Ho Chi Minh

[hassan monwar al-moudjahid]

i dont hear much about ho chi minh, nor the viet cong, and whether they helped to create a better viet nam?

[Janus]

I definitely support Ho Chi Minh for his battles against Japanese and Western imperialism. I think that his whole personality cult mainly grew after his death and wasn't really advocated by himself.

Here's what he had to say about his funeral:

Originally posted by Ho Chi Minh
Not only is cremation good from the point of view of hygiene, but it also saves farmland.

[Cheung Mo]

Ho Chi Minh's biggest mistake was not making the French and American soldiers suffer enough.

[Nachie]

Basically a nationalist who, in the context of the cold war, knew how to play his cards right.

And of course had a pretty compelling case for armed struggle.

[bayano]

one of the most important revolutionary leaders of the 20th century. but not a theorist or a writer very much at all

[LoneRed]

I definitely support him :)

I wanna get a hold of the few things he did write, although ive seen a lot of things he wrote, and it was a good amount

[Andy Bowden]

I would support him against Imperialism, but I have heard that he murdered Vietnamese Trotskyists, and other anti-stalinist Socialists.

[Comrada J]

Ho chi Minh is my hero! :)

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6577/post3211390417002wu.jpg

[Wanted Man]

A great man.

http://www.galizacig.com/actualidade/200307/imaxes/rene_mederos_ho_chi_minh.jpg

[bayano]

okay. folks. i think he was a cutie too, but could u cut it with the personality cult parade? what about some discussions of writings and revolutionary strategy? what about discussions of his positions on stalin and mao and the sino-soviet split? what about his perspectives on the cuban and algerian revolutions, or the struggles in india? damn, ur makin us commies look bad.... stereotypical worship

check out some writings at marxists.org, think about it, then discuss. dont trust most sources on the internet, tho. theres so much exile hatred of him. where i grew up most of the asians were vietnamese, filipino or indian, and the vietnamese kids by and large hate ho (with a few exceptions). i used to get into friendly arguments with them, but most of them didnt have legit reasoning, it was just what their parents told them to think.that doesnt mean that none of their parents had legit reasons- its possible.

but i have a couple books of ho chi minh works, and have looked for other stuff, and mostly its just revolutionary proclamations to the people and solidarity statements, not much theoretical, strategic or other kinds of content.

[The Grey Blur]

First off...what the hell's a "radical islamist"?

I admire the Viet Cong, I'm not too certain as to what amount of influence Ho Chi Minh had on them but the VC's campaign was an immense example of how a smaller guerilla army could at hold at bay a large, professionally equipped army


Ho Chi Minh's biggest mistake was not making the French and American soldiers suffer enough.
Ho Chi Minh's biggest mistake was not making the the French and American generals suffer enough - I don't see any reason to glory in the deaths of conscripted soldiers


I would support him against Imperialism, but I have heard that he murdered Vietnamese Trotskyists, and other anti-stalinist Socialists.
Any sources?


but could u cut it with the personality cult parade?
:huh: Two pictures and moderate praise is now grounds for a personality cult?

[Andy Bowden]

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/4774

http://www.revolutionary-history.co.uk/bac...3/No2/Thau.html (http://www.revolutionary-history.co.uk/backiss/Vol3/No2/Thau.html)

These are sources I've found on the murder of Vietnamese Trotskyists.

[The Grey Blur]

Okay, I accpet this happened. I hadn't even heard about this to be honest.


Fast forward. Imagine. John Rees chairs a meeting for Moqtada Al-Sadr at the Friends Meeting House, with Saddam-admiring Galloway hailing the “heroic” Iraqi resistance. A prominent AWLer gets up and denounces the Mahdi Army and the Islamists for the murder of Iraqi socialists, trade unionists and students. She chastises the SWP for abandoning independent working class politics. Galloway and Al Sadr storm off the stage.
Did this really happen or is it a purely hypothetical situation?

[Andy Bowden]

LOL, no I don't think it happened no. Although the SWP defintely back Moqtada Al Sadr, and I believe they supported having one of Moqtada Al Sadrs reps at a peace conference.

I think the point of the comparison is to show how the SWP have abandoned elements of third campism from their tactics and programme.

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 26 2006, 01:14 AM
Ho Chi Minh's biggest mistake was not making the French and American soldiers suffer enough.
And you're a bloodthirsty idiot. What the hell could soldiers do? They were oppressed themselves (especially the blacks).

On Ho: to me it's one of the communists I do not reject immediately (in contratst to Stalin, Kim-Il Sung, Mao), but I don't know a lot about him. Although I do know that he had very cruel land reforms. I've read something about it for a paper on high school.

So I can't judge very well from this point. There are good things, and there are bad things.

[Poum_1936]

Ho Chi Minh's biggest mistake was not making the French and American soldiers suffer enough.

Idea's like this make me sad.
Sure there were the rascist assholes in the army. But there was also a lot of good honest people as well. Especially those who got conscripted. And hell, there were those who volunteered thinking they were doing a great service to the US but got to Vietnam and realized how fucked the war really was. We still see people like this today with the war on terrorism.

[Janus]

what about some discussions of writings and revolutionary strategy? what about discussions of his positions on stalin and mao and the sino-soviet split?
Ho of course was a fervent supporter of self-determination. He had hoped that the Western powers and particularly the US would support him after WWII and help make Vietnam independent. However the US did not and he became increasingly closer to the USSR.

His ideology could be considered Maoist in some aspects though he did not like the Chinese all that much. He once derided some Vietnamese for putting forth the idea that the Chinese should come into Vietnam and make sure that they got their independence. He said something like:"The last time that the Chinese came in, they stayed for a hundred years, I would rather take shit from the French for ten years than the Chinese for one hundred."

