Red Monday

[BobKKKindle$]

Dear all; this is not so much theory, but I feel it is still something that should be discussed as very important to our struggle; after all, an ounce of action is worth a tonne of theory..

So, whether you be a Leninist, Maoist, Anarchist, Synidcalist - Imagine for a second that the government has been overthrown. They are in exile, impriosned or executed. Of course, for several days after the revolution people frolic, dance, and cry - they cannoy believe what is happened. but what would you then do? How would you set about changing society?

[YKTMX]

Well, there's a few pre-conditions for a working class revolution and the creation of socialism.

1) Independent organs of working class power in the workplace e.g. Soviets
2) A revolutionary Marxist vanguard
3) The destabilization, or the dissapearance, of the main organs of violence in the state e.g the army, the police
4) The mass seizure of private property and the means of production by the state
5) The deconstruction of the capitalist state and its replacement with a socialist transitional state
6) A economy, planned by the workers' councils and co-ordinated by the workers' state, which has as its goal the equalization of consumption and access to productive resources (education, transport, housing etc)
7) An unrelenting assault on bourgeois thought



Then we can all get drunk and sing the Internationale.

[enigma2517]

The physical removal of the current governing body would be the last step in a series of very extensive and specific conditions.

While some (myself included) might disagree with YKTMX and the vanguardist/statist paradigm, he is certainly spot on about everything else.

Most of those "changes in society" that you talk about will already have begun through the use of a plethora of different organizations. By the time the state falls, a whole series of local councils, regional federations, and lots of other types of groups will already be operating in working class neighborhoods. In fact, these programs and organizations will be the corner stone for raising class consciouness...much like the Black Panther's free breakfast program or something of that nature.

[redstar2000]

Get the water and the electricity back on again!

Do an inventory of the available food supplies...and figure out what a feasible rationing plan would look like.

The militia must harshly suppress any violent criminal activity.

Insofar as it is within our capabilities, people must be given a sense that the "new order" works.

If people have the sense that "everything has collapsed" and it's "every man for himself", then we won't have communism, we'll have savagery. :o

So it's extremely important to get the "material stuff" in shape to operate right away!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[YKTMX]

Why do you assume a material catastrophe?

[anomaly]

If the revolution is so destructive, than redstar2000 is probably spot-on.

But other than that, I'd argue for something much more autonomous than that which YKTMX proposes.

Eliminate any private property, but make it common property, not property of the state.

Set up some form of communication network between workplaces and autonomous regions. This will be vital to coordinate production.

Within each workplace, an appropriate TLV system should be established, and this will require further communication between centers of production as well as centers of distribution.

And then with such a system in place, we'd wing it--try it out, see what works and what doesn't, make appropriate changes.

Also, probably within each workplace, the task of modernization would take place. Eliminate any job which can be replaced by machines. Engineers will probably prove rather useful. ;)

Contrary to all this talk of centralization, I think the stress has to be decentralize, decentralize, decentralize.

[bezdomni]

-Relentless suppression of bourgeois thought.
-Active discouragement of religion (although not outright banning).
-Establishment of a truly democratic state and a democratic workplace.

I agree with Anomaly on how workplaces should be run. LTVs, production centres being distribution centres, mechanization of the workplace...et cetera.

However, I believe a democratic state - subordinate to the people and the people's constitution must be in order to have these reforms established. I think one of the most crucial parts of the revolutionary state (which shold be dictated by the constitution) is expediency. The state should do what it needs to do as quick as possible, while remaining subordinate to the people and then abolish itself (or wither away, as Lenin said).

I don't think there will be so much of a vanguard leadership in the revolutionary state, there will only need to be a vangaurd at the begining of the revolution. the vanguard will eventually encompass all revolutionary workers and will evolve into a united front of the people. If the vanguard is still a minority after the revolution - then something probably went wrong.

There must be democracy, liberty and progress at any cost.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think YKTMX's first point is the most important. If the government collapsed because of social and labor movements and crippleing general strikes and other worker actions, then there would be a good chance that workers have already developed networks and solidarity and the ability to run the country themselves through the lessons and necissities of such a large struggle. For historical parallels, this scinerio would be like Germany After WWI. If there have been large movements leading to the revolutionary crisis, then there will probably be several large worker and socialist parties trying to win the confidence of the majority of the working class movement.

