Communists

[Beast]

i have noticed most of you Neo-communists are middle class, yet you seem to think that you speak for people like me (i really am working class, live in a council home, come from a low-income family) yet i dont feel you speak for me, as i am far right, you thrust multiculturulist idealogies on us while you sit in you surburban homes away from it all.

you dont understand alot of things

[Red Axis]

Yes there are such things as champagne socialists, but the completely make me sick. I think you will also find people of diverse economic backgrounds here. I myself am from the burbs, not rich, but middle class, yet I have a real heart for the poor. I myself do not ever want to be rich, and you won't find many people from my demographic (suburban middle class white high school students) saying that.

[which doctor]

Actually, many of us come from working class backgrounds.

Another thing, many of us are still students, so we don't know how it is to be a 'worker'.

[Beast]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 1 2006, 01:18 AM
Yes there are such things as champagne socialists, but the completely make me sick. I think you will also find people of diverse economic backgrounds here. I myself am from the burbs, not rich, but middle class, yet I have a real heart for the poor. I myself do not ever want to be rich, and you won't find many people from my demographic (suburban middle class white high school students) saying that.
real heart for poor?, but have you ever experianced it?

my mam is ill, she lives on benefits, im training in industry, we dont have much money, we see asylum seekers getting more benefits than us, then reds come along and try to tell me whats, what, it aint right

[RedAnarchist]

My dad is a postperson, and has been since the 1970's. I am one of five, and six of us live in a small Victorian terrace typical of the North West of England. I am certaibly no where near middle class, and I never wish to be.

[bezdomni]

I grew up in a neighborhood that was falling apart. Everybody who lived there either worked in the factories and chemical plants down the road or some of the nearby grocery stores. There was the high crime rate typical of low-income areas, usually petty thefts and break-ins, along with (usually gang) violence.


Don't tell me I'm not from the working class. Just because communists do not have 100% of the working class supporting them does not mean we are not a working class movement. In fact, anybody who is not from the working class is working against their own interests - which probably stems from some weird disorder or a very rare generosity and emapthy for all living people.

I really don't care if there are some middle-class people in our movement, as long as they are dedicated and as long as they are revolutionary - they are comrades of mine.

Many of us are either poor or have experienced being poor. Red Axis is a pathetic excuse for a communist. He reeks of authoritarianism, which stems from christian moralism - which is contrary to true revolutionary communism. The petit-bourgeois "communists" usually come in the flavor of people liked Red Axis (the inability to let go of reactionary ideas). No offense, of course. :P

[Fistful of Steel]

The main bread-winner of my family is my 57 year old grand-father who works at a box factory. We've had to move around a lot to get by and put four people in a two bedroom apartment kinda thing. "Your mam is ill"? How ill? And I'm betting if you live in England or America asylum seekers get spat at more often than helped. Reds come along and try and tell you what's what because you're trying to blame immigrants for your troubles when they're human and have as much right to be there as you. If your mother is seriously ill then yes she should definitely be provided for, but that has nothing to do with people who come from drought, starvation, poverty and genocide ridden countries trying to just be alive.

[Americancommi]

If you feel this way then why do you support the right wing, who really don't give a shit about you. You say that middle class people don't understand what your going through but can you honestly say the millionares in the right wing understand you when they pass tax policies that only benefit other millionares.

[Red Axis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 01:47 AM
Many of us are either poor or have experienced being poor. Red Axis is a pathetic excuse for a communist. He reeks of authoritarianism, which stems from christian moralism - which is contrary to true revolutionary communism. The petit-bourgeois "communists" usually come in the flavor of people liked Red Axis (the inability to let go of reactionary ideas). No offense, of course. :P
So then Lenin was reactionary, because he grew up richer than I am. And another thing, Christian moralism? I want to abolish the Church. I don't think believing in something means religion. And perhaps I reek of authoritarianism, but allowing everyone to do what they want just leads back to capitalism.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Personally I was raised on benifits. My father had an accident when I was just under 2, and didn't work again untl I was 16/17, then my parents split up. My mother worked, and still does work part-time.

Although the best part of the last year I have been a student working part time, prior to that I was working as a barperson for minimum wage 40-50 hours a week (with clean up time about 60) this was with no benifits, or bonuses. Christmas Eve, Day, and New years were all at standard rate even at 3 or 4 in the morning. That kinda sucked, but there are those that have been far far worse off.

