the BNP

[Global_Justice]

holy shit they might win alot of seats in the local elections on 4th of may :o

people just don't know how vile they are. people who are concerned about immigration are being tricked into supporting a fascist, white supremist party because 1) they don't fully know there policies and 2) the main 3 parties are more interested in trying to win over "swing" voters in places that are close between labour and tories so aren't listening to people over immigration in areas like the midlands and east london. barking and dagenham has been a labour stronghold since the dawn of time, 8 out of 10 people are considering voting BNP, despite the fact most of them are pretty left wing, coz they feel they have no choice. labour is more interested in the middle class vote than the working class vote because they have taken it for granted and it's gonna bite them in the arse.

[drain.you]

yeah the BNP is taking over, slowly but surely gaining seats. They are gaining lots of the working class that are turning away from Labour and its quite scary. I know Labour isn't good but I'd prefer to be under a labour government than a BNP obviously and i'm quite glad I'm in a labour 'safe-seat 'constituency.

[Orange Juche]

BNP... is this party similar to the one in France which was sickly-nationalistic and the candidate almost won for President? (Basically, just a British version?)

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 12:34 AM
BNP... is this party similar to the one in France which was sickly-nationalistic and the candidate almost won for President? (Basically, just a British version?)
yep, one of their members David copeland bombed a London gay bar back in 1999 where 2 people died.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/s...000/2499249.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/30/newsid_2499000/2499249.stm)

BTW doesnt this thread belong in anti fascism?

[Nicky Scarfo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 12:34 AM
BNP... is this party similar to the one in France which was sickly-nationalistic and the candidate almost won for President? (Basically, just a British version?)
No, the BNP is even worse. The BNP has a long history of ties with the Neo-Nazi and White Nationalist movement. The FN are nasty right-wing extremists too, don't get me wrong, but it's my sense that there are a lot more Neo-Nazi and skinhead thug elements amongst the BNP than the FN. Le Pen impresses me more as a slightly more extreme and reckless version of America's Pat Buchanan (home grown anti-immigrant racism and ultranationalism, with some mild Nazi sympathies), while the BNP leadership impresses me as a bunch of Aryan Brotherhood-types who decided to dress up in suits and tone down the rhetoric and open neo-Nazi allegiances for PR's sake. Of course, I could be wrong on that one.


BTW doesnt this thread belong in anti fascism?

That's kinda a narrow forum. If the BNP weren't on the way to racking up election victories I'd think it'd belong there, but seein how they are I think it qualifies for the broader "Politics" forum. Then again, I'm just a FNG, so it's not like what I say matters on that subject.

[BobKKKindle$]

In some ways, we should actually be happy when people vote for any non-mainstream party, even if it is a fascist party. This is because it demonstrates that some people are aware that mainstream political parties such as the conservatives and liberals are so similair in their views and so lacking in real principle that the only solution is to turn to more radical political measures. If people will vote fascism, then they could vote communist as well.

[Global_Justice]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+Apr 20 2006, 01:31 AM--> (Ulster Socialist @ Apr 20 2006, 01:31 AM)
[email protected] 20 2006, 12:34 AM
BNP... is this party similar to the one in France which was sickly-nationalistic and the candidate almost won for President? (Basically, just a British version?)
yep, one of their members David copeland bombed a London gay bar back in 1999 where 2 people died.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/s...000/2499249.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/30/newsid_2499000/2499249.stm)

BTW doesnt this thread belong in anti fascism? [/b]
no it's a political party rather than a nazi group so i thought it would qualify for politics, antifascist board is weak.

[patrickbeverley]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 04:42 AM
In some ways, we should actually be happy when people vote for any non-mainstream party, even if it is a fascist party. This is because it demonstrates that some people are aware that mainstream political parties such as the conservatives and liberals are so similair in their views and so lacking in real principle that the only solution is to turn to more radical political measures. If people will vote fascism, then they could vote communist as well.
Statements like this one are so wrong they make me want to cry. Support for racist, homophobic, right-wing parties is never good, even if they are "non-mainstream". Why would people go from voting for a party that opposes everything communism stands for to voting communist? It makes no sense.

I swear to you, the day somebody points a gun at my head and tells me to vote for the BNP will be the day I die. Anything is preferable to those bastards.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

The media and stupid Cabinet Ministers like Margaret Hodge give far-Right parties far too much publicity. This dupes the general public into believing that the far-right is the only alternative to the mainstream parties.

