Rolex

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Where did Che get his Rolex?

[Janus]

NWOG, you ask some pretty random questions.

If I remember correctly, I think one of his co-workers gave it to him after the Cuban Revolution with a gold brace. However, Che donated that gold brace to the national bank and replaced it with a plain leather one.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Well, some cappies have claimed that the Rolex is a "proof" of him being born into a rich family. And a rolex often cost many thousands of dollars. That is why I ask.

Also, another "random" question:
"In 1960 Guevara provided first aid to victims during the La Coubre arms shipment rescue operation" - Wikipedia claims

Never heard of this before.. Do you know if it is true?

[Communism]

I cannot say for sure but that is most likely a yes as Che was a highly regarded figure in Cuba at this time and this event was seen as a strike on communism by capitalism, it would be in Che's interest to help to improve his image as a communist.

[Tete Calvache]

Fidel gave Che a Rolex watch when he was promoted Commandante in July '57. Che wore the watch but at some later point reportedly gave it to his father. This was done at the airport when he was seeing his father off and after they had had some 'differences'. As a gesture his father took off the watch he was wearing (which had belonged to Che's paternal grandmother) and gave it to him and in exchange Che gave him the watch he was wearing. Later photos show Che wearing this watch but others also show him wearing a Rolex or watch of similar appearance...

I thought Che's family background was well documented. Yes, he was high-born but his parents were not tremendously wealthy and in anycase no-one can help what family circumstances they are born into, what counts is what you do as an individual in life. In the very fact that he had a relatively priviliged upbringing makes it all the more admirably that he was prepared to give up the opportunities and advantages this gave him to risk everything fighting for the cause he believed in.

Tete.

[armedpoet]

"Where did Che get his Rolex?"

He stole it from the first "counter revolutionary" that he gutted. ;)

Don't get me wrong I respect Che to some extent (everyone has their faults) but he got pretty damn crazy towards the end.

[Big Boss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 12:11 PM
Don't get me wrong I respect Che to some extent (everyone has their faults) but he got pretty damn crazy towards the end.
Define "crazy". If serving justice and punishing those who deserve it is called "crazy" then I'm pretty nuts if you ask me!! If sacrificing your life for the marginalized of the world called "crazy" then yes, he was insane!!

http://www.clarin.com/suplementos/zona/2005/10/30/thumb/t028dh02.jpg

[Karl Marx's Camel]

If serving justice and punishing those who deserve it is called "crazy" then I'm pretty nuts if you ask me!!

Then YOU are pretty nuts?

Another random question.. Was Che a DGI agent?


Shortly after the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1963, Moscow invited 1,500 DGI agents, including Che Guevara, to the KGB's Moscow Center for an intensive training in intelligence operations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Intel...nce_Directorate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Intelligence_Directorate)

[Wiesty]

On che being born into a well-off family, in a sence he was, they vacationed regularily, had numerous houses, and belonged to tennis clubs etc. They had various forms of income, like his fathers Mate plantation, but in the 30's, various things that happened to them, left the family broke, and they were left to live off of Celia's inheritance. While they may of been poor at times, they always still liked to live as well of as they could.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Interesting. His dad had a Mate plantation?

[Wiesty]

Ya. His day (Ernesto Guevara Lynch) using Celias fortune, bought quiet a large sum of land/jungel in the Misones, and ran a mate plantation. While most plantation owners in the reigon during that time, were not thought of, as nice people, he had a reputation to be a generous man. The farm lasted quite a while, but fell years later as more and more farmers ended up having to leave the plantations looking for city jobs due to the fact that the Yorba Mate market was not busseling.

[armedpoet]

punishing those who deserve it

:huh:

Who are you to say who deserves punishment?

I am not advocating pacifism, violence can be a useful tool.

But there is no excusing Che's "revolutionary" firing squads.

Why fight Capitalism when you only end up perpetuating it?

[Wiesty]

the people they killed were anti-communists and followers of batista. They knew control would be impossible if they had a large number of batista follower, which in the end would of led to a lot more intervention by the US. They had to exterminate these batistians to gain complete power, because along with the overthrow of the batista regime, went its supporters, thus totally elliminating it.

[DORRI]

Originally posted by Tete [email protected] 27 2006, 05:34 PM
Fidel gave Che a Rolex watch when he was promoted Commandante in July '57. Che wore the watch but at some later point reportedly gave it to his father. This was done at the airport when he was seeing his father off and after they had had some 'differences'. As a gesture his father took off the watch he was wearing (which had belonged to Che's paternal grandmother) and gave it to him and in exchange Che gave him the watch he was wearing. Later photos show Che wearing this watch but others also show him wearing a Rolex or watch of similar appearance...


the bolivian diary says thar the rolex was with him in those last days if i am not far mistaken.