I think you may have got a fairer picture now Beast, as there are lots of exceptions to your apparent rule, so I think your point is left a little deflated.

[Red Axis]

Where do most of you guys live anyway? I live in the Midwest, and my father's job is about to be lost anyway, so I may soon be poor.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Beast
we see asylum seekers getting more benefits than us

Do you now?

You open their mail and see the size of their checks?

You follow them around and watch them eat fancy meals at government expense?

Or perhaps you imagine that if the government "rounded them all up" and "threw them all out", that you'd get some more benefits, eh?

FOOL!

The government is run by and for the rich bastards...and they're not going to give you the sweat off their balls if they think they can get away with it.

Of course, they will ship your sorry ass off to Iraq or Afghanistan if you're damnfool enough to join up.

That's what they think of you: nothing but dumb cannon-fodder!

So go ahead; support the BNP or some other rightwing fucktard group in the hope that they'll "do something for you" because you're "native born British".

They'll do something "for" you alright; and afterwards you'll need surgical repair of your asshole! :angry:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[bezdomni]

So then Lenin was reactionary, because he grew up richer than I am.
No. Lenin wasn't an authoritarian christian...at least not my interpretation of him. If he was, then yes, Lenin was reactionary.

That said, I am a Leninist.


And another thing, Christian moralism? I want to abolish the Church.
You said you are a christian, and you said drugs should be illegal because they lead to all sorts of immorality. Maybe that idea didn't stem from christianity, but your willingness to enfroce bourgeois morals is not in line with the revolutionary worker's movement.



I don't think believing in something means religion.
Belief in God = Theism
Theism = Religion.

Religion, organized or disorganized is still religion. Disorganized religion is less reactionary than that of the organized sort - but that is not much of an achievement.

Liberation Theology is theism at its best....which, again, does not say much.


And perhaps I reek of authoritarianism, but allowing everyone to do what they want just leads back to capitalism.
If you had any grasp of Historical Materialism, then you would know that reverting back to capitalism is impossible after socialism/communism has been established. Capitalism didn't regress back to Feudalism because Feudalism is inferior to Capitalism...just as Capitalism should be inferior to Socialism.

Historically, authoritarian approaches to establishing socialism have failed - because it results in a new ruling class emerging. Democracy is as crucial to Socialism as oxygen is to human life, this is the basis of Marxism!

There needs to be suppression of bourgeois ideas, but this suppression will inherently occur by the masses, not the leaders of the party. To put all of your trust in an elite few is to put all of your doubt in the working class. The masses just need their cages to be rattled by the vanguard - not their goddam papers changed!

EDIT: To answer your irrelevent question, Red Axis, I live in Houston.

[Red Axis]

But it would not be an elite few? What the hell do you think I want? A Stalinist empire with a personality cult around myself? Actually the contrary. I want a democratic socialist society where all religions are free to worship but not influence politics. I hate to say it, but people want populism, not anarchism or libertarianistic rhetoric. They will say, "There goes the libertines again." I respect you as a communist, but I do not like your characterization of me as petty-bourgeois. I didn't choose to be born middle class, it just happened that way.

[violencia.Proletariat]

What is the middle class beast? What is their relationship to the means of production?

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 1 2006, 02:11 AM
.

But it would not be an elite few? What the hell do you think I want? A Stalinist empire with a personality cult around myself?
When you say you are an "authoritarian", such things are assumed. Not necessarily the personality cult around yourself, but some form of autocratic leadership.

I don't necessarily have disdain for the middle class, hell, my dad would be considered middle class now. I'm not "blaming" you for your economic conditions, I was just trying to clarify that authoritarian ideas usually stem from the petit-bourgeois revolutionaries, not the working class. That is, of course, a generalization.


I hate to say it, but people want populism, not anarchism or libertarianistic rhetoric. They will say, "There goes the libertines again."
How do you know what the people want?


I respect you as a communist, but I do not like your characterization of me as petty-bourgeois. I didn't choose to be born middle class, it just happened that way.
As I said, I don't blame you for your class. That would be ridiculous.

I think the authoritarian approach to pretty much any form of Marxism is the incorrect approach.

