digesting it all

[KickMcCann]

A Happy Belated May Day to you all, I'm sure the Americans here were just as happy as I was to see May Day being celebrated in the States, it's long overdue.
But there is alot of emotion and confusion right now for us on the left, as well as those on the right, no one is really sure about how to react, or what might happen next, so I'd like to take a moment to analyze the situation and digest it all into a rational conclusion. So let me start by basically stating a few commonly agreed upon conceptions:

-Most Americans feel absolutely loyal to consumerism, capitalism, their national identity, and their political party

-The Republican and Democrat parties are absolutely loyal to the capitalist ruling class

-The capitalist ruling class loves the cheap labor of illegal immigrants......

Therefore the Republican and Democrat parties are ultimately obligated to maintain the availability of cheap labor-the "illegals" will get to stay.

One of my main concerns was how will the right-wing (with their propensity for racist violence) react to the May Day protests and the eventual "victory" of the immigrant movement. But I have reached the conclusion that they will not react at all. For all their huffing, puffing and gun toting, the right-wing agitators are actually perfectly trained peasants of the ruling class. They are anti-union, anti-left, anti-liberal, anti-social, anti-intellectual, flag waving, Marine Corp joining, capitalist loving, "divine right" religous absolutists, and loyal consumers/employees.
Face the facts, with the exception of a few nut jobs, the right wing is lazy, individualistic, and predominantly isolated in suburban and rural locales. The would never be caught dead in an urban environment (too many colored people) skipping work, organizing and protesting with thousands of others for a common goal. It's just not their style. Just look at the rise in Gas prices and all their big talk, they never actually organized or boycotted, they never traded-in their F-350's for hybrids, they took it in the ass just as they've been trained to do by the ruling class.
But don't be so confident for us on the left, the ruling class technically has us in the same checkmate it has had over us for the last 100+ years. Yes, we Socialists, Communists, Anarchists and others are often quite effective at organizing and agitating for strikes, marches, boycotts and social change, this year's May Day is a great example. So was the 8-hour work day, women's rights, and civil rights, and GLBT rights.
But pay important consideration to the context of all these movements. None of these movements have been based on the "ultimate battle" between the ruling class and underclasses over control of the means of production, they have been based on gaining respect, recognition and participitory rights within the capitalist system. This current movement is no different, its a battle over the jobs and employment offered by the ruling class.
Some on the left may believe that this is our golden opportunity to build a base with which to start the "revolution", but you are sadly mistaken. Again, look back to the other movements, they were all originally started by disorganized masses uniting under their immediate goal. We on the left actually jumped in a little later to provide support to these movements, and we were very successful in guiding and assisting these movements towards success. But success to the vast majority only meant achieving their immediate goal- sufferage, equal rights, etc.. And once they had what they wanted, they were done protesting, they stopped agitating and settled down to what they considered an ideal life.
And what was the real nature of their goals? Concessions from the ruling class. And who controls the distribution of those concessions? The ruling class. Once the immigrants have their rights, they will not continue agitating, the left will be left without a base once again, and the ruling class will maintain control.
The real essence of this current conflict is between the left and the right of the underclass over the favor and patrimony of the ruling class, like competing aristocrats in the court of Louis XIV fighting over the support of the crown in their infighting. The context has changed, but the dynamic remains.
The real revolution will come when the underclass is awake and ready on its own terms to fight for control of the means of production, beyond their left-right infighting. So until then, enjoy the show and support the progessive side :D

[IronColumn]

The Black Panthers were pretty good. I also don't feel it's worthwhile to caricature or poke fun at these people. The revolution comes from love, so we should pity, not get upset, with these people.

