Holocaust Denial

[Everyday Anarchy]

I've always been interested in the justifications that Holocaust deniers use. How do they explain the concentration camps that you can go to and see today or the hundreds of Jews that have been branded with an identification number?

If anybody has ever debated with such a person, could you please explain this to me? It just seems ridiculously ignorant to deny such an obvious event.


Edit:
I am not a neo-Nazi or Nazi sympathizer! :x

[Don't Change Your Name]

It's all an evil Zionist conspiracy :rolleyes:

[Oh-Dae-Su]

well, recently the only one i can recall is the president of Iran, who truley does believe Holocaust is bullshit, i read a news article about him, in yahoo.com, and it stated some of his reasons but i forgot, if you want you can search for it...

i think that he and others probably just believe that the killing of jews might have been justifiable beause they were considered "enemies" of the state or something, and in fact political killings, that is, mass murders of political dissidents, is not concidered genocide......

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Am not doubting the holocaust happened but what about the holocaust death toll? Is it accurate?

[ColinH]

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 3 2006, 12:10 AM
well, recently the only one i can recall is the president of Iran, who truley does believe Holocaust is bullshit, i read a news article about him, in yahoo.com, and it stated some of his reasons but i forgot, if you want you can search for it...

i think that he and others probably just believe that the killing of jews might have been justifiable beause they were considered "enemies" of the state or something, and in fact political killings, that is, mass murders of political dissidents, is not concidered genocide......
If you read different (and complete) translations of the same speech by the Iranian president, and compare this to what the media chooses to highlight in their articles, you may come out with the impression that he has been unfairly represented. Of course, I am not a Holocaust denier, and from what I read he is not one either. He just doesn't support the state of Israel or the Zionists, and asks abstract questions about its justification with regards to the Holocaust.

[VonClausewitz]

Am not doubting the holocaust happened but what about the holocaust death toll? Is it accurate?

You can probably get put in prison for asking that in certain hyper-insecure European places .... In all seriousness though, it ranges from a few hundred thousand to well over the established 6 million, it really depends on which sources you look at. Obviously people who deny the event outright are idiots of the worst calibre, but it never hurts to ask questions like yours, especially when the event in question still has such huge leverage in the modern world.

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 03:58 AM
I've always been interested in the justifications that Holocaust deniers use. How do they explain the concentration camps that you can go to and see today or the hundreds of Jews that have been branded with an identification number?

If anybody has ever debated with such a person, could you please explain this to me? It just seems ridiculously ignorant to deny such an obvious event.


Edit:
I am not a neo-Nazi or Nazi sympathizer! :x
As far as I know, most of them do not deny the fact that the Jews were taken by force to concentration camps to work as slave labour. They do not deny that fact that as prisoners destined to work for the German economy, they had to have identification numbers. They state that there was not a policy of mass extermination; that the Jews ( and the Gypsies) were taken there to work as slaves, not to be exterminated. And finally they say that the Jews who died in these concertation camps, died because of starvation, diseases etc., as the almost destroyed economy of the last months of the third reich could not provide food or medicine to its slaves.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 03:58 AM
I've always been interested in the justifications that Holocaust deniers use. How do they explain the concentration camps that you can go to and see today or the hundreds of Jews that have been branded with an identification number?

If anybody has ever debated with such a person, could you please explain this to me? It just seems ridiculously ignorant to deny such an obvious event.


Edit:
I am not a neo-Nazi or Nazi sympathizer! :x
There's information on holocaust denial somewhere here, might as well hear it from the horses mouth eh? http://www.n9s.org/ Incase you didn't know this is a Nazi website.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

If you read different (and complete) translations of the same speech by the Iranian president, and compare this to what the media chooses to highlight in their articles, you may come out with the impression that he has been unfairly represented. Of course, I am not a Holocaust denier, and from what I read he is not one either. He just doesn't support the state of Israel or the Zionists, and asks abstract questions about its justification with regards to the Holocaust.

if i read different and complete translations? ok ? sure give me the sources? and ..how many different translations of "Holocaust didn't happen" can there be? :blink: and from what you read he is not a holocaust denier? gee i guess the media really are dicks huh, assholes making the president of Iran look like a radical :rolleyes:

he just doesn't support the state of Isreal, wow doesn't shock me, does racism ring a bell here? "SATE OF ISRAEL SHOULD BE WIPED OUT OF THE MAP", yeah that doesn't sound radical extremist at all... :lol:

ohh that's right, there is probably a different and more COMPLETE translation of that comment, psss what am i thinking :lol: :rolleyes:

[KC]

does racism ring a bell here?

Anti-zionism doesn't mean anti-semitism.

[theraven]

Originally posted by Khayembii [email protected] 3 2006, 07:50 PM


does racism ring a bell here?

Anti-zionism doesn't mean anti-semitism.
wanting to nuke the state of israel is pretty anti-jewish.

[Janus]

Well, it involves rejection of all evidence presented including actual photos and witness accounts. However, there are cases where people play down the figures or where they deny certain aspects of it. For example, a recent British historian was jailed for denying the use of gas chambers in the Holocause while in Austria.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by theraven+May 3 2006, 07:56 PM--> (theraven @ May 3 2006, 07:56 PM)
Khayembii [email protected] 3 2006, 07:50 PM


does racism ring a bell here?

Anti-zionism doesn't mean anti-semitism.
wanting to nuke the state of israel is pretty anti-jewish. [/b]
Nobody has said anything about nuclear bombs. Don't put words in anybody's mouth.

Anyway, there are plenty of non-jewish people in Israel. Dropping any bombs on Israel for anti-semitic reasons would be incredibly stupid, because you would kill a ton of non-jews as well.

Anti-semitism is racism, and racism is not tolerated on this board. None of our members are anti-semitic.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

None of our members are anti-semitic.

wow, you must have telepathic powers, havent you ever concidered that probably people here might not admit that they are homophobic or racist in order to not get their asses banned? how do you know i or anyone else isnt any of these things?

anyways, the guy i responded to was obviously siding with the president of Iran whom i don't care what any of you say but he is obviously ANTI-SEMETIC , maybe the guy was siding with him because he is anti-american, and americans help israel and stuff. But anti-americans are ignorant and pretty racist in my eyes as well, and there is plenty of those here in this forum. Anyway Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world is anti-semetic, they all hate the jews and the state of israel, to tell you the truth i don't understand why the hell anyone opposes the state of israel? why because the palestinians were there? so what! the palestinians have never had a state of their own..and what do you want? a state of palestine instad of a state of israel? than that makes you anti semetic

[Matt_from_California]

Why do communists deny or downplay genocides that happened under communist regimes like those that happened under Stalin, or Mao?

[kingbee]

Because it's an evil world conspiracy....

[kingbee]

wow, you must have telepathic powers, havent you ever concidered that probably people here might not admit that they are homophobic or racist in order to not get their asses banned? how do you know i or anyone else isnt any of these things?

Well to be honest, what are we going to do? If people aren't racist or homophobic on this board then are we supposed to be suspicious of everyone?


tell you the truth i don't understand why the hell anyone opposes the state of israel? why because the palestinians were there?

I don't think it's just because the Palestinians were there. It's also because Israel happens to treat the Palestinian Territories like crap too.


so what! the palestinians have never had a state of their own..

The Palestinians didn't have a state? Because they were part of a) the Ottoman Empire, and then b) British Imperial rule. How could they have their own state while being ruled over?


and what do you want? a state of palestine instad of a state of israel? than that makes you anti semetic

I think that's a very broad assumption, that everyone wants a state of Palestine instead of Israel. I, for one, realise that even though I don't think Israel had legitimacy to be created in the first place at the expense of others, that it is now an established state, but should at least give Palestine independence. Israel has to survive, and anyone who says otherwise is not very practical.

[England Expects]

A friend of mine claims that Anti-Semite is misused when applied to arabs as they are also semitic.

What do you guys think about that?

[YKTMX]

It's probably formally correct. But "anti-semitism" has become so synonomous with Jew hatred that it'd be pointless to try and alter the meaning now.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 07:56 PM
wanting to nuke the state of israel is pretty anti-jewish.
Nobody mentioned nuking Israel. And even if they did, how is that "anti-Jewish", other than the obvious fact that a lot of the people killed would be Jewish?

[Invader Zim]

David Irving (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving)

[Matt_from_California]

You do realize that without the holocaust Israel most certainly would not exist right?

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 10:17 PM
You do realize that without the holocaust Israel most certainly would not exist right?
I wouldn't say so, there was a Zionist movement well before WWII...forgot the name of the certain person who headed it.

[Matt_from_California]

Yes, but their would have been an outrage and they would have been condemned if not for the sympathy they recieved because of the holocaust. Of course Israel generates alot of anti semitism as it is, but can you imagine how much worse it would have been if they had just walked in and taken that land in 1928?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Well to be honest, what are we going to do? If people aren't racist or homophobic on this board then are we supposed to be suspicious of everyone?

dude, thats exactly my point, i was merely responding to Clownpenis who said the following:


None of our members are anti-semitic.

and my only obvious response was how do you know this? do you have telepathic powers? :rolleyes: understand now!? gosh i feel like im in a pre K class..



I don't think it's just because the Palestinians were there. It's also because Israel happens to treat the Palestinian Territories like crap too.

ohhhhh man how sad, the Isrealis treat the Palestinians soooo bad :lol: give me a break, Palestinians go and blow themselves up in buses with kids from colleges, and you expect the Israelis to be all dandy about that? :blink: , please, the Israelis didn't start any conflicts at all, please tell me how the Israelis have treated the palestinians like crap? maybe if they weren't a terrorist society than there wouldn't be check points into your damn community!



The Palestinians didn't have a state? Because they were part of a) the Ottoman Empire, and then b) British Imperial rule. How could they have their own state while being ruled over?

so you think the Palestinians were the only ones in present day Israel during that time? you don't think that there were Jews there? you think that the UN said: "Ohh gee , lets pick this place, and bring all the jews here"... :rolleyes: my point is, that NEVER! in history has there been something as the PALESTINIAN STATE OR KINGDOM BLA BLA BLA!! while Jewish YES!...and my point also is, if the palestinians have always been ruled over, than why do they hate the thought of rule from Israeli's so much? does anti-semitism ring a bell here? hummmm



A friend of mine claims that Anti-Semite is misused when applied to arabs as they are also semitic

this is very true, you want to know who the Palestinians are? they are simple the jews who were converted to Islam, thats all , that's the only difference, same people, different religion...

