Communist Admittance?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Just out of curiousity, do communist organizations such as communist league allow middle classman who believe in the ways of Marx to join? Or is there a staunch protaleriat only policy.

[RebelDog]

I would admit them. As long as they are not capitalists.

[Axel1917]

If the Communist League does not like how you currently are at the moment, they will quickly change their position so that they will end up liking you! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 01:29 AM
If the Communist League does not like how you currently are at the moment, they will quickly change their position so that they will end up liking you! :lol: :lol: :lol:
More projection, eh Axel? Whatever. Your own organization's opportunism speaks for itself.

Now then, speaking for the League, our policy is clear: We only admit proletarians or young people from proletarian backgrounds. If someone from a non-proletaran background wants to join, they have to irreversibly break from those class relations and integrate themselves into the proletariat before they can become a member. Non-proletarians can be sympathizers of the League, but not members.

Miles

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 06:52 AM
More projection, eh Axel? Whatever. Your own organization's opportunism speaks for itself.


This has got to be the most hypocritical remark made on these forums this year! :lol:

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by Axel1917+Apr 20 2006, 01:55 AM--> (Axel1917 @ Apr 20 2006, 01:55 AM)
[email protected] 20 2006, 06:52 AM
More projection, eh Axel? Whatever. Your own organization's opportunism speaks for itself.


This has got to be the most hypocritical remark made on these forums this year! :lol: [/b]
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc15.jpg

[chimx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 06:52 AM
Now then, speaking for the League, our policy is clear: We only admit proletarians or young people from proletarian backgrounds. If someone from a non-proletaran background wants to join, they have to irreversibly break from those class relations and integrate themselves into the proletariat before they can become a member. Non-proletarians can be sympathizers of the League, but not members.
http://sbdisorientation.org/images/engels.jpg

"shit"

[Jesus Christ!]

http://www.mulon.de/goetter/goetter_marx/marx-2.jpg

"shit"

[Wanted Man]

Eight posts, and I'm loving this thread already. :lol:

[RedAnarchist]

http://guevariste.ifrance.com/che%20guevara%20(1)%20copier.jpg


"shit"

[England Expects]

Originally posted by CommunistLeague+Apr 20 2006, 06:52 AM--> (CommunistLeague @ Apr 20 2006, 06:52 AM)
[email protected] 20 2006, 01:29 AM
If the Communist League does not like how you currently are at the moment, they will quickly change their position so that they will end up liking you! :lol: :lol: :lol:
More projection, eh Axel? Whatever. Your own organization's opportunism speaks for itself.

Now then, speaking for the League, our policy is clear: We only admit proletarians or young people from proletarian backgrounds. If someone from a non-proletaran background wants to join, they have to irreversibly break from those class relations and integrate themselves into the proletariat before they can become a member. Non-proletarians can be sympathizers of the League, but not members.

Miles [/b]
Does that mean that the middle class are not allowed to pursue professions which they find fulfilling just because they are trapped in a capitalist system?

[JimFar]

Now then, speaking for the League, our policy is clear: We only admit proletarians or young people from proletarian backgrounds. If someone from a non-proletaran background wants to join, they have to irreversibly break from those class relations and integrate themselves into the proletariat before they can become a member. Non-proletarians can be sympathizers of the League, but not members.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/media/image/1920/1920b.jpg


"Shit!"

[Zeruzo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 06:52 AM
Now then, speaking for the League, our policy is clear: We only admit proletarians or young people from proletarian backgrounds. If someone from a non-proletaran background wants to join, they have to irreversibly break from those class relations and integrate themselves into the proletariat before they can become a member. Non-proletarians can be sympathizers of the League, but not members.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/04/19/summit.big.picture/story.fidel.castro.jpg

"shit"

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 01:52 AM
Now then, speaking for the League, our policy is clear: We only admit proletarians or young people from proletarian backgrounds. If someone from a non-proletaran background wants to join, they have to irreversibly break from those class relations and integrate themselves into the proletariat before they can become a member. Non-proletarians can be sympathizers of the League, but not members.

http://www.communistleague.org/01.jpg
Hooray!

http://www.communistleague.org/02.jpg
HOORAY!

http://www.communistleague.org/03.jpg
HOORAY!

