If the Soviet Union Still existed.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

How free, do you think the soviet union would be in 2006?

On issues like gender, sexuality, nationality, disability?

[drain.you]

How do you mean? I dont really understand what you are asking.

Personally the Soviet Union was long dead before Stalin died. It couldn't continue because of the leaders that it got and world climate.

Say if Lenin had magically lived forever and ruled the Soviet Union up until at least 2006, then it would be about as free as it could be on sexuality, nationality and disability.

But that said, I have no idea what this thread is about so cant go into any detail without being given some hints to what you are looking for.
Depending on how this thread goes perhaps it should be removed from 'Discrimination'.

[вор в законе]

We can't possibly know. It depends also on how do you define ''free''.

Definitely the standards of living would be better than now and they were.

[вор в законе]

On issues like gender, sexuality, nationality, disability?

By the way there was no discrimination in neither of those, except maybe homosexuality, but the discrimination towards them was less than in the capitalist countries. Racism and ultra-nationalism were strictly forbidden.


EQUALITY

Totalitarian rule has cast a dark shadow over human rights in the Eastern bloc. But on some issues of equality the East is streets ahead of the South and of the West.

Parliamentary seats occupied by women for every 100 occupied by men, 1988.

http://www.newint.org/issue211/Images/equalgra.gif

US had 5 and UK had 6 .

Sources :

1 Human Development Report 1990 UNDP.
2 Squatter Citizen, J S Hardoy and Satterthwaite (Earthscan 1989).
3 Urban Land and Shelter for the Poor. Patrick McAuslan (Earthscan 1986).
4 Quand soufflent les vents des? CCFD, Feb 1990
5 State of World Population 1990 UNFPA.
6 Second World. Third World. Peter Madden, in New Ground Summer 1990.
7 Toxic waste for a small planet, David Weir in Consumer Lifelines IOCU, April 1989)
8 Environment Brief No 2. UNEP 1988
9 Levels and Trends in contraceptive use, UN 1989.


--------


The numbers speak for themselves.

But then again, Soviet Union was a bourgeoiscappiepersecutingpeople24/7gulag state. :D

[VermontLeft]

theres no way the soviet union could still be around. i mean with the internet an shit the government just wouldnt be able to keep control. i mean just look at all the trouble China's having.

plus even if gorbachov hadnt come in, someone had to reform it. it was just too fucking corrupt and fucked up for it to ever go back to what it was when it started. :(

i think that waaay in the begining that might have been a chance that it could have been something good. but also the more im reading on this site the less i believe in "lenininism" as a thing or whatever.

it just does seem t oalways end up with dictators! :o

i mean trosky, Stalin (:o), mao, Kim, castro, tito, all those other fuckers in eastern europe (:lol:), no matter how many people try and "fix" lenininism it always ends up fucking up.

seriously i think its probably time that we try out something else!! :)

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 06:39 AM
theres no way the soviet union could still be around. i mean with the internet an shit the government just wouldnt be able to keep control. i mean just look at all the trouble China's having.

plus even if gorbachov hadnt come in, someone had to reform it. it was just too fucking corrupt and fucked up for it to ever go back to what it was when it started. :(

i think that waaay in the begining that might have been a chance that it could have been something good. but also the more im reading on this site the less i believe in "lenininism" as a thing or whatever.

it just does seem t oalways end up with dictators! :o

i mean trosky, Stalin (:o), mao, Kim, castro, tito, all those other fuckers in eastern europe (:lol:), no matter how many people try and "fix" lenininism it always ends up fucking up.

seriously i think its probably time that we try out something else!! :)
I think the main thing is that these rules were seeing their power as more important than the general interest. I think that is true for almost any politician, but will be avoided by 'checks and balances'. And these were painfully non-existent in such countries. However, I think socialism and humanity definately can go together. The problem is that there has to be free press (truly free, so not tied with the state nor tied with the capital) and freedom of speech and true democracy. This all did not happened, and when it suddenly happens (like in perestrojka) then the whole system is doomed rapidly.

[Morpheus]

The USSR probably could have survived if (a) it started Gorbachev's reforms 10 years earlier and (b) the American empire disappeared so it didn't have to spend so many resources on the arms race. Kruschev actually started the USSR down the reform road, but was done in by (b). He tried to make peace with the US, but the US told him to fuck off. By the time Gorbachev restarted reform it was too little, too late. The end result of reform would have been social democracy, which can undoubtedly survive the internet.

[Maximicus]

.

