Das Kapital

[Rawthentic]

I recently bought on Amazon the Gateway edition of Das Kapital. In the introduction, there is quite an anti-Marxist message and comments. For example:

-"As prosperity grows, 'class consciousness' disappears. Modern capitalist society is in the process of establishing a common denominator for all men irrespective of their social origin, by standardization of living conditions and of ways of life and by creation of equal opportunities at all. Marx's theory of the 'struggle of the classes' is fast becoming obsolete with the equally rapid disappearance of the 'proletariat.'

-"Marx proved equally wrong in his assumption that the proletariat is eagerly awaiting an opportune moment to establish its dictatorship over the defeated property-owning classes; and that the establishment of socialism must by necessity be effected by violent means.

- ...." but because these economic doctrines are presented in the context of philosophy which subordinates the problems of human freedom and human dignity to the issues of who should own the means of production and how wealth should be distributed."

"The economic theories of Das Kapital are no longer an active challenge to us."

- "A century has passed since Marx first developed his theses on the mechanism of capitalist society. A great deal has happened during those years, but precious little to confirm the validity of his allegations. Most of his theses have failed to stand the test of time."

- "However, it was this ethical and messianic character of Marx's theory which gave Das Kapital a power of driving people to the barricades. It was a doctrine of deliverance of the proletariat, a myth of a class with which Marx himself had no direct bonds or contacts, a bible of technological messianism."

- "Even today, while many of the theories developed in Das Kapital tend to be obsolete, and most of the arguments used in support of these theories are no longer relevant, one-fifth of the globe is governed by a system which traces its political ethos to the writings of Karl Marx."

:o . so where's the counter argument comrades?

[ComradeRed]

It sounds like one of Ian Steedman's criticisms "No, it's bad, really just trust me and don't read the book." :P

By the by, who wrote the introduction?

It is no surprise that a bourgeois economist would have such moot arguments, I would put no stock in it speaking from my knowledge of how tragicomically flawed bourgeois economics is (Debunking Economics anyone?).

[anomaly]

Originally posted by Intro
Modern capitalist society is in the process of establishing a common denominator for all men irrespective of their social origin, by standardization of living conditions and of ways of life and by creation of equal opportunities at all.
Bullshit. That just doesn't match observed reality.

Even my capitalist teachers will acknowledge that 'equal opportunities' are a myth. One's 'opportunities' are directly proportional to one's class.


Marx's theory of the 'struggle of the classes' is fast becoming obsolete with the equally rapid disappearance of the 'proletariat.
Most are now in agreement that it is the middle class which is disappearing, at least in the US (and Europe also, probably). The proletariat is actually growing.


Marx proved equally wrong in his assumption that the proletariat is eagerly awaiting an opportune moment to establish its dictatorship over the defeated property-owning classes; and that the establishment of socialism must by necessity be effected by violent means.
First of all, the 'bourgeoisie' isn't neccesarily the only class which owns property. They control the means of production (private property), but many proletarians own homes, for example.

The rest of it ignores another theory of Marx's: the materialist conception of history. There is a reason communism hasn't come about yet.


Most of his theses have failed to stand the test of time
Surplus value does exist. And wage-slavery also exists. Wage is sold as a commodity. Marx's idea of a falling rate of profit appears to be accurate. Marx's Labor Theory of Value also appears to be accurate (just talk to ComradeRed :lol: ), though it may have a few kinks in it. (I'm not really sure)

Marx's critique of capitalism is, along with historical materialism, one of his greatest achievements, in my opinion. I really don't know what these people are talking about.


It was a doctrine of deliverance of the proletariat, a myth of a class with which Marx himself had no direct bonds or contacts, a bible of technological messianism
The proletariat doesn't exist? Is the author mad?

Also, I might be wrong here, but I believe Marx actually did have some direct contacts with proletarians.


one-fifth of the globe is governed by a system which traces its political ethos to the writings of Karl Marx
Quite a hefty estimate, no matter how inaccurate.

The so-called 'Communist' states are representative of nothing Marx wrote.

That's got to be the worst intro I've ever read. And I only read those few parts! :lol:

[amanondeathrow]

Modern capitalist society is in the process of establishing a common denominator for all men irrespective of their social origin, by standardization of living conditions and of ways of life and by creation of equal opportunities at all.

Poverty is Growing in the United States (http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/1788/1/187)

Of course living conditions have improved somewhat in the last century; that is the nature of progress.

No where does Marx deny that Capitalism was not a necessary and progressive step, albeit an ugly one.

But the poverty figures, and many other indicators, are illustrating that capitalism has lived past its welcome and has served its purpose.


but because these economic doctrines are presented in the context of philosophy which subordinates the problems of human freedom and human dignity to the issues of who should own the means of production and how wealth should be distributed

All history has shown us that those who control the means of production are treated with more dignity by the government then any homeless person or factory worker.

