Libya...socialist or not?

[Geddan]

Moammar Qadaffi (sp.) has built, he says, an "arabic socialist republic". I've read some about the country and it seems, due to encyclopedias (which you shall not trust fully) like the country is a socialist, democratic (for being one of the infamous Arab republics...it seems like Qadaffi has loosened his tight grip on the country which he had before, too) and pretty humane republic with free health care, free education, cheap houses and such... Anyone who can confirm or add something?

[suffianr]

According to Muamar Qathafi's Green Book, well, probably. :)

[Pete]

They also do not support the ban on landmines.

[Just Joe]

I don't know if anyone watched the 'Holidays In The Axis Of Evil', TV show, but Libya was on it and I was a bit dissapointed. Too much personality cult and a bit too authoritarian. A lot better than most Arabic states but Socialist? I'm not so sure.

Irish Republicanism will always be grateful to Quadaffi though.

[sin miedo]

Heh, true true.

[Reuben]

Gaddaffi is at best a quasi-socialist.

n the 1970s he basically ethnically cleansed the tiny jewish population when he confiscated all of thier property causing almost all f the remaning 500 jews to leave.

He has funded an extremely broad range of groups includin both the Workers Revolutionary Party and some fascist/third positionsit groups including, i think, the N during the 70s or 80s. BNP leader Nick Griffin was recently taken on an all expenses paid trip to lybia courtes of Gaddaffi, hes not worth heroising

[praxis1966]

I don't trust any of the information out there on Qadaffi's regime. I wouldn't trust the word of any military dictator, and I think we're all in agreement that the corporate owned mass media outlets aren't to be trusted either.

[redstar2000]

Libya, like Kuwait, has a relatively small population sitting atop a relatively large oil deposit.

What Libya lacks is any real counterpart to the Kuwaiti "royal" family (a financial black hole); hence it is able to afford a fairly lavish welfare state...especially by Middle Eastern standards.

I've never had the impression that the working class has any real power in Libya...even in name. And while not as bad as "Saudi" Arabia or Iran, it inclines more towards Muslim medievalism than toward modern civilization.

So no, I wouldn't call it "socialist".

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 11:46 pm on April 9, 2003)

[Aleksander Nordby]

But Libya are a great allied against imperialist U$A.

[BRIN]

Muamer Qadaffi is a great man he has turned Lybia into socialist haven of the Arabic world beterthen sadams so called socialist state.He pissed off the burocratic bullshit un-like a certain soviet union.

Don't forget he supported Castro financially when he was down

[thursday night]

It is an interesting subject. It discussions like these, I always bring the subject down to a simple question: would the life of the average worker be better under the current regime or under a different one (most probably a right-wing American backed tinpot dictator). Libya, due to it's huge supply of oil and very small population, has been able to give it's citizens a considerably high standard of living. Ideologically, it certainly isn't an ideal example of a governmental system but all in all, I have decided whether to declare solidarity with the Libyans or not.

Brin, is it true what you say about Qadaffi's support of Fidel?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Whether or not you think Libya is a Socialist state, the main thing is that Mu'ammar Kathafi has achieved his aim.

If you read the great Green Book, you will see that Kathafi has created his dream for Libya i.e. An Islamic-Socialist Republic. redstar, you said it inclines towards Muslim medievalism. Quite what you mean by that, I am unsure, but if what you mean is that Kathafi has tried to return Libya to the Middle Ages, like people claimed Ayatollah Khomeini did in Iran, then you are wrong. Libya's health and education system is up there with the best in the world. Like Castro, Kathafi first concentrated on the need for hospitals and schools of the very highest quality, and that he has achieved. The great thing Kathafi did is allow Islam to survive alongside his Socialism. The people of the Great Jamahiriya are happy, and at the end of the day this is all that matters. Someone said that Kathafi used a personality cult. This is true, but it is not huge. Not like Saddam, or Kim in North Korea. At the end of the day, what leader doesn't use a personality cult?

Libya...Socialist or not? Well, I don't think it is the kind of Socialism that many of the members of this forum crave, however Kathafi's aim was for Islamic Socialism, and this was achieved with the support of the people of the Jamahiriya. Libya is happy in itself, and that is all that matters at the end of the day. The Jamahiriya is one of the most successful states in the world.

I suggest you read the Green Book. Then you will see what I mean. He has achieved what he set out to do an more. An unsung hero Mu'ammar Kathafi will forever be. One who's reputation was tarnished by the west, suprise suprise. But to his people, he has vastly improved their livlehoods and that is what matters at the end of the day.