[Forward Union]

- No evidence for the holocaust, they reject video footage and personal testimony. They certainly have a point when it comes to the lack of Reich documentation, but any rational person can conclude the documentation was destroyed as the war cmae to its conclusions.

- The Officers who confessed were forced to.

- They claim the Death camps were factories for Zyklon B, and that Jews did die, but I think they say about 500,000

[kingbee]

understand now!? gosh i feel like im in a pre K class..


Sorry for misunderstanding. I must be quite the moron, obviously.


ohhhhh man how sad, the Isrealis treat the Palestinians soooo bad give me a break, Palestinians go and blow themselves up in buses with kids from colleges, and you expect the Israelis to be all dandy about that? ,

Do you believe in an eye for an eye? For making the situation a lot worse by dropping bombs, shooting bullets at civilians? Do you know that in the first stage of the intifada that a million bullets were fired by the Israelis?

Is there really much difference between killing innocent people with bullets or by a suicide bomb?


please, the Israelis didn't start any conflicts at all, please tell me how the Israelis have treated the palestinians like crap? maybe if they weren't a terrorist society than there wouldn't be check points into your damn community!

Didn't start any conflicts?!

How about Nakbe, and the stealing of Palestinian land? How about booting Palestinians off their own land, occupying what land they had left, and subjecting them to cruel and inhumane treatment?
And you know why they blow them up? Because they came in and stole their land!

And if they are a terrorist society, then so is Israel!

As I mentioned earlier, is there any difference between killing innocent civilians with either a bomb from a plane, or one strapped to your chest?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Sorry for misunderstanding. I must be quite the moron, obviously.

your forgiven my dear friend ;)



Do you believe in an eye for an eye? For making the situation a lot worse by dropping bombs, shooting bullets at civilians? Do you know that in the first stage of the intifada that a million bullets were fired by the Israelis?

Is there really much difference between killing innocent people with bullets or by a suicide bomb?


eye for an eye, i think im probably split there. The Israelis didn't start this damn thing, when you have suicide bombers what are you supposed to do? business with them? than that means defeat for you, like Putin said : " We don't deal with terrorists, WE CRUSH THEM", and i stand 100% behind that, in this world you can't trust nobody, specially a whole group which literally HATES YOU!! this is true! we all know Palestinians are anti-Simetic (of course not all , but 70%+ constitutes the majority).....it's simple, you want to play rough, will play rough, we don't play by your rules , if you want change play by ours, sorry sometimes the world is not fair...


Didn't start any conflicts?!

How about Nakbe, and the stealing of Palestinian land? How about booting Palestinians off their own land, occupying what land they had left, and subjecting them to cruel and inhumane treatment?
And you know why they blow them up? Because they came in and stole their land!

And if they are a terrorist society, then so is Israel!

As I mentioned earlier, is there any difference between killing innocent civilians with either a bomb from a plane, or one strapped to your chest?

Nakbe? don't really know what that is, stealing Palestinian land? DUDE!!! SHUT UP! Palestine has never existed, and the Israelis have MADE new communites..and in that case it's the UN who is responsible for this "stealing of land"...and subjecting them to cruel and inhumane treatment? give me your evidence please? waiting...

and they blow themselves up because they got their land stolen? gee, i don't see to many Native Americans blowing themselves up, and SHIT! if anyone is going to blow themselves up for land that they got stolen Native Americans should be #1 in the list...dude face the facts, Palestine has as much rights as Cataluña region in Spain of becoming independant, although Cataluña has even more rights, because at least Cataluña was an independant kingdom, BUT PALESTINE HAS NEVER EXISTED!! and because it's the Israelis who govern them now they can't stand it!! BECAUSE THEY ARE ANTI-SEMETIC! simple as that...

and please tell me how Israel is a terrorist society?
and actually YES! there is a difference between killing innocents from a bomb dropped by a plane and by a bomb strapped to your chest...the bomb dropped by the plane is intended to kill military targets and it is in the best wishes of the ones dropping it to not kill innocent civilians, if they do kill it's called "collateral damage", something which is inevitable in the heat of war and battle, if not than go ahead and invent the first bomb that goes after 1 target and explodes in a 1 meter diameter around that 1 person and only kills him :lol: yeah that's what i though...and the other is, if you have a bomb strapped to your chest it is your intention to kill civilians , you know your going to kill innocents, and it is in your best wishes to do so......see the difference? if you don't than you will be forgiven AGAIN! ;)

[LoneRed]

you are failing to take into account, the many,many instances where Israeli soldiers have shot and killed, kids, handicapped people, women, etc... its all out there, you just choose to ignore it.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

you are failing to take into account, the many,many instances where Israeli soldiers have shot and killed, kids, handicapped people, women, etc... its all out there, you just choose to ignore it

ohh defenitaly, im not denying this at all, but like i said, atrocities of war do happen, you don't really have control over this, im 100% sure that some Jews HATE the Palestinians as much as the Palestinians hate them, in fact terrorist acts by Israelis have been commited, like the crazy wacko, Baruk Goldstein who went into a mosque and went on a rampage with an automatic rifle, BUT! that's the difference, the Jews as a society as a whole condem this and so does the government, while the PALESTINIANS ELECTED HAMAS!!! FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!

[Dean]

I support the proposition that Israel become a true democratic nation with decentralization of power and an alleviation of zionist, racist and theocratic policies or that it be destroyed. It is clearly one of the worst, if not the worst nation in the middle east in regards to human rights abuses.

The alleviation of violence is not adequately achieved by further violence; history has, in fact, shown that violence begets violence. So then, only by destruction of a given destructive power, or change within it, can create a fair state of things.

[kingbee]

Nakbe? don't really know what that is, stealing Palestinian land? DUDE!!! SHUT UP!

Nakbe= the disaster in Arabic. When about 700,000 Palestinians were made to lose their homes.


Palestine has never existed, and the Israelis have MADE new communites..

You try telling that to the 700,000 Palestinians who were forced off their land!

Israel have "MADE" new communities? And....?

[/QUOTE]and in that case it's the UN who is responsible for this "stealing of land"...[/QUOTE]

What so the Israelis don't have a hand in this? Do you know that there was a war there?


and subjecting them to cruel and inhumane treatment? give me your evidence please? waiting...

Well done for waiting. Now I shall tell you: the occupation of the Palestinian land by another nation, who put up an illegal wall and by doing so steal even more land off the West Bank; who keep building illegal (by all international definitions) enclaves; by not letting Palestinians in the West Bank dig for water because the 17% of Israelis there want water.... I could go on.



and they blow themselves up because they got their land stolen? gee, i don't see to many Native Americans blowing themselves up, and SHIT! if anyone is going to blow themselves up for land that they got stolen Native Americans should be #1 in the list...dude face the facts,


And you think everybody in the world are robots who act exactly the same for every situation? That there are no variables in factors adding to various situations?



Palestine has as much rights as Cataluña region in Spain of becoming independant, although Cataluña has even more rights, because at least Cataluña was an independant kingdom,
BUT PALESTINE HAS NEVER EXISTED!!

Because it was part of the Ottoman Empire, and then under British Mandate! But even under the British Mandate it was known as "The British Mandate of Palestine"!


and because it's the Israelis who govern them now they can't stand it!! BECAUSE THEY ARE ANTI-SEMETIC! simple as that...

By defintion, they can't be anti-Semitic,because they are Semites themselves.

But maybe they are anti-Jewish. But you tell me, if you had your land taken by a group of people who then proceeded to occupy the rest of the territory that you would be all fine about it?

Also, you make it sound like Israel has some type of mandate for ruling Palestine. They don't govern Palestine, they occupy it.


and please tell me how Israel is a terrorist society?

The society isn't necessarily terroristic. But the acts that the government are just as terroristic as the Palestinians!


and actually YES! there is a difference between killing innocents from a bomb dropped by a plane and by a bomb strapped to your chest...the bomb dropped by the plane is intended to kill military targets and it is in the best wishes of the ones dropping it to not kill innocent civilians,

So you "don't do body counts" either? If a bomb is dropped to kill one (apparent) terrorist in a crowded area, and it kills 30 innocents, is that merely collateral? That is a calculated killing. Does Palestine have any legitimate military targets anyway? They haven't even got an army! Is the general population thus a legitimate military target?

And anyway, would you call invasions of the refugee camps "collateral"?


if not than go ahead and invent the first bomb that goes after 1 target and explodes in a 1 meter diameter around that 1 person and only kills him* yeah that's what i though...

This is politics, not fantasy.


and the other is, if you have a bomb strapped to your chest it is your intention to kill civilians , you know your going to kill innocents, and it is in your best wishes to do so......

And it is the same with dropping bombs onto crowded areas! Thousands of more Palestinians have died in this conflict, because of these ridiculous "terrorist" acts!


see the difference? if you don't than you will be forgiven AGAIN!

I see a difference. But I argue against it. Because I don't agree.

Oh, and stop being so childish.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Nakbe= the disaster in Arabic. When about 700,000 Palestinians were made to lose their homes.

well was this done out of the blue? just because Israel said, ohh ok, today we are going to move 700thousand Palestinians out of their home? i doubt it....another question, was this "Nakbe" done after or before the 1960's war with the Muslim Wordl? of course it was probably done after the freaking Muslim world came to fuck with Israel, and Israel repelled them off...you wanted to pick a fight, so you got one...the Palestinians were of course probably rooting for Egypt , Lebanon, etc...well what do you expect Israel to do? do you want 700 thousand enemies ina a country the size of New Jersey or something? i doubt that.....of course it is kind of wrong, but dude imagine Luxembourg, being attacked by France, Holland, Germany etc..and they win, if there are any french or dutch or german citizens in Luxembourg, they will become under strong scrutiny , it's only natural...plus these damn Palestinians are overly fanatic and are dangerous in Israel, Iceland, and Mongolia anywhere you put them...