[hassan monwar al-moudjahid]

lol, well i am muslim, and i hear "radical islamist" in the news so much, and my mom jokingly refers the name to me. it is hilarious by the fact that they invented the word right after 9-11. thats the same thing i thought, "what the hell's an islamist". by the way i am not a supporter of bin laden, but at the same time i am not one of those muslims apologists in the west that try to be acceptable to the power structure

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by hassan monwar al-[email protected] 28 2006, 05:42 PM
lol, well i am muslim, and i hear "radical islamist" in the news so much, and my mom jokingly refers the name to me. it is hilarious by the fact that they invented the word right after 9-11. thats the same thing i thought, "what the hell's an islamist". by the way i am not a supporter of bin laden, but at the same time i am not one of those muslims apologists in the west that try to be acceptable to the power structure
How about rejecting Islam on the basis that it is anti-Marxist; as with all religons that believe in a wondrous after-life for all good followers?

[Fistful of Steel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 11:15 PM
he did not like the Chinese all that much. He once derided some Vietnamese for putting forth the idea that the Chinese should come into Vietnam and make sure that they got their independence. He said something like:"The last time that the Chinese came in, they stayed for a hundred years, I would rather take shit from the French for ten years than the Chinese for one hundred."
Didn't he side more with the Soviets after the Sino-Soviet split, and Cambodia sided with the Chinese, and Vietnam invaded Cambodia, and China attacked Vietnam in retaliation.

[Samuel]

ho chi minh is the communist equivilant of yoda

[Brownfist]

Much respect goes out to Ho Chi Minh and the Vietnamese revolution. I think that Ho Chi Minh was a radical influence within the Third World revolutionary movement and was an inspirational figure in Marxist struggles in the Third World. In fact Jose Maria Sison, the ex-chairman of the CPP, cites Ho Chi Minh and the Vietnamese revolution as an important example of Marxist revolution. Sison, indeed cites 3 other Vietnamese revolutionaries also as important figures: Le Duan, Truong Chin and Vo Nguyen Giap. As for Ho's alleigances, I think like all revolutionaries he was influenced from different theoretical strains, but Mao's influence on Ho is clear. I mean Ho even launched offensives from within China, using China as a training ground for revolutionaries, and spent much time in China organizing the Communist Party of Vietnam. As for his siding with the Sino-Soviet split, I am not sure what side he took. Could someone please confirm or deny that he took the Soviet side?

[Dean]

Originally posted by bayan[email protected] 26 2006, 02:19 PM
damn, ur makin us commies look bad.... stereotypical worship
Maybe marx meant that "communism is the spirit of a spiritless world" :-P

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 11:02 PM
What the hell could soldiers do? They were oppressed themselves (especially the blacks).
This is a good point. Communist arguments have been historically rooted in appealing to all oppresed; in this way they regularly tried to find allies in invading or defending armies, by showing them that they too are oppressed by the capitalist apparatus. True, this argument was often flawed or outright wrong as it was used by imperialist nations, but the point remains.

[Janus]

I'm not too certain as to what amount of influence Ho Chi Minh had on them
The Northern government had quite a lot of influence over the NLF as most of the members had been infiltrated into the South before the separation of Vietnam.


Didn't he side more with the Soviets after the Sino-Soviet split, and Cambodia sided with the Chinese, and Vietnam invaded Cambodia, and China attacked Vietnam in retaliation.
Yes. Some of it was due to traditional Vietnamese-Chinese enmity.

[Brownfist]

I was wondering what people think about the Vietnamese invasion of Kampuchea now Cambodia?

[bolshevik butcher]

Well I don't know enough about it to comment but I can't say that I have a lot of time for pol pot.
http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/revhi...2/mostrial.html (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/revhist/backiss/vol3/no2/mostrial.html)

That's my problem with Ho chi minh, as has already been mentioned he ruthlessly crushed trotskyists and any other opposition to him on the left. I do however support his actions agianst the Americans in what was an entirley justtufied national liberation struggle.

[Sons_of_Eureka]

I was wondering what people think about the Vietnamese invasion of Kampuchea now Cambodia?

In my opinion the invasion of democratic Kampuchea was pure Soviet social-imperialism and Vietnamese national chauvanism.

The soviet union simply used vietnam as its hatchet man(as it did with Cuba in Afrika) as a tool to smash anyone who opossed soviet hegenomy.The Khmer Rouge offered a alternative to Soviet revisionism and imperialism and because they were defenceless they were crushed by unjust Vietnames agression.

Also note that before the french,vietnam dominated Kampuchea so the stugle between the Vietnamese and the Khmer is not just a thing of the war.

[Janus]

I was wondering what people think about the Vietnamese invasion of Kampuchea now Cambodia?
Vietnam didn't do it because of the Killing Fields even though that's how they tried to justify it. Basically, it was an example of Vietnamese hegemony and aggression and a result of the raids that Pol Pot had ordered on the border.


The Khmer Rouge offered a alternative to Soviet revisionism and imperialism and because they were defenceless they were crushed by unjust Vietnames agression.
It was an alternative but a pretty terrible one at that. Also, the Khmer Rouge weren't exactly defenceless as they were able to pose a significant problem towards the Vietnamese forces which gave the Vietnamese an excuse to stay longer.

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 12:27 PM

I was wondering what people think about the Vietnamese invasion of Kampuchea now Cambodia?

In my opinion the invasion of democratic Kampuchea was pure Soviet social-imperialism and Vietnamese national chauvanism.

The soviet union simply used vietnam as its hatchet man(as it did with Cuba in Afrika) as a tool to smash anyone who opossed soviet hegenomy.The Khmer Rouge offered a alternative to Soviet revisionism and imperialism and because they were defenceless they were crushed by unjust Vietnames agression.

Also note that before the french,vietnam dominated Kampuchea so the stugle between the Vietnamese and the Khmer is not just a thing of the war.
Excuse me, an alternative? You call sending the population to the countryside, and then killing every smart person and every person that worked too less or had wrong thoughts an alternative? They murdered 1/4 of the population! How could you ever call this an alternative, it's the most horrific regime of the twentieth century!

[Hopes_Guevara]

Today is The 116th Anniversary of Uncle Ho's birthday. Vietnamese people are welcoming this noble event.