[BRIN]

Thursday Night i saw it on the history channel he also supports the ira and lots of other left wing terrorist group.

Because back in the late 70's and the 80's his oil profits boomed and thats where he got the money to support the other groups/regimes etc.

[redstar2000]

Socialsmo, you know exactly what I mean by medievalism.

What are the roles permitted women in Libya? What educational and occupational opportunities? Can they dress as they please and walk the streets safe from clerical violence? Can they control their own fertility?

You know as well as I that this is the fundamental cancer at the heart of "Islamic law"...and it will not go away no matter how many times you deny it.

The barbaric treatment of women is no longer acceptable to civilized people! And no excuses are permitted. :angry:

:cool:

[Wolfie]

redstar2000: racist? surely not!

I think Quaddafi would like to call Libya socialist becuase I think he is a socialist, but the question of having a proper Islamic socialist state is not i think entirly possible.

"religion is the opium of the people. etc." - Marx

[Political Suicide]

I recently read in Time Magazine an Article on Qaddafi. They had an interview with him where he said that NATIONALISM was the cause for Libya's success.

[Geddan]

We could at least say that in theory Libya is socialist and religious. If Qadaffi wants to realise his dream, however, one of these two components must go, or what do you say? From what I've heard about the Green Book, it is socialist.

[BRIN]

Libya's religious but not fundimentalist for the women have equal rights to the men and are allowed to join the armed forces

[thursday night]

Very interesting. My support for Libya grows day by day. And redstar, I believe that women have equal rights as men.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

thursday night....they do.

It is just redstar talking about things he does not know about again. It's just his anti-Islamic attitude. He cannot help the religious prejudices he has.

[RedCeltic]

[edit] ::: Shouldn't post in this thread I don't know what I'm talking about.. ignore me lol.. ;)

[Doshka]

Qadaffi has made a lot of amazing accomplishments and Libya's health and education has improved greatly in his reign..and no redstar..women are NOT oppressed there at all, ive been there several times...but the truth is that in the Arab world most people think hes crazy...his theories are a little insane. a few years ago he declared that Shakespeare was an Arab, calling him El-Shiekh Zubire...he refuses to live in a palace or a house at all and insists on staying in his tent...and he takes his tent wherever he goes...when he visited Amman he decided on placing his tent in the middle of the 8th circle...closing off all the streets..i always thought he was an amazing ruler but i have to admit..the funniest jokes are on him

[Umoja]

It's a better welfare state then the UAE then? *Puts on his to live at list*

[Exploited Class]

Libya is by far one fo the most progressive middle eastern/islamic states there is. It would have been a great race between Iraq and Libya for having a successful, progressive and large middle class if Iraq had not been subjected to such harsh economic sanctions.

Right now Kadaffi is working against the World Bank which I think says a lot. He is the only person to so far make as much progress in uniting most of northern africa as a single economic entity in order to be on par with the rest of the world.

Also Reagan really, really, really, really hated Communists/socilaists and he bombed Libya so I have wonder. hehehe

But seriously, there is a lot of anti-kadaffi propaganda purpatrated by the west that is not deserving of Kadaffi or the Libyian people.

Great healthcare, great education, great housing and low low poverty and very large middle class with hardly any rich upperclass. I would say he is very devoted to his people, has been successful in keeping his country intact after the fall of Soviet Russia. He has to be a pretty good statesman.

As far as the country itself being communist/socialist, well true the people are not in direct control of the production. But at this point of the game, sitting on top of the oil they do, one of the most precious commodities out there. It might be in their best intrest to not have a revolving democratic system which can have easy influence played on it by the western world. Centralized and static government control, in that region, with those precious reserves and western civ's violent insurgents to control that oil might be the best way to go at present time.

Women are as equal as men, hold jobs and everything else in that country.The religious influence is very mild in comparison to America's Christian control of politics, or Saudi Law.

[Umoja]

Man it keeps getting better and better. Anyone know why Egypt didn't turn out like that?

[thursday night]

Because Egypt gave up on the anti-imperialist/nationalist rhetoric for the most part, I believe.

[redstar2000]

I must admit that some of these posts--doshka, exploitedclass--make interesting points.

I still don't think that an Islamic welfare-state is "socialism" in any meaningful sense of the word...but that it is a vast improvement on the medieval despotism of "Saudi" Arabia or the new quisling regime in Iraq is something I will freely admit.