You have your heroes. I have mine.

Miles

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by England [email protected] 22 2006, 02:24 PM
Does that mean that the middle class are not allowed to pursue professions which they find fulfilling just because they are trapped in a capitalist system?
If someone from a petty-bourgeois background wants to become a member of the League, they will have to irreversibly beak with their old class and find a proletarian job that's "fulfilling" and stay in it for a while (usually about 5-10 years).

Miles

[Noah]

If someone from a petty-bourgeois background wants to become a member of the League, they will have to irreversibly beak with their old class and find a proletarian job that's "fulfilling" and stay in it for a while (usually about 5-10 years).

This makes no sense..A craftsmen must sell his goods to live..so he must start his own business thus he his self-employed (petty bourgeois) that doesn't make him any higher paid than the average proletriat or have less hours. So is he not still part of the proletriat?

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 07:16 PM
http://guevariste.ifrance.com/che%20guevara%20(1)%20copier.jpg


"shit"
i think he broke with his class

i mean

he shot them

so yeh

;)

anyway i can understand the CL's viewpoint
what about students though?

[which doctor]

Wasn't Marx a prole? I mean he wasn't born a prole, but he certainly wasn't wealthy by any standards for most of his life.

[JC1]

Marx and Engel's became prolatarian. Engel's sold his shares in his dad's firm and worked as a clerk, and marx did odd job's and made a little money off freelance journalism.

Lenin and his contemporary's almost all came from petit-bourgoise backround's, but when they started there activity as bolshevik's, they were pushed outta the middle class becuase they were all way's running from the cop's.

Most bolshevik's (Pre-1917) lived off of doing odd job's and being involved in criminal activity.

I would also add that while the the worker's only policy of the CL is a policy that would have been ultra leftist back in the day, this is not the case now. This is becuase back in the day, petit-bourgoise types were nessecary in the worker's mov't to germinate our class with class cousince.

But now, our class, in almost every country, has the germ of class counsince. The petit-bourgoise play's a redundant role. There pressence no longer garner's any advantages for our class.

[More Fire for the People]

CL: What constitutes petty-bourgeois? Are civil engineers petty-bourgeois? industrial engineers? scientists? guild-lawyers? corporate lawyers? prostitutes?

[which doctor]

I always thought Engels was a member of the bourgeois. I thought he was the one who supported Marx economically.

[JC1]

I always thought Engels was a member of the bourgeois. I thought he was the one who supported Marx economically.


Engel's sold his shares in his dad's firm and worked as a clerk,

He was a member of Capital. He joined the rank's of labour. Marx got a little help from freddy in the begining of his life in London, but ended up living destitute.


CL: What constitutes petty-bourgeois? Are civil engineers petty-bourgeois? industrial engineers? scientists? guild-lawyers? corporate lawyers? prostitutes?

Anyone who sell's there labour power is a worker.

[JimFar]

Friedrich Engels was a bourgeois to the day that he died. After the crushing of the revolutionary uprisings of 1848, he returned to his dad's textile manufacturing business, where he stayed on as a partner until the age of fifty, when he sold his share of the business and retired. After 1848, he was responsible for supporting not only himself and his own family, but also Marx and his family, since Marx was not able to make ends meet off his earnings as a journalist and freelance writer.

When Engels sold his share of the family business, he acquired enough money to ensure comfort for his own family plus Marx's. So basically, Engels and indirectly, Marx, were living off the exploitation of textile workers in England and Germany.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Miles, what makes someone "middle class"? Are you referring to the petty-bourgeois class as "middle class?" Because many people who sell their labor power think of themselves as middle class. I hope you don't go by that phrase alone.

[JimFar]

JC1 wrote:


. Marx got a little help from freddy in the begining of his life in London, but ended up living destitute.

Well, in the years following 1848, when Marx and his family first came to London, he was certainly destitute, even with Engels' financial assistance, since Engels was not earning that much money, himself, at that time. However, later on, Engels was able to make a lot of money, such that he was able to retire quite comfortably, and he had enough money left over, to help his friend, Marx, to be able to live comfortably as well. In fact, Marx was able to afford fairly lavish weddings for his daughters. So while Marx was quite poor, well into his middle years, he was reasonably well off in later life.