[Vanguard1917]

people just don't know how vile they are. people who are concerned about immigration are being tricked into supporting a fascist, white supremist party

People are not being 'tricked'. People who vote for the BNP do so, largely, as a 'protest vote' against the mainstream parties, who are increasingly cut-off from the electorate. But it is not a vote for 'fascism'. It is as much a vote for fascism as votes for SWP's Respect Coalition are a vote for socialism. There is no left-right struggle in British politics at the moment.


they don't fully know there policies

The BNP essentially stands on a single-issue platform (i.e. anti-immigration), as do the other emerging small parties: such as Respect (anti-war), UKIP (anti-EU), and the Greens (environment).

(The mainstream parties of government are detached from voters and the electorate is more and more fragmented - which reflects the increasingly fragmented, atomised and alienated state of the public.)

It would be inaccurate to argue that the BNP is trying to sneak fascist policies through the back door. The BNP today is not the BNP of the past. Their watered-down politics reflects real life changes in society. The conditions necessary for the rise of fascism do not currently exist. People who vote for the BNP know exactly what they are voting for - an anti-immigration party. The BNP gains its support due to the detached state of the mainstream parties from the electorate and due to mainstream anti-immigration policies and propaganda.

The BNP is largely irrelevant to society. The left should focus on real, actual problems confronting the working class movement today. It shouldn't fabricate a 'fascist threat' that doesn't exist. It says a lot about the state of leftwing politics today when we start conjuring up enemies just so that we can have something to rally against.

[Amusing Scrotum]

I've gotta' say, Vanguard1917 hit the proverbial nail on the head with this one I think....


Originally posted by Vanguard1917
It would be inaccurate to argue that the BNP is trying to sneak fascist policies through the back door. The BNP today is not the BNP of the past. Their watered-down politics reflects real life changes in society. The conditions necessary for the rise of fascism do not currently exist.

Whilst the BNP does have links to the Neo-Nazi movement and therefore should be treated as a fascist party by anti-fa et al. It really has been drifting "leftwards" for a while now.

The Griffin cabal, seem more interested in gaining seats than anything else and therefore they've toned down quite a bit....whether this is just a pretence, I don't know.

But every know and then I take a wonder over to stormfront to look at the British section....and during my last two visits, I noticed that a lot of the Neo-Nazis there are becoming pissed off with the BNP.

They're not talking about "the Jews" anymore....and they even have a Jewish BNP Councillor! :o

And from what I can tell, from browsing over threads in the stormfront forum, and from some stuff written by some really experienced anti-fascists, is that some of the Neo-Nazis are becoming disillusioned by the BNP.

I mean the BNP isn't setting up a fighting division, as far as I know, in order to "win the streets" and Griffin has also toned down a lot of their other stuff....so I wouldn't be surprised if they evolved into another UKIP/Veritas/Conservative Right type Party.

Additionally, the bourgeois don't seem to have any interest in the BNP at the present time....so I don't think the bourgeois is about to back them for power.

My bet, based on some recent rumours about funny accounting in the BNP, is that we're going to see the BNP's finances investigated soon....and that will probably lead to the downfall of the Party.

So I don't think Britain's likely to "go fascist" any time soon....though that doesn't mean that anti-fascist groups should stop targeting the BNP.

Indeed, if anti-fascists groups successfully manage to target the BNP, then the BNP will have two options; (1) move more into the mainstream in order to avoid being targeted by anti-fascist groups which will lead then to the Neo-Nazi section leaving; or (2) move more to the right and set up a "fighting division" to "win the streets" which will likely lead to them losing their support base within the general public.

I think option 1 is the more likely....in which case I'd say that the November 9th Society (N9S) are going to be the main representatives of fascism in Britain in the future.

Their "leader", Kevin Quinn (an ugly bald sod!), already seems reasonably popular withing the British Neo-Nazi right....unlike Griffin who's seen as a "sell-out", Quinn is seen as "old-school" from what I can tell.

Basically, I'd say this election represents a crossroads with regards the BNP's development....their either going to become a mainstream right-wing party, or resurrect Hitler.

I think the temptation of getting their fat arses into Parliament will lead to the former....but, I could be wrong.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Someone over at libcom made a pretty interesting post on the subject of why this story is getting so much attention....

http://www.libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=120803#120803

As theories go, that one ain&#39;t bad. <_<

[bolshevik butcher]

I would say the BNP are a much bigger threat to the British working class than any of the real nazis or white supremicists just now. The BNP campaigns on a &#39;softer&#39; line and focuses on supposed &#39;issues&#39; such as immigration. They do well in playing the populist card and appealing on issues that are trumped up by tabvloid newspapers.