It is not necessary that other countries be to our liking in order to deserve our support against U.S. imperialism. We don't have to freely hand out the "official socialist/communist medal" to anyone who claims it or who has it claimed for them, in order to assert that every country has the right to determine its own destiny free from the political, economic, and military plots of U.S. imperialism.

In my view, the fundamental "qualification" for a country to legitimately be called "socialist" or "communist" is political and economic power directly in the hands of the working class.

By this admittedly severe measure, even Cuba and Vietnam are only "semi-socialist"...they still have a long way to go.

North Korea, in my view, is an unstable Asiatic Despotism on a model of confucianist ideology. Laos doesn't even have a working class of any significance. It is what Cambodia would have been like if Pol Pot and his followers had not been nutballs.

And, of course, countries like Venezuela and Brazil have not yet had revolutions...though it may be fairly said that the situations there are certainly developing in interesting directions.

"Wait and see" really is quite often the best approach.

:cool:

[Exploited Class]

It is going to be socialist based countries like Libya that are going to make it possible for other poorer nations having socialist revolutions to make it after the revolution. One of the things that hit Cuba the hardest after the revolution was financially in a global market the socialist system was not the best to go head to head against a capitalists system.

Russia had to help Cuba as well as did Venezuala after the fall of Soviet Union.

It is going to be these small pocketed stable and rich regions of psuedo socialist countries that are going to make it possible for others to depend on while trying to establish a new government and form of economy.

Look at Venezuala as a good example. He can be voted out half way through his presidency, and will probably face that challenge this November or so. That makes Venezuala very unstable and very hard for socialism to take roots and grow. It will make it much easier for them to borrow or get discounts and make allies with countries in the same leftist atmosphere.

And libya has been a very good country to smaller less fortunate countries in its attempt to eliminate 3rd world debt.

So yes I would say it is and is not going anywhere. It may be on a international geo-policital level the only way a slowly transitioning system can go to socialism without the percussions associated with having a socialist system. China is going capitalist because of problems, N. Korea has a lot of financial crisis, Cuba has yet to be given a fair try, Venezuala has had one problem after another trying to stop it, all of soviet russia collapsed. Libya is going to have a whole population who has everything publictized and all the basic and advanced systems in place and ready to be taken over directly by the people when the time comes.
Very little shock on the part of the people, and hardly any problems with having all services still up and running. In reality they will only need to change power structure or government seat and move to democracy and not completely redo thier economic system to make a hard situation worse.

It also makes it a lot easier to use Libya as a good model for pre-revolutionary states as an example of what is possible. High living standards, Low Poverty, high education and free higher education, people not over worked, long vacation times..ect..ect Appelling to the common worker.

Because you can make a whole hell of a lot more documentries on America's homeless, poor, overworked than you ever could in Libya.

[thursday night]

I disagree with your comments on the DPRK, redstar. Just look at any of Chairman Mao's posts regarding People's Korea and read, and learn.

As to Cuba, how is it "quasi-socialist?" It is a fully socialist state operating under a Marxist-Leninist set of law. It is the purest form of socialism we have seen on this Earth. As to Vietnam, it is often overlooked when it comes to successful socialist revolutions but I'd say it is working there as well.

[redstar2000]

Thursday night, the question turns on what we mean when we use the word "socialism".

For example, to be crude about it, even the capitalists understand the marketing power of the phrase "revolutionary new...". In the age of spin and image-construction, labels count for more than content.

As an "old-fashioned Marxist", that's simply not good enough for me.

I understand the "formal" definition of "socialism" well enough...the absence of a legal capitalist class and a free market is what is usually offered, along with a one-party monopoly that claims to be ruling in the name of the working class.

I simply don't accept that as adequate.

If you'd like to go into more detail about this, it would make a good thread for theory. I wish that people had a much clearer understanding of the meaning of socialism/communism, if only so that people wouldn't get so excited over Islamic welfare-states and bourgeois left-reformist politicians.

I'm not holding my breath on this one.

:cool:

[kingbee]

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8744/readgb.htm

read and download the green book

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Awful Arabic-English translation as ever!

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

If you do read it, you will see that Kathafi (Gadaffi, Dathafi, Qadhafi) whichever way you want to spell it, has acheived what he set out to do and more. He has done for the people what he promised and has justified their support of him.

All you need to do is look at the facts....