[England Expects]

Originally posted by CommunistLeague+Apr 23 2006, 12:50 PM--> (CommunistLeague @ Apr 23 2006, 12:50 PM)
England [email protected] 22 2006, 02:24 PM
Does that mean that the middle class are not allowed to pursue professions which they find fulfilling just because they are trapped in a capitalist system?
If someone from a petty-bourgeois background wants to become a member of the League, they will have to irreversibly beak with their old class and find a proletarian job that's "fulfilling" and stay in it for a while (usually about 5-10 years).

Miles [/b]
The notion that someone who occupies a middle class position in a capitalist society has to quit a job which they find fulfilling in order to take a prole job so that they can then wait for communism to allow them to fulfill themselves through work is bonkers.

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by CommunistLeague+Apr 23 2006, 04:50 AM--> (CommunistLeague @ Apr 23 2006, 04:50 AM)
England [email protected] 22 2006, 02:24 PM
Does that mean that the middle class are not allowed to pursue professions which they find fulfilling just because they are trapped in a capitalist system?
If someone from a petty-bourgeois background wants to become a member of the League, they will have to irreversibly beak with their old class and find a proletarian job that's "fulfilling" and stay in it for a while (usually about 5-10 years).

Miles [/b]
wait, so if I am not necessarily a proletarian I have to become one? My parents and I were very poor and my dad talks about how NAFTA fucked up his village and people. So Miles, because I am no longer a proletarian, I cant become a CL member?

[JC1]

England, you post makes no sense. All the CL say's is "we are a workin' class only orginization". The CL is not forcing anyone into its rank's, but it is entitled to decide who it will admit into its rank's.

[RebelDog]

We need all the helpers we can get! If someone wants to join who is not an owner of the means of production then let them in. When the revolution comes it will have the great weight of change the bourgeois revolution had and will contain a great majority. We will get nowhere by saying no to some people because we can't 'classify' them. Its childish. Do I get in? I have aspirations to become a teacher. Will I be middle class? Know your enemies, but also know your friends!

[which doctor]

Anyways, both Engels and Marx were members of the original Communist League.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 02:48 PM
Miles, what makes someone "middle class"? Are you referring to the petty-bourgeois class as "middle class?" Because many people who sell their labor power think of themselves as middle class. I hope you don't go by that phrase alone.
If you look, I'm not the one using "middle class". I use the term "petty bourgeois".

Miles

[England Expects]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 10:37 PM
England, you post makes no sense. All the CL say's is "we are a workin' class only orginization". The CL is not forcing anyone into its rank's, but it is entitled to decide who it will admit into its rank's.
Ha! a cosy little arbitrary group. Like a nation or a religion you mean.

Why are these distinctions so unimportant to marxism yet important to the communist league?

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by England [email protected] 24 2006, 02:24 AM
Why are these distinctions so unimportant to marxism yet important to the communist league?
"Unimportant to marxism"?! No, more like unimportant to the existing "Marxist" organizations that are overwhelmingly composed of and led by the petty bourgeoisie. And, why? Narrow self-interest.

Miles

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 23 2006, 06:46 PM
Anyways, both Engels and Marx were members of the original Communist League.
Yes, and nothing has changed in the last 160 years. :rolleyes:

Miles

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 23 2006, 06:19 PM
We need all the helpers we can get! If someone wants to join who is not an owner of the means of production then let them in. When the revolution comes it will have the great weight of change the bourgeois revolution had and will contain a great majority. We will get nowhere by saying no to some people because we can't 'classify' them. Its childish. Do I get in? I have aspirations to become a teacher. Will I be middle class? Know your enemies, but also know your friends!
You may be willing to call your manager a "comrade", but I am not.

And, no, most teachers are not "middle class" (i.e., petty bourgeois).