[KickMcCann]

No poking intended, I completely support the rights of the immigrants, just as I support the civil rights movement, women's rights, and all movements for respect and equality for minorities. True, none of these movements led to the overthrow of capitalism directly, but there is certainly an accumulative effect, that their continued successes will eventually lead us to that point.
It would be foolish to abandon such efforts because they are not the big one we are looking for, we must necessarily be pragmatic and achieve as much as we can when we can. If the workers from Mexico, Central, and South America within the U.S. do not achieve equality and respect, then all progressive movements would be stuck at that point and we could achieve nothing more.
And as for my insulting of right-wingers, they bring such caricatures onto themselves. Certainly I pity their ignorance, but thankfully they are dwindling in numbers with each generation. And yes the blank panthers had alot of potential and did alot of great things, and their destruction by the government is a precursor to what we will eventually face.

[Jimmie Higgins]

First of all I think that you have raised some important questions, however, I think you underestimate the political situation.

The right-wing minutemen types have been organizing and had a degree of support for the mainstream parties and in much of the press. American Patrol, the Minutemen, and FAIR are the "White citizens councils" of our time and should not be taken lightly in their potential for terrorism and violence; they are frustrated because the ruling class won't stop immigration (like you said, they need a cheep labor force with no rights) and have already been connceted to terrorist campaigns against Latino and Immigrant activists that have involved throwing rocks through windows, threatening calls, trying to run immigrants over with their cars and so on... they just haven't figure out what their equivalent of leaving a buring cross on someone's lawn is yet.

On the other side, a mass movement of workers fighting for themselves has begun and I believe witht he Mayday walkout we are seeing the beginnings of liberal and radical factions of this movement... liberals were calling on people not to walkout of school and work, but more than 1 million did and fewer (still a lot - many could have been the same people) showed up for the church and democratic party sponsered events to support the McCain-Kennedy legislation that were held later in the evening (after working hours).

This new movement is a "rights" movement, but it is also more directly conected to the class struggle againstr employers than the 50s civil rights movement was. So I believe that this struggle is going to become a militant labor stuggle as it matures.

[McLeft]

Just a question here, I'd like to pick up on the point of the Republican and the Democratic parties, I know that these have been the dominant parties in all of America's history but i'd like to know if there are anymore political parties in America and if there are are they represented in any of the Houses of Congress?

I did some research on this but I only found parties that are long gone and probably aren't even active anymore.

[Jimmie Higgins]

There are some independants who are representatives and they range from progressive-types to right-wing populist types. The Green party is the largest social-democratic party (although there is a more right-wing side of it too which is more liberal than reformist) and then on the right there is the Libertarian Party. These parties have people in local governments and ususally run candidates for President and Congress in some places.

[Dreckt]

I do not have first-hand experience with the US, but I believe that the American people need to feel some kind of pressure.

Theory may rather easily become confused with the American concept of "communism" (i.e. the Soviet Union). So naturally, all left-leaning policies are quickly waved away as "communist ideas". They instead look to the right and to the church for help and "salvation", and it is exactly this place that needs to collapse.

I think that more people will realize that the Republican and Democrat parties are just one and the same soup. The living conditions will keep deterioating, people will go to the church and discover that they too need money, and if not, then the church will be closed because it lack funds. Now, this is probably the US around 2030-50 CE, but it also depends on how the international stage will look like at the time.

Right now, the US is the only standing hyperpower. But this will soon change as a hyperpower needs recourses, and the US isn't exactly spending it on making life easier for the average American. Sooner or later, their power will collapse. China are waging a violent economic war, for example, offering deals with African nations without pressuring them on human rights. If the US is to succeed, their strategy must change. And if China wages ruthlessly, then so must the US - and what will people think of their government when they deal with warlords (on the other hand, this is happening with Saudi Arabia, but they still pressure them with reforms and stuff).

In other words - the lack of reforms, deterioating living conditions, a much bigger gap between the rich and poor, harder laws and a government that goes against what many people take for granted will probably be their fall.

All empires fall eventually. Britain had control of 50% or so of the world, and now they have only their island (in territorial terms). It will happen. Then, if people, economy or some other element does it remains to be seen.

[Jimmie Higgins]

No question that the US government will not control everything forever, but "feeling pressure" will not cause US workers to engage in class struggle.