You try telling that to the 700,000 Palestinians who were forced off their land!

i could tell it to 700million, the truth is the truth! :unsure: sooo whats your point?


What so the Israelis don't have a hand in this? Do you know that there was a war there?

umm, no i haven't been aware of the fact that after WW2 there was a War in present day Israel? :blink:



Now I shall tell you: the occupation of the Palestinian land by another nation, who put up an illegal wall and by doing so steal even more land off the West Bank; who keep building illegal (by all international definitions) enclaves; by not letting Palestinians in the West Bank dig for water because the 17% of Israelis there want water.... I could go on.

so these are the atrocities commited by the Jews? lmao, occupation by another nation? OMG!! how many times do i have to say PALESTINE HAS NEVER BEEN A NATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! dammit......and wow occuption, how many groups of people can't relate to that? but at least they have been independant by themselves, the Palestinians haven't !! and a wall? YES! of course, if you have terrorists in your community, we might as well keep you off, you don't like it? THAN STOP HARBORING TORRORISTS DAMMIT!!! that's what you get for acting the way you act....don't feel sorry now, actions have consequences...


And you think everybody in the world are robots who act exactly the same for every situation? That there are no variables in factors adding to various situations?

what are you talking about dude? All of the Americas, Tibet, the aboriginies from Australia, The Galicians /Basques/and Catalans in Spain, all have more rights than the Palestinians, and even so they don't commit suicide, even the Basques who have a terrorist group instead of blowing bombs (because they don't have suicide bombers) in a public bus, they blow it in front of a police station, and they blow up a police car, at least they have that dicency....




Because it was part of the Ottoman Empire, and then under British Mandate! But even under the British Mandate it was known as "The British Mandate of Palestine"!

and before, they were part of something else, and before and before, and if you go back , they were the same Jews with King David.......so? whats your point? the fact is they don't have the right, in fact the Jews have the right over the Palestinians land, because Judea was taken by Muslim invaders....so deal with it..



But maybe they are anti-Jewish. But you tell me, if you had your land taken by a group of people who then proceeded to occupy the rest of the territory that you would be all fine about it?

Also, you make it sound like Israel has some type of mandate for ruling Palestine. They don't govern Palestine, they occupy it.


yes they are anti-Jewish, and sure i wouldn't be fine about it, but if my people don't have any rights over the land what are my options? at least here the Indians have their own reservations, but im sure the Palestinians don't want that.....and actually yes, Israel does have a mandate for ruling the Palestinan land, because they are the historic people of these lands, even from before the biblical times, it's like saying the Brits should not rule over Britain? hello, they have always been the historical people of Judea, and present day Israel...



So you "don't do body counts" either? If a bomb is dropped to kill one (apparent) terrorist in a crowded area, and it kills 30 innocents, is that merely collateral? That is a calculated killing.

sure, but like i said, if your society harbors terrorism and terrorists, YOU ASKED FOR IT!!!


Does Palestine have any legitimate military targets anyway? They haven't even got an army! Is the general population thus a legitimate military target?

are you serious? :rolleyes: , dude the Palestinians have their own police and everything, and how about HAMAS! for a start! they are the obvious main targets, and other leaders of other radical groups throughout the Palestinian community....for example the killings of 2 Hamas co founders: Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and Sheikh Ahmed Ismail Yassin , of course this was done directed to them, and they are obvious targets, with no collateral damage that i know off, and the Palestinian retribussion is the bombing of public caffes and busses, how great huh, that's such a great deed don't you think kingbee? :angry: make me sick...


And anyway, would you call invasions of the refugee camps "collateral

as far as i know nobody was killed...



This is politics, not fantasy.

EXACTLY!!! so accept the fact that collateral damage is inevitable!!!!!


And it is the same with dropping bombs onto crowded areas! Thousands of more Palestinians have died in this conflict, because of these ridiculous "terrorist" acts!

not true, give me the evidence of the thousands of Palestinians that have been killed by Israelis??? as far as i know at least 10 are killed each time a freaking Palestinian blows himself up....at least the Israelis target military targets, Palestinians have in mind that they want to target women , children :angry:


I see a difference. But I argue against it. Because I don't agree.

how could you not agree?? its about intention, your own personal preference and interest, what you really do want the outcome to be, that's where the difference lies...of course a bomb is a bomb it will kill anybody, but it's those who use it , their intentions that is different, i don't want innocents to die, while thats your goal...

[kingbee]

well was this done out of the blue? just because Israel said, ohh ok, today we are going to move 700thousand Palestinians out of their home? i doubt it....another question, was this "Nakbe" done after or before the 1960's war with the Muslim Wordl? of course it was probably done after the freaking Muslim world came to fuck with Israel, and Israel repelled them off...you wanted to pick a fight, so you got one...the Palestinians were of course probably rooting for Egypt , Lebanon, etc...

Maybe you should read up on a topic before debating it?

This was in 1947, when the Jews/Israelis came in, and war was declared between the Palestinians and them.

So this wasn't "after the 60's" when the Muslim world decided "to fuck with Israel".



well what do you expect Israel to do? do you want 700 thousand enemies ina a country the size of New Jersey or something? i doubt that.....of course it is kind of wrong, but dude imagine Luxembourg, being attacked by France, Holland, Germany etc..and they win, if there are any french or dutch or german citizens in Luxembourg, they will become under strong scrutiny , it's only natural...plus these damn Palestinians are overly fanatic and are dangerous in Israel, Iceland, and Mongolia anywhere you put them...


Christ. You don't care about people do you?

Those people are civilians, not combatants! Can you just expel people like that?

And give me proof that all Palestinians are "overly fanatical". Go on, all Palestinians.



You try telling that to the 700,000 Palestinians who were forced off their land!

i could tell it to 700million, the truth is the truth! :unsure: sooo whats your point?

My point is that if 700,000 (not million) people live in an area then they have obviously got a right to living there.


umm, no i haven't been aware of the fact that after WW2 there was a War in present day Israel? :blink:

So maybe you should come armed in a debate with some information about what you're actually debating about.


so these are the atrocities commited by the Jews? lmao, occupation by another nation? OMG!! how many times do i have to say PALESTINE HAS NEVER BEEN A NATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

I have already dealt with this "not being a nation" bollox.



dammit......and wow occuption, how many groups of people can't relate to that? but at least they have been independant by themselves, the Palestinians haven't !! and a wall? YES! of course, if you have terrorists in your community, we might as well keep you off, you don't like it? THAN STOP HARBORING TORRORISTS DAMMIT!!! that's what you get for acting the way you act....don't feel sorry now, actions have consequences...

Harbouring terrorists?!

Do you think that because a few suicide bombers come from the West Bank that the whole place has to be punished? Is this your weird "collateral" policy again?

Do you really have such a derogatory view of Palestinians that they are all mad, raging suicide bombers?


what are you talking about dude? All of the Americas, Tibet, the aboriginies from Australia, The Galicians /Basques/and Catalans in Spain, all have more rights than the Palestinians, and even so they don't commit suicide, even the Basques who have a terrorist group instead of blowing bombs (because they don't have suicide bombers) in a public bus, they blow it in front of a police station, and they blow up a police car, at least they have that dicency....

And....? What I was saying is that people react differently. These are human being we are talking about, who don't all do exactly the same, as you seem to suggest.

So what if the Basques have "decency"? This is Palestine we are talking about, and this situation is different.


and before, they were part of something else, and before and before, and if you go back , they were the same Jews with King David.......so? whats your point? the fact is they don't have the right, in fact the Jews have the right over the Palestinians land, because Judea was taken by Muslim invaders....so deal with it..

Deal with that?!

What, that we should go back to 2,000 year old history!

Well, maybe the Celts shoud have England Back. The Basques, Spain.

SO, the Jews have the rights over Palestine? How far do we have to go back?!


yes they are anti-Jewish, and sure i wouldn't be fine about it, but if my people don't have any rights over the land what are my options? at least here the Indians have their own reservations, but im sure the Palestinians don't want that.....and actually yes, Israel does have a mandate for ruling the Palestinan land, because they are the historic people of these lands, even from before the biblical times, it's like saying the Brits should not rule over Britain? hello, they have always been the historical people of Judea, and present day Israel...


But the Palestinians are also "historical people" of these lands. They've been there for about 1500 years! Is that not history enough?

And "the Brits ruling over Britain"? In that case, the Wales and Scotland should be ruling over England, by your logic.


sure, but like i said, if your society harbors terrorism and terrorists, YOU ASKED FOR IT!!!


Ah, this great collateral argument again. I suppose everyone has to be punished, don't they. Because if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists, and the whole world is so black and white and Manichean.


are you serious? :rolleyes: , dude the Palestinians have their own police and everything,

Lol! You're telling me they should attack the police!

Yeah, that would be great for ending terrorism! What a ridiculous suggestion.


and how about HAMAS! for a start! they are the obvious main targets, and other leaders of other radical groups throughout the Palestinian community...

Perhaps, but you must remember that this isn't a normal war, so bombing the shit out of Hamas is going to kill many innocents.

Oh, sorry. I forgot about collateral. Because as long as the "goodies" get what they want, nothing else matters.


for example the killings of 2 Hamas co founders: Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and Sheikh Ahmed Ismail Yassin , of course this was done directed to them, and they are obvious targets, with no collateral damage that i know off,

No collateral?

Again, please research this stuff before you sprout it out!


and the Palestinian retribussion is the bombing of public caffes and busses, how great huh, that's such a great deed don't you think kingbee? make me sick...

Go on, when did I say that it was such a great deed? Did I ever say anything of the sort?

No, you seem to think that because I defend the rights of Palestinians, that I'm a supporter of suicide bombs.

Don't make things up.


not true, give me the evidence of the thousands of Palestinians that have been killed by Israelis??? as far as i know at least 10 are killed each time a freaking Palestinian blows himself up...

God. What is the point if you just assume things to go with your own viewpoint?