Miles

[England Expects]

Originally posted by CommunistLeague+Apr 24 2006, 11:46 AM--> (CommunistLeague @ Apr 24 2006, 11:46 AM)
England [email protected] 24 2006, 02:24 AM
Why are these distinctions so unimportant to marxism yet important to the communist league?
"Unimportant to marxism"?! No, more like unimportant to the existing "Marxist" organizations that are overwhelmingly composed of and led by the petty bourgeoisie. And, why? Narrow self-interest.

Miles [/b]
wtf?

Explain a bit son.

[Noah]

And, why? Narrow self-interest.

Another common generalisation.

My dad is an ex-communist but petty bourgeois. However, the money he makes which is the workers average is sent to Iraq to help his relatives that are being bombed...

I mean oh it's such a bad crime he makes some money selling his craft, so he can feed his family back home so they can eat and have basic rights but by the narrow minded person he's a greedy [email protected]!

Minus the money we send back to Iraq, we have less money than the average wage of 22,000 a year. But oh no we're still evil greedy petty bourgeois capitalists that exploit..

'Self interest that...self interest this' Have you ever heard of actually looking at the world realistically and why many immigrants come here to make some money and become petty bourgeois so they can keep their families at home alive or do you stick to you 100 year + bible..

Stop generalising!

[Abood]

I like the way you think, Noah. (sarcastic)
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the petty bougeious, but seriously, your argument just makes me laugh!


Another common generalisation.Sometimes people need to generalize to make statements. Rarely is something 100% true.


But oh no we're still evil greedy petty bourgeois capitalists that exploit..The fact that petty bourgeious are capitalists is undeniable. A capitalist is anyone who depends on capital in his job - and what can a craftsman do without capital in his business? Doesn't he need money to buy material?


'Self interest that...self interest this'He only said 'self interest' once. You're saying it like he mentioned it 10 times or something.


or do you stick to you 100 year + bible..
The bible is nearly 2000 years old.
Plus, what makes you think Miles is a christian? I really doubt it.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Ah I now see the CL's goal... OPRESS ANYBODY WHO DOESN"T WORK IN A FACTORY!!!!. C'mon! How is there ever going to be a revolution without the support of the people, not just the protaleriat. We need all the help we can get otherwise we are going to be a small nonentity forever.

[Abood]

Ah I now see the CL's goal... OPRESS ANYBODY WHO DOESN"T WORK IN A FACTORY!!!!No. The Communist League believes that if you are a communist, then you shouldn't work in a job that exploits people - 'cause you would be contradicting yourself.


We need all the help we can get otherwise we are going to be a small nonentity forever.True, but you can look at it in different ways.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by England Expects+Apr 24 2006, 02:44 PM--> (England Expects @ Apr 24 2006, 02:44 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 11:46 AM

England [email protected] 24 2006, 02:24 AM
Why are these distinctions so unimportant to marxism yet important to the communist league?
"Unimportant to marxism"?! No, more like unimportant to the existing "Marxist" organizations that are overwhelmingly composed of and led by the petty bourgeoisie. And, why? Narrow self-interest.

Miles
wtf?

Explain a bit son. [/b]
It's self-explanatory, if you're paying attention. Class used to matter in the communist movement -- "workers of the world, unite", and all that. But now, we have a "communist movement" whose leaders and most members are overwhelmingly NOT workers. To continue to emphasize the importance of class in that situation is an obvious theoretical contradiction ... and one that raises too many uncomfortable questions about why they are the leaders and bulk of the members.

Miles

P.S.: Don't patronize me and call me "son". I work for a fucking living.

[YKTMX]

Miles:

Presuming that one day the CL had enough members and finances, would the party employ anyone as a full timer?

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 04:13 PM

And, why? Narrow self-interest.

Another common generalisation.

My dad is an ex-communist but petty bourgeois. However, the money he makes which is the workers average is sent to Iraq to help his relatives that are being bombed...

I mean oh it's such a bad crime he makes some money selling his craft, so he can feed his family back home so they can eat and have basic rights but by the narrow minded person he's a greedy [email protected]!

Minus the money we send back to Iraq, we have less money than the average wage of 22,000 a year. But oh no we're still evil greedy petty bourgeois capitalists that exploit..

'Self interest that...self interest this' Have you ever heard of actually looking at the world realistically and why many immigrants come here to make some money and become petty bourgeois so they can keep their families at home alive or do you stick to you 100 year + bible..

