What's Up with France?

[MurderInc]

I suppose I could have written this in the 1950's, because at that time, France was appeared to be the best bet of the independent countries in western Europe going socialist. But nearly 60 years later, same ol', same ol'.

So, the news is all filled with discontentment in the labour class on levels never seen in the past 30 years. How is this going to manifest itself beyond the anger over proposed changes to the Labour Code? Is anyone, other than the Communist Party, standing up for whole scale change to the left?

I believe that in France, more than the UK, you'd have millions of foot soldiers if a credible group announced the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Am I really wrong about this, and do others see more a of right shift. (I do not.)

[Sentinel]

The French proletariat no doubt is the most progressive in Europe at the moment.
I have great hope that France will once again be the first nation to adopt the new world order, like happened in the 18th century. The workers of france have rediscovered their strength as a class during the recent unrest. :)

I don't dare hope a revolution tomorrow, but the signs of coming change are no doubt there.

[Fistful of Steel]

I'm hoping they keep up their discontent with society and want more, more, more. If they keep the labour protests going in the spirit of May 1968 positive results may be reaped.

[Dreckt]

I'm not so sure about France. They seem to have a lot of right-wing extremists, more than average actually. But at least they also seem to be progressing on the left too, so who knows...

[piet11111]

france is definitly more advanced then say the netherlands because they are much more capable to draw a line the capitalists wont cross if they value their money.

it pisses me off that the labour unions are still in high regard here as the poeple follow their advice like sheep.
actually a lot of poeple i know of are so sheeplike i always wonder why the capitalists are so damn gentle with the dutch because they can get away with so much more.

[which doctor]

Well, there are many differences between the uprising of 1968 and the most recent riots.

You must first look at the reasons behind the two. May '68 was built on social aspects such as sexual freedom. Challenging traditional norms was big in the 60's. Just look at the hippies in America. The 2006 riots were began as an opposition to a labor law. It was more of a workers uprising.

I would say that the most recent protests were of a more "revolutionary" act.

I do suspect that France will be the first country to have a real socialist revolution. This revolution, however, is still a while off. It is very likely to happen within most of our lifetimes (unless your one of the few older members on this board).

Give it a few years. Maybe you could even learn French and move over there to rally the masses. As for me, I will be off to Germany.

[which doctor]

Some assorted quotes from libcom.org/blog


The other major difference that can be seen in France today is that whereas in ‘68 the students were seen as external, though sympathetic, to the working class, today they are very much seen as part of it. University is much less the elitist privilege that it was in the late 1960s and it is thought that around half of all students in France have to keep up jobs while they study. Students are now seen as future workmates rather than future managers and when students come to the factories to extend or ask for solidarity, they are not seen as petit-bourgeois posh kids - as they may have been in the past - but as another set of workers with their own legitimate struggles. Many workers see the students collectively as ‘their children’ and come to demonstrations not only as workers but also as parents. A lot of people in France certainly testify to the idea that the links between workers and students (as well as other sections of society) are much stronger in 2006 than in 1968.


The mutual solidarity and respect shown by the different sections of society for each other have broken down massive possible barriers for future movements. Potentially, the stage has been set in France to see a genuinely autonomous working class movement emerge which places its trust in nothing but its own power to change the world.

[VermontLeft]

No there isn't going to be a revolution in France any time soon. :rolleyes:

if there is a revolution in the first world though itd probably be in france.

i think that france is actually at the front of a whole lot of really important fights. its the only country that willing to fight religion and religous sexism in a serious way (head scarfs) its the only one with a working-class that is willing to fight for their rights and it has a very active youth population thats willing to fight for its rights.

still though none of the "traditional" communist parties seem to be doing so well which says to me that if there is a revolution there its not going to be a "lenin" or a "moa" one, its gonna be a very different kind. :o

Sentinal may be right, when things to start to happen in france, its gonna be very "new".

good!! :)

[armedpoet]

It is interesting - and demoralizing, to compare the current situation in France to Australia.

Basically everyone in France under 26 is getting the equivalent of what was recently introduced in Australia under the IR reforms, Australian Workplace Agreements (AWA's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Workplace_Agreement)). In Australia everyone is now forced to sign up to one of these bullshit agreements.

France is quite possibly on the edge of massive social change, dear I say REVOLUTION, whereas Australians are still sitting at home watching big brother.