If you actually knew this stuff, maybe you wouldn't be arguing...


at least the Israelis target military targets, Palestinians have in mind that they want to target women , children :angry:

OF course, Israel never targets and/or kills women and children. I must remember that Israelis are good, and Palestinians are evil.


how could you not agree?? its about intention, your own personal preference and interest, what you really do want the outcome to be, that's where the difference lies...

But using intention is hardly objective, because anyone could say "sorry, I didn't mean to kill innocents", even when they meant to. Thousands more Palestinians have died in the conflict, but because Israel says "oops. We didn't mean to do that" it seems ok by you.


of course a bomb is a bomb it will kill anybody, but it's those who use it , their intentions that is different, i don't want innocents to die, while thats your goal...

Please, stop clutching at straws and making up stupid assumptions that I like innocent people to be killed. What you base that on, I have no idea.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Maybe you should read up on a topic before debating it?

This was in 1947, when the Jews/Israelis came in, and war was declared between the Palestinians and them.

So this wasn't "after the 60's" when the Muslim world decided "to fuck with Israel".

ummm well , iv tried researching it, and all i find is: NAKBE= MAYAN CITY or something? wtf?


and exactly they were at war with eachother, so obviously the Israelis are not going to treat very kindly freaking enemies, imagine there was a Taliban population in America who were supporting Osama Bin Laden, OHH please if that was the case i don't even want to know what would off happened to them after 9/11



Christ. You don't care about people do you?

Those people are civilians, not combatants! Can you just expel people like that?

And give me proof that all Palestinians are "overly fanatical". Go on, all Palestinians

of course i care about people, but i don't care for extremist fanatical society, SURE! of course not every SINGLE Palestinian is a radical fanatical suicide bomber type, BUT! dude HAMAS!!!! Was elected as their government, that should tell you enough about how the majority of the Palestinians feel!!!! it's like if the KKK was elected to our government and our president was a member of the KKK, SURE not every America would support it, but you can constitute that the majority of American's would be racists since they elected a racist party into government!!


My point is that if 700,000 (not million) people live in an area then they have obviously got a right to living there.

yeah, they do have a right, i accept that, but what they don't have a right off is to think they can separate from Israel....they can work as Israeli citizens and work in the Israeli government etc....it's as if African Americans want to separate from the USA now!??? are you crazy that's not going to happen!! just because you are a different group of people doesn't mean you will now have your own little country...



Harbouring terrorists?!

Do you think that because a few suicide bombers come from the West Bank that the whole place has to be punished? Is this your weird "collateral" policy again?

Do you really have such a derogatory view of Palestinians that they are all mad, raging suicide bombers?

like i said, of course not all, not every single Palestinian is a sucide bomber or supports them, but the election of Hamas is an obvious indication that the majority do support it, and are extremists who are obvious anti-Jewish and want jews to be killed...this is not rocket science


And....? What I was saying is that people react differently. These are human being we are talking about, who don't all do exactly the same, as you seem to suggest.

So what if the Basques have "decency"? This is Palestine we are talking about, and this situation is different


yeah sure, people will react differently, but im just indicating that there are countless other groups and they don't resort to the measures the Palestinians use, which indicates the cultural differences of like almost every damn group and the Palestinians, and well Muslims in that case...Muslim society, the Islamic fanaticals, they are just the most extreme and radical people in the world...how often do you see a person blowing themselves up in the name of Jesus Christ? never huh...exactly, while almost every other group like the American Indians, Basques, Catalans, etc...the list can go on, never use such violence and share the same sentiment with the Palestinians , the Palestinians use very radical violence...




But the Palestinians are also "historical people" of these lands. They've been there for about 1500 years! Is that not history enough?

And "the Brits ruling over Britain"? In that case, the Wales and Scotland should be ruling over England, by your logic.

yeah, thats true, the Palestinians belong to that land, but that doesn't give them the right of independisation, they belong to that land under the rule of the Israelites who have been the historic rules over that land...and your example of England is terribly wrong, the Welsh and Scots don't have any right over the rule of England, the Welsh belong to Wales which they have ruled, and the Scots belong to Scotland which they rule, and the english to England, that is why it's called THE UNITED KINGDOM!!! GET IT? different United Kingdoms....who have been separetly independant , unlike the PALESTINIANS!!!


Deal with that?!

What, that we should go back to 2,000 year old history!

Well, maybe the Celts shoud have England Back. The Basques, Spain.

SO, the Jews have the rights over Palestine? How far do we have to go back?!

dude the celts are the english people, Britons are all of celt and anglo saxon decent hahaha :rolleyes: and the Basques have Spain back? dude the Basques only live in the Basque region, which is the region that they live on and which they have autonomy off, so why would they have Spain back? :blink: they have never controlled anything except their own regions? lmao...yeah lets give Madrid back to the Basques? WTF? :lol:


Ah, this great collateral argument again. I suppose everyone has to be punished, don't they. Because if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists, and the whole world is so black and white and Manichean.

well of course not, not everyone is punished in fact, but if you are in a building with a known terrorist, well than, you are obviously there in support of him, i dont think you would be in a building with Al Zarqawi telling him how great America is!? frankly in this society if there was an Al Zarqawi we wouldn't support him, and so he wouldnt be with us blending in with the society, so we would be imune...listen this is a complex issue, the fact is like i said, we don't have the technology to go after just 1 person with a bomb and kill only that 1 person, so until then accept the rules of engagement and of war, and accept the inevitable in the fog of war...



Lol! You're telling me they should attack the police!

Yeah, that would be great for ending terrorism! What a ridiculous suggestion.

OK? :blink: so than who should the Israelis target? civilians than? should the Israelis use the tactics of the people you support? and then bomb a Palestinian bus or a cafe? :rolleyes: get real man!



Perhaps, but you must remember that this isn't a normal war, so bombing the shit out of Hamas is going to kill many innocents.

Oh, sorry. I forgot about collateral. Because as long as the "goodies" get what they want, nothing else matters.

do you call innocents those who are in back of these Hamas leaders with a turbant hiding their faces? i don't think so....


Go on, when did I say that it was such a great deed? Did I ever say anything of the sort?

No, you seem to think that because I defend the rights of Palestinians, that I'm a supporter of suicide bombs.

Don't make things up.

well it sure looks like you do support the suicide bombers, you think their fighting for a good cause, you support the Palestinian struggle, so???what am i suppose to assume? that you don't think suicide bombers aren't cool? dude throughout this whole dilema you have been on their side!!



God. What is the point if you just assume things to go with your own viewpoint?

If you actually knew this stuff, maybe you wouldn't be arguing...

well since you know it , tell me, that is why i said:


give me the evidence of the thousands of Palestinians that have been killed by Israelis???



OF course, Israel never targets and/or kills women and children. I must remember that Israelis are good, and Palestinians are evil.

dont recall ever saying that they don't kill woman and children, but they sure don't target them....so yeah , when thats your target, anyone with half a brain would assume that your evil....lets see i can go and blow myself up in front of the Israeli parliament, or in front of a police car, in a checkpoint, but no i prefer blowing myself up in front of a cafe with students and old people, and in a public bus with children etc.. somewhere with no real Jewish fighters etc.. :rolleyes:



But using intention is hardly objective, because anyone could say "sorry, I didn't mean to kill innocents", even when they meant to. Thousands more Palestinians have died in the conflict, but because Israel says "oops. We didn't mean to do that" it seems ok by you.

im still waiting for the evidence, of the thousands that have died in contrast to the few Israelis....



Please, stop clutching at straws and making up stupid assumptions that I like innocent people to be killed. What you base that on, I have no idea.

you have no idea? HAHAHAHAHA! :lol: you sure are a funny guy....umm well lets see, you support the Palestinains, which means that almost surely you support Hamas, which might i add is a terrorist organization, which might i add resorts to suicide bombers, which might i add have killed nothing more than children and woman because that is their main and only target, while you don't support the Israelis who only attack Hamas convoy and kill their leaders with relatively few collateral damage, which of course they are probably supporters of Hamas so in reality is no collateral damage....

[Intifada]

the Palestinians belong to that land, but that doesn't give them the right of independisation

[emphasis added]

:lol:

I think that the way Oh-Dae-Su writes is indicative of his utterly moronic and uneducated nature.

You have to feel pity if anything.

Don't waste your time on such an ignoramus, kingbee.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

so a misspelled word is a sign of stupidity? hahaha wow why don't you go back and proof read my whole post, you might find more and just label me retarded!! HAHAHAHA :rolleyes:

good shit intifada, you and your analogies...

[Intifada]

"Independisation" and "Independence" are very similar in the way they are spelt aren't they?

:lol:

You are simply an idiot.

Your posts show that you have no knowledge whatsoever of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Indeed, you have very little knowledge of anything at all.

[kingbee]

ummm well , iv tried researching it, and all i find is: NAKBE= MAYAN CITY or something? wtf?

Well coming into a debate with flailing arms is not good if you don't know the basics. It's Nakba, btw.


and exactly they were at war with eachother, so obviously the Israelis are not going to treat very kindly freaking enemies, imagine there was a Taliban population in America who were supporting Osama Bin Laden, OHH please if that was the case i don't even want to know what would off happened to them after 9/11

Yes, but supporting the Taliban is different from simply being Palestinian.


of course i care about people, but i don't care for extremist fanatical society, SURE! of course not every SINGLE Palestinian is a radical fanatical suicide bomber type, BUT! dude HAMAS!!!! Was elected as their government, that should tell you enough about how the majority of the Palestinians feel!!!!

But this is a democracy.

Should the Palestinians be punished for their democratic decisions?

Is democracy only good when whoever you want gets in?


yeah, they do have a right, i accept that, but what they don't have a right off is to think they can separate from Israel....they can work as Israeli citizens and work in the Israeli government etc....it's as if African Americans want to separate from the USA now!??? are you crazy that's not going to happen!! just because you are a different group of people doesn't mean you will now have your own little country...

But why not? Considering they were there and their land was invaded, does that mean that they have to live under the occupier?