[Global_Justice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 03:11 PM

people just don&#39;t know how vile they are. people who are concerned about immigration are being tricked into supporting a fascist, white supremist party

People are not being &#39;tricked&#39;. People who vote for the BNP do so, largely, as a &#39;protest vote&#39; against the mainstream parties, who are increasingly cut-off from the electorate. But it is not a vote for &#39;fascism&#39;. It is as much a vote for fascism as votes for SWP&#39;s Respect Coalition are a vote for socialism. There is no left-right struggle in British politics at the moment.


they don&#39;t fully know there policies

The BNP essentially stands on a single-issue platform (i.e. anti-immigration), as do the other emerging small parties: such as Respect (anti-war), UKIP (anti-EU), and the Greens (environment).

(The mainstream parties of government are detached from voters and the electorate is more and more fragmented - which reflects the increasingly fragmented, atomised and alienated state of the public.)

It would be inaccurate to argue that the BNP is trying to sneak fascist policies through the back door. The BNP today is not the BNP of the past. Their watered-down politics reflects real life changes in society. The conditions necessary for the rise of fascism do not currently exist. People who vote for the BNP know exactly what they are voting for - an anti-immigration party. The BNP gains its support due to the detached state of the mainstream parties from the electorate and due to mainstream anti-immigration policies and propaganda.

The BNP is largely irrelevant to society. The left should focus on real, actual problems confronting the working class movement today. It shouldn&#39;t fabricate a &#39;fascist threat&#39; that doesn&#39;t exist. It says a lot about the state of leftwing politics today when we start conjuring up enemies just so that we can have something to rally against.

People who vote for the BNP know exactly what they are voting for - an anti-immigration party

what i meant was the don&#39;t necasarily know how extreme the BNP are. someone may be annoyed at illegal immigrants for example, so would vote for the BNP, not knowing that the BNP are not just anti illegal immigrants, but are blatent white supremists and would close borders and repatriate immigrants and their descendants and set up concentration camps etc.

[armedpoet]

To quote Popagandhi,"the only good fascist is a very dead fascist."

If you know your British history you should know that the BNP should never be underestimated. There is no such thing as a fascist moving leftwards. They are opportunist cowards who will say anything to get in power. Don&#39;t forget that Hitler was apparently a "socialist" who stood for the working class...

Good luck to all the antifa in the UK.

FIGHT DEM BACK&#33;

[Dreckt]

I don&#39;t think anyone should worry about Britain becoming a fascist state. Just look at their arguments, they want to exist the EU and nationalize most of the industry. The capitalists will simply not let this happen - they will loose their power to these fanatics.

The way I see it the great parties will let the BNP win as long as they don&#39;t disturb the capitalists plans. Brawls on the streets are accepted - it won&#39;t change the politics in Britain. But when they do get some serious votes, then some members will probably disappear, economic and sexual scandals, probably plans of a new holocaust will be found, and so on...

[Hit The North]

Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 20 2006, 02:39 PM
The media and stupid Cabinet Ministers like Margaret Hodge give far-Right parties far too much publicity. This dupes the general public into believing that the far-right is the only alternative to the mainstream parties.
Are the general public being duped? If (and its a big if) a significant proportion of the disillusioned working class vote goes to the BNP, it&#39;ll just be symptomatic of the failure of British socialists to bury their sectarian differences and create an electoral poll of attraction to the left of NL&#39;s free-market policies.

I don&#39;t see a coherent and cohesive socialist alternative out there. So where can workers who are bitter with being shat on by a pro-capitalist Labour Party go?

[armedpoet]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 10:15 PM
I don&#39;t think anyone should worry about Britain becoming a fascist state....... Brawls on the streets are accepted - it won&#39;t change the politics in Britain.
I think we should always worry about the prospect of fascism, no matter how unlikely it seems.

Besides haven&#39;t you read/seen V for Vendetta? ;)

To think that the fascists (or any mobilized political group) do not change politics in Britain (or anywhere) is rather naive.

It is undeniable that a successful BNP will shift the political spectrum even more to the right. The neo-liberals will not openly support them but they&#39;ll love every moment of it.

It is easier for Capitalism to employ fascist tactic if the people are already exposed to it. For example, you would find that the BNP will come out saying that there is a problem with immigration, this would be followed by the Labour party&#39;s denunciation of the BNP on the grounds that they were racists (very true) and then by a strengthening of border control. After all to be a successful politician you must be an opportunist and a populist.


So where can workers who are bitter with being shat on by a pro-capitalist Labour Party go?

To the streets.

Parliament will never bring about anything more than minor social reform. To expect anything more from a so called &#39;democracy&#39; is foolish.