Of course there are many reasons for this ie our general lack of a historical knowledge, but it still makes me feel like I'm living on a fucking racist island with a bunch of morons.

On the subject of '68.


I would say that the most recent protests were of a more "revolutionary" act.

I disagree, '68 was far more counter hegemonic and therefore paved the way for greater sociological change.

Hopefully the recent protests can build from where '68 left off rather than simply building a strong opposition party.

"The system cannot be reformed!"

[Sentinel]

Originally posted by VermontLeft
still though none of the "traditional" communist parties seem to be doing so well which says to me that if there is a revolution there its not going to be a "lenin" or a "moa" one, its gonna be a very different kind. :o

Sentinal may be right, when things to start to happen in france, its gonna be very "new".

Indeed, I'm getting more and more convinced that Leninists have had their say in history. Regardless the reasons of their failure in the last century, was it flaws in their politics or merely the material conditions that were missing (actually, both are to blame in my opinion), I suspect their credibility has suffered a lethal blow among the global working class. They had their chance and they blew it. :(

For better or worse.

The revolution, when it comes, will indeed be something new and fresh. Maybe the workers movement needed the "experiment" of the twentieth century to learn what the wrong kind of vanguardism can lead to?

I'm getting quite sure the time is nearing for the ideas of the more libertarian left to show what they are good for, that the next proletarian revolution will be led by the proles themselves. :)

[RaiseYourVoice]

The problem i can see in france is the step from securing the social security they have to extending it and fighting for more equality. but well that might happen in the progress when they see what they can do.

In Germany there is about the same law being put in practice now with the difference that it is not restricted to young people but for everybody. here though no one protests against it. unions loose support in the population and their strikes dont stop everything around here.... there is not much solidarity around. this summer i am visiting paris maybe i get some french socialists to talk to

[Dimentio]

Any transition to a non-capitalist society must be made in Europe as a whole. Thus, we must wait until the EU becomes a real federal unit. France, Germany and the BeNeLux may be enough, but the rest of Europe must follow. Morover, any functioning non-capitalist society must be some kind of technocracy.

[Angry Young Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 01:21 PM
Any transition to a non-capitalist society must be made in Europe as a whole. Thus, we must wait until the EU becomes a real federal unit. France, Germany and the BeNeLux may be enough, but the rest of Europe must follow. Morover, any functioning non-capitalist society must be some kind of technocracy.
But surely with France's influence on the EU, it could be the first to kick off a total European revolution. Remember, during the Russian Civil War, the British were sending guns which led to a dockers' strike. Maybe the discontent if Britain gun-run again will cause a British revolution :P

[Dimentio]

France cannot make a succesful transition without Germany. With Germany though, the bloc would dominate Europe and be able to stall any counter-alliance.

[Tickin' TimebOmb John]

Personally i rekon the idea of a revolution in a 1st world country is sadly highly unlikely in the near future. I think that hopes gotta lie in developin nations like nepal, and the current trends across south america of anti-imperialism, adn lk for these nations to force the capitalist impreilists back to exploitin 1st wrld countries to ignite the kind of anger neccesary for a 1st wrld revolution.

[Cult of Reason]

Enrique, I think that non-Technocratic non-Capitalist post-revolutionary societies are possible, and would be quite successful. With the success in one area (say, France) I would imagine that the Revolution would spread rapidly, so that soon enough of Europe would be post-revolutionary for a technate to develop.

[Fistful of Steel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 07:55 PM
Enrique, I think that non-Technocratic non-Capitalist post-revolutionary societies are possible, and would be quite successful. With the success in one area (say, France) I would imagine that the Revolution would spread rapidly, so that soon enough of Europe would be post-revolutionary for a technate to develop.
Just by showing something can happen and work it'll encourage countless others to try. Once the people can see it's possible then hopefully it would have a domino effect in revolutionizing the populace and making them aware.

[piet11111]

im expecting the revolution to start in france then it will spread to germany and from there it will go to the Benelux country's to spain italy and switserland.
the united kingdom i think would be the last of the western european country's to join the revolution.

[Body Count]

I'd like to know OTHER ASPECTS of these recent uprisings in France.

Are they supporting OPEN IMMIGRATION?

Are they supporting QUEER RIGHTS?

Female rights?

