can develop socialism.

I might have accidently left some things out, if I did, I will address then letter.

TO THE ANARCHISTS - There are a million threads on anarchism vs leninism, can we keep this a discussion as to what leninism is as opposed to how leninism fails?

If you want a more "detailed" concept of what Leninism is, I suggest you read State and Revolution by Lenin.

Also; Trotskyism, Stalinism and Maoism all "developed" out of Leninism.

Jimmie Higgins
8th May 2006, 22:23
What I take from Lennin is the need to organize the most radical workers and groups (i.e. the vangaurd of the worker&#39;s movement) into a party that is democratic but also centralized (i.e. if members vote on something, you can&#39;t say well I don&#39;t like agitating in factories, so I&#39;ll just do a study group with some people... or I don&#39;t like general strikes, so I&#39;m going to work even though we voted to have a general strike).

There are many Lenninists who are not very democratic, but overall, I think many critics of lenninism misconstrue Lenninism almost as much as the Stalinists did.

If Lenninism means an undemocratic cadre decides everything for members of the party without any general vote or discussion, then I am against it. If Lenninism means any group of radicals can declare themselves the "vangaurd", then I don&#39;t believe them and I am against them leading the movement.

A vangaurd of workers exists with or without a party; the vangaurd party does not proclaim itself the vanguard, it is up to the majority of workers to decide if that party is worth listening to or not. For example, the RCP could declare themselves the vangaurd party (as it probably does) and call for a general strike in the US... if workers thought they really did have the right ideas, then workers would probably strike and the RCP really would have credability as a vangaurd... in reality, a few scores of people in NYC and SF would strike and the RCP would be humiliated.

OneBrickOneVoice
8th May 2006, 22:25
I think in a short concise terms it&#39;s 1. vanguard revolution 2. A DOP 3. A democratic, collectived workers state. It think Trotskyism is 1 and 3 but 2 is democratic and checked.

LoneRed
8th May 2006, 22:42
DOP is not specific to leninism, Lenin got the idea of DOP from Marx just fyi

Leo
8th May 2006, 22:49
I saw the majority in this site dislike Lenin but Lenin is not the enemy who ruined everything intentionally for creating a dictatorship to rule all. Here&#39;s a brief paragraph about Lenin&#39;s daily life after the October Revolution by Slavoj Zizek.

"Here are some details of the daily life of Lenin and the Bolsheviks in 1917 and the following years, which, in their very triviality, render palpable the gap from the Stalinist nomenklatura. When, in the evening of 24 October 1917, Lenin left his flat for the Smolny Institute to coordinate the revolutionary takeover, he took a tram and asked the conductress if there was any fighting going on in the center that day. In the years after the October Revolution, Lenin was mostly driving around in a car only with his faithful driver and bodyguard Gil; a couple of times they were shot at, stopped by the police and arrested (the policemen did not recognize Lenin), once, after visiting a school in suburbs, even robbed of the car and their guns by bandits posing as police, and then compelled to walk to the nearest police station. When, on 30 August 1918, Lenin was shot, this occurred while he got in a conversation with a couple of complaining women in front of a factory he just visited; the bleeding Lenin was driven by Gil to Kremlin, were there were no doctors, so his wife Nadezhda Krupskaya suggested someone should run out to the nearest grocer’s shop for a lemon... The standard meal in the Kremlin kantina in 1918 was buckwheat porridge and thin vegetable soup. So much about the privileges of nomenklatura&#33;"