To be a Vietnamese, I may be supposed that I am not objective in acknowledging Ho Chi Minh but, as a matter of fact, I think some of you don't understand Ho chi Minh fully and rightly.

For example, it's not absolutely that as Janus said. Indeed, Ho Chi Minh had approached Marxism - Leninism since he was in France in 1920 (you should know Ho Chi Minh, known as Nguyen Ai Quoc, is one of the first founders of French Communist Party). So, you cannot say that just when Vietnam didn't receive the help of the US Ho Chi Minh supported Soviet. (Ho Chi Minh's article (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/ho-chi-minh/works/1960/04/x01.htm)

Also, I think the statement of Ho Chi Minh you gave us was said by Ho Chi Minh in about 1945 or 1946, after the end of WWII. At that time, Tuong Gioi Thach army in the name of the Allies went to Vietnam. In fact, they wanted to occupy VN.

One more thing I want to tell you is that fighting against Pol Pot was not an aggression. Think when Cambodian people were exterminated, what did UN do to help them? You should know that, even Vietnamese people who lived near the border VN-Cam got that disaster.

[The Grey Blur]

What do you think of Trotskyists being massacred by "Uncle" Ho?

[Comrada J]

Got what they deserved.

[The Grey Blur]

Do you always answer questions not addressed to you - or is it only when you have the chance to mock fellow revolutionaries being slaughtered? Just curious

[Comrada J]

Do you always ask this many questions - or is it just to split the left further?

[Ander]

Originally posted by Komrad [email protected] 20 2006, 11:53 AM
Do you always ask this many questions - or is it just to split the left further?
Bahahaha.

Weren't you the one who just advocated the murder of fellow leftists? Did you really think before you said that?

By the way, this thread has inspired me to read more about Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh, the Vietnam War, etc. Thanks guys.

[Comrada J]

Originally posted by jello+--> (jello)Weren't you the one who just advocated the murder of fellow leftists? Did you really think before you said that? [/b]

Yes, I support the slaughter of my "fellow leftist revolutionaries"... Haven’t you got anything better to do then troll? Do you really think before you do that? I guess not.

Obviously, I don’t believe Ho chi Minh was a power-hungry dictator who exterminated everyone who didn’t agree with him. And it's going to take more then a few biased webpages to change that.


PR
Do you always answer questions not addressed to you
Only when there not addressed to any one else either.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 20 2006, 10:29 PM
Do you always answer questions not addressed to you - or is it only when you have the chance to mock fellow revolutionaries being slaughtered? Just curious
Ho Chi Minh and the CPV were the leftist revolutionaries, any opposition to them was opposition to revolution.

[Fistful of Steel]

Originally posted by Komrad [email protected] 20 2006, 10:04 AM
Got what they deserved.
Because they apply to a different brand of communism they deserve to be slaughtered? And you talk about splitting the left further. :lol:

[Ander]

Originally posted by Komrad J+May 20 2006, 02:36 PM--> (Komrad J @ May 20 2006, 02:36 PM)
jello
Weren't you the one who just advocated the murder of fellow leftists? Did you really think before you said that?

Yes, I support the slaughter of my "fellow leftist revolutionaries"... Haven’t you got anything better to do then troll? Do you really think before you do that? I guess not. [/b]
Troll? How am I trolling?

I am just shocked at how someone can be so stupid to say support the murder of leftists and then accuse others of splitting the left further. Very intelligent comment.

[Comrada J]

Because they apply to a different brand of communism they deserve to be slaughtered? And you talk about splitting the left further.
Already answered this. Why are you stirring up trouble?


Troll? How am I trolling?


I am just shocked at how someone can be so stupid to say support the murder of leftists and then accuse others of splitting the left further. Very intelligent comment.

;)

Have fun taking this post out of it's context.

[Ander]

Originally posted by Komrad [email protected] 21 2006, 06:14 AM
;)

Have fun taking this post out of it's context.
Listen, two people happened to make a fool of you, now accept it and move on. Stop trying to defend yourself because no one is falling for it.

[Little brother]

I'm really new to Ho Chi Minh. The Australian schooling whatever teaches us to hate him. well hate is a strong word. But they make him out to be the bad guy. Can you beleive i went through all of year 10 actually thinking that?! I blame my ignorance but i would also like to blame the public education system. BUT then in my studies for year 11 exams i had to go back and pay more attention to Ho Chi Minh. Oh gosh did i feel stupid. What a legendary figure. I actually got angry at my old year 10 teacher for preaching against him. What he did. Everything, i'm sorry i really can't say heaps about him since i'm only just finding so much out but i thought i'd just comment on my new found admiration for one of the 20th century's greatest men.

[Comrada J]

Originally posted by Jello+May 22 2006, 10:57 AM--> (Jello @ May 22 2006, 10:57 AM)
Originally posted by Komrad [email protected] 21 2006, 06:14 AM
;)

Have fun taking this post out of it's context.
Listen, two people happened to make a fool of you, now accept it and move on. Stop trying to defend yourself because no one is falling for it.[/b]
What's your problem? Why do you keep trolling/flaming? Are you really that lonely that you have nothing else to do but troll over an internet forum? Here's some advice for you: GET A LIFE!


Jello
Stalin was a great man who did not kill anybody. The Great Purges, Gulags, etc are all filthy lies.

Hail Stalin!
And you accuse me of advocating the murder of leftists...


I'm really new to Ho Chi Minh. The Australian schooling whatever teaches us to hate him.But they make him out to be the bad guy. Can you beleive i went through all of year 10 actually thinking that?!

I had a leftist teacher at the time (Year 10), so I wasn't brainwashed into thinking that.

[Brownfist]

What is really interesting is that Ho Chi Minh was one of the founders of the Communist Party of Malaysia. In fact, Ho Chi Minh's man in Malaysia, Lai Tek, was the leader of the party till they later found out that he was a double-agent. However, I am not clear what was Ho Chi Minh's relationship to Chin Peng and the CPM in the 1960's and 70's.