Surely even you realise that the Palestinians deserve a state?


like i said, of course not all, not every single Palestinian is a sucide bomber or supports them, but the election of Hamas is an obvious indication that the majority do support it, and are extremists who are obvious anti-Jewish and want jews to be killed...this is not rocket science

Check the choice they had- either a completely corrupt Fatah movement, or Hamas who, admittedly suicide bombers, but had done so much for Palestinian welfare. If you were a Palestinian, would you think "Oh, they are terrorists. I'm not going to vote for them"?

And your generalisations: if you vote in Hamas then you are anti-Jewish and want Jews to be killed?!

Jesus.


the Palestinians use very radical violence...

Yes, they do. But why you are trying to make this point anyway, I don't know.


yeah, thats true, the Palestinians belong to that land, but that doesn't give them the right of independisation, they belong to that land under the rule of the Israelites who have been the historic rules over that land...

What, 1500 years ago?! Is that really a mandate?!


and your example of England is terribly wrong, the Welsh and Scots don't have any right over the rule of England, the Welsh belong to Wales which they have ruled, and the Scots belong to Scotland which they rule, and the english to England, that is why it's called THE UNITED KINGDOM!!! GET IT? different United Kingdoms....who have been separetly independant , unlike the PALESTINIANS!!!


Mate, you have no idea. Wales and Scotland were completely pillaged by the English for almost 800 years. The United Kingdom is just a name, and Wales, for one, has hardly any self-governance! Research this before you sprout out some shit that you have no idea about!



dude the celts are the english people, Britons are all of celt and anglo saxon decent hahaha :rolleyes:

What?!

The English are NOT Celts!

Where the hell do you get this from?!



and the Basques have Spain back? dude the Basques only live in the Basque region, which is the region that they live on and which they have autonomy off, so why would they have Spain back? :blink: they have never controlled anything except their own regions? lmao...yeah lets give Madrid back to the Basques? WTF? :lol:

Well by your definition, anyone who was originally there gets to rule it!


well of course not, not everyone is punished in fact, but if you are in a building with a known terrorist, well than, you are obviously there in support of him, i dont think you would be in a building with Al Zarqawi telling him how great America is!? frankly in this society if there was an Al Zarqawi we wouldn't support him, and so he wouldnt be with us blending in with the society, so we would be imune...listen this is a complex issue, the fact is like i said, we don't have the technology to go after just 1 person with a bomb and kill only that 1 person, so until then accept the rules of engagement and of war, and accept the inevitable in the fog of war...

So any collateral is morally justified too?


OK? :blink: so than who should the Israelis target? civilians than? should the Israelis use the tactics of the people you support? and then bomb a Palestinian bus or a cafe? :rolleyes: get real man!

Firstly, the Israelis want the Palestinians to have a police force, so they can try to stop terrorism. Why would they want to bomb them? It's just a ludicrous suggestion.

Secondly, have I ever said I support suicide bombers?

No, so stop making things up.


do you call innocents those who are in back of these Hamas leaders with a turbant hiding their faces? i don't think so....

Well I don't consider anyone in a turban as guilty, that's for sure.

What I was saying was that if you bomb a crowd then innocents will die. No?


well it sure looks like you do support the suicide bombers, you think their fighting for a good cause, you support the Palestinian struggle, so???what am i suppose to assume?

I can't quite believe that you think because I'm for the rights of Palestinian people then I support suicide bombers. Why do you assume that?

The right will never understand that the world isn't simply black and white, and good and evil.

Because I support the cause, it doesn't mean I support suicide bombers.


that you don't think suicide bombers aren't cool? dude throughout this whole dilema you have been on their side!!


Lol. I don't quite know what to say. You think that I believe that suicide bombers are cool? Bloody hell.

Some very strange, false assumptions.


dont recall ever saying that they don't kill woman and children, but they sure don't target them....so yeah , when thats your target, anyone with half a brain would assume that your evil....lets see i can go and blow myself up in front of the Israeli parliament, or in front of a police car, in a checkpoint, but no i prefer blowing myself up in front of a cafe with students and old people, and in a public bus with children etc.. somewhere with no real Jewish fighters etc.. :rolleyes:

But does the target matter? If you kill women and children, then intention doesn't matter! It's the result!

Israel has as much blood on their hands as the Palestinian suicidebombers, but they use different tactics.



im still waiting for the evidence, of the thousands that have died in contrast to the few Israelis....

If you actually knew about the conflict, then you'd know that more Palestinians have been killed.

"Almost 1900 Palestinians have been killed since the start of the “al-Aqsa Intifada”, compared to almost 700 Israelis"

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440



you have no idea? HAHAHAHAHA! :lol: you sure are a funny guy....umm well lets see, you support the Palestinains, which means that almost surely you support Hamas,

I don't even see the point in debating with someone as pigheaded as that.


which might i add is a terrorist organization, which might i add resorts to suicide bombers, which might i add have killed nothing more than children and woman because that is their main and only target, while you don't support the Israelis who only attack Hamas convoy and kill their leaders with relatively few collateral damage, which of course they are probably supporters of Hamas so in reality is no collateral damage....

Relatively low collateral damage!

Is all the Israelis do is attack random Hamas convoys?!

I don't think so..

A few tips: 1) Don't make ridiculous assumptions 2) Don't make ridiculous claims 3) Do some research on a topic before arguing about it.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Additives [email protected] 10 2006, 10:31 AM
They certainly have a point when it comes to the lack of Reich documentation, but any rational person can conclude the documentation was destroyed as the war cmae to its conclusions.
This was old, but I just wanted to clear this up... the Nazis left extensive documentation of their intent to kill Jews (see what the SS was up to in Poland. Their records state how many Jews they were able to machine-gun) and the records from the concentration camps are pretty clear as well. All of this is available online.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

"Independisation" and "Independence" are very similar in the way they are spelt aren't they?

yes they are, and considering that English is my second language, and in my first language that would be a similar way of saying it, i think i made an educated guess, of course i could have gone to the dictionary, but dude this isn't Grammar 101, get a hold of yourself Intifada, i want to see you speak a second language as good as i speak and write english...

anyways KINGBEE!

ill just quote from the source you gave me:


Almost 1900 Palestinians have been killed since the start of the “al-Aqsa Intifada”, compared to almost 700 Israelis. Numbers like these are used to create an image of lopsided slaughter, with Israel cast as the villain. But such numbers distort the true picture: They lump combatants in with noncombatants, suicide bombers with innocent civilians, and report Palestinian “collaborators” murdered by their own compatriots as if they had been killed by Israel.


Women and girls account for 31 percent of all Israelis killed in the conflict, and almost 40 percent of the Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians.

Palestinian fatalities, in contrast, have been consistently and overwhelmingly (over 95 percent) male; even when combatants (almost all of whom have been male) are removed from consideration, just 8 percent of Palestinians killed by Israel have been female. :angry:



Over 54 percent of the Palestinians killed were actively involved in fighting–and this does not include stone-throwers or “unknowns”. And Palestinians are directly responsible for the deaths of at least 253 of their own number – more than one out of every eight Palestinians killed.


In absolute terms, even though more Palestinians than Israelis have been killed overall, Israeli female fatalities have far outnumbered Palestinian female fatalities. If we include all reliable reports of women and girls killed in the conflict, the ratio is 219 Israeli females compared to 92 Palestinian females – a ratio of almost 2.5 to 1. If we restrict the comparison to noncombatant Israeli females killed by Palestinians and noncombatant Palestinian females killed by Israel, the difference is even more dramatic: 69 Palestinians compared to 214 Israelis, a ratio of three to one.

WOW :lol: thanks for this source MATE!!

and more staggering quotes:


When we compare the “mature” noncombatant Israelis killed by Palestinians to the “mature” Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel, we see that the Israeli death toll far exceeds the Palestinian. In fact, Palestinians have killed at least 174 noncombatant Israelis aged 45 and over, while Israelis have killed 65 Palestinian noncombatants in the same age bracket. The ratio is 2.7 to 1.


To be more precise, at least 60 percent of all Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel were boys and men between the ages of 12 and 29. In contrast to the high percentage of male Palestinian noncombatants between 12 and 29 years of age, only 26 percent of Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians were males from 12 to 29 years old.


Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians show a much closer balance between the sexes – as mentioned above, three out of eight were women and girls. In fact, slightly more girls than boys were killed below the age of 20; and the ratio is about one-to-one for those aged 60 and over.



On the Israeli side, 80 percent of those killed have been noncombatants. While Israelis account for about 27 percent of the total “Intifada” fatalities, they represent over 43 percent of the noncombatant victims.

in conclusion:


The statistics show that Israeli noncombatants over the last 23 months have been killed essentially at random, as Palestinian terrorists have chosen to attack whichever civilian targets were accessible. Palestinian fatalities, however, have been strongly concentrated within a particular population segment – teenaged boys and young men.

Population segments like women or older people are not military targets; thus their higher prevalence among Israeli fatalities is an indication of the degree to which Palestinian terrorists have killed Israelis simply for the “crime” of being Israeli.

In contrast, Palestinian noncombatant fatalities have been overwhelmingly young (but over the age of 11) and male. This pattern of Palestinian deaths completely contradicts accusations that Israel has “indiscriminately targeted women and children.” It is clear that the vast majority of the Palestinians killed did not die as the result of random Israeli attacks on inhabited areas, or on mixed-sex crowds at roadblocks and the like. There appears to be only one reasonable explanation of this pattern: that Palestinian men and boys engaged in behavior that brought them into conflict with Israeli armed forces. Certainly, at least after the first few days of the conflict, these Palestinian men and boys (or, in the case of the younger ones, their parents and teachers) have to have been aware that they were placing themselves in harm’s way.

In fact, the highly specific pattern of Palestinian noncombatant fatalities suggests that many of these deaths have resulted from an active Palestinian indoctrination campaign glorifying “martyrdom” – effectively encouraging boys and young men to confront Israeli forces and risk death even when there was no real likelihood of causing material harm to Israelis.

that right about sums it up doesn't it! lol

OHHH YES!! KingBEEEEE!!! thank you very much for that source, it was incredible , thank you very much VERY HELPFULL!! ;)

the fact is simple, UN decided to give the Israeli's their own country, which they do deserve after coming from the worst genocide that human history has known, and after being the most hated and discriminated group of people on the face of the earth, i think it was only fair and generous to give them a small country in the land that has always been historically theirs and of their past kingdoms! and of course there were Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, but guess what!? their ancestors were invaders too!! the Muslims invaded these lands! so? whats your point kingbee? Palestinians have always been the same thing as a Jew, it's like saying a Floridian from a Texan, it's just that when the Muslim invasdors came and converted them, they of course became "different", and so why should they deserve now their own country? give me a break



What?!