[Entrails Konfetti]

There were workers movements at the falling of the USSR trying to take power, and implement real Socialism. But as was seen like in Hungary in 1957 when the workers revolted, they didn't have enough influence to maintain power. Alot of conclusions can be drawn as to why. So because the workers movements weren't strong enough, this allowed Communist Party officials to put a different face on these movements, a face which demanded capitalist reforms.

If the USSR were still around today, it might not be the same bureacratic state, but a genuine workers republic. That's assuming the workers could hold their own.

[Guerrilla22]

It would be the most democratic, utopian ass country on earth.

[вор в законе]

What irks me with regards to the Soviet Union is that all this blood that millions of people shed all this hope that so many people had went for nothing...

[Maximicus]

.

[Dreckt]

I'd like to think that China's capitalist reforms after Mao's death was a successful transition compared to Russia. Russia failed, thus the USSR collapsed, but China went on with the reforms and is now one of the biggest economical power in the world.

So, what would have happened if the Soviet Union was around today? Well, it would be the same union we saw in 1989 though there would be some progress in all general stuff. I think the Soviet Union would sooner or later adopt the same capitalist plan as China has.

It also depends on how the situation in the world would be like. Would al-Quaeda still have attacked the US on 9/11-2001, for example? Assuming the Soviet Union stopped it's expansion and assuming that events that happened since the fall of the union, then I believe the USSR would take a look on how China was doing, and in turn do the same.

The USSR would be as free as China is now. The so-called freedom depends on the economy, bluntly said. I mean, capitalism is for business more free than "statism" of the old regimes. You can move around freely and talk about everything in huge cities like Beijing and Shanghai, but when you travel to the native villages the situation changes. The state must loose control if they want to make money, because business must have the "freedom" to move around and change tactics, etc. It wouldn't be so effective if every corporation had to follow the strict rules of the state.

At least that is my view. We simply don't know :) ...

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by Red Brigade
Parliamentary seats occupied by women for every 100 occupied by men, 1988.


The USSR didn't have a parliament...

[вор в законе]

Not if we learn from their mistakes and try, try again.

Revenge will come...

[Free Left]

I'd like to think that China's capitalist reforms after Mao's death was a successful transition compared to Russia. Russia failed, thus the USSR collapsed, but China went on with the reforms and is now one of the biggest economical power in the world.

So, what would have happened if the Soviet Union was around today? Well, it would be the same union we saw in 1989 though there would be some progress in all general stuff. I think the Soviet Union would sooner or later adopt the same capitalist plan as China has

[Janus]

The USSR didn't have a parliament...
I think that refers to the Congress of Soviets.

[VermontLeft]

Free Left , why did you just copy and past what Dreckt said? :huh: :unsure:

also i think alot of these ideas on reform are kind of naive. i mean gorbachev tried reform and we know where that ended up. some people sais they could of done what china did ...but what did china actually do: mostly it went cappie.

would that really have been better for the ussr?

isn't it kind a better that its dead so that we can actually start again instead of having to always tell people why its "not really communist" or whateverr.

i mean i guess thats a problem anyways, but an actual ussr would make it like 50 times harder. seriously, sometimes a "deformed workers state" is mroe trouble than its worth. :o :P

[Raul]

If the Soviet Union was still around, life would be great. I would be living and studying in Moscow right now and being successful knowing that I was helping my fellow man. The USSR was the greatest thing man created. The Soviet Union helped third world nations, while the American's robbed them. They helped Nicaragua and El Salvador in the 70s and 80s, while Ronald Reagan was helping the right wing dictators in those countries torture its own people. Latin America has been oppressed for over five hundred years, and the only nation that has ever helped was the USSR. Africa too was helped by the USSR. They have been robbed since it was discovered. The Soviet Union was the real 'good guy' during the Cold War. I have Gorbachev for destroying the motherland and I hate him for not stepping down when he was given the chance to do so.

[Pukuotas]

First of all, the question(the idea) is insulting me for really. I was born in Soviet Union, all my chilldhood were spend in SU. And you know what? My country was ocupated (yes, ocupated) by Soviet Russia till '40 to '91. I'm happy that the evil empire felt down, and now I'm pround to live in not perfect, but in FREE state. In Soviet Union there was not lot of freedom. The soviet constitution said that you have freedom of religion. Bullshit! Freedom of movement? Bullshit again! Wanna go abroad (not to eastern block) - you have not big change to get a permit from authority. And if you'll get it, the KGB will examine you very well whan you came back. Political freedom? What political freedom?
There was not so good in Soviet Union, trust me [:
In my opinion the communism is not imposible if you trying to reach it by immperialistic agresive poltitic toward your neighbours 'n your own citizens. The communism (or whatever you reach) should be the will of the people. Free people.