[hassan monwar al-moudjahid]

How about rejecting Islam on the basis that it is anti-Marxist; as with all religons that believe in a wondrous after-life for all good followers?

-well i dont use karl marx as the criteria or yardstick to measure everything. sure he had good ideas, but at the same time i wont follow him like he is God as other socialists do. but this debate doesnt belong here. this belongs in the religion section. now lets talk about ho chi minh

[bolshevik butcher]

I agree with you completeley.I would say that my theoretical basis was Marx, Engels, Lenin, Tortsky and to a limited extent thoughts of other socialists including Maloclm X and Rosa Luxemburg, but way too often I just see someone quote Stalin or Mao or Marx or Trotsky to answer a point rather than saying something themselves.Theories need to be applied practically to situations and situations need to be looked at before you can draw an analysis from them.

And I think the constant atatcks on your religon rather than your political views are pathetic as well.

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by Fistful of Steel+May 20 2006, 06:07 PM--> (Fistful of Steel @ May 20 2006, 06:07 PM)
Komrad [email protected] 20 2006, 10:04 AM
Got what they deserved.
Because they apply to a different brand of communism they deserve to be slaughtered? And you talk about splitting the left further. :lol: [/b]
I have no problem seeing STalinists slaughtered: It's not so much that they're a different strand of leftism than that they're totalitarian and reactionary fucks.

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by Cheung Mo+May 23 2006, 05:40 PM--> (Cheung Mo @ May 23 2006, 05:40 PM)
Originally posted by Fistful of [email protected] 20 2006, 06:07 PM

Komrad [email protected] 20 2006, 10:04 AM
Got what they deserved.
Because they apply to a different brand of communism they deserve to be slaughtered? And you talk about splitting the left further. :lol:
I have no problem seeing STalinists slaughtered: It's not so much that they're a different strand of leftism than that they're totalitarian and reactionary fucks. [/b]
That's something different. Stalinists aren't a brand of communists.

[The Grey Blur]

well i dont use karl marx as the criteria or yardstick to measure everything.
Neither do I


sure he had good ideas, but at the same time i wont follow him like he is God as other socialists do
:huh: Where have you grabbed this point from?


but this debate doesnt belong here. this belongs in the religion section. now lets talk about ho chi minh
I already talked about Ho Chi, let's go off-topic for a while, we only live once


I agree with you completeley.I would say that my theoretical basis was Marx, Engels, Lenin, Tortsky and to a limited extent thoughts of other socialists including Maloclm X and Rosa Luxemburg, but way too often I just see someone quote Stalin or Mao or Marx or Trotsky to answer a point rather than saying something themselves.Theories need to be applied practically to situations and situations need to be looked at before you can draw an analysis from them.

And I think the constant atatcks on your religon rather than your political views are pathetic as well.
WTF are you getting this from?

And I didn't attack his religion, I questioned it

I said

How about rejecting Islam on the basis that it is anti-Marxist; as with all religons that believe in a wondrous after-life for all good followers?

Perhaps what I should have said was that Religion is anti-materialist and anti-class warfare - things Malcolm X himself based his theories on - the churches will try to keep the workers indoctrinated with their promises of a 'better life' after this one, as opposed to a better one now

[bolshevik butcher]

Well considering our comarade is clearly basing his analysis on class warfare and materialism why bother to question it. Anyway it wasn't just aginast you it was agianst other times I have seen his religon attacked rather than responding to perfectly valid points that have been made. I wasn't reffering to anything patcularly when I made that point about marx, lenin etc it was a point about general practise I often come accross.

[The Grey Blur]

Well considering our comarade is clearly basing his analysis on class warfare and materialism why bother to question it
I'm actually one of the more open-minded members of this forum when it comes to religion - I'm honestly just curious as to why a Marxist would consider themselves a Muslim as well


I wasn't reffering to anything patcularly when I made that point about marx, lenin etc it was a point about general practise I often come accross
Yeah, true it gets really frustrating at times

Still, no reason to take it out on me ;)

[bolshevik butcher]

Sorry i wasnt mate, was just making a general point. Thought I made that clear... And on religon I wasn't really having a go at you either, more the genearl ridiculous attitude to religous comrades present in this forum.

[Ander]

Originally posted by Komrad J+May 22 2006, 05:52 AM--> (Komrad J @ May 22 2006, 05:52 AM)
Originally posted by Jello+May 22 2006, 10:57 AM--> (Jello @ May 22 2006, 10:57 AM)
Komrad [email protected] 21 2006, 06:14 AM
;)

Have fun taking this post out of it's context.
Listen, two people happened to make a fool of you, now accept it and move on. Stop trying to defend yourself because no one is falling for it.[/b]
What's your problem? Why do you keep trolling/flaming? Are you really that lonely that you have nothing else to do but troll over an internet forum? Here's some advice for you: GET A LIFE!


Jello
Stalin was a great man who did not kill anybody. The Great Purges, Gulags, etc are all filthy lies.

Hail Stalin!
And you accuse me of advocating the murder of leftists...


I'm really new to Ho Chi Minh. The Australian schooling whatever teaches us to hate him.But they make him out to be the bad guy. Can you beleive i went through all of year 10 actually thinking that?!

I had a leftist teacher at the time (Year 10), so I wasn't brainwashed into thinking that. [/b]
:huh: You are way too sensitive, buddy. We are having an argument, something typical on the internet as well as real life. Just because someone caught you making an ass of yourself you get all defensive? Here's some advice for you: GET OUT OF POLITICS!

And that bit about Stalinism was dripping with sarcasm...

Stop taking my posts out of context...the actual quote is:

"Ok, ok, fine. You guys are right, Stalin was a great man who did not kill anybody. The Great Purges, Gulags, etc are all filthy lies.

Hail Stalin!"

Full of sarcasm.

[Brekisonphilous]

Just recently I learned about vietnam and ho chi minh. I went into the chapter(in history class)neutral, and came out supporting Vietnam and Ho chi. At least in the vietnam war, I don't really know much about him outside of the war besides the fact that he broke up a lot of estates and redistributed the land to peasants, which I definitely admire.