Lenin had good intentions, he was trying to do the the right thing but he made big mistakes (He does actually admit that they made lots of mistakes, and they will make lots of mistakes.) His anti-War stand was correct and it is actually still significant but his biggest mistake was being a seperatist in the movement. He went into endless polemics with others, he antagonized and labeled others on extremely minor details. His second main mistake, was the vanguard party, actually believing that a revolutionary elite can achieve the revolution. He had gotten this idea from Bakunin. Actually, despite his &#39;anarchist rhetoric&#39;, Bakunin was far more authoritarian than Marx. Bakunin believed that a &#39;secret society&#39; of conspirators should promote so much violence to make the state disappear and then form a &#39;secret dictatorship&#39; to make sure no one else form a &#39;dictatorship&#39; in the next generations. With his student Nechayev, who was even more crazy about &#39;secret societies&#39; than his mentor, they wrote a document called the &#39;Revolutionary Catechism&#39;, explaining how to make a revolution by disciplined and well-organized conspirators in Russia. Surprised? I&#39;m coming to the best part. Irony of history was that Lenin read this document, and apparently he was very impressed by the method of organization, which he thought could manage to achieve a revolution in Russia. When you think about it, and as we know that Marx did not talk about any vanguard party, this idea definetly came from Bakunin. After Lenin wrote April thesis, he was labeled as the next &#39;Bakunin.&#39; The combination of those two mistakes, which is called Leninism, led to greater mistakes, including the tragic crushing of Kronstadt and Makhnovshchina but it didn&#39;t get any worse than that during Lenin&#39;s time. What is ironic was that in Makhnovshchina, the practice was much closer to what Marx thought for Russia. Marx once wrote: "Everything depends upon the historical background in which it finds itself... If the revolution takes place at the right time, if it concentrates all its forces to ensure the free development of the village commune, the latter will soon emerge as the regenerative force in Russian society and as something superior to those countries enslaved by the capitalist regime" This was exactly what Makhno was (unintentionally) doing&#33;

This is mostly taken from another topic I posted but what the hell. So, those are what I found out and think about Lenin and Leninism.

redstar2000
8th May 2006, 23:12
Leninism: A Radical Middle Class Ideology (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1136115064&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

KC
8th May 2006, 23:19
A Leninist is someone who believes he can plan and deliver prosperity single handed to everyone. In some countries he known as “Santa Claus”

We must reject the evil despotic elven vanguard&#33; :P


Originally posted by Fistful of Steel+--> (Fistful of Steel)A Leninist is someone who follows Lenin. Leninists believe in what Lenin believes in.

Wow, when I put it like that... [/b]

Is this true? Can you really simplify it like that? Marxists are people that analyze current material conditions and apply a theory according to those conditions. If this means that Lenin&#39;s theory is the best one in that particular situation, does that make whoever believes this a Leninist? Am I a Leninist because I recognize the vanguard?


Originally posted by AS+--> (AS)Well, I suppose it&#39;s a complex question....one which likely doesn&#39;t have any one answer.[/b]

Yes, that&#39;s the problem. This is a complex question. However, people here love simplifying it so it&#39;s easier to categorize people (Fistful of Steel&#39;s two-line post, for example).


Originally posted by AS

To start with, we&#39;d probably have to identify they key theoretical "principles" that Leninists adhere to. I may miss something out here, but these, as far as I can tell, are Lenin&#39;s thesis on Imperialism, Lenin&#39;s position on the role of the Party and Party organisation, and to some degree, Lenin&#39;s positions on what approach communists should take to practical work (Union organising and so on).

Now, undeniably, within Leninist circles there&#39;s a degree of controversy with regards those points, but generally speak, Leninists seem to uphold those three principles....call them the "key" principles of Leninism if you like.

After that, there are a whole bunch of political positions Leninists are required to uphold....I won&#39;t even pretend to know all of these, but the one I&#39;d imagine is "most" important, is the defence of the "October Revolution".

After that, of course, it all gets a bit murky. You have Leninist-Trotskyists, Leninist-Maoists and so on; and each of these groups, reckon they have the "correct" understanding of Leninism....often you&#39;ll find that within those paradigms, sect X will declare that sect Y aren&#39;t "real" Leninists, rather they&#39;re crypto-somethingists.


We are all Marxists. If Lenin&#39;s theory applies to a certain set of material conditions, and if someone advocates it in that particular environment, does that make someone a Leninist?


Originally posted by AS

Well, they can and they do.

But are these really Leninists? Calling oneself a Leninist doesn&#39;t make it so. If people follow Lenin&#39;s theory regardless of the material conditions in which they are attempting to apply them, aren&#39;t they unmarxist and therefore unLeninist (as Lenin was a marxist)?