The English are NOT Celts!

Where the hell do you get this from?!

ummm from the fact that Great Britain has native "celtic" languages, and from the fact that the Celts are the ancestors of a majority of the population in Great Britain... :huh:



Well by your definition, anyone who was originally there gets to rule it!

umm well, thats how its been for the Basques, they are the majority in the Basque region, but they don't RULE it as an independant nation, they are part of the country of Spain, which is in fact almost like a Great Britain, with unified kingdoms like that of Galicia, Cataluña, Aragon, Castilla etc...it's like Uzbekistan under the USSR, umm yeah the Uzbeks were the ones who pretty much lived in Uzbekistan, they were the "rulers" of their own historic region, but they were part of an unified country with other peoples.....BUT Palestine has always been part of Judea, Palestine is merely a region , it's like say Bavaria in Germany...it's just that the people of this region the Palestinians are Islamic and the ones of the other regions of Judea are Jews, and the rulers of Judea have always been the Jews....it's like a minority group inside a country, that doesn't mean your going to separate , since your region has always been part of that country....in this case Palestine has always been merely a region of Israel as it's now known...


Mate, you have no idea. Wales and Scotland were completely pillaged by the English for almost 800 years. The United Kingdom is just a name, and Wales, for one, has hardly any self-governance! Research this before you sprout out some shit that you have no idea about!


so because they were pillaged by the English they have the right to rule England? WTF? HAHAHAHA!! So Congo now has the right to rule over Belgium! :o HAHAHAHA!!! OMG!! lmao actually now the United Kingdom is not a name, the fact is that Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are along with England constituent nations !! ok MATE! they are independant nations, which form a united entity, it's like the EU! just more unified because they all share the same language and culture for the most part

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Well coming into a debate with flailing arms is not good if you don't know the basics. It's Nakba, btw.

OHHH I SEEEE!!!! now its Nakb"A"....great thanks for telling me this, after all this time saying it was NAKB"E"...... :rolleyes:

[KC]

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...entry1292012453 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=45629&st=25&#entry1292012453)
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1292012449 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=45629&hl=&view=findpost&p=1292012449)
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1292012447 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=45680&hl=&view=findpost&p=1292012447)

Cheers, ODS!

[Oh-Dae-Su]

great cheers to you too..

anyways, im not even going to bother, this source given to me by Kingbee was actually from "International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism" ICT...while the sources i see in those threads you gave me show from Ney York Times etc.. several newspapers, which by the way im not saying it's not reliable, in fact they are, BUT! this is like my word against yours, know what i mean, and plus ICT is like they say in their website :
ICT is a research institute and think tank dedicated to developing innovative public policy solutions to international terrorism

so???

cheers MATE! Lets grab that cricket game while we drink our CUP of TEAAAAAA!

[kingbee]

that right about sums it up doesn't it! lol

OHHH YES!! KingBEEEEE!!! thank you very much for that source, it was incredible , thank you very much VERY HELPFULL!!

Why? The main fact (which I was trying to prove) is that more Palestinians have died. It says that. No?

All you've done is highlighted a few random facts about female fatalities.


the fact is simple, UN decided to give the Israeli's their own country, which they do deserve after coming from the worst genocide that human history has known, and after being the most hated and discriminated group of people on the face of the earth, i think it was only fair and generous to give them a small country in the land that has always been historically theirs and of their past kingdoms! and of course there were Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, but guess what!? their ancestors were invaders too!!

How does a land remain "historically yours" then? The fact is says it in a book?

I don't understand why living in an area for 1500 years doesn't make it yours.


the Muslims invaded these lands! so? whats your point kingbee? Palestinians have always been the same thing as a Jew, it's like saying a Floridian from a Texan, it's just that when the Muslim invasdors came and converted them, they of course became "different", and so why should they deserve now their own country? give me a break

Explain. This makes no sense to me.


ummm from the fact that Great Britain has native "celtic" languages, and from the fact that the Celts are the ancestors of a majority of the population in Great Britain...

No. Celts are not the ancestors. The majority of the population has Ango-Saxon roots. The English are NOT Celts. The Welsh and Scottish (and N.Irish) are Celtic.


umm well, thats how its been for the Basques, they are the majority in the Basque region, but they don't RULE it as an independant nation, they are part of the country of Spain, which is in fact almost like a Great Britain, with unified kingdoms like that of Galicia, Cataluña, Aragon, Castilla etc...it's like Uzbekistan under the USSR, umm yeah the Uzbeks were the ones who pretty much lived in Uzbekistan, they were the "rulers" of their own historic region, but they were part of an unified country with other peoples.....

What? The Basques were originally there and still are there. The same can’t be said for the Jews.


BUT Palestine has always been part of Judea, Palestine is merely a region , it's like say Bavaria in Germany...it's just that the people of this region the Palestinians are Islamic and the ones of the other regions of Judea are Jews, and the rulers of Judea have always been the Jews....it's like a minority group inside a country, that doesn't mean your going to separate , since your region has always been part of that country....in this case Palestine has always been merely a region of Israel as it's now known...

Er.. Where the hell do you get this from? No, please show me, because it’s completely unqualified bollocks!


so because they were pillaged by the English they have the right to rule England? WTF? HAHAHAHA!! So Congo now has the right to rule over Belgium!

Did I say that? Stop making stupid assumptions! Where the hell do you get this stuff from?!


HAHAHAHA!!! OMG!! lmao actually now the United Kingdom is not a name, the fact is that Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are along with England constituent nations !! ok MATE! they are independant nations, which form a united entity, it's like the EU! just more unified because they all share the same language and culture for the most part

But they are ruled mainly from London, England. Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast have little say in the majority of issues. They are NOT independent. It's nothing like the E.U., as most of the countries within the E.U. have independence for such things like foreign policy and tax raising, which Wales and Northern Ireland do not.


OHHH I SEEEE!!!! now its Nakb"A"....great thanks for telling me this, after all this time saying it was NAKB"E"......

My, I'm so sorry for your ignorance. Maybe you can learn now!

[Dean]

The U.N. has repeatedly called for the end of the "illegal Israeli occupation of palestinian lands." If that isn't enough for you, it is also well known according to Amnesty International that Israel deliberately targets civilian populations in its military ventures in Palestine. They regularly storm palestinian communities and destroy them to make their own, segregated communities. Because of their "law," it is so hard to get a building permit that most people simply build things without them. They are often destroyed right after they are built or when the time comes that a new jewish - only community is to be built.

But if you watch Fox news that's all bullshit, right? In fact, it is well known that there are large pro - Israeli groups that funnel information that does reach the news and encourages not using terms such as "occupation" because they (rightly) cast Israel in a bad light. Furthermore, the news implies that Israeli aggression is a response to suicide bombers, while in fact suicide bombers are usually responses to Israeli aggression. Often proclaimed "times of calm" are calm only for the state of Israel - houses are still being destroyed by a de-facto governing apparatus and protests are still being shot at, peaceful or not. It has come to be so bad that the ISraeli military has become a breeding ground for anti-occupation protest, where many soldiers are refusing to enter occupied territory on the grounds that it is illegal.

Amnesty International's reports on Israel and the occupied territories (http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-isr/index)

[Baby Olly]

Originally posted by theraven+May 3 2006, 07:35 PM--> (theraven @ May 3 2006, 07:35 PM)
Khayembii [email protected] 3 2006, 07:50 PM


does racism ring a bell here?

Anti-zionism doesn't mean anti-semitism.
wanting to nuke the state of israel is pretty anti-jewish. [/b]
Being anti-Israel doesn't make you anti-Jewish. Israel is rapidly becoming more Nazi than THE Nazis; it has nothing to do with religion itself. They use religion as a tool for gaining power, not as a faith.

As for Holohoax denial, even Jewish scholars are backing away from the 6.2 million dead claimed for so long; the population documentation from post-war Europe actually shows an INCREASE in the Jewish populations of most European countries with the obvious exception of Germany. Auschwitz has replaced its memorial plaque so many times it's not even relevant any more; I think the latest one say something like 1.something million figure.

I don't deny that a lot of people died in the camps, but I won't believe unsubstantiated claims that there was a overall 'extermination' plan- there's far more evidence that Germany tried to get the Jews out of Europe peacefully instead of interning them.

[Baby Olly]

Originally posted by Additives [email protected] 10 2006, 04:31 PM
- No evidence for the holocaust, they reject video footage and personal testimony. They certainly have a point when it comes to the lack of Reich documentation, but any rational person can conclude the documentation was destroyed as the war cmae to its conclusions.

- The Officers who confessed were forced to.

- They claim the Death camps were factories for Zyklon B, and that Jews did die, but I think they say about 500,000
Of course there is film footage- the Germans themselves shot thousands of miles worth of film all over the Reich. Film can be interpreted in a lot of ways, though...say somebody showed you a seventy-year-old film of the WTC attacks and told you the planes were actually computer graphics and the explosions were pre-placed demolition charges- how could you tell the difference? How could you tell the Challenger shuttle wasn't actually shot out of the sky?

Somebody shows you an old photo of a hundred civilians standing at a railroad siding with a German officer directing some to this side and others to that side...how do you know he's not simply dividing them up between barracks buildings? He's deciding- for himself, on his own initiative- who lives and who dies? PLEASE- nobody in the Germany Army- or SS for that matter- did ANYTHING without an order. And not one single copy of an extermination order has been produced? Out of the billions of pages of documentation captured after the war? Please. The only reference you have of the photos is because somebody told you what it was, withuot being able to provide one shred of corroborating evidence.

Why would the Germans film themselves randomly ordering people to their deaths? Why would they continue filming up to the end of the war? If they were doing things they thought they would be liable for after the war, don't you think they would have ditched the cameras and destroyed all the film 'evidence' they could get their hands on?