For one thing, US workers do feel pressure in that they live in the richest society and yet have teeth rotting in their head with no acess to dental or medical benifits. This is just one example of the vast polarization in US society.

If "pressure" was the keystone for class struggle, urban blacks would have made the Black Panther Party look like a tea-party compared to their radicalism. Urban balck communities had disproportionatly high unemployment in the 70s and 80s and yet the black working class has never been as radical as in the late 60s and the first years of the 70s.

Black workers were more radical because of organization and a civil rights movement that made victories for regular people seem possible. That's what it will take for the rest of US workers too.

[Entrails Konfetti]

While we marched for May Day, the immigrants marched for their rights on May first: which is on the week of Cinco De Mayo. There wasn't much of a connection between what we were doing, and what they were doing. They demanded citizenship, while we we're just showing that Communists still exist and want revolution. We probably looked like people who were trying to ape this issue for our own advantage. There wasn't a general consciousness of anti-imperialism amongst the immigrant workers.

The immigrant movement is very broad rightnow, they know what they want, but they just don't know how to get it. There doesn't seem to be a clear direction, and I'm afriad of this turning into a campaign victory for a Democratic Party candidate, who will maintain the naturalization process but probably make it more easier to go through, thereby demobilizing most of the movement. There will still be the problem of immigrant workers not having their rights, but it will be "less" of a problem. Which is what pretty much happened with the civil-rights movement. African, and women's rights organizations today still say the civil-rights movement only went half-way, but they are still experiencing troubles in direction in setting the movement to go all the way.

I'm sorry I don't sound possitive, but we need to be critical of the situation.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't know how US comrades can be anything but positive about this relatively spontanious movement of working class people. There was a low level of class activity and now there is a movement showing the way for workers to draw attention to their demands and to defeat an attack from the right wing (the Sensenbrenner bill).

What the anti-war movement is more radical because there is a small anti-imperilaist faction within it? Well they were not able to even stand up to right wing attacks such as domestic spying and torture of Arab prisoners?

The labor movement has some pretty mild demands right now too: please, boss, make us keep paying for 1/3 of our own healthcare costs instead of all of the health care costs. For unions to achieve what this new movement has already achieved, there would have to be a million unionists out on the streets in major cities and demanding that legislation to make the taft-heartly act be changed.

For the first time since 9/11, one of the right-wing attacks has been derailed by a mass movement and a whole generation of workers (mostly latino at this point) is learning that you can fight and force our leaders to repond to you. SO even though there are many things to be critical about politically, the big picture is that this is the return to mayday in the US (moreso because workers fought back by withholding their work and protesting together to effect change than any sort of workers movement nostalgia).

If you felt like you were just standing there to remind people that there are still communists and that you believe in revolution, then you were probably just there wearing a che shirt and a sign that said revolution (or handing out the spanish-language version of your paper like the RCP).

I think we should be involved with the grassroots planning of these events and any left (no Democrats) coalitions that called the walkout or are forming If the Green Party and ANSWER can be involved than so could any of us); we should bring up our criticisms of the direction of some things in the movement and try and argue the way to make the movement more effective. This could involve using our own political connections to people we know in labor movements to try and get rank and file turn out to some of the marches so that protesters can see that other workers are in solidarity and realize that immigration laws are harmful to all workers; or we could help get other immigrant communities involved with the coalitions and marches.


Originally posted by EL KABLAMO
There doesn't seem to be a clear direction, and I'm afriad of this turning into a campaign victory for a Democratic Party candidate, who will maintain the naturalization process but probably make it more easier to go through, thereby demobilizing most of the movement. There will still be the problem of immigrant workers not having their rights, but it will be "less" of a problem.

It is very true that liberals are trying to grab the reigns and steer this mustang toward the Democratic party guest-worker bill. However, the liberal forces also tried to keep people from walking out of work and school but the walkout happened anyway... I belive this is a very good sign of the confidence that workers have gained because of these marches... it will be hard for anyone to slow them down right now.