- infant mortality: around 25 deaths per 1000 live births
- life expecatancy: 76
- negligable amount of deaths through HIV/AIDS
- about 3 children per female
- not hugely diverse (about 96% Arab) but some Italians, Egyptians, Turks, Pakistani's. 97% of population are Sunni Muslims..its ok redstar, Sunni Muslims are the type who are usually considered the "most peaceful" by ignorant Westerners such as yourself.
- 78% literacy rate...for a country of that size in Africa you must remember it is exceptional
- universal and compulsory vote over 18
- GDP per capita around US$7500 (again, exceptional for an African nation)
- 23% unemployed (bit of a downer)
- good trade links with many countries...Italy, Germany, UK, Spain, Turkey to name a few


These are a few of the main points from today's Libya.

He has created his dream of the Islamic-Socialist republic of the people whilst being, up until 1992, under immense pressure and sanctions from, you guessed it, America.

Mu'ammar Qadhafi is one of the great creators, revolutionaries and survivors.

"Al Jumahiriyah al Arabiyah al Libiyah ash Shabiyah al Ishtirakiyah al Uzma" is a secure, peaceful and successful part of the world.

I'll translate that especially for you redstar:

"That fundamentalist, old fashioned Islamic state in Africa full of brainwashed and ignorant Arabic Muslims who don't have a clue about anything other than a stupid book written about some imaginary bullshit" is a secure, peaceful and successful part of the world.

For everyone else who isn't as narrow-mided as restar, just "Libya" will do fine!

[redstar2000]

Socialsmo, why don't you reply to the arguments that I actually make...instead of just making up a bunch of crap and attributing it to me?

For example, why don't you explain why you think an Islamic welfare state is preferable to communism...and why it should be called "socialism" even though it clearly is not.

23% unemployment? (Cuba's rate is probably around 0.5%)

78% literacy? (In Cuba, it's probably close to 99%)

And Libya is actually far richer than Cuba is.

A woman suffering an unwanted pregnancy can obtain a free, safe abortion in Cuba. In Libya???

But, of course, there's one difference. In Cuba, pretty much everyone is going to "Hell" after they die; in Libya, you go to "Paradise" whether you want to or not.

Funny place, Libya. But not socialist.

:cool:


(Edited by redstar2000 at 10:26 pm on April 20, 2003)

[nz revolution]

Sleeps in a tent rather than a palace or a house, I like it.

Many world leaders should try this I think...

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 2:35 am on April 21, 2003
Socialsmo, why don't your reply to the arguments that I actually make...instead of just making up a bunch of crap and attributing it to me?

For example, why don't you explain why you think an Islamic welfare state is preferable to communism...and why it should be called "socialism" even though it clearly is not.

23% unemployment? (Cuba's rate is probably around 0.5%)

78% literacy? (In Cuba, it's probably close to 99%)

And Libya is actually far richer than Cuba is.

A woman suffering an unwanted pregnancy can obtain a free, safe abortion in Cuba. In Libya???

But, of course, there's one difference. In Cuba, pretty much everyone is going to "Hell" after they die; in Libya, you go to "Paradise" whether you want to or not.

Funny place, Libya. But not socialist.

:cool:


Firstly, nobody, especially not me, was denying that Castro had made a great nation of Cuba. So why are you giving their stats?

Secondly, women who are carrying an unwanted baby in Libya can have an abortion. Of all the things permitted by Allah, divorce is the most frowned upon. So that should sort your misconceptions about abortion out. That is how the Islamic law views abortion. And besides, Libya combines Italian civil law in with it's Islamic law, so that also allows abortion.

Also, to answer your points like you asked, I did not actually say an Islamic welfare state was preferable to communism. I simply do not know enough to judge between the two as yet. I was just pointing out the benefits of Qadhafi's system. Obviously his system is more suited to a Muslim, just as a communist system is more suited to the worker. But a person of any religious belief can be in Libya without being frowned upon by the state. Although I cannot speak for the individuals.

As for you characteristically ignorant last point, I don't think a reply is needed.

Next question....

[Doshka]

adding to what Socialsmo said, to make a country follow real socialism or communism in the world today is a very hard aim. most of the time the governments get corrupted along the way, especially in larger countries. cuba is a great country but the point is not to compare, its to add. libya is on its way to becoming a great country. on the other hand Qadafi is NOT perfect. everyone in the arab world knows how moody he is. every time the Arab Leagure meets, he changes huis mind about being an arab country and somehow changes back in the same day. hes always claiming that libya is an african nation yet in the constitution it clearly states that libya is an arab, muslim, socialist country. ARAB. hes also a bit of a dictater. he stomped out most of the stong opposing political parties in the begining of his reign. Qadafi always supported the palestinians and our plight but in the 1970s he suddenly decided that all the Palestinians must return to their land and threw out all of the Palestinian community in Libya. over 500 people were thrown in the desert for weeks before the red cross sent food and supplies. about two months after, Qadafi decided to let them back in, but nobody forgot. hes extremely moody and makes huge decisions too quickly. the point is that Libya has the potential to be a strong, socialist country, even if it is not completely socialist now. and the location is perfect. we need a strong nation in the arab world, for the freedom of the arabs comes with the first arab nuclear bomb.
its sad that we live in a world where a bomb brings freedom.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

True. When Qadhafi was in his early years of power he made some rash and stupid decisions. He was inexperienced though. Eccentric is a word you could use!