What is the opinion on religion? Is it anti-religion in general, or are these people in support of just keeping France secular (Or in other words, discriminating against Muslims?).

Or is it all just about the labour laws?

[redstar2000]

It's not yet time to break out the champagne...


Originally posted by Direland
FRANCE: ONE-THIRD IDENTIFY WITH NEO-FASCIST RIGHT IN NEW POLL

Four years after neo-fascist Jean-Marie Le Pen created a political earthquake in France when he beat the French Socialists' candidate for place in the presidential run-off, a disturbing new poll released today in France shows that a third of the French -- 34% ---say the extreme right is close to their pre-occupations (as opposed to 66% disagree). The poll, taken by the leading polling institute IFOP and published today in the Paris daily Metro, also shows that 35% believe that the extreme-right "enriches" political debate. And 48% of the French say neo-fascist Jean-Marie Le Pen, leader of the National Front, best incarnates the extreme right (followed at 24% by ultramontane Catholic Viscount Phillipe de Villiers, the aristocratic leader of the ultra-right, xenophobic, homophobic, and extreme nationalist MPF (Movement for France). Le Pen's daughter and designated successor, Marine Le Pen, the National Front's vice president, gets 19%). Combine the scores of Le Pen and his daughter, and 67% of the French who identify with the extreme right say their sympathy goes to the neo-fascist National Front.

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2006/...e_onethird.html (http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2006/04/france_onethird.html)

If I did the math correctly, that means about 24% of the French might well vote for the National Front in the next elections.

Politics in France are polarizing.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[RaiseYourVoice]

That is really not the first sign of it. it was first shown when they voted against the european constitution. the opposers were divided into those who didn't want a european military and more liberal markets, and those who didn't want the "bad guys" from eastern europe to "steal" their jobs.

Any revolution resulting out of this would right away take a repressive face because it would have to fight the right wingers... not really a nice start for world revolution

[piet11111]

Any revolution resulting out of this would right away take a repressive face because it would have to fight the right wingers... not really a nice start for world revolution

i agree it would be much nicer if we shot the facists/nazi's on sight dont you think ? ;)

[Dreckt]

It is a scary development that the nationalists are getting more votes. This must be prevented by all means!

[piet11111]

well it seems that the pvda (dutch labour party) is going to implement the same thing when they win the next elections here.

seems i was right when i posted that the EU is using france as a testing grounds for this law to make it easier to screw the working class over at wish.

[redsoldier32]

i was born in france and believe that with chirac we're screwed, back when we

had degualle, we were going crazy, building whatever we wanted, doing what we

wanted and the americans keeping off, then the cold war ended, and of course

most people in france are pretty racist towards arabs (im not)

[LoL84]

Sorry for my bad english. I'm French.
I did not understand all the discussion well but already I can say that there will be no revolution as of tomorrow in France. The general situation is rather complicated to summarize into only one post. First of all, we have the chance in France to have still a powerful organized labour movement. What is increasingly rare in the advanced capitalist countries. The CGT (General Confederation of the Workers) is the majority trade union. Its direction is reformist but it resembles a trade union gauchist compared with Afl-cio for example. Its past is related to the PCF (Communist Party French) which was the greatest party of France in 1945. Today the PCF lost control there but most of the base is still influenced by Stalinism or the trotskism. It should be noted that another trade union, more radical, was created there are ten years on the initiative of militants trotskists and anarchist and that it very developed becoming majority in certain professional sectors. It is called "solidarity".
At the political level, the PCF was for a long time the strongest party of the labour movement. Then it was done caught up with by the PS (Left Socialist, social democrat) which definitively replaced leader by gaining the presidential election of 1981 on the basis of program anticapitalist. But obviously reformism has to be inclined in front of the laws of capitalism and since 1983 the PS adopted a policy of adaptation which one calls in France "social-liberalism". Then comes, in the Nineties, the emergence of the extreme-left trotskist. The two principal organizations are the LCR (Communist League Revolutionary) and LO (Working Fight). What makes the specificity of France it is the weight of these two revolutionary communist formations within the labour movement.
There is, moreover, one long tradition of fight in France and revolutionary spirit. The French state itself results from a revolution which reversed monarchy with the profit of the aristocracy. Also May ago 1968 about of which everyone intended to speak. But there was also the great mobilization of 1995, which brought the general strike unlimited during several weeks, which had as a result of the resignation of the Prime Minister.
Since 2002, when this government was elected, there were several mobilizations. The mobilization counters the reform of the retirements into 2003 which unfortunately failed, the mobilization of the high-school pupils last year against the reform of the national education, which proceeded right in the middle of the countryside for "no" the anticapitalist with the carried out European constitution in a unit way by the unit of the labour movement.
There were many hard fights on certain companies against the dismissals.
This mobilization of the étudiantss at the beginning with licence with the whole of the working class to mobilize and express its revolt against this illegitimate government. But in spite of that, the situation is not a revolutionist. Many workers are still influenced by reformism. The influence of the extreme-right-hand side is also very strong. Despite everything these mobilizations, the revolutionary militants are still obliged to row with misconception in France. Even if if obviously the level of fight and conscience of the French labour movement brings a certain comfort to us that do not have other comrades elsewhere.
For perceiving well the evolution of the political life in France, here the result of the presidential elections in France since 1969.