I payed close attention to how the text book displayed him, and it had this whole section that started off with "Though Ho Chi Minh's regime was much more oppressive..." yet it did not even mention as to how?
Then it went on to explain things Diem did, like destroyed Buddhist temples and how he knew Vietnam would go to Minh if an election took place, so the U.S. cancelled the election to unite vietnam again. Though they spoke nothing negative of South Vietnam policies, besides that the U.S. disagreed with them at times....

[Hopes_Guevara]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 19 2006, 10:48 PM
What do you think of Trotskyists being massacred by "Uncle" Ho?
Oh, you cannot say that Ho Chi Minh "massared" The Trotskyists for two reasons:

First, the number of people killed at that time is not so much as you imagined.

Seccond, Trotskyism was absolutely a huge danger for the cause of the national liberation. And can you "forgive" those counterrevolutionaries?

[RedKnight]

Originally posted by Hopes_Guevara+May 25 2006, 03:00 AM--> (Hopes_Guevara @ May 25 2006, 03:00 AM)
Permanent [email protected] 19 2006, 10:48 PM
What do you think of Trotskyists being massacred by "Uncle" Ho?
Oh, you cannot say that Ho Chi Minh "massared" The Trotskyists for two reasons:

First, the number of people killed at that time is not so much as you imagined.

Seccond, Trotskyism was absolutely a huge danger for the cause of the national liberation. And can you "forgive" those counterrevolutionaries? [/b]
It shouldn't matter how many were killed, it was still political repression. and yes they should be tolerated. The workers of the world have no country. no war but the class war! Workers of all nations unite!

[Brekisonphilous]

I condemn Minh for repressing polital freedom. His warfare in Vietnam was pretty impressive. and I definitely sympathize for vietnam because the U.S. tore the shit out of it. and the people definitely seemed to favor him quite a bit.

[bolshevik butcher]

Yes, I don't think that anyone here would say that Vietnam's national liberation struggle was not one of heroism that had the full support of the class conscious Vietnamese workers and peasants.

[Pawn Power]

During the vietnam war protersters in the US sometimes shouted,
HO! HO! HO CHI MIHN!

Mad Skinny

[Andy Bowden]

Seccond, Trotskyism was absolutely a huge danger for the cause of the national liberation. And can you "forgive" those counterrevolutionaries?

How was Trotskyism a danger to National Liberation? Virtually every Trotskyist organisation in the world opposed the US intervention.

And in what way were these people "counterevolutionaries"? Trotskyists were active within Vietnams labour movement and struggles.

Vietnam today is open to the doors of Nike, Coca Cola and other MNC&#39;s. So much for the "Communist" party <_<

[rebelworker]

I love how trotskyists constsntly defend the supression of left wing marxists and anarchists(or autonomus workers moveemnts) but complain when other dictators put their theory into prctice - on them -.

Trotsky was responsible for the murder of thousands of revolutionaries, stop whining, either dump the theory or stand by it, just dont be suprised when you see what it actually means in practice.

[Janus]

How was Trotskyism a danger to National Liberation? Virtually every Trotskyist organisation in the world opposed the US intervention.
In China, the Trotskyists supported Japanese imperialism as they thought that it would industrialize the nation. I&#39;m guessing that the Vietnamese Trotskyists were similar in thought.

[rebelworker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 09:34 PM

How was Trotskyism a danger to National Liberation? Virtually every Trotskyist organisation in the world opposed the US intervention.
In China, the Trotskyists supported Japanese imperialism as they thought that it would industrialize the nation. I&#39;m guessing that the Vietnamese Trotskyists were similar in thought.
Another prinicpled stand for "scientific Marxism".

Just goes to show that people will come up with anything to defend their actions...

[Andy Bowden]

Hmmm, I never heard that. I thought the position of most Trotskyist groups was defence of Maos state against imperialism, as it was in their view a "deformed workers state".

Do you have any sources on Trotskyists aiding Japanese Imperialism?

[bolshevik butcher]

Think it&#39;s worth noting that it was the Veitnamese trotskyists that argued for an independent working class party and a revolution. Ho chi minh ws following the line from Moscow and Beijin; ally with the progressive bourgeoirse. A bissare line, as for a start the interestes of the Vietnamese workers and peasants. Also the bourgeoirse in the imperialist era has never been able to complete the tasks of a bourgeoirse revolution.

[hassan monwar al-moudjahid]

well actually im not a marxist, but that doesnt mean i cant admire his work. i dont think you could call ho chi minh a stone-cold marxist. he was an ally to america at one time&#33; (or maybe he wanted to be an ally to the usa, fdr did say good things about him but that doesnt mean much)

[Nicky Scarfo]

Originally posted by hassan monwar al&#045;[email protected] 2 2006, 11:15 PM
well actually im not a marxist, but that doesnt mean i cant admire his work. i dont think you could call ho chi minh a stone-cold marxist. he was an ally to america at one time&#33; (or maybe he wanted to be an ally to the usa, fdr did say good things about him but that doesnt mean much)
He was a Marxist alright, but a nationalist first and foremost (yeah, yeah, I know someone here is gonna say theoretically you can&#39;t be both, but, in point of fact, many have been).