Thank you for hearing my humble personal opinion 'n have a nice evening.

Soviet union sux ~[:

*Sorry for broken English*

[Goatse]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 10:53 PM
How free, do you think the soviet union would be in 2006?

On issues like gender, sexuality, nationality, disability?
It would be a shithole, just like it is today.

[Pukuotas]

If the Soviet Union was still around, life would be great. I would be living and studying in Moscow right now and being successful knowing that I was helping my fellow man. The USSR was the greatest thing man created. The Soviet Union helped third world nations, while the American's robbed them. They helped Nicaragua and El Salvador in the 70s and 80s, while Ronald Reagan was helping the right wing dictators in those countries torture its own people. Latin America has been oppressed for over five hundred years, and the only nation that has ever helped was the USSR. Africa too was helped by the USSR. They have been robbed since it was discovered. The Soviet Union was the real 'good guy' during the Cold War. I have Gorbachev for destroying the motherland and I hate him for not stepping down when he was given the chance to do so.

I must admit, that I agree that SU helped Latin America, Afica etc. much more than yankees. Those pendejos (yakees) even now keeps similar politics toward Latin America.
But still there was another side in eastern Europe. The situacian of Baltic States (can't talk about other soviet republics) was so wrong(my post above), but i must say that i heard from people that lived in other state of union, that the life in Baltic states was way better that in other parts of Soviet Union. Of course except the main citys of Russia (Moscow, Leningrad etc).

There can't be communism without freedom. Let me think... Freedom above everything.

and again it just my humble opinion and my experiance.

[rouchambeau]

Not free enough.

[Fistful of Steel]

I think if the U.S.S.R. was still around it would have to step up its authoritarian tendencies to an unprecedented degree to retain autonomy. The way it was going it had to be reformed by Gorbachev, and those reforms inevitably were the crack in the dam. The only way power could've been retained in the late 80's would be an even more militant ruling class, and the Union may have ended up isolated and akin to North Korea.

[вор в законе]

Let's not create another vicious circle about the past. Some people believe that Soviet Union was State Capitalist, some others a Degenerated Peasant State and some that it was Socialist. It is a matter of perspective and personal experience.

History has already decided for the fate of the Soviet Union. The fact that people like Yetslin in the end made it into the Politburo proves that the Soviet system was rotten, despite their achievements. Otherwise it wouldn't have collapsed. I think everyone would agree with this.


:hammer: Socialism Forward

[1984]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 07:43 PM
First of all, the question(the idea) is insulting me for really. I was born in Soviet Union, all my chilldhood were spend in SU. And you know what? My country was ocupated (yes, ocupated) by Soviet Russia till '40 to '91. I'm happy that the evil empire felt down, and now I'm pround to live in not perfect, but in FREE state. In Soviet Union there was not lot of freedom. The soviet constitution said that you have freedom of religion. Bullshit! Freedom of movement? Bullshit again! Wanna go abroad (not to eastern block) - you have not big change to get a permit from authority. And if you'll get it, the KGB will examine you very well whan you came back. Political freedom? What political freedom?
There was not so good in Soviet Union, trust me [:
In my opinion the communism is not imposible if you trying to reach it by immperialistic agresive poltitic toward your neighbours 'n your own citizens. The communism (or whatever you reach) should be the will of the people. Free people.

Thank you for hearing my humble personal opinion 'n have a nice evening.

Soviet union sux ~[:

*Sorry for broken English*
Are you sure you're free right now? Because I'm not so sure of that myself...

The whole concept of the "free world" is a big myth. Sure, you talk about almost everything but... will they ever listen to you?

I'm sure this is not your case, but "freedom" in a capitalist society lead the people towards conformism because they actually thing that rulers will do good for them, after all, they were chosen "from the people's own will".

I do not belive that.

In Brazil we also had an totalitarian regime back in the 70's, but little has changed since it was over. The politicians from the old regime remained in power and now, instead of state controlled, the media is capital controlled. Sure, it's good because you can speak for yourself, but has it got any better overall? I don't think so. The people have been through so much brain-washing from the media that it doesn't matter for the bourgeoise they have "free will" or not. But that's it. We lack class counciouness, and that's what really matters.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
- Goethe

"Freedom of the press is limited to those who own one."
- Liebling

"The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class shall represent and repress them in parliament."
- Karl Marx

The people should be aware of this. Then we could make some progress, until we can finally reach real freedom.