Marx was not "subordinating" the issues of freedom, but pointing out that the only way that human dignity can be protected for all is by giving everyone economic power.

I would like to know how the author believes human dignity can be protected in a world where so few control the lives of so many.


"Marx proved equally wrong in his assumption that the proletariat is eagerly awaiting an opportune moment to establish its dictatorship over the defeated property-owning classes; and that the establishment of socialism must by necessity be effected by violent means.

So the Russian Revolution did not overthrow the land owning elite and establish a dictatorship of the preliterate?

How else could the working class gain control of the state without resorting to violence? It is simple logic that to defeat an extremely powerful government you must use violence.


A century has passed since Marx first developed his theses on the mechanism of capitalist society. A great deal has happened during those years, but precious little to confirm the validity of his allegations. Most of his theses have failed to stand the test of time

Although some of Marx's thesis have not yet proven to be fact, that does not change the fact many of his ideas have.

Globalization, one of the major issues facing the world today was predicted by Marx a century ago.

His theories still hold almost as much merit as they did when they were written and this author has done nothing to disprove that with facts or even simple logical arguments.

[вор в законе]

-"As prosperity grows, 'class consciousness' disappears. Modern capitalist society is in the process of establishing a common denominator for all men irrespective of their social origin, by standardization of living conditions and of ways of life and by creation of equal opportunities at all.

The Capitalist mode of production can ''expand'' an economy, that is true. A high growth rate though does not necessarily mean a good living standard. In Romania, there is a growth rate of over 4% in the past four years, but there has been ZERO improvement in the living standards of the majority of the population. The same applies to Slovakia, which is far poorer than its Czech neighbors.

Alas economical growth and improvement in the standards of living are not necessarily confounded because the wealth is not equally distributed.

Russia for example has $10,700 (CIA fact book 2005 est.) GDP - per capita but there the 17% of the Russians, as defined the 2$ standard, are living below poverty (note this is the official poverty, the real figures are much higher)





Marx's theory of the 'struggle of the classes' is fast becoming obsolete with the equally rapid disappearance of the 'proletariat.'

The writer is evidently living in his prism since he has never heared of something called ''trade unions''.

This reminds me Frederick Taylor's pish in his theory of ''Scientific'' Management. He claimed that the distribution of the profit is not what should concern the workers and the employers and they should instead be concerned in maximizing the revenues of the company.

This of course is bourgeois nonsense since it is an idealized concept and that is due to the inapplicability of any idealized theory of market economy to real world conditions. The bourgeois, the employer of the company, will never share the revenues with the workers.

Let alone it is only applicable in microeconomics.


-"Marx proved equally wrong in his assumption that the proletariat is eagerly awaiting an opportune moment to establish its dictatorship over the defeated property-owning classes; and that the establishment of socialism must by necessity be effected by violent means.

This is due to the fact that the proletariat is not class conscious. Also because the Capitalists abandoned the laissez-faire model that could tear them apart. But fortunately due to the very nature of capitalism, they are returning back to it. The social welfare nets of Europe are taken back one by one as new capitalist economies in the east are emerging and the competition between them is becoming maximized.

I would like to see this individual stating this when the next depression hits.


" but because these economic doctrines are presented in the context of philosophy which subordinates the problems of human freedom and human dignity to the issues of who should own the means of production and how wealth should be distributed."

This is not worth of anyone's attention really.



"The economic theories of Das Kapital are no longer an active challenge to us."

Wishful thought.



"A century has passed since Marx first developed his theses on the mechanism of capitalist society. A great deal has happened during those years, but precious little to confirm the validity of his allegations. Most of his theses have failed to stand the test of time."

The very process of globalization was described by Karl Marx 150 years ago. I guess, according to him, Marx was wrong and there's no globalization emerging right now.

Just a note though, Capitalism has the ability and flexibility, as history has proven, to adjust based on the existing material conditions and thus secure and further its existence..



- "Even today, while many of the theories developed in Das Kapital tend to be obsolete, and most of the arguments used in support of these theories are no longer relevant, one-fifth of the globe is governed by a system which traces its political ethos to the writings of Karl Marx."

No comment.

This ''Gateway edition of Das Kapital'' is written as a mere anti-marxist pamphlet for the ignorant students who engage in economics. From a scientific view there is nothing serious stated there that can actually challenge us.

The problem is that the prevailing ideas in the Capitalist society are the bourgeois ideas, since they have the power to propagate them. Hence even though we are correct, the people still wont listen to us.

Our ideas will be reckoned only when we are a revolutionary force to be reckoned with.