As for Zyklon B- it's nothing more than a delousing agent- one that takes some 24 hours to reach effective concentrations for killing bugs. Not very efficient for killing people, is it? Don't you think the Germans, with all their advanced chemical and industrial knowledge, could have come up with something a little better?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Why? The main fact (which I was trying to prove) is that more Palestinians have died. It says that. No?

All you've done is highlighted a few random facts about female fatalities.

yeah more Palestinians have died, while they were targeted males whom were inciting action from Israeli soldiers, they were not random people in the street whom the Israelis said :" HEY LETS SHOOT THEM"



How does a land remain "historically yours" then? The fact is says it in a book?

I don't understand why living in an area for 1500 years doesn't make it yours.

of course it is yours, but under Jewish rule!! as far as im concerned Catalunya remains predominantly Catalan even speaking their own language, yet belonging to a central government and an entity known as Spain not Catalunya..and even the Catalans have more right of becoming independant because they were an independant nation/kingdom before becoming part of "SPAIN"

while the Palestinians are the same, with the exception that they have never been independant as well as always being historically a mere province of Judea, yet they don't want to be part of the country of Israel for the simple fact that Israel is now a Jewish state, and so Palestine than are suffering the consequences...


Explain. This makes no sense to me.

dude why do you think the Palestinians are Muslims? has it ever occured to you that maybe just maybe by chance they were converted to this religion? DUHH!!! why do you think the Crusades took place? BECAUSE MUSLIMS HAD OCCUPIED JUDEA!! where Jerusalem was! it is simple the people that we know off today as Palestinians are merely the Jews who were converted when the Muslims invaded, thats all



No. Celts are not the ancestors. The majority of the population has Ango-Saxon roots. The English are NOT Celts. The Welsh and Scottish (and N.Irish) are Celtic.

Celts inhabitted all of the British Isles, and then came the Anglo=Saxons, so the English can trace their ancestors to both...just as a Scot can trace it back to the Picts etc..


What? The Basques were originally there and still are there. The same can’t be said for the Jews

what can't be said about the Jews? cuz as far as im concerned ther jews have always been in Judea



Did I say that? Stop making stupid assumptions! Where the hell do you get this stuff from?!

sure no problem ill quote what you said:



QUOTE
and your example of England is terribly wrong, the Welsh and Scots don't have any right over the rule of England, the Welsh belong to Wales which they have ruled, and the Scots belong to Scotland which they rule, and the english to England, that is why it's called THE UNITED KINGDOM!!! GET IT? different United Kingdoms....who have been separetly independant , unlike the PALESTINIANS!!!




Mate, you have no idea. Wales and Scotland were completely pillaged by the English for almost 800 years. The United Kingdom is just a name, and Wales, for one, has hardly any self-governance! Research this before you sprout out some shit that you have no idea about!

i said the Welsh , Scots etc. have no right to rule over England, and you come back with a comment saying the above that i have no idea that they were pillaged by the English for 800 years? so whats your point? that they have the right to rule over England because they were pillaged by the English? thats the only obvious deduction i can concieve from your responses!



Er.. Where the hell do you get this from? No, please show me, because it’s completely unqualified bollocks!

i suggest you read on the history of Palestine, and youll see that Palestine, has always been part of the what we now know as Israel..in fact the name Palestine comes from an insult to the Jews after they were defeated by the Romans in the first Jewish-Roman war, when Judea was renamed Syria Palaestina

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine




But they are ruled mainly from London, England. Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast have little say in the majority of issues. They are NOT independent. It's nothing like the E.U., as most of the countries within the E.U. have independence for such things like foreign policy and tax raising, which Wales and Northern Ireland do not.

well of course it is not like the USA etc.. but the States make their own laws, and why would California have to decide whats happening in the international affairs, thats Washington's job, and the USA as an entity, the UK works as an entity, it doesnt work as ENGLAND, of course London is going to make the major decisions, ITS THE DAMN CAPITAL!!! but each of the Kingdoms that make up the UK, are solely independant, i mean they are countries for god's sake, even with their own football teams that play internationally as SCOTLAND, WALES, ENGLAND etc...the fact is they all signed a contract if you will, in 1500's or whenever it was, this wasn't a forced deal i believe...the people of the British Isles all share the same culture and language for the most part...the fact is the majority like it as it is, and it's been this way now for 500+ years so....nothing else to talk about here



My, I'm so sorry for your ignorance. Maybe you can learn now!

MY ignorance? gee if i can recall correctly you were the one who said the following:


Nakbe= the disaster in Arabic. When about 700,000 Palestinians were made to lose their homes.



and Baby Olly, gee i guess you have opened up Pandoras Box into the Holocaust haven't you, god damn historians for 60 years they have been lying to us , wow Baby Olly i guess your going to re-write the history books now aren't ya! :lol: :rolleyes: im dying to know than whats the accurate # of dead from you Olly!! lol

[kingbee]

yeah more Palestinians have died, while they were targeted males whom were inciting action from Israeli soldiers, they were not random people in the street whom the Israelis said :" HEY LETS SHOOT THEM"

Great. That wasn't the point I was trying to prove was it?


of course it is yours, but under Jewish rule!!

How is a land where there are no Jews around under Jewish rule?! How can this be?


as far as im concerned Catalunya remains predominantly Catalan even speaking their own language, yet belonging to a central government and an entity known as Spain not Catalunya..and even the Catalans have more right of becoming independant because they were an independant nation/kingdom before becoming part of "SPAIN"

Have your opinion. The fact remains is that Palestine has the right to self determination, no matter what you claim.


while the Palestinians are the same, with the exception that they have never been independant as well as always being historically a mere province of Judea,

Judea was 1500 years ago! How could it be part of an area that hasn't existed for so long?


yet they don't want to be part of the country of Israel for the simple fact that Israel is now a Jewish state, and so Palestine than are suffering the consequences...

Simple fact? I think the simple fact is that they don't want to be part of a country that drove them out of their original land and then put them under military occupation!


dude why do you think the Palestinians are Muslims? has it ever occured to you that maybe just maybe by chance they were converted to this religion? DUHH!!! why do you think the Crusades took place? BECAUSE MUSLIMS HAD OCCUPIED JUDEA!! where Jerusalem was! it is simple the people that we know off today as Palestinians are merely the Jews who were converted when the Muslims invaded, thats all

I'm sure you don't know the ethnic make up of the people there either, but what point are you trying to make? That we should go back 1500 years and convert them back (if this was the case in the first place)?


Celts inhabitted all of the British Isles, and then came the Anglo=Saxons, so the English can trace their ancestors to both...just as a Scot can trace it back to the Picts etc..


But the majority of the country is not Celtic. There is (or was) a distinct difference between the ethnic make up of England and Scotland, Wales etc.


said the Welsh , Scots etc. have no right to rule over England, and you come back with a comment saying the above that i have no idea that they were pillaged by the English for 800 years? so whats your point? that they have the right to rule over England because they were pillaged by the English? thats the only obvious deduction i can concieve from your responses!

No, you said that Wales rules over Wales. As a Welshman, I found this quite ignorant and I was saying "you have no idea" because England has ruled over (and pillaged) Wales for 800 years. I didn't come close to saying that we should rule over them!


suggest you read on the history of Palestine, and youll see that Palestine, has always been part of the what we now know as Israel..

No, it doesn't say that. How can Palestine be part of an area that hasn't existed for 1500 years?


well of course it is not like the USA etc.. but the States make their own laws, and why would California have to decide whats happening in the international affairs, thats Washington's job, and the USA as an entity,

Of course, because the U.S is a federal state. Britain is not at the moment.


the UK works as an entity, it doesnt work as ENGLAND, of course London is going to make the major decisions, ITS THE DAMN CAPITAL!!! but each of the Kingdoms that make up the UK, are solely independant, i mean they are countries for god's sake,

They are not independent! Don't try telling that to me! Wales has not been independent since 1282 when Owain Glyndwr was defeated. The act of union in 1536 effectively made Wales PART of England. Wales cannot make it's own decisions! You know that there has been a Welsh independence movement? We wouldn't need that if we were independent would we!


even with their own football teams that play internationally as SCOTLAND, WALES, ENGLAND etc...the fact is they all signed a contract if you will, in 1500's or whenever it was, this wasn't a forced deal i believe...

Yes, this was a forced deal. As I said, Wales was made part of England in 1536 and only in 1707 was Great Britain united with the joing of Scotland to "the union". Just because they have football teams doesn't mean they are independent. FIFA doesn't decide on sovereignity!


the people of the British Isles all share the same culture and language for the most part...the fact is the majority like it as it is, and it's been this way now for 500+ years so....nothing else to talk about here

The majority like it as it is?

If you go to many areas of Scotland and Wales then you will realise that this is not necessarily the case.


MY ignorance? gee if i can recall correctly you were the one who said the following:


QUOTE
Nakbe= the disaster in Arabic. When about 700,000 Palestinians were made to lose their homes.


Please, tell me how this is ignorant.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Baby [email protected] 16 2006, 09:04 PM
I don't deny that a lot of people died in the camps, but I won't believe unsubstantiated claims that there was a overall 'extermination' plan- there's far more evidence that Germany tried to get the Jews out of Europe peacefully instead of interning them.
So peacefully that the SS on the front lines had orders to round up Jews and machine gun them, right? Get fucking real.


As for Zyklon B- it's nothing more than a delousing agent- one that takes some 24 hours to reach effective concentrations for killing bugs. Not very efficient for killing people, is it? Don't you think the Germans, with all their advanced chemical and industrial knowledge, could have come up with something a little better?