Originally posted by AS

I&#39;d say, a sensible Leninist in the modern-capitalist world, would agree with basic Leninist theory on things like Imperialism, world revolution and so on, but wouldn&#39;t get bogged down allying themselves with Lenin&#39;s political positions from back then.

But how is that Leninist? Isn&#39;t world revolution marxist? Does believing in Imperialism make one a Leninist?


Originally posted by LeftyHenry
I think in a short concise terms it&#39;s 1. vanguard revolution 2. A DOP 3. A democratic, collectived workers state. It think Trotskyism is 1 and 3 but 2 is democratic and checked.

Points 2 and 3 are marxist.


Leo [email protected]
I saw the majority in this site dislike Lenin but Lenin is not the enemy who ruined everything intentionally for creating a dictatorship to rule all. Here&#39;s a brief paragraph about Lenin&#39;s daily life after the October Revolution by Slavoj Zizek.


Please don&#39;t derail this thread. This thread is a serious discussion on what Leninism is; this isn&#39;t a thread about whether or not Lenin was good or bad or unmarxist or anything at all. This thread is specifically about Leninism.


Redstar
Instead of contributing to the thread, I&#39;ll just link to one of my crappy papers

Typical Redstar response.

A FEW ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
Marxists analyze the material conditions and develop and apply theory based on those conditions.
1. Is adhering to a given specific theory (Leninism/Maoism/Stalinism) regardless of material conditions unmarxist? Why/why not?
2. Was Lenin being unmarxist by developing a theory based on the material conditions of Russia? Why/why not?

redstar2000
9th May 2006, 00:21
Originally posted by Khayembii Communique
Typical Redstar response.

It answered your question...at considerable length. In fact, there are hundreds of threads in this forum that answer it.

Most recently, this one...

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=49022


Am I a Leninist because I recognize the vanguard?

Technically speaking, not exactly. But you&#39;re "pretty close". The "leading role" of the (vanguard) party is very much at the core of the Leninist paradigm.


If Lenin&#39;s theory applies to a certain set of material conditions, and if someone advocates it in that particular environment, does that make someone a Leninist?

The Leninist paradigm elevates the "Russian situation" to a universal that "always applies everywhere". Except for the Maoists, of course, who substitute China for Russia but otherwise emphasize the same stuff.


If people follow Lenin&#39;s theory regardless of the material conditions in which they are attempting to apply them, aren&#39;t they unmarxist and therefore unLeninist (as Lenin was a Marxist)?

Claims and counter-claims...and you&#39;re pretty free to pick the ones you like. There&#39;s really no "objective" definition...so self-identification is all you have to go on.

If someone claims to be a Leninist and repeats all the "sacred formulas", I&#39;m willing to take them at their word.

It&#39;s like looking over all the Christian denominations and trying to pick out the "real Christians"...probably can&#39;t be done and there&#39;s little point in even trying.


Is adhering to a given specific theory (Leninism/Maoism/Stalinism) regardless of material conditions unmarxist?

Obviously.


Was Lenin being unmarxist by developing a theory based on the material conditions of Russia?

No...it&#39;s when he extended his theory to "cover the whole world" that he "rose above" objective material conditions.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Amusing Scrotum
9th May 2006, 00:34
Originally posted by Khayembii Communique+--> (Khayembii Communique)However, people here love simplifying it so it&#39;s easier to categorize people....[/b]

Can&#39;t really speak about the inadequacies, perceived or otherwise, of others....in my opinion, Leninism is really a touch to complicated to classify as "good" or "bad".

As a basic analysis, I do agree with redstar2000 that most present day Leninist Parties in the modern-capitalist world are vessels which are used, primarily, to further the interests of the radical petty bourgeois. The ICC, apparently, have some rather good pieces on this; haven&#39;t read any of them yet, but they supposedly present some very good arguments as to why Leninism can be considered, what I think they call, "the left-wing of capital"....and they do this, funnily enough, from a pro-Lenin standpoint.

In my opinion, that goes all the way back to Lenin and the Bolsheviks....but it doesn&#39;t necessarily mean that "all" Leninists are social-democrats "at heart"; and certainly just identifying with Lenin&#39;s theory X doesn&#39;t make one a social-democrat.