1969
Georges Pompidou (conservative) 44.46%
Alain Poher (Christian Democrat ) 23.20%
Jacques Duclos (stalinist) 21.27%
Gaston Deferre (social-democrat) 5.01%
Michel Rocard (left socialist) 3.61%
Louis Ducatel (centrist) 1.26%
Alain Krivine (trotskyst) 1.05%

1974
François Mitterand (social-démocrat supported by stalinist) 43.24%
Valéry Giscard D'Estaing (conservative) 32.60%
Jacques Chaban-Delmas (christian democrat) 15.10%
Arlette Laguiller (trotskyst) 2.33%
René Dumont (ecologist) 1.32%
Jean-Marie Le Pen (nationalist) 0.74%
Alain Krivine (trotskyst) 0.36%
Bertrand Renouvin (monarchist) 0.17%

1981
Valéry Giscard d'Estaing (conservative) 28.31%
François Mitterand (social democrat) 25.84%
Jacques Chirac (conservative) 17.99%
Georges Marchais (stalinist) 15.34%
Brice Lalonde (ecologist) 3.87%
Arlette Laguiller (trotskyst) 2.30%
Michel Crépeau (centrist) 2.21%
Michel Debré (conservative) 1.65%
Huguette Bouchardeau (left socialist) 1.10%

1988
François Mitterand (social-démocrat) 34.10%
Jacques Chirac (conservative) 19.95%
Raymond Barre (Christian democrat) 16.54%
Jean-Marie Le Pen (nationalist) 14.37%
André Lajoinie (stalinist) 6.75%
Antoine Waechter (ecologist) 3.77%
Pierre Juquin (radical left) 2.09%
Arlette Laguiller (trotskyist) 1.99%
Pierre Boussel (trotskyist) 0.38%

1995
Lionel Jospin (social-démocrat) 23.29%
Jacques Chirac (conservative) 20.83%
Edouard Balladur (conservative) 18.57%
Jean-Marie Le Pen (nationalist) 15.00%
Robert Hue (left socialist - PC was "destalinised" after 1989) 8.64%
Arlette Laguiller (trotskyist) 5.30%
Philippe De Villiers (conservative-nationalist) 4.73%
Dominique Voynet (écologist) 3.31%
Jacques Cheminade (social-democrat) 0.27%

2002
Jacques Chirac (conservative) 19.87%
Jean-Marie Le Pen (nationalist) 16.86%
Lionel Jospin (social-democrat) 16.17%
François Bayrou (christian democrat) 6.83%
Arlette Laguiller (trotskyist) 5.72%
Jean-Pierre Chevenement (left nationalist) 5.32%
Noel Mamere (ecologist) 5.24%
Olivier Besancenot (trotskyist) 4.24%
Alain Madelin (libertarian) 3.90%
Robert Hue (left socialist) 3.37%
Bruno Mégret (conservative-nationalist) 2.34%
Christiane Taubira (centrist) 2.31%
Corinne Lepage (right ecologist) 1.88%
Christine Boutin (christian democrat) 1.19%
Daniel Gluckstein (trotskyist) 0.46%

[OneBrickOneVoice]

My father is French and I speak french. It is very interesting how in France the elections are actually democrat and you have many parties not just two broad parties. It's much smarter and precise. Of course it strangely means that less than 1/5 of the nation supports the president lol. Also it's good to hear that the socialists are gaining support although it's sickening to hear that le pen has more support than them.

