how ridiculous

[Oh-Dae-Su]

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/internatio...,412932,00.html (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,412932,00.html)


flag next to a thong is insulting to their faith :lol: :rolleyes:

[red team]

I've seen some women wear flags woven as thongs. :lol:

[Led Zeppelin]

I don't really know why you wrote "Muslims at it again"...what do you expect? The religion hasn't been through an enlightenment era (due to the lack of material conditions) so it's only normal for the majority of Muslims to be sensitive to things like these.

Christians used to burn people for not "accepting their god" before they went through the enlightenment era, at least Muslims don't kill people en masse for not "accepting their god".

[LSD]

Christians used to burn people for not "accepting their god" before they went through the enlightenment era

The enlightenment didn't change Christianity, it just changed people's perecption of it.

And, regardless, there are leading Christians today who would like to go back to mass heathen-burnings! :o

Religion cannot be made "progressive" or "tolerant", it is what it is and that is a reactionary and stultifying social superstition. The only way that relgion ceases being a barrior to social process is when its adherants stop taking its precepts seriously.

That's what gradually happened in the first world over the past few centuries and it's what must eventually happen in the Muslim world.

There is simply no place for Islam, or Christianity, in the next stage of human societal evolution.


at least Muslims don't kill people en masse for not "accepting their god".

No, they just kill them for being gay or Jewish, converting, or being an independent woman.

Don't kid yourself. Islam is no "better" than Christianity when it comes to barbarism and intolerance. It's not particularly worse either, of course, but that's really not saying much.

There's a tendency in the left today to romantisize Islam; to buy into the liberal myth of a "religion of peace" and to cast Muslims as sorts of "noble savages".

Not only is such an attitude patently reactionary, but is also subtly racist.

There's an assumption being made by these, overwhelmingly white, first-world "leftists" that Arabs are just "not smart enough" to be rational. That they "have no choice" but to "be Muslims" and we need to be "tolerant" of that.

Well, I call bullshit! :angry:

Religion isn't an "attribute" and it isn't a fucking disability, it is a choice and it is a belief and as communists and materialists we have a fundamental obligation to call out superstition and confront prejeduce.

The oppression of women or homosexuals cannot be ignored because it's "part of a culture". It's wrong and we cannot be afraid to say so.

Of course there are material causes for the backwardness of the third world and yes, the popularity of fundamentalist Islam is directly related to the economic imperialism of the first world but it is not enough to recognize that fact.

There are a number of ways for the Muslim world to go at this point and it is certainly possible that nationalist Islam could have an, ultimately, progressive role in launching wars of national liberation. But there are better ways for this to happen!

It is, in the end, up to the people of the middle east themselves to decide. But a secular democratic option does exist.

Let's not discount the possiblity of a truly progressive force in the Muslim world just yet. Otherwise we risk decreeing a self-fullfilling prophecy. :(

[Oh-Dae-Su]

hahaha Massoud your retarded, you didn't read the article:


"On Friday evening we were threatened by 11 masked men who demand that we take down the Saudi Arabian flag,"


"On Saturday night there were 20 masked men armed with knives and sticks. They threatened to get violent and even bomb the place unless we black out the Iranian and Saudia Arabian flags on the poster as well," said Lobscheid.
:angry: it pisses me off, we should stand strong against these imbiciles, although i understand the guy didn't want any trouble, but fuck this the police and the government should stay strong like Australia did and say if you dont like it get the fuck back to your country, this is Germany!!

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by LSD
The enlightenment didn't change Christianity, it just changed people's perecption of it.


The perception of Christianity by the majority of Christians is what constitutes Christianity as a religion. Same for every other religion.

If the majority of Christians decide to not take the bible so seriously and view it in a more liberal way, it means that the religion Christianity has changed, since without followers there is no religion.


And, regardless, there are leading Christians today who would like to go back to mass heathen-burnings!

They are a small minority.


Religion cannot be made "progressive" or "tolerant", it is what it is and that is a reactionary and stultifying social superstition. The only way that relgion ceases being a barrior to social process is when its adherants stop taking its precepts seriously.

That's what gradually happened in the first world over the past few centuries and it's what must eventually happen in the Muslim world.

There is simply no place for Islam, or Christianity, in the next stage of human societal evolution.


I agree with that, I never really said otherwise.

The point is; the adherents of Christianity in the first world stopped taking its precepts seriously because of the material conditions they lived in, the Muslim world does not have that luxury. It's not their fault they are behind in that respect, it's the "fault" of historical materialism. That makes it pointless to make threads such as these, to attack a religion --or rather-- the adherents of a religion, for something they have no power over.


No, they just kill them for being gay or Jewish, converting, or being an independent woman.


So did the Christians when they lived by the laws of feudal material conditions.


Don't kid yourself. Islam is no "better" than Christianity when it comes to barbarism and intolerance. It's not particularly worse either, of course, but that's really not saying much.


True, they are equally bad in that respect, but I don't really care about the "goodness" or "badness" of a religion.

[Redeye]

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 30 2006, 07:07 PM
hahaha Massoud your retarded, you didn't read the article:


"On Friday evening we were threatened by 11 masked men who demand that we take down the Saudi Arabian flag,"


"On Saturday night there were 20 masked men armed with knives and sticks. They threatened to get violent and even bomb the place unless we black out the Iranian and Saudia Arabian flags on the poster as well," said Lobscheid.
:angry: it pisses me off, we should stand strong against these imbiciles, although i understand the guy didn't want any trouble, but fuck this the police and the government should stay strong like Australia did and say if you dont like it get the fuck back to your country, this is Germany!!
Only drongo Costello said that. He was trying to get popular support to get the courage to mount a leadership challange against Jackboot Johnnie. however it failed to gain him much support at all.