Here&#39;s all you gotta know &#39;bout Uncle Ho--


We don’t need your Santa Claus
Cause we’ve got Uncle Ho
No three wise bourgeois gentlemen
Or sleigh bells in the snow
Santa may wear red, but don’t believe what you see
Cause Uncle Ho distributes presents equally

Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh
He comes down from the North
Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh
all the presents he brings forth
Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh
He’s a jolly man they say
Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh
Smash the state on Christmas day

That fat man he don’t understand
How his elves work
His laissez faire philosophies
Leave his workers short
Uncle Ho tunnels, when he brings your toys
And he lives with his workers in Hanoi oi&#33; oi&#33;

And for an extra treat I&#39;ll throw in this one--


I ruined all your christmas joy
stomped all over your children’s toys
saw your house with the lights ablaze
to crash your holiday’s the only way
I knocked that stupid virgin down
broke Joseph’s robes upon the ground
I saw his eyes from across the lawn
and oh-ho-ho, my heart was gone

Merry Christmas, I fucked your snowman&#33; Merry Christmas I slept with him&#33;

Your guests, they all were horrified
said the season I’d defiled
they can all just go straight to hell
I told them with one great big yell

Merry Christmas, I fucked your snowman&#33; Merry Christmas I slept with him&#33;

I burned down your tinseled evergreen
hit your old aunt across the knees
I’ve smashed up all your christmas plates
for you and yours I’ve got only hate
I kissed him on his frosty mug
and he gave me a great big hug
now my heart is full of christmas cheer
almost enough to last all the year

Merry Christmas, I fucked your snowman&#33; Merry Christmas I slept with him&#33;

[Comrada J]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 03:45 AM
*snip*

If it wasn&#39;t already obvious, I was giving you a dose of your own medicine. Just like how you told me to "get out of politics" (this is the history section btw) in reply to my "get a life". Now stop posting, if any one here is making an ass of them self, it would be you.

[Sons_of_Eureka]

Andy Bowden wrote

Hmmm, I never heard that. I thought the position of most Trotskyist groups was defence of Maos state against imperialism, as it was in their view a "deformed workers state".

First off Mao&#39;s state was 1949-1976 while the japanese invasion was from about 1931-1945

The Trotskyite position was to oppose the CCP during the Agrarian revolution of the late 1920&#39;s and the invasion by japan in the early 1930&#39;s.The Trotskyites provided the Kuomintang(Chang Kai Shek) with inteligence,spread misinformation and tried to sabotage the revolution and they also helped the Japanese imperialist.
So you can imagine why Mao viewed them as counter-revolutionarys.

If they took a similar line during the Vietnam war,the exercutions would be perfectly reasonable and justified in such times of desperation.

Andy Bowden wrote

Do you have any sources on Trotskyists aiding Japanese Imperialism?

The best source i&#39;ve read on it would probly be Mao&#39;s selected works volume 1 as its a realy good acount of much of the hapenings between about 1926 and 1937.

[Ander]

Originally posted by Komrad J+Jun 4 2006, 07:59 AM--> (Komrad J @ Jun 4 2006, 07:59 AM)
[email protected] 25 2006, 03:45 AM
*snip*

If it wasn&#39;t already obvious, I was giving you a dose of your own medicine. Just like how you told me to "get out of politics" (this is the history section btw) in reply to my "get a life". Now stop posting, if any one here is making an ass of them self, it would be you. [/b]
How was whining like a little ***** equal giving me a taste of my own medicine? You just keep digging the hole deeper.

[Janus]

Another prinicpled stand for "scientific Marxism".

Just goes to show that people will come up with anything to defend their actions...
Are you talking about the Trotskyists or me?


Do you have any sources on Trotskyists aiding Japanese Imperialism?
They didn&#39;t actually aid Japanese imperialism, they simply did not counter it. As for the sources, I would have to translate them.

[Jesus Christ!]

Originally posted by Jello+Jun 4 2006, 04:04 PM--> (Jello @ Jun 4 2006, 04:04 PM)
Originally posted by Komrad [email protected] 4 2006, 07:59 AM

[email protected] 25 2006, 03:45 AM
*snip*

If it wasn&#39;t already obvious, I was giving you a dose of your own medicine. Just like how you told me to "get out of politics" (this is the history section btw) in reply to my "get a life". Now stop posting, if any one here is making an ass of them self, it would be you.
How was whining like a little ***** equal giving me a taste of my own medicine? You just keep digging the hole deeper. [/b]
Last I checked sexist terms weren&#39;t an accepted thing here.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 05:41 PM
They didn&#39;t actually aid Japanese imperialism, they simply did not counter it. As for the sources, I would have to translate them.
All of the Left-wing have made stupid mistakes, the Anarchists allying with the Whites, Stalinists...being Stalinists, etc

(This isn&#39;t directed at you Janus, just your quote was the most convenient)

P.S Is this thing even true? Sources&#33; :P

[rebelworker]

Imcurous as to which anarchists sided with which whites?

and no Janus I wasnt talking about you, I was talking about the absurd position some people take in the name of "scientific marxism" soemtimes.

[Hopes_Guevara]

Originally posted by Nicky Scarfo+Jun 4 2006, 05:30 AM--> (Nicky Scarfo @ Jun 4 2006, 05:30 AM)
hassan monwar al&#045;[email protected] 2 2006, 11:15 PM
well actually im not a marxist, but that doesnt mean i cant admire his work. i dont think you could call ho chi minh a stone-cold marxist. he was an ally to america at one time&#33; (or maybe he wanted to be an ally to the usa, fdr did say good things about him but that doesnt mean much)
He was a Marxist alright, but a nationalist first and foremost (yeah, yeah, I know someone here is gonna say theoretically you can&#39;t be both, but, in point of fact, many have been).

Here&#39;s all you gotta know &#39;bout Uncle Ho--


We don’t need your Santa Claus
Cause we’ve got Uncle Ho
No three wise bourgeois gentlemen
Or sleigh bells in the snow
Santa may wear red, but don’t believe what you see
Cause Uncle Ho distributes presents equally

Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh
He comes down from the North
Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh
all the presents he brings forth
Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh
He’s a jolly man they say
Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh
Smash the state on Christmas day

That fat man he don’t understand
How his elves work
His laissez faire philosophies
Leave his workers short
Uncle Ho tunnels, when he brings your toys
And he lives with his workers in Hanoi oi&#33; oi&#33;

[/b]
It is interesting for me&#33; Is it a poem or a song? By whom? It seems to be a song I have ever heard, I am not sure...

[Marx_was_right&#33;]

Comrade Ho was a hero. Unlike other rulers purporting to support Socialism, he genuinely loved his people and never mistreated them. His defiance against the American Empire is legendary. It is too bad he did not live to see the victory in 1975. Ho lives always&#33;

[borneo_revolution]

I wished there was someone as gallant & as brave as Ho Chi Minh who could free my beloved state of Sarawak from the evil government of Malaysia. Ho Chi Minh is an example of how a simple man could defeat capitalism when they tried to take over his country.