If the bracero program passes and there are no actions to push things further because the Dems or church tries to get the movement to express itself through propper electoral (Democratic party, that is) expressions, then there very well could be demoralization for the movement.

But I disagree that that means things will return to normal and possibly slightly better for the immigrants. Every mass movement of workers that looses is followed by reaction (at worst, the NAZIs after the german revolutionaries failed, at best, Reagan and Christian-right movments after the failure of the 60s movements).

If this movement is demobilized at this point, the right-wing would strike back hard. The new-racist and anti-immigrant formations would redouble its efforts to make sure to terrorize immigrants from ever raising their heads again. They might even join the Reform party or form their own party on an anti-immigrant platform (the new know-nothing party) and run the yank-version of LE Pen.

I believe this represents a sea-change in the political landscape much as 9/11 (except no to the political right) or the WTO protests in Seattle. Another comrade said that the lenninist parties are tripping over themselves to get involved with this movement... ok, we should be, all class-consious radicals should be tripping over themselves to get involved! The keys to cracking the US have always been the intersection of race and class and these two issues are at the heart of this new movement.

[patrickbeverley]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 10:34 PM
Just a question here, I'd like to pick up on the point of the Republican and the Democratic parties, I know that these have been the dominant parties in all of America's history but i'd like to know if there are anymore political parties in America and if there are are they represented in any of the Houses of Congress?

I did some research on this but I only found parties that are long gone and probably aren't even active anymore.
The Cool Moose Party (http://www.votehealey.com/)

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 05:17 AM
I don't know how US comrades can be anything but positive about this relatively spontanious movement of working class people. There was a low level of class activity and now there is a movement showing the way for workers to draw attention to their demands and to defeat an attack from the right wing (the Sensenbrenner bill).
True, there has been a great demonstration of millitant organization. The thing is I'm uncertain to where this is going to go. We've heard the cries of the immigrants demanding full rights, and citizenship-- but how are they going to get them?
So far they've been asking the government for it, and the only solution the government is going to give them is the potential passing of a guest worker bill-- which will not grant workers instant citizenship internationally. Another question is that will the immigrants settle for that, or will they never stop until their demands are met?


What the anti-war movement is more radical because there is a small anti-imperilaist faction within it?

Whats interesting is that in the USA, May First was "A Day Without an Immigrant", and in South America it was " A Day Without a Gringo", this clearly shows that the latinos at home were conscious about the affects of imperialism. In the USA, they didn't understand that the nature of imperialism needs more-than-cheap wage-labour, and that the imperialists won't grant them their demands.
But just maybe "A Day Without an Immigrant" was a good length of a walk on the path to liberation, and maybe this walk might not take a break just yet.


For unions to achieve what this new movement has already achieved, there would have to be a million unionists out on the streets in major cities and demanding that legislation to make the taft-heartly act be changed.

RS2K and Miles both claim that the only way for the Taft-Hartley to be repealed is if the workers do it themselves, instead of asking the government to repeal it. However, the workers opposition to the Taft-Hartley Act and the immigrants opposition to the Sensenbrenner bill haven't shown they are clearly going to do it themselves just yet.


SO even though there are many things to be critical about politically, the big picture is that this is the return to mayday in the US (moreso because workers fought back by withholding their work and protesting together to effect change than any sort of workers movement nostalgia).

True it was an actual return, although there was the waving of the American Flag, possibly to gain acceptance. If there was a vast anti-Imperialist sentiment at that time it's possible it could have hindered the movement, the "naturalized" Americans could have seen the immigrants as a threat.


If you felt like you were just standing there to remind people that there are still communists and that you believe in revolution, then you were probably just there wearing a che shirt and a sign that said revolution (or handing out the spanish-language version of your paper like the RCP).