Stop generalising!
You say "stop generalizing". I respond by saying "stop thinking like a bourgeois".

Fact: Classes are generalizations. However, they are generalizations based on material reality -- in this case, relations to the means of production. A worker's generalized relationship to the means of production is what makes them part of a revolutionary class. It's not just that they have "good ideas" that make them a "good person". That kind of idealist garbage has no place in communist politics.

I can appreciate that your family is sending money to your family in Iraq. However, I would disagree with your implication that Iraqis have to become petty bourgeois to do this. I know and work with a good number of Iraqis here where I live, and they are autoworkers, steelworkers, railroad workers, truck drivers, package delivery workers, etc., and they send money to Iraq too. Class matters, no matter who you are and where you are.

Miles

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 05:08 PM
Ah I now see the CL's goal... OPRESS ANYBODY WHO DOESN"T WORK IN A FACTORY!!!!. C'mon! How is there ever going to be a revolution without the support of the people, not just the protaleriat. We need all the help we can get otherwise we are going to be a small nonentity forever.
Calm down, kid. The working class is the majority class -- in industrialized countries, 60-70 percent of the population; in developing countries (including landless peasants, which are actually agricultural workers), 50-80 percent. Working people are "the people". Period.

And we don't need any help from the people who exploit us. With "friends" like those,...

Miles

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 06:30 PM
Presuming that one day the CL had enough members and finances, would the party employ anyone as a full timer?
We haven't really talked about it as an organization, but I would be in favor of establishing some kind of staff positions, as long as the people in the positions were rotated regularly, no one served in the position more than a year or two, and then had to wait at least 10 years to do it again.

Miles

[England Expects]

What kind of a name is "Miles" anyway.

Did you acquire this name for use on the web or is it your real name.

I'm not class conscious when it comes to names but is "Miles" a posh name?

[YKTMX]

EE:

I think you'll find that Miles tends to be a more common name in America.

Anyway, to the point.


but I would be in favor of establishing some kind of staff positions, as long as the people in the positions were rotated regularly

Knowing as you do about the various vicissitudes of working class existence, how would it be possible for a worker to "take a year or two off" from their work to work full-time for the party?

I don't see this could have practical application in an organisations such as yours.


no one served in the position more than a year or two

Why?

Presumably you don't think someone can accrue special status by sitting in a office licking stamps for a year.

[which doctor]

I'm pretty sure his last name is Miles, not his first.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by YouKnowTheyMurderedX+Apr 24 2006, 06:51 PM--> (YouKnowTheyMurderedX @ Apr 24 2006, 06:51 PM)Knowing as you do about the various vicissitudes of working class existence, how would it be possible for a worker to "take a year or two off" from their work to work full-time? I don't see this could have practical application in an organisations such as yours.[/b]

First, bear in mind that this is a personal view, not a League view. Second, I did say that it hasn't really been talked through. Third, I would figure that if the League has the membership and finances to afford a full-time organizer, there would be younger comrades who are working shit jobs and want to acquire some skills that will take him or her beyond where they are.


[email protected] 24 2006, 06:51 PM
Why? Presumably you don't think someone can accrue special status by sitting in a office licking stamps for a year.

No. That's not the point. Having a comrade act in a full-time position would give them organizing skills they can use when they're done with their "tour of duty". It makes sure that, if something does happen to those who are in those positions at a given time (e.g., government raid), there are capable comrades who can pick up and keep moving.

Also, any comrade doing this kind of work would be acquiring advanced skills in computer work, writing, organization and time management, as well as having the opportunity to learn other types of skills (electrical, plumbing, heavy equipment operation, etc.) from members who live around the location of the Center.

They would also, of course, have a lot of political discussions and opportunities at political development.

Miles

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 24 2006, 06:59 PM
I'm pretty sure his last name is Miles, not his first.
Yes. My name is Henry Miles. But I go by "Miles" as a habit.

Miles

[Noah]

Sometimes people need to generalize to make statements. Rarely is something 100% true

It's not good enough though. You can't just make such generalisations, were not living 150 years back.