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 2 2006, 06:08 PM
Think it&#39;s worth noting that it was the Veitnamese trotskyists that argued for an independent working class party and a revolution. Ho chi minh ws following the line from Moscow and Beijin; ally with the progressive bourgeoirse. A bissare line, as for a start the interestes of the Vietnamese workers and peasants. Also the bourgeoirse in the imperialist era has never been able to complete the tasks of a bourgeoirse revolution.
This wasn&#39;t exactly what Ho Chi Minh did. As in all national liberation struggles, there will be a section of the bourgeoisie who find that their economic and political interests may be best served in an &#39;independent&#39; country as opposed to a colony. Thus the Vietnamese were able to get the support of landlords and the like, and undoubtedly their wealth came in handy when they were trying to get guns and other supplies, but the Communist Party were firmly in control of the national liberation movement.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 08:11 PM
I wished there was someone as gallant & as brave as Ho Chi Minh who could free my beloved state of Sarawak from the evil government of Malaysia.
You&#39;re from Sarawak. Solidarity. Just a piece of advice - if there is no Ho Chi Minh for you, why not become like him?

Ho Chi Minh in my opinion is one of the much better commie leaders, he&#39;s up there with Fidel and Che.

[Tekun]

Originally posted by Andy [email protected] 26 2006, 06:28 PM
http://www.workersliberty.org/node/4774

http://www.revolutionary-history.co.uk/bac...3/No2/Thau.html (http://www.revolutionary-history.co.uk/backiss/Vol3/No2/Thau.html)

These are sources I&#39;ve found on the murder of Vietnamese Trotskyists.
This definitely gives me a new insight on Ho and Vietnam
I will definitely need to read more b4 I can make a full judgement on the man and his times
But the one aspect I do admire was his fervent opposition and rebellion against the French, British, and Americans

BTW: Thanks for the sources

[Vuong]

u fucking nerd kids&#33; you dont know anything about the vietnam war, not anything about Ho chi minh&#33; not anything about communism&#33; how can you say that communism is good? why is the communism good??? fucking emo kids, go take suicide or something instead&#33; Ho Chi minh was a nationalist, i liked that he made vietnam free but the system of his didnt and DONT work&#33; the french and usa tried to make vietnam better. if south would have won, then vietnam wouldnt be filled with poor people in the streets&#33;
i know people that died in the vietnam war, i am viet. how can you call Ho Chi Minh your hero? if you were there, right infront of his face, he would have shot u... dont play fricking smart u fucking brats&#33; people like you make me so pissed off&#33; i feel that i cant say enough to you...
to live in a country with communism is like death... fucking kids&#33; GO TO SCHOOL&#33; LEARN SOMETHING&#33; LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT COMMUNISM AND HOW IT AFFECTS ALL THE PEOPLE EXEPT YOU&#33; fucking morons get off this forums&#33;
if you dont im going to fucking kill you all&#33; burn you all in hell&#33; burn all books about communism&#33;&#33;&#33; and no1 will ever know what it is&#33;
btw... if u dont listen to me, then you can go rape yourself in the ass&#33;

ps. fuck karl marx, im catholic&#33;

[RedSabine]

How enlightened comrade&#33; I especially liked the part about raping ourselves in the ass. That was really nice.

[Lenin's Law]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 07:46 PM
u fucking nerd kids&#33; you dont know anything about the vietnam war, not anything about Ho chi minh&#33; not anything about communism&#33;


I love how he calls us "nerds" at first but then says we "don&#39;t know anything..."
So in your mind, nerds are people who "don&#39;t know anything?" So who are the people who do know everything? The idiots and Philistines?


ps. fuck karl marx, im catholic&#33;

OK, we&#39;ll keep the little kiddies away from you then. :lol: BTW, I think you should go back to church and start praying real hard, I&#39;m sure Jesus wouldn&#39;t have liked all the mean things you just said..who knows? Maybe he&#39;ll even send you to HELL&#33;&#33;&#33; :o :o

[Leo]

u fucking nerd kids&#33; you dont know anything about the vietnam war, not anything about Ho chi minh&#33; not anything about communism&#33; how can you say that communism is good? why is the communism good??? fucking emo kids, go take suicide or something instead&#33; Ho Chi minh was a nationalist, i liked that he made vietnam free but the system of his didnt and DONT work&#33; the french and usa tried to make vietnam better. if south would have won, then vietnam wouldnt be filled with poor people in the streets&#33;
i know people that died in the vietnam war, i am viet. how can you call Ho Chi Minh your hero? if you were there, right infront of his face, he would have shot u... dont play fricking smart u fucking brats&#33; people like you make me so pissed off&#33; i feel that i cant say enough to you...
to live in a country with communism is like death... fucking kids&#33; GO TO SCHOOL&#33; LEARN SOMETHING&#33; LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT COMMUNISM AND HOW IT AFFECTS ALL THE PEOPLE EXEPT YOU&#33; fucking morons get off this forums&#33;
if you dont im going to fucking kill you all&#33; burn you all in hell&#33; burn all books about communism&#33;&#33;&#33; and no1 will ever know what it is&#33;
btw... if u dont listen to me, then you can go rape yourself in the ass&#33;

ps. fuck karl marx, im catholic&#33;

After the revolution, we will hang reactionary anti-communists like you from the telephone poles with the guts of the capitalists, and we will piss on their dead faces. I hope I made myself clear enough. :)

[Wanted Man]

Lol Vuong. More like, your daddy was a rich servant of Diem, then when liberation came, he had to flee to the US or something? I highly doubt that you still live there. Unlike some people that I know, who have a very different opinion of Vietnam.