[Angry Young Man]

Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 20 2006, 02:39 PM
The media and stupid Cabinet Ministers like Margaret Hodge give far-Right parties far too much publicity. This dupes the general public into believing that the far-right is the only alternative to the mainstream parties.
It seems to be a European right wing tradition, does villyifying the far-left moreso than the far right. Look, for example, at Weimar Germany: 1919 Rosa Luxemburg initiates a revolt and the Government sends former army veterans to kill them; They themselves try a rightwing coup d&#39;etat, and get off scot free&#33; Then, after the Wall St Crash, the economic situation in Germany gets worse, and the Bourgeois are shitting themselves that there&#39;g going to be a proletarian revolution, so they ask Hindemburg to instal Hitler.
There&#39;s an interesting question: if Germany went left, would there still have been a war?
And why wasn&#39;t there a revolution in Britain in 26?

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 10:53 AM
There&#39;s an interesting question: if Germany went left, would there still have been a war?
And why wasn&#39;t there a revolution in Britain in 26?
I don&#39;t think there would&#39;ve been a war because WWII was caused partly by the nationalistic aggression of Hitler. There would not have been threat to the United States and the United Kingdom - just the ruling class in those countries. There would have been less excuse for the US to declare war on a communist Germany than there was for them to declare war on Iraq.

As for your second question: Britain was a fairly stable "democracy" in 1926 unlike Russia in 1917 and the majority may have been content with the system if not the government.

[Angry Young Man]

Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 21 2006, 10:47 AM
As for your second question: Britain was a fairly stable "democracy" in 1926 unlike Russia in 1917 and the majority may have been content with the system if not the government.
Do the dates 3rd-12th of May of that year ring a bell?

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by chairmanmick+Apr 21 2006, 02:28 PM--> (chairmanmick @ Apr 21 2006, 02:28 PM)
Sir Aunty [email protected] 21 2006, 10:47 AM
As for your second question: Britain was a fairly stable "democracy" in 1926 unlike Russia in 1917 and the majority may have been content with the system if not the government.
Do the dates 3rd-12th of May of that year ring a bell? [/b]
Of course.

Admittedly, I&#39;m fairly ignorant about the 1926 General Strike and that&#39;s why I spouted all that guff about being content with the system but then I read this article (http://www.marxist.com/History/british_gen_strike_1926.html) and realised it was yet another example of a combination of TUC cowerdice and a Tory goverment which prevented a revolution that year.

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by Sir Aunty Christ+Apr 21 2006, 02:28 PM--> (Sir Aunty Christ @ Apr 21 2006, 02:28 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 02:28 PM

Sir Aunty [email protected] 21 2006, 10:47 AM
As for your second question: Britain was a fairly stable "democracy" in 1926 unlike Russia in 1917 and the majority may have been content with the system if not the government.
Do the dates 3rd-12th of May of that year ring a bell?
Of course.

Admittedly, I&#39;m fairly ignorant about the 1926 General Strike and that&#39;s why I spouted all that guff about being content with the system but then I read this article (http://www.marxist.com/History/british_gen_strike_1926.html) and realised it was yet another example of a combination of TUC cowerdice and a Tory goverment which prevented a revolution that year. [/b]
Well, no point in wishing it had happened. That was in 1926, and things are a lot different nowadays. Plus, any communist revolution would just have put us in the hands of the Soviets and the revolution would have died in the lat 80&#39;s along with all of the other supposedly "communist" countries.

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by Citizen [email protected] 21 2006, 12:23 AM
I don&#39;t see a coherent and cohesive socialist alternative out there. So where can workers who are bitter with being shat on by a pro-capitalist Labour Party go?
What about the Independent Working Class Association? (http://www.iwca.info/) They seem to be doing a lot of good work, though they&#39;re limited to certain areas.

[England Expects]

Where is the socialist alternative in the seats where the BNP is making gains?

[McLeft]

I really don&#39;t understand why they&#39;re not banned. I mean it should be illegal in Britain to elect fascist representatives to power or any type of position, be it for Parliament or local government, This is humiliating. :angry:

[patrickbeverley]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 07:42 PM
I really don&#39;t understand why they&#39;re not banned.
While it would be no bad thing for there not to be a BNP (in fact it would be a wonderful thing), in whose hands would the responsibility of banning them be? I would be deeply suspicious of any provision allowing a political party to be banned, because then others could be banned and it could lead to precisely what it&#39;s intended to stop.

[encephalon]

Last night I talked to a British guy who was visiting in the states, and he&#39;s from a BNP "stronghold." He&#39;s not nearly as far left as most of us, but he seemed rather disturbed by the whole deal as well. That, and he suggested that the BNP and tories should just join into one party :P

[McLeft]

While it would be no bad thing for there not to be a BNP (in fact it would be a wonderful thing), in whose hands would the responsibility of banning them be? I would be deeply suspicious of any provision allowing a political party to be banned, because then others could be banned and it could lead to precisely what it&#39;s intended to stop.

Well it could be made unconstitutionally illegal to ban them on the grounds that they resemble Hitler&#39;s Nazies, that&#39;s enough to get them banned.