[The Bitter Hippy]

as far as i understand it, it's more to do with values, education and how you are raised that defines middle class, not as much a relationship to the means of production.

That said, most middle class people, while not owning the means of production (ie: not being the ones directly benefitting from the value of their labour), they have much autonomy over how produce is produced: their labour is unalienated. A good example of this is the surgeon: he does not own his hospital or operating room, but he does things his way and tells others how to do things. was any of that of use?

Thus the middle class is a tool used by the ruling classes to blur the line between the Bourgeoisie and the Proletariat: They usually identify with the bourgeiosie, but are in truth closer to being proletarians.

[bezdomni]

You've got it pretty much spot on with the doctor example.

The middle class differs from the working class in their autonomy over their labor. However, they are not bourgeois because they do not own the means of production...that is why they are the middle class.

[IronColumn]

I am an extremely wealthy champagne and caviar socialist.
And what of it?

Next thing I know you'll be telling me socialists actually have to do things to help people. Rubbish and poppycock I say to that notion.

[encephalon]

A lot of us here are working class, including myself. I work for what little I have. By European standards, actually, I'm dirt fucking poor. And that's being in the middle of the US. So yeah, you and the BNP can shove it up your asses. Or, rather, as redstar suggests, the BNP will probably do it for the both of you.

But make no mistake. It will be yours before theirs.

[overlord]

So some of you guys are poor? So what? Poverty is no excuse for communism. There is an old proverb. If you don't have money you have problems. If you have money you have more problems.

Communism is the road to hell that is paved with good intentions. All it will give you is more poverty, repression, hunger, fear, confusion, unhappyness, disillusionment, isolation, depression, monotony, sickness, death, famine and disaster. And if you don't beleive me look at the 20th century.

Andrew Carnegie was a poor immigrant. Did he say, 'oh well, i'm just another sorry looser' or did he found America's largest steel empire? His money established America's public library system. Look at Cornelius Vanderbilt. He never went to school, but worked, and worked and worked from age 13, buying one steamship after another. Some of you guys who are down and out need to pick yourselves up, dust yourself off and start all over again. By their actions evil capitalists like these turned America into a superpower.

I'm getting sick and tired of the winging and the looser attitudes around here. Any poor person can one day become a billionaire if that if that is what they beleive and I don't beleive the propaganda from admin and mods that says you guys are not capable. I want to see some positive attitudes people!

[KC]

Andrew Carnegie was a poor immigrant. Did he say, 'oh well, i'm just another sorry looser' or did he found America's largest steel empire? His money established America's public library system. Look at Cornelius Vanderbilt. He never went to school, but worked, and worked and worked from age 13, buying one steamship after another. Some of you guys who are down and out need to pick yourselves up, dust yourself off and start all over again.

Okay, Samuel Smiles. :lol:

[Cheung Mo]

Red is one of the swastika's colours and the Axis was the name of the Nazi-led side in WW2 (I have no love for either side actually, but that's a different discussion.).

So when somebody named Red Axis comes advocating social conservatism, legal moralism, and authoritarianism, it is natural that alarm bells will go off in the heads and in the hearts of true comrades.

[jaycee]

be careful cheung mo they restricted me for not supporting WW2

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 11:02 AM


Andrew Carnegie was a poor immigrant. Did he say, 'oh well, i'm just another sorry looser' or did he found America's largest steel empire? His money established America's public library system. Look at Cornelius Vanderbilt. He never went to school, but worked, and worked and worked from age 13, buying one steamship after another. Some of you guys who are down and out need to pick yourselves up, dust yourself off and start all over again. By their actions evil capitalists like these turned America into a superpower.

I'm sure he had such empathy for the plight of his workers, thats why he sent in the Pinkerton thugs at Homestead eh?

Fuck that noise.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 12:02 PM
So some of you guys are poor? So what? Poverty is no excuse for communism.
If the "communist" is poor, let's accuse the "communist" of being a "loser". If the "communist" is not poor, let's accuse the "communist" of being a hypocrite.

You reactionaries are pathetic.


Communism is the road to hell that is paved with good intentions. All it will give you is more poverty, repression, hunger, fear, confusion, unhappyness, disillusionment, isolation, depression, monotony, sickness, death, famine and disaster.