Stalinism and Maoism (bar the RCP in America) are virtually dead in the modern-capitalist world and "Orthodox Leninism" doesn&#39;t really represent really represent a significant political force either; which just leaves Trotskyism.

Now whilst more and more Trotskyist Parties seem to be moving further to the right, I&#39;ve detected the "scent" of traditional syndicalist politics emanating from Trotskyist circles. And this, in my opinion, could lead to a split (and not the usual kind <_< ) within the Trotskyist movement itself.

I just realised though, that I&#39;m straying quite a bit from the original point, because, in my opinion anyway, when Leninist Parties move away from traditional Leninist politics, then they move out of the social-democratic hogpen.

When, for instance, the CPGB decided to follow the policy of trying to set up Red Unions, they not only moved away from a traditional Leninist position (the one set out in, I think, Left Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder) but they also, in my opinion, followed a distinctly revolutionary policy suitable for the (then) modern-capitalist world.

It was certainly the sort of policy that British communists were promoting before the 10th (?) Congress when the proposal of setting up Moscow loyal franchise parties was adopted.

Basically, whilst some may think that the theoretical positions are still valid (and they may be), the methods of organisation and organisational proposals are, in my opinion, epoch specific. Applying them to the modern-capitalist world either ends up with the participants moving towards social-democracy or outright lunacy (see: MIM).

Parts of Lenin&#39;s theoretical work may still be valid; but like with some of Marx&#39;s political positions, Lenin&#39;s specific political positions have become, more or less, outdated.


Originally posted by Khayembii Communique+--> (Khayembii Communique)If Lenin&#39;s theory applies to a certain set of material conditions, and if someone advocates it in that particular environment, does that make someone a Leninist?[/b]

Quite probably; or they could slightly modify and give it a whole new name....if they find some use in Lenin&#39;s theories, good on them, but whether they call themselves Leninist or "Knobheadist" doesn&#39;t really bother me.

After all, as you said, "We are all Marxists", which means we should be looking beneath whatever political labels they choose to apply to themselves and seeing what class forces they represent. I, as I&#39;ve said, agree with the ICC that Leninism, in general, represents "the left wing of capital".

Aside from that, of course, this question is purely academic from our perspective....we, after all, live in countries where the conditions are radically different to Russia 1917CE. Which makes Lenin&#39;s positions, mostly, irrelevant to us unless we want to start discussing how best to make the "transition" from a bourgeois democratic revolution to a socialist one.

And really, from my perspective, that discussion is of little interest to me. I don&#39;t plan on travelling to the "third world" and nor do I plan on taking part in a revolution there.


Originally posted by Khayembii Communique
If people follow Lenin&#39;s theory regardless of the material conditions in which they are attempting to apply them, aren&#39;t they unmarxist and therefore unLeninist (as Lenin was a marxist)?

Ask someone from the RCP that question&#33; <_<

As it stands, my opinion of Lenin, is that he was a Marxist of the Kautskyist variety....and whilst he escaped some Kautsky&#39;s blather, he still suffered from "Kautsky&#39;s disease" quite a bit.

But, unlike most of his heirs, he did at least try to think in a critical manner about the world using the Marxist paradigm as his guide. We&#39;ll leave the discussion of the validity, or lack there of, of his theoretical work to another thread.

Aside from that, as I pointed out above, Lenin and co. were fine with imposing franchise parties organised in accordance to Moscow&#39;s wishes on the rest of the communist movement....and from my perspective, imposing the model used in feudal Russia on capitalist America, Britain and so on, was incredibly stupid.

It was, to borrow your phrase, an attempt to apply "Lenin&#39;s theory regardless of the material conditions".


Originally posted by Khayembii Communique
But how is that Leninist?

It possibly isn&#39;t....certainly if one disregarded Lenin&#39;s theories on the role and the organisation of the Party (not vanguards in particular, just Lenin-esque vanguards), then their Leninism would probably be on "shaky ground".

The role and organisation of the Party, is probably the most identifiable aspect of Lenin&#39;s legacy on the left today; and it&#39;s also the thing that most people find most objectionable. So really, if you don&#39;t agree with that, then I think you&#39;d be better off calling yourself something other than Leninist.