[Orange Juche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 03:27 AM
I don't really know why you wrote "Muslims at it again"...what do you expect? The religion hasn't been through an enlightenment era (due to the lack of material conditions) so it's only normal for the majority of Muslims to be sensitive to things like these.
I continuously see Islamic sympathising on the left, and I simply don't get it. People who bash Christianity are sympathetic towards the Muslim religion. Islam is just as much bullshit as Christianity, if not more. Its not Christianity thats the enemy. Its all religion.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Massoud
That makes it pointless to make threads such as these, to attack a religion --or rather-- the adherents of a religion, for something they have no power over.

It's not at all "pointless".

For reasons that entirely escape me, people come to this board carrying a whole load of superstitious baggage.

They need to learn why they have to trash that crap...and one of the best ways to get that message across is to show people what sorts of behavior the superstitious engage in.

We hope that when they see with their own eyes the cruelty, stupidity, and absurdity of superstitious behavior, they'll stop believing in its premises.

And, that actually happens here. :D

We've actually had people start "I've had enough!" threads and come out for atheism...which, of course, gives them a real shot at becoming communist revolutionaries.

It's unfortunate that some people occasionally, from disgust with the behavior of western imperialists, "latch on" to some perceived "eastern" religion...because they think it's "cool" or "exotic" or "not as bad" as the western religions.

They are every bit as bad as the western religions...and the only reason we don't write more about them on this board is because we don't live in the "east". The western religions are the ones we confront every day here...whereas we don't normally run into the eastern religions except when someone brings them up.

No one has ever called me on the telephone or knocked on my door to explain the merits of Buddhism or Hinduism or Islam to me. :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Dean]

It was just as superstitutious on your part for you to claim that I was superstitutious, redstar. You believed in something I had already discredited. You are no different than those who base their lives around concepts of gods or other dogmas; you create an idea and fear or attack it, without realizing that you are attacking yourself more than anything else.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 03:08 AM
It was just as superstitutious on your part for you to claim that I was superstitutious, redstar. You believed in something I had already discredited. You are no different than those who base their lives around concepts of gods or other dogmas; you create an idea and fear or attack it, without realizing that you are attacking yourself more than anything else.
I have no idea to what your incoherent (and semi-literate) post refers...nor am I aware of anything I have said that you've "discredited".

Nor do you evidently have anything of relevance to say with regard to this topic.

I thought you found a new message board to plague with your nonsense.

Did they ban you? :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Dean]

That's right, when you don't have much to say attack my sentence structure. Compelling arguments there.

In regard to the one point you made - that is, wondering what made you superstittous - it was your assumption that I was religious when we argued before on the same issue. I had clearly pointed out on several occassions that I didn't believe in any kind of god, but it didn't appear to compute in your head.

[England Expects]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 07:55 AM
I don't really know why you wrote "Muslims at it again"...what do you expect? The religion hasn't been through an enlightenment era (due to the lack of material conditions) so it's only normal for the majority of Muslims to be sensitive to things like these.

Christians used to burn people for not "accepting their god" before they went through the enlightenment era, at least Muslims don't kill people en masse for not "accepting their god".
didn't they have an enlightenment of sorts in the period 800-1100? Before Genghis Khan went for a wee stroll.

[overlord]

How could that offend someone's religion. is islam nationalist?


it pisses me off, we should stand strong against these imbiciles, although i understand the guy didn't want any trouble, but fuck this the police and the government should stay strong like Australia did and say if you dont like it get the fuck back to your country, this is Germany!!

ooooooooooooooo! sounds racist!!! You're gunna get it from the thought police now mate!!

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by England Expects+--> (England Expects)didn't they have an enlightenment of sorts in the period 800-1100?[/b]

No, the means of production of those nation-states remained feudal (or semi-feudal).


RS
It's not at all "pointless".

For reasons that entirely escape me, people come to this board carrying a whole load of superstitious baggage.

They need to learn why they have to trash that crap...and one of the best ways to get that message across is to show people what sorts of behavior the superstitious engage in.

We hope that when they see with their own eyes the cruelty, stupidity, and absurdity of superstitious behavior, they'll stop believing in its premises.

And, that actually happens here.

Well, I was talking about the religion as a whole, and not about individuals. I think that's the problem you have when debating religion, you minimize everything to the level of the individual, instead of focusing on the movement as a whole.

Your ideas are all well and nice on an individual level, but it can never be applied to the movement as a whole. The fact of the matter is that material conditions are key in the development of religion(s), if the material conditions are lacking you're not gonna get anywhere with petty propaganda campaigns.

So my point is that people should stop whining about the overtly backward nature of those religions which are present in places of the world where the material conditions are not developed to the extent which is necessary for enlightenment.

And yes, I am against all religion too...so was Marx.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

well the fact is that these religious wackos are wanting to impose their religious doctrine in foreign secular countries, than i guess nobody is going to be safe in their own country if there are muslim wackos in your neighberhood!!! SCREW THAT!!! shit, when a woman goes to Saudi Arabia etc.. she is FORCED! to wear a damn veil and shit! so i think the governments of the secular world or in Europe and America they should stand strong and just put it simply : "You will not impose your laws, this is a secular country, and if you don't like it GET THE FUCK OUT!!!"

[TC]

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 30 2006, 02:38 AM
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/internatio...,412932,00.html (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,412932,00.html)


flag next to a thong is insulting to their faith :lol: :rolleyes:
uh, the issue wasn't that they had Iranian and Saudi flags on a poster with someone in a thong, the issue was that they had Iranian and Saudi flags on an advertisement for a brothel, thus implying that Iranian and Saudi football fans would want to use prostitutes.

Thats frankly a legitimate thing to be upset about.