This sort of deniability is exactly what they were aiming for. But if you cram a lot of people into a tiny room and fill it with Zyklon-B, don&#39;t worry, they&#39;ll die. <_<

[EwokUtopia]

Its a very interesting and horrifying time in history, unfortunately, the more one looks at history, the less special the holocaust seems. The Holocaust is unique for one reason, not the body count (more Chinese people died at the hands of Japanese Imperialists in WWII than all the victims of the Holocaust combined), what makes it horrifying is that it was basically (after a certain point, around 1942) an industry of killing, with IBM technology used to number the lambs to the slaughter. It was a merciless and premeditated attempt to wipe out entire races, and other "subversive" elements of their fascist society. And whats more, the common German didnt know it was happening. They were kept hush and complaicent by rampant consumerism supported by the economic exploitation of the slave labour the holocaust provided. This proposes the following question: How do we know the same isnt going on right now? Does anybody here really doubt that the modern United States, or even (sadly ironically enough) Israel lacks the power to do so?
But paranoid conspiracy theories aside, one of the things i think is too often ignored is the Porajmos, or the killing of the Roma and Sinti peoples (derogitorially, but commonly known as "gypsies") in the holocaust. Hitler damn near succedded in wiping them out, whereas he killed 2/3s of Jews in his control, he got 9/10s of Romanay. The problem therein is the Nazi&#39;s hated the Roma more than the Jews, to the point that they didnt believe they were worth keeping records of, therefore, we know nothing about how many, or who was killed in the porajmos, which is a very sad episode in the holocaust (though they are all very sad episodes)
Denying the holocaust is a natural reaction to being revealed to such horrors, but this is only acceptable t people who just heard about it for the first time, the only holocaust denial that i can accept is the belief that people couldnt do that to other people. it is absurdly niave, but at least it acknowledges the horror of the holocaust by thinking it impossible, because, to the untrained mind, such horror does, and should, seem impossible. Unfortunately, it isnt. We must strive for a better future, but reconcile and come to terms with the aweful past.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by ColinH+May 3 2006, 05:46 AM--> (ColinH @ May 3 2006, 05:46 AM)
Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 3 2006, 12:10 AM
well, recently the only one i can recall is the president of Iran, who truley does believe Holocaust is bullshit, i read a news article about him, in yahoo.com, and it stated some of his reasons but i forgot, if you want you can search for it...

i think that he and others probably just believe that the killing of jews might have been justifiable beause they were considered "enemies" of the state or something, and in fact political killings, that is, mass murders of political dissidents, is not concidered genocide......
If you read different (and complete) translations of the same speech by the Iranian president, and compare this to what the media chooses to highlight in their articles, you may come out with the impression that he has been unfairly represented. Of course, I am not a Holocaust denier, and from what I read he is not one either. He just doesn&#39;t support the state of Israel or the Zionists, and asks abstract questions about its justification with regards to the Holocaust. [/b]
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is actually holding a convention on the Holocaust, inviting many European "revisionist" Historians, to speak on it. All of them are semi-infamous Holocaust deniers.

There&#39;s no doubt that Ahmadinejad is a lesser evil than the US and or the Nazis. However, he, like his nation, follow an alarmingly violent, history-annulling paradigm that is totally contradictory to Marxism-Leninism or any form of progressivism in itself. This is because of our dependence on historical analysis and precedent: and the revision of history in ways that glorify the imperialist oppressor, or deny the achievements of some, or deny the occurance of massacres are all quite reactionary. If we support Mr. Ahmadinejad&#39;s antisemitic rhetoric and neo-fascist hooiganism, we will be no better than the revisionist historians he espouses as heroes; the likes of Ernst Zundel. He is just like the Japanese government in the publication of a textbook that totally ignores and nullifies any mention of the Rape of Nanking or Japanese War Crimes. In the same way, many US textbooks glorify the United States as an infallible super-entity.

[EwokUtopia]

As bad as some of the practices of Ahmadinezhad&#39;s Iran may be, it is peicemeal compared to the crimes of globalized neoliberal capitalism that may take the form of the US, Britain, Israel, or any other oppressive first world state that hides behind its sham of "democracy". It cant truly be called a democracy if the people are kept blind with a deliberate and efficient system of constant brainwash as achieved by the media. Therefore, Ahmadinezhad is more of a lesser of two evils, and have no doubt that the West would like to take him out, but consider the consequences of which. An American war on Iran would be more horrifying than anything we have lived through, it would make all the bloodshed in Iraq look like childsplay. Millions would die, therefore as much as you may disagree with the government of Iran, you must support the people of Iran now, because the evil eye of the neoconservative fascists has fallen upon Tehran, we must see to it that their greedy gaze is all that falls upon Tehran.
There is a Jewish anti-Zionist group that has had vocal support of Ahmadinezhad, actually, I read the letter of a Rabbi to Ahmadinezhad, it was quite interesting. http://nkusa.org/activities/Statements/2005Oct28Iran.cfm here is the link for anyone interested.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 05:19 PM
As bad as some of the practices of Ahmadinezhad&#39;s Iran may be, it is peicemeal compared to the crimes of globalized neoliberal capitalism that may take the form of the US, Britain, Israel, or any other oppressive first world state that hides behind its sham of "democracy". It cant truly be called a democracy if the people are kept blind with a deliberate and efficient system of constant brainwash as achieved by the media. Therefore, Ahmadinezhad is more of a lesser of two evils, and have no doubt that the West would like to take him out, but consider the consequences of which. An American war on Iran would be more horrifying than anything we have lived through, it would make all the bloodshed in Iraq look like childsplay. Millions would die, therefore as much as you may disagree with the government of Iran, you must support the people of Iran now, because the evil eye of the neoconservative fascists has fallen upon Tehran, we must see to it that their greedy gaze is all that falls upon Tehran.
There is a Jewish anti-Zionist group that has had vocal support of Ahmadinezhad, actually, I read the letter of a Rabbi to Ahmadinezhad, it was quite interesting. http://nkusa.org/activities/Statements/2005Oct28Iran.cfm here is the link for anyone interested.
Perhaps, but he&#39;s still one very evil bastard--
the whole Iranian Islamic Republic is an entirely malevolent presence in combat with an equally malevolent presence--the Imperialists.

[jaycee]

an important point is that the allies hold a lot of responsability for the holocaust as well as the nazis.

it was the allies who met in the infamous bermuda conference and decided not to do anything to help the jews.

as has been said the technology used was knowingly supplied by IBM who even sent people to install some of the technology.

the allies turned down any attempts made by the nazis to &#39;offload any prisoners&#39; the most famous example being the million jews offered in exchange for military equipment and eventually even for free. To this the British foreign officer replied &#39;what do we want with a million jews&#39;.

The nazis originally did not plan to exterminate the jews but to send them away to other countries, but all the countries refused to allow any refugees in.

there are many other examples

people should read the book , &#39;while 6 million died&#39; its written by the same guy who uncovered the link between smoking and cancer (suprising that this uncovering is less widely known about)

Also an icc (international communist current) article: The nazis and the allies share responsability for the holocaust&#39;

[CubaSocialista]

UPDATE:

http://www.guerrillanews.com/headlines/918...s_to_Get_Badges (http://www.guerrillanews.com/headlines/9187/Iranian_Jews_to_Get_Badges)

By Chris Wattie
Republished from the National Post (Canada)
New law, inspired by the Nazis, would require badges for Jews and other non-Muslims.
Human rights groups are raising alarms over a new law passed by the Iranian parliament that would require the country’s Jews and Christians to wear coloured badges to identify them and other religious minorities as non-Muslims.

“This is reminiscent of the Holocaust,” said Rabbi Marvin Hier, the dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. “Iran is moving closer and closer to the ideology of the Nazis.”

Iranian expatriates living in Canada yesterday confirmed reports that the Iranian parliament, called the Islamic Majlis, passed a law this week setting a dress code for all Iranians, requiring them to wear almost identical “standard Islamic garments.”

The law, which must still be approved by Iran’s “Supreme Guide” Ali Khamenehi before being put into effect, also establishes special insignia to be worn by non-Muslims.

Iran’s roughly 25,000 Jews would have to sew a yellow strip of cloth on the front of their clothes, while Christians would wear red badges and Zoroastrians would be forced to wear blue cloth.

“There’s no reason to believe they won’t pass this,” said Rabbi Hier. “It will certainly pass unless there’s some sort of international outcry over this.”

Bernie Farber, the chief executive of the Canadian Jewish Congress, said he was “stunned” by the measure. “We thought this had gone the way of the dodo bird, but clearly in Iran everything old and bad is new again,” he said. “It’s state-sponsored religious discrimination.”

Ali Behroozian, an Iranian exile living in Toronto, said the law could come into force as early as next year.

It would make religious minorities immediately identifiable and allow Muslims to avoid contact with non-Muslims.

Mr. Behroozian said it will make life even more difficult for Iran’s small pockets of Jewish, Christian and other religious minorities—the country is overwhelmingly Shi’ite Muslim. “They have all been persecuted for a while, but these new dress rules are going to make things worse for them,” he said.

The new law was drafted two years ago, but was stuck in the Iranian parliament until recently when it was revived at the behest of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

A spokesman for the Iranian Embassy in Ottawa refused to comment on the measures. “This is nothing to do with anything here,” said a press secretary who identified himself as Mr. Gharmani.

“We are not here to answer such questions.”

The Simon Wiesenthal Centre has written to Kofi Annan, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, protesting the Iranian law and calling on the international community to bring pressure on Iran to drop the measure.

“The world should not ignore this,” said Rabbi Hier. “The world ignored Hitler for many years—he was dismissed as a demagogue, they said he’d never come to power—and we were all wrong.”

Mr. Farber said Canada and other nations should take action to isolate Mr. Ahmadinejad in light of the new law, which he called “chilling,” and his previous string of anti-Semitic statements.

“There are some very frightening parallels here,” he said. “It’s time to start considering how we’re going to deal with this person.”

Mr. Ahmadinejad has repeatedly described the Holocaust as a myth and earlier this year announced Iran would host a conference to re-examine the history of the Nazis’ “Final Solution.”

He has caused international outrage by publicly calling for Israel to be “wiped off the map.”

Iran does not yet have nuclear weapons, but Tehran believed by Western nations to be developing its own nuclear military capability, in defiance of international protocols and peace treaties.

The United States, France and Israel accuse Iran of using a civilian nuclear program to secretly build a weapon. Iran denies this, saying its program is confined to generating electricity.

--the source is guerrilla News Network. Independent journalists totally independent of the initiatives of Washington.

[jaycee]

that is fucked up&#33; any leftist still think iran should be supported.