Originally posted by Khayembii Communique
Isn&#39;t world revolution marxist?

Other than mentioning it in passing, I&#39;m not aware of Marx making the "world revolution" into the theoretical position that it is given by Leninist-Trotskyists. Certainly Marx didn&#39;t say "unless" there is a "world revolution", everything will go to shit.

Marx thought that should Britain, Germany, France and America have revolutions, then that would be sufficient for the time being....in my opinion, other than Britain, those countries could survive even if they were isolated post-revolution.


Khayembii [email protected]
Does believing in Imperialism make one a Leninist?

Well not Imperialism per se, but Imperialism as in the role of finance capital and the way this means that the revolution will start in the "third world" and spread to the "first world", blah, blah, blah.

Though you can agree with that and not be a Leninist....as I said above, issues about the Party seem to be the most obvious legacy of old Vlad.


clownpenisanarchy
This term is generally used to decribe what are considered revolutionary Marxists....

Do they do revolution before or after they run for Office? :P
________

Ah horseshit, I&#39;ve just written a long reply, I clicked "refresh" and I find, albeit in a shorter manner, redstar&#39;s already taken half my points. :(

Fistful of Steel
9th May 2006, 00:45
Originally posted by Khayembii Communique+May 8 2006, 10:40 PM--> (Khayembii Communique @ May 8 2006, 10:40 PM)
Fistful of Steel
A Leninist is someone who follows Lenin. Leninists believe in what Lenin believes in.

Wow, when I put it like that...

Is this true? [/b]
Well if they didn&#39;t follow Lenin and didn&#39;t believe in what Lenin believed in, I don&#39;t think they&#39;d be a Leninist. Pretty simple.

Janus
9th May 2006, 00:47
Well, they can and they do.

In my opinion, upholding the political positions from back then (you know, what Lenin&#39;s response to X was), is a bit dull; because as we all know, times have changed.
I agree, AS. The times have changed and the conditions are different from Lenin&#39;s period. The workers are much more advanced and seem quite capable of leading themselves (not that they haven&#39;t been all along),which requires a much different approach than the idea of the vanguard party.

KC
9th May 2006, 01:42
Well if they didn&#39;t follow Lenin and didn&#39;t believe in what Lenin believed in, I don&#39;t think they&#39;d be a Leninist. Pretty simple.

It&#39;s not "pretty simple" at all. I suggest that you read Armchair&#39;s posts on this issue, as he actually (and surprisingly) covered it rather well.

When people think Lenin made certain contributions to marxist theory and agree with those certain contributions that he made, that doesn&#39;t make them a Leninist, as Armchair has pointed out so well.

I have repeatedly been accused of being a Leninist by many members of this board. Some of the time perhaps it&#39;s because they see my avatar and identify me as one (which I don&#39;t really care about). But many times it&#39;s people that know my positions on many issues. Am I a Leninist? No. Do I agree with things he has said? Yes. Are these idiot&#39;s accusations justified? Not at all.

There&#39;s a lot of discussion on "Leninists" on this board and I thought I&#39;d start this thread to see what people actually think Leninism is. So far it seems like Armchair is the only one that has a good definition.

barista.marxista
9th May 2006, 02:50
We RAANistas get a lot of shit on this board for being virulently anti-Leninist. And, truth betold, we do a lot of provoking to get that shit, so I&#39;m not saying it&#39;s uncalled for (even though I think the extent of Lennie whining more often than not is undeserved). But I do hold myself as being a good example of what AS was just writing about.