[DORRI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 09:36 PM

Also, another "random" question:
"In 1960 Guevara provided first aid to victims during the La Coubre arms shipment rescue operation" - Wikipedia claims

Never heard of this before.. Do you know if it is true?
if you mean the very moment of explosion, it seems that it was fidel who was in the scene, according to the last pages of jean-paul sartre book about the cuban revolution which i dont know the exact translation of its name into english, but is something about sugar :huh:
forgive me for my awful spelling. it's 3 am here.

[armedpoet]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 06:17 PM
the people they killed were anti-communists and followers of batista. They knew control would be impossible if they had a large number of batista follower, which in the end would of led to a lot more intervention by the US. They had to exterminate these batistians to gain complete power, because along with the overthrow of the batista regime, went its supporters, thus totally elliminating it.
Well I am anti-authoritarian communist. Are you going to kill me as well?

I recognise that most people subjected to the firing squads were gestapo, however there have been many reports of other dissidents (anarchists for instance) that were lined up against the wall and shot in the face.

Of course the international pressures on communist states make things very difficult, especially in the age of neoliberalism. But economic and imperialist pressures will always be there while we are living under a global Capitalist system.

The point is that if you must maintain a society through dictatorial force, it is not a socialist society.

[Wiesty]

I'll put it into simpler terms for you
In Revolutions, People die, Shit like that happens,
Dont like it? Then you can live under a Capitalist Authoratorian government, where more people will probably die of starvation then by the gun.

Harsh, but true.

[armedpoet]

In Revolutions, People die
You can simplify things as much as you like but it does not justify anything.

I am no refuting the fact that people die in revolutions.

I am and always will be a revolutionary and I am not committed to non-violence.

However the firing squads were not revolutionary, if anything they were counter revolutionary. If Che had faith in communism he would not of needed to murder everyone who opposed it.

Where are the "revolutionary" firing squads in Venezuela, Chile, Bolivia etc?

Socialism does not mean killing anyone who does not agree with you.

[Wiesty]

Then What do you plan on doing to the counter revolutionaries, who when exiled to America, will just cause a bigger fuss of what is happening?

[armedpoet]

Then What do you plan on doing to the counter revolutionaries, who when exiled to America, will just cause a bigger fuss of what is happening?

Because America is full of people that are not going to cause a fuss??

There will always be people within Capitalism that wish to preserve Capitalism, the elite and those that remain controlled by them.

But no revolution is a revolution unless the majority are involved and know why they are revolting. Therefore any counter revolutionaries would always be a minority within a socialist government.

However as long as America is the Capitalist empire there will always be an external threat to socialist countries. In fact as long as we live under a global Capitalist hegemony no true socialism can be achieved.

But, logically, it gives more justification for the empire to intervene if the socialist government is executing "dissidents".

Besides last time I checked capital punishment wasn't one of the tenets of socialism.

[Janus]

Besides last time I checked capital punishment wasn't one of the tenets of socialism.
:blink: Violence is supported and advocated by most socialists and communists. Some don't support the use of prisons. It's doubtful that capitalists will simply surrender without violence.


But, logically, it gives more justification for the empire to intervene if the socialist government is executing "dissidents".
That's not surpising as the capitalists always try to take the higher ground and establish a double standard that way. They would justify it simply on the basis of eliminating a perceived threat.

[armedpoet]

Violence is supported and advocated by most socialists and communists. Some don't support the use of prisons. It's doubtful that capitalists will simply surrender without violence.

Violence may be necessary in the over throw of Capitalism but it is not a productive way in which to maintain Socialism. In fact true socialism would require such a shift in social consciousness that, once established, there would not be such a thing as "counter revolutionaries" to kill.

The suppression of dissidents has always been and always will be a barbaric trait in any form of government.

[Janus]

Violence may be necessary in the over throw of Capitalism but it is not a productive way in which to maintain Socialism.
Yes, that is what most of us here agree with. No one wants to live under a police state.


In fact true socialism would require such a shift in social consciousness that, once established, there would not be such a thing as "counter revolutionaries" to kill.
Doubtful but let's hope so. :)

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 01:14 AM

In Revolutions, People die


However the firing squads were not revolutionary, if anything they were counter revolutionary. If Che had faith in communism he would not of needed to murder everyone who opposed it.

Where are the "revolutionary" firing squads in Venezuela, Chile, Bolivia etc?

Socialism does not mean killing anyone who does not agree with you.
And look what happened to those who were allowed to leave! The gusanos constantly committed terrorist acts toward the Cuban people who stood by Castro.

Imagine if those bourgeous Cubans were allowed to leave!

[Karl Marx's Camel]

This was done at the airport when he was seeing his father off and after they had had some 'differences'.

What kind of differences?