[LoL84]

It is not completely democratic. To be able to present itself, it is necessary to have at least 1000 signatures of mayors. I am militant with the LCR and in this moment much of mayors refuse to give us their signature because the PS gave instruction to reduce the number of candidatures to on the left be able to be on being elected in 2007.
Here results of the first surveys for the presidential elections of 2007:

Segolène Royal (social-democrat) 34%
Nicolas Sarkozy (conservative) 30%
without opinion 18%
Le Pen (nationalist) 10%
Villepin (conservative, actuel prime minister) 6%
Bayrou (christian-democrat) 5%
Besancenot (trotskyist) 4.5%
Laguiller (trotskyist) 3%
Buffet (left socialist) 3%
Villiers (conservative-nationalist) 3%
Voynet (ecologist) 1.5%

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 02:38 PM
It is not completely democratic. To be able to present itself, it is necessary to have at least 1000 signatures of mayors. I am militant with the LCR and in this moment much of mayors refuse to give us their signature because the PS gave instruction to reduce the number of candidatures to on the left be able to be on being elected in 2007.
Here results of the first surveys for the presidential elections of 2007:

Segolène Royal (social-democrat) 34%
Nicolas Sarkozy (conservative) 30%
without opinion 18%
Le Pen (nationalist) 10%
Villepin (conservative, actuel prime minister) 6%
Bayrou (christian-democrat) 5%
Besancenot (trotskyist) 4.5%
Laguiller (trotskyist) 3%
Buffet (left socialist) 3%
Villiers (conservative-nationalist) 3%
Voynet (ecologist) 1.5%

To be able to present itself, it is necessary to have at least 1000 signatures of mayors


1000 mayors!? Who gives Le Pen his sigs?

[LoL84]

Many mayors, elected without label, give their signature to no matter whom by "democratic principle". But the FN (National Front) directs also some town halls.

[LoL84]

Tomorrow will be on May 1. We await more than one million anybody in the street for the demonstrations organized by all the trade unions and the left-wing policy parties.

[which doctor]

It's very nice to have someone who is actually French to be giving us their opinion on this subject.

[rebelworker]

Italy and Spain are also worth watching.

last election in Italy in particular showed polorisation, Communist pary got 2.5 million votes, Facists got 500,000.

Spains three biggest unions are communist, socialist and anarchist.

[violencia.Proletariat]

LOL84, how big is the French CNT?

[which doctor]

On Monday, students re-entered the Sorbonne for the first day since it was occupied in March. Several hundred students from various French universities had voted to re-occupy it, and around 200 students occupied a conference room, but were escorted out by riot police later that day.

[LoL84]

LOL84, how big is the French CNT?
There are two CNT in France. Cnt-f, excluded from AIT to have given up the references to anarcho-syndicalism with the profit of the revolutionary trade unionism to open with those which are not anarchist and the scission which occurred at the time of exclusion to reform Cnt-ait it on anarcho-trade unionists bases.
It is the first which is largest. It is in full growth and spent 1000 to 5000 members since 2000. It could directed certain fights recently in particular the strike of the workers of MacDonald of Paris. But it remains very small and marginal compared with the large trade unions. The CGT has 800 000 members, FO 500 000, the CFDT 300 000 and even Solidaires, a more radical trade union created by militants of extreme-left has 80 000 members.
As for the scission, Cnt-ait, it is to it a small group of a hundred people which has only very little influence.


On Monday, students re-entered the Sorbonne for the first day since it was occupied in March. Several hundred students from various French universities had voted to re-occupy it, and around 200 students occupied a conference room, but were escorted out by riot police later that day.
All the universities were freed. The cores of radical militants tried to block some of them but that lasted only a few hours because the large majority of the students are for the resumption of the courses now that the CPE was withdrawn. It will be very hard from now on to start again the mobilization to continue to fight against the remainder of the law which included the CPE. This law comprises some social regressions like the right to leave the school to work as from 14 years (whereas the school was obligatory up to 16 years) and the authorization of the night-work as from 15 years. But this mobilization advanced the conscience of many students and of the militant cores constituted themselves in all the universities. On my city, my political organization, the LCR (Revolutionary Communist League) recruited much among the mobilized students.