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 08:46 PM
u fucking nerd kids&#33; you dont know anything about the vietnam war, not anything about Ho chi minh&#33; not anything about communism&#33; how can you say that communism is good? why is the communism good??? fucking emo kids, go take suicide or something instead&#33; Ho Chi minh was a nationalist, i liked that he made vietnam free but the system of his didnt and DONT work&#33; the french and usa tried to make vietnam better. if south would have won, then vietnam wouldnt be filled with poor people in the streets&#33;
i know people that died in the vietnam war, i am viet. how can you call Ho Chi Minh your hero? if you were there, right infront of his face, he would have shot u... dont play fricking smart u fucking brats&#33; people like you make me so pissed off&#33; i feel that i cant say enough to you...
to live in a country with communism is like death... fucking kids&#33; GO TO SCHOOL&#33; LEARN SOMETHING&#33; LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT COMMUNISM AND HOW IT AFFECTS ALL THE PEOPLE EXEPT YOU&#33; fucking morons get off this forums&#33;
if you dont im going to fucking kill you all&#33; burn you all in hell&#33; burn all books about communism&#33;&#33;&#33; and no1 will ever know what it is&#33;
btw... if u dont listen to me, then you can go rape yourself in the ass&#33;

ps. fuck karl marx, im catholic&#33;
I don&#39;t think you&#39;re Vietnamese at all, unless you moved to the West as a very young kid or your parents came to the West. You sound like a typical ignorant teenager who hasn&#39;t got a single clue about what communism is.

[The Feral Underclass]

As ridiculous and ignorant Vuong&#39;s opinions are, this is indicative of western indocrtination and attacking him is hardly the right approach. Is this how people speak to all those who have been spoon fed lies by their churches, schools and parents?

I doubt very much that Vuong is an organised anti-communist and has simply expressed the same opinion many westernised people express.

No one in this thread has actually demonstrated to Vuong how the government in Vietnam is and never has been communist.

[grove street]

Originally posted by Permanent [email protected] 23, 2006 08:16 pm
[QUOTE]
Perhaps what I should have said was that Religion is anti-materialist and anti-class warfare - things Malcolm X himself based his theories on - the churches will try to keep the workers indoctrinated with their promises of a &#39;better life&#39; after this one, as opposed to a better one now

You shouldn&#39;t lump sum Muhammed into one fixed sterotype like other spirtual figures like Jesus and Budah. Unlike Jesus and Budah, Muhammed was very revolutionary, instead of just telling the oppressed Arabs to perserve with life and not try to change the oppressive politcal system in Arabia, because sugar cane mountain awaited them in the next world. Muhammed overthrew the oppresive pagan rule of Arabia through a military that mostly consisted of the poor and outcasts of Arab society.

Muahammed was very much an Arab robin hood figure who was notorius for raiding wealthy merchant caravans and giving the possesions away to the poor

[cefmuo]

(Off topic: Wooh.. Felt scary with that "Replying to Ho Chi Minh" in the titlebar)
Anyway, it is funny how people make it sound like Ho Chi Minh was a soldier in the war, and that he was fighting there alone against the whole country.

[kyeunuoc]

1st sorry about my english
As a Vietnamese i prefer call him Uncle Ho. He is not only a hero but also the father of the nation. He made me proud to be a vietnamese.
About you vuong don&#39;t call yourself a vietnamese. You are not worthy to be 1.

&#39;The french and usa tried to make vietnam better&#39; wtf is that. You actual think that. So you mean the vietnamese just accept the fact that be colonised by French or become 1 of the states of american. If you have read any books about vietnam history at that time you should know how the frmer worked 20 hours a day for their landlord and still starve to dead, the french treated vietnamese like a slave, while American soldier massacre, rape, torture the civilians. Vietnamese won because the people supported us, and people still support vietnam goverment now that why we still stand strong. &#39;
if south would have won, then vietnam wouldnt be filled with poor people in the streets&#33;&#39;
1st have you ever visited vietnam? true that in vietnam we have poor people in the streets but tell me which countries don&#39;t.
2nd In Vietnam even the poorest is not starve to dead. So don&#39;t compare Vietnam now with Vietnam under Diem or Thieu goverment.
3rd how much you earn per year but i&#39;m pretty sure that i earned twice of your.

So i don&#39;t think we are poor like you think we are.

[Marx Lenin Stalin]

Ho Chi Minh was a great Marxist Leninist and a tribute to his people. Pity what came after him...

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by Marx Lenin [email protected] 09, 2006 10:18 pm
Ho Chi Minh was a great Marxist Leninist and a tribute to his people. Pity what came after him...
Exactly. He is what standing up to American Imperialism looks like.

[TupacAndChe4Eva]

Originally posted by Leo [email protected] 18, 2006 09:04 pm

u fucking nerd kids&#33; you dont know anything about the vietnam war, not anything about Ho chi minh&#33; not anything about communism&#33; how can you say that communism is good? why is the communism good??? fucking emo kids, go take suicide or something instead&#33; Ho Chi minh was a nationalist, i liked that he made vietnam free but the system of his didnt and DONT work&#33; the french and usa tried to make vietnam better. if south would have won, then vietnam wouldnt be filled with poor people in the streets&#33;
i know people that died in the vietnam war, i am viet. how can you call Ho Chi Minh your hero? if you were there, right infront of his face, he would have shot u... dont play fricking smart u fucking brats&#33; people like you make me so pissed off&#33; i feel that i cant say enough to you...
to live in a country with communism is like death... fucking kids&#33; GO TO SCHOOL&#33; LEARN SOMETHING&#33; LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT COMMUNISM AND HOW IT AFFECTS ALL THE PEOPLE EXEPT YOU&#33; fucking morons get off this forums&#33;
if you dont im going to fucking kill you all&#33; burn you all in hell&#33; burn all books about communism&#33;&#33;&#33; and no1 will ever know what it is&#33;
btw... if u dont listen to me, then you can go rape yourself in the ass&#33;

ps. fuck karl marx, im catholic&#33;

After the revolution, we will hang reactionary anti-communists like you from the telephone poles with the guts of the capitalists, and we will piss on their dead faces. I hope I made myself clear enough. :)
Thats the spirit