I come from a Trotskyist background, and had a brief stint with Maoism that was unsustainable. Right now, as my avatar declares, I&#39;m an autonomist Marxist. And I strongly oppose Leninism. But I do think much of Lenin&#39;s theory was accurate and applicable. For example, I think his analysis of imperialism was on-track. While it obviously was not the highest stage of capital, his laying out of the mechanics on how it accumulates surplus-value from the third-world, and how it disperses overaccumulation back into the third-world, was dead-on -- in 1917. I think since about the early-mid 1930s, capitalism shifted to a significantly different model of production and accumulation. That doesn&#39;t mean Leninism was wrong -- it means capitalism solved some of its own internal contradictions, creating for itself a mini-aufheben, if you will. Similarly to this, I think the Leninist model of organization in the vanguard party was dead-on -- again, in 1917 neo-colonial/proto-capitalist Russia. The vanguard model was born under the repressive tsarist regime, and served its organizational purposes well under that regime. Its impact, however, must be taken in the same historical context as its creation. History has shown that Leninism is a paradigm that creates modern capitalist states from proto-capitalist and feudal foundations. The stronger Leninist states became advanced capitalist nations -- the "second-world" Leninist states, predominantly in Eastern Europe, became the weaker democracies and autocracies we see today. No where in the world has this shown to be any different.

So, basically, my point is that Leninism, like any theory, methodology, and/or paradigm, is not an all-or-nothing bag. To take it as such is dogmatism, which automatically is anti-Marxist. It is possible to use the applicable aspects, and disregard the rest. For example, I am a Marxist, but I think Marx&#39;s base-superstructure model is simplistic to the point of being useless. I&#39;m much more prone towards more fleshed-out descriptions of socioeconomic dynamics, as such offered by David Harvey, or Toni Negri. Similarly, I disagree with how Marx saw the DofP. While I think a DofP is necessary, Marx&#39;s conception of it, which we can largely gather from his debates with Bakunin and the anarchists, must be taken within a historical context. Marx forsaw the revolution as imminent, believing that capitalism would not be able to sustain itself through crisis. He thought a proletarian "state" would be necessary to further industrial development while retaining working-class power. But we have seen that capitalism has developed itself far beyond what anyone in the 19th Century could&#39;ve dreamed of. So that theory of Marx&#39;s should be disregarded as being only applicable within a historical context, not as a universalized paradigm.

That being said, what I think makes a Marxist is the understanding of capitalism&#39;s mechanics, the belief that humans are species-beings, and historical materialism. If I had to simplify it further, I would say historical materialism is the core of all Marxist thought. Applying this to Leninism, I think the vanguard model of organization is the focal part of the Leninist paradigm. Because many people (myself included) agree with his analysis of imperialism, and many unionists acknowledge the necessity of his kind of union work. But all Leninists have to have their foundation in the vanguard model.

Word, yo.

anomaly
9th May 2006, 03:48
So people who wish to use Vladimir&#39;s Vanguard Party, and his idea of a post-revolutionary state, and his idea of a hyper-state...et cetera, these people are not Leninists?

This is just a bicker of terminology and semantics.

I do think it is a problem that Leninists exist when the material conditions for the use of their tactics have come and gone. But the Amish still exist as well. Go figure. :lol:

Although, KC, if modern day Lennies (those loyal to Vlad&#39;s theories and ideas) are not &#39;Leninists&#39;, then what label would you choose?

Perhaps AS sums it up bests when he says they represent the left wing of capital. Would you prefer this?

Out of simplicity, it seems best to call people who agree with Lenin on the &#39;big&#39; issues &#39;Leninists&#39;.

KC
9th May 2006, 03:53
So people who wish to use Vladimir&#39;s Vanguard Party, and his idea of a post-revolutionary state, and his idea of a hyper-state...et cetera, these people are not Leninists?

This is just a bicker of terminology and semantics.

I do think it is a problem that Leninists exist when the material conditions for the use of their tactics have come and gone. But the Amish still exist as well. Go figure.

You have failed to define what "Leninism" is, yet you use it all the time. Your lumping of people into two groups based on a horribly skewed definition of "Leninism" really is simplistic and ultimately reveals your childish black-and-white view of the world.


Although, KC, if modern day Lennies (those loyal to Vlad&#39;s theories and ideas) are not &#39;Leninists&#39;, then what label would you choose?

Reactionary.


Out of simplicity, it seems best to call people who agree with Lenin on the &#39;big&#39; issues &#39;Leninists&#39;.

If I agree with what Lenin did in Russia in 1917 but don&#39;t think it&#39;s applicable today, does that make me a Leninist? If I agree with some of the things he says, yet agrees with others (including on the "big issues") does that make me a Leninist? Again, you&#39;re not being clear.