No, not me. As a Communist I support the demands of workers to improve conditions, this leaves some room for change, but we do understand that the change we really want won't just be given to us. I'm with the immigrants with getting rid of borders and the rediculous naturalization proccesses. As a Communist I don't believe in borders or naturalization proccesses.


I think we should be involved with the grassroots planning of these events and any left (no Democrats) coalitions that called the walkout or are forming If the Green Party and ANSWER can be involved than so could any of us); we should bring up our criticisms of the direction of some things in the movement and try and argue the way to make the movement more effective.

Exactly, it needs to be understood we have the power to change the world ourselves, and our direction should be grassroots and not electoral politics.


However, the liberal forces also tried to keep people from walking out of work and school but the walkout happened anyway... I belive this is a very good sign of the confidence that workers have gained because of these marches... it will be hard for anyone to slow them down right now.

As of now I think we shouldn't be silent about just what happened, we need more events like this-- if future events can encompass the whole of the oppressed I think a direction can be more coherent. Ultimately it needs to be understood that a series of reforms won't do it for us.


But I disagree that that means things will return to normal and possibly slightly better for the immigrants. Every mass movement of workers that looses is followed by reaction (at worst, the NAZIs after the german revolutionaries failed, at best, Reagan and Christian-right movments after the failure of the 60s movements).

True, aswell as forming future events to ecompass the opressed we need to be prepared to face the reaction.


I believe this represents a sea-change in the political landscape much as 9/11 (except no to the political right) or the WTO protests in Seattle.

I hope you're right, I hope this is a beggining of an awakening. Though, we have two years to prove that reformists, and elections aren't the answer. Perhaps even if the Democrats do nab the office,in face of such past events leading to future events they'll show themselves for who they truely are. Coca-Cola for Republicans, Diet Coke for Democrats.


ok, we should be, all class-consious radicals should be tripping over themselves to get involved! The keys to cracking the US have always been the intersection of race and class and these two issues are at the heart of this new movement.

The Russian Revolution began when the peasents demanded the Czar help them, but then they saw the Czar for who he was, and the rest is history. One things certain we must stay involved, and we must keep in mind the direction for real change isn't in reforms.

[KickMcCann]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 3 2006, 06:21 PM
The Russian Revolution began when the peasents demanded the Czar help them, but then they saw the Czar for who he was, and the rest is history. One things certain we must stay involved, and we must keep in mind the direction for real change isn't in reforms.
To me, this all seems similar to the recent uprisings that happened in France, yes it was dramatic and spectacular, but the fact is they weren't protesting for socialism or communism, they just wanted to secure themselves in their exploitative, capitalist jobs-it was not a protest against the system itself like in 1968.
Now in the case of the Russian Revolution, the peasants and workers began with small, reasonable demands for help from the Czar, but the Czar being completely disconnected from the reality in the streets, payed no attention to their protests and it eventually esacalated into revolution.
But just as we on the left are able to learn from our mistakes and failures in history, so is the ruling class. The people in power are intelligent enough to understand the consequences of their actions, they saw what happened to the czar and other ruling classes, and they too could be eliminated in a revolution if they do not respond properly.
The American ruling class will respond to the protests in a way that will preserve and guarantee their position in power. They understand that if they respond by immediately fulfilling the demands of the protesters, the protesters will feel empowered and demand more. If they do not respond at all, the protest movement will grow more radical and extreme, both in its demands and its methods. Also if they immediately respond with violent opposition and repression, the protest movement will grow in numbers, demands, and legitimacy.
The perfect response, which we saw in France as well as in Nepal, is to let the protests build up alot of steam and momentum, and just as they reach their peak, burst their bubble with a weak reform or comprimise that will satisfy the vast majority of the protesters and get them off the streets, effectively culling the uprising and letting it die off on its own. And this is the response we will see in the United States, I gaurantee it-- a controversial yet effectively weak reform that will silence the mob and deflate the left without dramatically effecting the status quo.
That's a tough response to face, but we must face it nevertheless, the question is, how do we out-manuever the ruling class? 'Tis a very tricky game of chess.