Doctors, engineers and other proffessionals get paid more than my dad but they're working class.

My dad does 15 hours a day 7 days a week and the only holiday he get's are christmas and bank holidays.

My dad works like a donkey to feed people so have some respect.


The fact that petty bourgeious are capitalists is undeniable.

:lol:

And you know this how?


A capitalist is anyone who depends on capital in his job - and what can a craftsman do without capital in his business? Doesn't he need money to buy material?

In that case, take your clothes and through them out of the window...Take all your relatives' jewellery and throw it in the sea.

Do you not realise we live in a capitalist system, do you expect immigrants already traumatic from years of persecution and war to fight the system?


He only said 'self interest' once. You're saying it like he mentioned it 10 times or something.

I was infact portraying the narrow minded and unrealistic view.



The bible is nearly 2000 years old.
Plus, what makes you think Miles is a christian? I really doubt it.


Ok...well I was using sarcasm or symbolism or something...obviously it's not caught on.


. I know and work with a good number of Iraqis here where I live, and they are autoworkers, steelworkers, railroad workers, truck drivers, package delivery workers, etc., and they send money to Iraq too.

It all depends on how much they send.

If you take into mind that healthcare isn't free if you want it proper in/even out of Iraq.

We've got 2 people with heart problems, an aunty and a cousin with dying lungs, a grandad with prostate cancer, a blind grandmother and then they've got to survive and these have children...and he's got a family here..

He worked us way out of the working class as he recognised the capital he was receiving would only allow him one choice; to abandon his family in Iraq but obviously he would not do that.


Class matters, no matter who you are and where you are

Of course it matters. And yes the majority of capitalists wouldn't support the left.

But you must realise, sometimes people have no choice, if they've got the lives (not just one, sometimes 20 +) of other people on their shoulders.

[LoneRed]

Firstly I dont understand the guff over Miles name? oh well, some people just have to grasp at straws

Also, i cant figure out what seems to be the problem with a working class party, only working class, the petty-bourgeois FUCKS things up, look at such groups without an exclusion policy, where are they? nowhere. what are they doing? Jack shit.

It is needed to excluse the petty-bourgeois rats, they can usurp your parties, but we WONT let that happen.


Rick

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 12:51 PM

Class matters, no matter who you are and where you are

Of course it matters. And yes the majority of capitalists wouldn't support the left.

But you must realise, sometimes people have no choice, if they've got the lives (not just one, sometimes 20 +) of other people on their shoulders.
Look, I can understand the extraordinary situation your family is in. It must be nice to be able to do what your father did, and I can understand his motivations for doing it. All I am saying is that he didn't necessarily have to jump classes to do it (some of the people I know, based on what I know about their jobs and their living standards, send several hundred to several thousand dollars home each month).

People should also bear in mind that, while non-proletarians may not be able to join the League, that doesn't mean we won't work with non-proletarians when and where we can.

Miles

[chimx]

http://www.anarchismus.at/bilder/kropotkin.jpg

"shit"

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 01:59 PM
http://www.anarchismus.at/bilder/kropotkin.jpg

"shit"
Yes, he is. :lol:

Miles

[Noah]

All I am saying is that he didn't necessarily have to jump classes to do it (some of the people I know, based on what I know about their jobs and their living standards, send several hundred to several thousand dollars home each month).


Did it never occur to you that some people don't get these working opportunities?

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 04:07 PM

All I am saying is that he didn't necessarily have to jump classes to do it (some of the people I know, based on what I know about their jobs and their living standards, send several hundred to several thousand dollars home each month).


Did it never occur to you that some people don't get these working opportunities?
OK, let me see if I understand the background here: Your father, who left Iraq (I'm guessing for political reasons initially), was faced with having to economically support family members still in the country. So, he went to college and became a professional -- a petty bourgeois. Is this correct?

Miles

[Noah]

No he never went to college..He was brought up a craftsmen, while he was at school, so he started his own business with a little money he was able to save up.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 04:31 PM
No he never went to college..He was brought up a craftsmen, while he was at school, so he started his own business with a little money he was able to save up.
OK, now I'm just curious. What's his craft?

Miles

[Noah]

He's a jeweller/goldsmith.