[CombatLiberalism]

Poverty is Growing in the United States


That link you posted was only from 2001 to 2002. Poverty remaind pretty constant from those two years actually -- not even changing one-half percent according to the link. And, if you break it down between what the Census Bureau calls "races," you would probably find that poverty for those years increased only for certain "races" and quintiles within those groups. In other words, the data does not establish what you think it does. Goto the census bureau web page and look at the charts the data breaks down according to groups to get a more accurate picture.

Standard of living in the u$ has been going up, not down.

[amanondeathrow]

That link you posted was only from 2001 to 2002. Poverty remaind pretty constant from those two years actually -- not even changing one-half percent according to the link.

Fair enough. However just because the percentage point may appear small there were still about 1.4 million more people living in poverty then the previous year.

This clearly illustrates that living conditions are not always improving.


Standard of living in the u$ has been going up, not down.

Not any more.

Minimum Wage Barely Pays Rent (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/20/national/main661924.shtml)

[YKTMX]

Modern capitalist society is in the process of establishing a common denominator for all men irrespective of their social origin, by standardization of living conditions and of ways of life and by creation of equal opportunities at all. Marx's theory of the 'struggle of the classes' is fast becoming obsolete with the equally rapid disappearance of the 'proletariat

Christ. I mean, if you're commissioned to write a hatchet job, you might at least put some thought into it.

Ignoring the "equal opportunities" warmed-up liberalism guff, the stuff about standardization of living conditions seems somewhat bizarre in view of everything we know about poverty levels in the world. Inequality has been increasing since the time Das Kapital was first published.

The "theory" of class struggle isn't a "theory". Class struggle is an actual phenomenon in the social world, Marx's explanation of class struggle is what is "theoretical".

When Marx wrote Das Kapial, capitalism existed in only a few places in the world - England, Belgium, parts of France. The working class was a tiny segment of the population of the world. Now we - and our families, dependents etc - are in the immense majority in most countries in the world. So I can't see under which criteria the proletariat has been "dissapearing" since Marx wrote Das Kapital. I don't know, but I imagine, that the author is alluding, in a very stupid and cumbersome fashion, to the relative decline of manufacturing in the "West".

Firstly, this tendency is often exaggerated. Secondly, if the author had actually read Das Kapital (which I doubt he has) he'll see that Marx explained your class is defined not by your "living standards" or whether your work with your hands or not, it's defined by your relationship to the means of production.


Marx proved equally wrong in his assumption that the proletariat is eagerly awaiting an opportune moment to establish its dictatorship over the defeated property-owning classes; and that the establishment of socialism must by necessity be effected by violent means.

As Red often says: "we'll see".

I'm sure we'll remember where this fucker lives when the "opportune moment" presents itself.

:)


but because these economic doctrines are presented in the context of philosophy which subordinates the problems of human freedom and human dignity to the issues of who should own the means of production and how wealth should be distributed

Of course, of course. The proles shouldn't concern themselves with "insignificant" things things like ownership of the means of production. No no, let "us" worry about that, you just worry about "dignity" and "freedom" - by the way, fancy cleaning my toilet for 4 quid an hour? I've got this introduction to write, and I may need to take a shit in a few hours. Thanks alot, the cloths are under the sink. Now where did I put my pen?

Prick.


The economic theories of Das Kapital are no longer an active challenge to us."



Well, this is probably as close to correct as the author comes. Since most economists, even radicals or "Marxians", try and "revise" Das Kapital, we can hardly expect bourgeois economists to feel "challenged" by them.


A century has passed since Marx first developed his theses on the mechanism of capitalist society. A great deal has happened during those years, but precious little to confirm the validity of his allegations

:lol: The Paris Commune, the First world war, the Russian revolution, the second world war, France '68, globalization, the growth of finance capital, increased inequality.

Or, to put it another way, "precious little".


However, it was this ethical and messianic character of Marx's theory which gave Das Kapital a power of driving people to the barricades. It was a doctrine of deliverance of the proletariat, a myth of a class with which Marx himself had no direct bonds or contacts, a bible of technological messianism

The Proletariat as "myth". Sometimes their nonsense is beyond satire.

Yeah, it's this thing, so they tell me, called a "sun" (or "the" "Sun"). It's this big yellow thing in the sky, apparently it's a "star". It's millions of miles away but it manages to keep us "warm" and "in light". And the "Earth" is "moving around it".

I mean, what are these people like?



Even today, while many of the theories developed in Das Kapital tend to be obsolete, and most of the arguments used in support of these theories are no longer relevant, one-fifth of the globe is governed by a system which traces its political ethos to the writings of Karl Marx."


I bet the members of the Chinese Communst Party Central committee have read Das Kapital as many times as you, you fucking idiot! And understood it just as well.



My advice to you is to rip out the introduction to the book and make a nice fire with it.

A man like Charles shouldn't be defamed by appearing in the same book as this fucking cretin.