If the government suddenly collapsed tomorrow because there was an earthquake or something in Washington DC that swallowed up congress and the white house and all the lobbyists, the pentagon, the supreme court and so on, then a socialist outcome would be highly unlikely because workers have no way of effectivly taking over society... at least right now they have less ability than the cops, nra militia-types, right-wing christians, the national gaurd, the local and state governemtns, and so on have to take power in such an unlikely event.

[More Fire for the People]

I generally agree with a more elaborated version of YKTMX programme.
1. The transformation of pre-revolutionary workers’ committees into soviet-style independent workers’ committees. Generally this will entail the creation of new workers’ committees in the more oppressed and backwards areas of a country.
2. The arming of the industrial vanguard en masse to prevent full-scale reaction by capital aka White Terror. The organization of the agricultural proletarians into popular assemblies and the organization of agrarian soviets on large farmlands.
3. Disarming and disbandment of the standing army and police. In fact, we should take the weapons from the police and army and place them in the hands of workers’ militias.
4. Calling of a Constituent Assembly with something like ‘500,000 person = 1 representative’ or if soviets are organized rapidly one representative for each soviet.
5. Centralization of the means of production under the workers’ state.
6. The organization of the economy under a programme of central planning by workers’ committees. But more immediately: a check on all food stuffs and the institution of fair rationing.
7. A Cultural Revolution, a real Cultural Revolution.
8. Mass production and distribution of alcohol and karaoke machines.

[rouchambeau]

That's exactly why we should not see "the revolution" as some finite event.

[Fistful of Steel]

Well, when the government is overthrown first and foremost it's necessary to not let the wrong kind of "anarchy" to take control, i.e. warlords fighting for territory and people looting like nuts for useless shit. I think it's necessary in conjunction with the actual uprising for a raising of class consciousness, so that when the revolution does occur the proletariat and average people will be well aware of the consequences and be supportive of dismantling the state apparatus. Then we all get drunk and have a big party.

[chimx]

play counter strike

[red_che]

I pretty much agree with YKTMX and Hopscotch.

Assuming this is the actual Red Monday (btw, on Monday is the International Labor Day, greetings comrades!), those conditions must be set up. And then, to add up, an unrelentless and continuing proletarian cultural revolution.

[VermontLeft]

i think that this thread show that a lot of people have a misconception of what "revolution" is.

A real communist revolution doesn't just "happen" one day, it builds up from mass proletarian consciousness.

The bourgeois government doesn't just "dissapear" or "collapse" and then the workers rise up. The way that Marxism works is that the bourgeois governemtn falls because the workers rise up!

If a real communist movement is so strong that its "exiled" the the government, we don't need to start worrying about how to "change" society cause itll already be changed. thats how the revolution happened!! :o

sure there are some thinhgs thatll then have to be done. i think redstars righjt in that resourcesll have to be secured and whatever. but thers no"theory" to this question. ;)

:)

[apathy maybe]

I feel that any centralised governing structures should be eliminated ASAP. That means, the state, organs of the state (police and military), any group that tries to gain power (Leninists) and then we can work on corporate scum.

I agree that infrastructure will need to be gotten back up ASAP as well.

One thing that we have to remember is that there will be a lot of people without anything to do. While those in essential services (water, electricity, hospitals) will hopefully still turn up to work, there will be no work for those in the banking and public service sectors (and others of course).

I feel that things will be done at a local level, each city will want to have an assembly that can organise basic essentials such as food. People will still have houses, but those who don't, hopefully houses will be found for them.

Food looters, rapists and other scum should be removed from the population, but all those in prison will have to be let out, who would want the job of determining who is scum and who isn't out of that lot.

Weapons for the masses is another idea. Loot the army and police weapons stores, be prepared for a counter attack by fascists and externals.

With a general lawlessness we have to watch out for people carrying out private vendettas.

But above all, eliminate (killing might be a bit harsh) those who try and claim that power should be given to them. No matter what the reason, if someone asks for power, they will misuse it. Decentralisation is a must.

[piet11111]

i would first set-up a group of construction workers and start working on getting the essentials started.
then the group of construction workers will start repairing homes etc.
after that the group will be transported to other towns to start repairing.

after the construction/repairing in my local region is done i will leave the group and join the militia.
when everything is done i will probably start up a weapons factory where i will start mass producing ak-103's + munitions.
we would need them for practise in the most favorable situation or defense in the worst.
another reason for producing weapons is to support foreign revolutions when they appear and to arm groups of people that are the victims of agression (darfur anyone ?)