EusebioScrib
9th May 2006, 04:10
Armchair defined Leninism from an "un-bias" stand-point, which is rather pleasing to Leninists. To take up a class analysis means your taking up your classes bias on an issue, and that is the only REAL Marxist way.

Leninism, as rs2k said, is a Middle-Class ideology. It is only useable in the third world. Certainly, Lennies exist in the first world, but they have no chance of taking any real power, the workers have advanced past that crap. Leninism is a sneaky tool, almost as sneaky as liberals are. They use Marxist/socialist slogans etc to get working class support for their national bourgeois revolutions: 1917, 1949, Nepal, Venezuela etc. This is the best way to define Leninism from a working class stand-point.

To define a Leninist? Well, besides the ones who openly call themselves Lennies, anyone who adheres to what is said is WITBD?. That is the core of Leninist thought, although, they like to claim otherwise.

Leninism does have some validity, as far as Marxists are concerned. Surely, the theory of Imperialism was correct, although like barista said, it&#39;s not the highest.

Leninism is not right or wrong, as is everything. It is only perspective which counts. From the perspective of the Russian vanguard class from 1917-1990, Leninism did fulfilled it&#39;s purpose by making itself obsolete in that nation. By creating the conditions so that Russia could compete with Imperialist nations etc.

anomaly
9th May 2006, 04:23
Originally posted by KC
Your lumping of people into two groups based on a horribly skewed definition of "Leninism" really is simplistic and ultimately reveals your childish black-and-white view of the world.
How so? Those things are the basics of Leninism. They may have truly been the only options in 1917. But they aren&#39;t today.

So people who still want to use such methods are Leninist reactionaries. I&#39;m glad we agree.

Nachie
9th May 2006, 04:55
Even if I agreed with all of Lenin&#39;s theoretical positions, the man was still a dictator. What&#39;s so hard to understand about that?

Take what you will from whoever you need to. A little Imperialism here, a little State and Revolution there, but come the day after the revolution if you&#39;re unfurling a banner of the guy&#39;s face down the side of an occupied building, I&#39;m gonna spit in your face.

Jimmie Higgins
9th May 2006, 08:45
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 04:16 AM
Take what you will from whoever you need to. A little Imperialism here, a little State and Revolution there, but come the day after the revolution if you&#39;re unfurling a banner of the guy&#39;s face down the side of an occupied building, I&#39;m gonna spit in your face.
I agree... although my understanding was that it was under Stalin that the banners of Marx and Lennin began being posted up everywhere.

chimx
9th May 2006, 09:04
i too agree. state and revolution is a great read, but to extricate lenin&#39;s writing from the actual political implementation is an absurdity given that his writing was in fact one facet of his political praxis and not at all distinct from it. to be a leninist is to subscribe to the totality of lenin, not just the parts you like from s+r.

apathy maybe
9th May 2006, 09:46
As has been noted, there are many different types of Leninist, excluding Maoists, Stalinist or Trotskyists.

In my opinion a Leninist is a person who thinks that what Lenin did was &#39;good&#39;, and that these things could be done again today. A Leninist is someone who agrees with the basic ideological principles that Lenin put forward.

That said, I know self professed Marxist/Leninists who agitate to get their party into parliament. I think that it is easiest to say, if a person calls themselves a Leninist, accept that they are, then ridicule there statism.

wet blanket
9th May 2006, 10:30
So, what is a Leninist?
One who accepts the bolshevik ideology put forth by Lenin in his writings.


What do Leninists believe?
Everything Lenin thought, wrote, and said. :lol:
Seriously though, Leninists generally believe in the rule of a very centralized vanguard party bureaucracy consisting of professional revolutionaries with the correct &#39;line&#39; on behalf of the interests of the working class as a whole. This generally entails complete state-control over most(if not all) industries. They believe that only through the correct leadership, can the material and social conditions necessary for a communist society be achieved.

The level of democracy and the extent of who and what can be recalled by popular vote can vary between the Leninist parties and individuals but the general framework of a party-led social revolution and economic development is consistent.