I don't think a bomb is neccessarily needed though. True, freedom does appear to come hand in hand with the bomb, but there are other ways which it could be done. Time will tell I suppose.

[Geddan]

Well, thanks everyone for helping me out on this one. I have read your points and the Green Book, and I am proud of this.

I have also compared Libya to other countries and read more about Libya and Qadhafi, and I have come to a conclusion...

Libya is a fine example of socialism and I have added Qadhafi to my hall of fame. Libya seems to be the most democratic Arab country that exists, with great potential!

Hail Libya

[thursday night]

Good for you Geddan, I am glad you came to an independent decision. :)

[redstar2000]

I agree with thursday night that people should arrive at their decisions independently.

But independent decisions can be wrong, Geddan, and your decision is.

If you don't understand socialism as working class power, then your evaluations are always going to be skewed in favor of the capitalist class. If an Islamic welfare state like Libya is "socialist", then why not a Christian welfare-state like Sweden?

And one for Socialsmo: if socialism is "better for workers" and the Islamic welfare-state is "better for Muslims", what is the most important way to identify the people of Libya, as workers or as Muslims?

I'm not asking how they subjectively feel about the matter at the moment; I'm asking what is crucial...class identity or religious identity?

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 11:53 am on April 22, 2003)

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

The important way to identify the people if Libya is as Islamic Workers. If you'd actually read the Green Book you'd know that's what Qadhafi said. But you are one who enjoys talking about things you do not know about.

You are, though, for once right in saying that Geddan's conclusion is somewhat wrong. Libya is not a "Socialist" country in the way it is defined normally. In it's essence, Libya's system is Qadhafi-ist. Not Socialist.

[Geddan]

Of course Libya is not a dictatorship ruled by workers. It is ruled by everyone through direct democracy (at least in theory, Qadhafi rules a bit too). The production is controlled by the people in a way described by Qadhafi in the Green book. No bourgeoisie seem to exist, the worker's are not enslaved and they are not forced to give away their fruits of labor. As mentioned, they control the production too. If that is not socialism, then many countries which claim to be socialist are not. And if it is not socialism, then it is at least a good start. My sources might be flawed, I haven't visited Libya, but I do at least have sources.

But Redstar, you have a point about religion. I think that Libya have to get rid of either its socialist component or its religious component to develop further. I hope that Qadhafi will reach for a classless society instead of a religious one.

But Redstar, your knowledge about Sweden is lacking (Well, I would be ashamed if I didn't know better than you here since I am a native Swede...). Sweden has not any longer got a state religion (Church and state got separated in 2000), and only 3 % of our population are christians (many more are baptized, but they do not practice their faith). Sweden is a welfare state, but not socialist. We have been ruled by the Social democratic labour party since 1932, and since then they have removed Socialism from their agenda.

(Edited by Geddan at 6:39 pm on April 22, 2003)

[thursday night]

Where can I purchase a copy of the Green Book?

[Geddan]

You can download it and print at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8744/mylinks1.htm

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

If you can read Arabic, buy it instead.

[Umoja]

Q-boy has another thing going for him. He's encouraging Pan-Africanism as well as Pan-Arabism. I believe he has plans on creating an African version of the EU, similar to what Haille Selassie was trying to implement in the early 70's.

[redstar2000]

Sometimes even the recent past comes back to haunt us...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/africa/2990854.stm

We shall, I trust, hear no more crap about "Islamic socialism", "the Green Book", "Pan-African Unity", "Arab Unity", etc.

At least not until the next big fake comes along.

:cool:

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

This is a great shame. Indeed, Qadhafi has turned his back on the Green Book and Islamic Socialism.

The glory days of the Libyan Jamahiriya appear to be well and truly over. So many leaders turn their back on their old glories after staying in power for so long. It appears as though Qadhafi is now no different.

(Edited by Socialsmo o Muerte at 2:11 pm on June 15, 2003)