How do you know?


And if you don't beleive me look at the 20th century.

The 20th century tells us nothing about communism. You're just misinformed.


Andrew Carnegie was a poor immigrant. Did he say, 'oh well, i'm just another sorry looser' or did he found America's largest steel empire? His money established America's public library system. Look at Cornelius Vanderbilt. He never went to school, but worked, and worked and worked from age 13, buying one steamship after another. Some of you guys who are down and out need to pick yourselves up, dust yourself off and start all over again. By their actions evil capitalists like these turned America into a superpower.

I'm getting sick and tired of the winging and the looser attitudes around here. Any poor person can one day become a billionaire if that if that is what they beleive

Sure, and you can win the lottery tomorrow :lol:


and I don't beleive the propaganda from admin and mods that says you guys are not capable.

Huh? "Propaganda from admin and mods"???

You're not even a good "self-help guru" :lol:

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 03:02 PM


I'm getting sick and tired of the winging and the looser attitudes around here. Any poor person can one day become a billionaire if that if that is what they beleive and I don't beleive the propaganda from admin and mods that says you guys are not capable. I want to see some positive attitudes people!
Yeah, it is economically feasible for every person to be a billionaire. :rolleyes:


The capitalist economy just doesn't work that way. Socialism is the liberation of the working class, not "working harder" for the bosses and eventually become the bosses if we are lucky, but to create a system in which every person is the boss.

When everybody is the boss, nobody is the boss.

We do have positive attitudes; positive attitudes of overthrowing capitalism. Would you tell a slave to have "positive attitudes" about slavery? Or would you tell him to throw off his chains?

[LoneRed]

what a typical capitalist response.

All i can say is actually find out on your own what communism is, and stop going by the bourgeois press, think for yourself kid. your gonna get nowhere in life if you live day to day by what they tell you

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by overlord
Any poor person can one day become a billionaire...

And here's how to do it! (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=49512)


I want to see some positive attitudes people!

Try the Scientology board. :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[overlord]

The 20th century tells us nothing about communism. You're just misinformed.

:huh: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

ahem, sorry about that.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 02:00 AM

The 20th century tells us nothing about communism. You're just misinformed.

:huh: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

ahem, sorry about that.
Would you mind not spamming? Make a point or don't post.

It is obvious what was meant here. Lenin added to (amongst others) Marx's work, and what hapened as a result of him an other "communists" is denounced as anything but by many members here. Actually the "attempts" of the 20th century are directly contradictory to the fundamental principles it is founded upon, there isn't even a strong argument to suggest that many of the nations ever even achieved a transitory state.

Think about where you are and the ideas that are being represented, if you can't escape a petty linguistic issue don't inflict it upon us. It is quite apparent that 20th century attempts impress few of the unrestricted members, although there are attempts to address propoganda relating to them. You may mistake this for appologism, but in most cases it is not.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by Hegemonicretribution+May 5 2006, 11:32 AM--> (Hegemonicretribution @ May 5 2006, 11:32 AM)
[email protected] 5 2006, 02:00 AM

The 20th century tells us nothing about communism. You're just misinformed.

:huh: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

ahem, sorry about that.
Would you mind not spamming? Make a point or don't post.

It is obvious what was meant here. Lenin added to (amongst others) Marx's work, and what hapened as a result of him an other "communists" is denounced as anything but by many members here. Actually the "attempts" of the 20th century are directly contradictory to the fundamental principles it is founded upon, there isn't even a strong argument to suggest that many of the nations ever even achieved a transitory state. [/b]
Pretty much. However, it's pretty normal for reactionaries to use strawmen or not even knowing what the hell they are talking about, and resorting to nonsensical cliches and myths, as well as emotionally-appealing propaganda.

Kinda like creationists, when they pretend that evolutionary theory is "ridiculous" when they don't even understand it and therefore they make themselves look as the ones defending a ridiculous idea.

[overlord]

Pretty much. However, it's pretty normal for reactionaries to use strawmen or not even knowing what the hell they are talking about, and resorting to nonsensical cliches and myths, as well as emotionally-appealing propaganda

AHHHHH!!! Those 100 million deaths are 'emotional propaganda'! You guys are really far gone. I'll visit you at the asylum some day to conduct some experiments on the deranged.