Scary thought

[Dyst]

I don't know if this will categorize as Nihilism, I guess it will. But when I thought of it I didn't even consider it, as I was terrified of what it actually meant and that I could think like that.

I assume that there is nothing after death. With that in mind I do not fear death, because I will not be around to feel it. You sort of become eternally non-existant yet everything at the same time (I see nothing as the same as everything).

It is this thought that led me into some other ideas. You could say they are egoistical.

It's basicly that nothing matters because you are going to die anyways, and when you die you are dissolved as a concious.

At first I thought like this: That would mean it would be "justified" of me to steal and rape when I get older, cus I would soon dissapear completely as a mind. All in all, nothing matters, why not do whatever pleases you?

I thought that you have the right to be 100% egoistical, because after you are dead, all considerations you have to deal with while alive are gone and none of your concern. You do not exist, neither does anything else, to you, then. So ultimately, the only thing that matters at all is your own fullfillment of your desires while you are alive.

Then I remembered that all I know is life. Other people exist now. While I am alive, other people matter, for me.

What are your thoughts?

[drain.you]

Yeah I've had the same thoughts in the past.
I came down on the way of thinknig that I want others to be happy. I want to work towards a world where everyone can be equal and such and I don't wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone is entirely selfish. People are selfish enough as it is and its not nice.
Truth is, that if nothing happens after death then theres no reason why we shouldnt be 100% egoistical and thats why laws and religion exist to get people to act in a manner that isnt egoistical so that they benefits others whether it be benefitting the capitalist elite or whatever.
Remember humans are social creatures and if we were all 100% selfish then we wouldnt have any friends or anything. We wouldn't be able to exist in society. Society is a give and take scenario, you can't just take otherwise you will be told to bugger off.
I dunno. People need to be happy but people can find happiness in ways which doesnt negatively affect others, such as playing music or sport, working towards a better world and many other things. Stealing and rape tends to only benefit a few, you should aim to benefit as many as possible with every action you make. Its just a fair and harmonious way to live.

[Decolonize The Left]

Keiza:

I assume that there is nothing after death. With that in mind I do not fear death, because I will not be around to feel it. You sort of become eternally non-existant yet everything at the same time (I see nothing as the same as everything).

Indeed. Another way to look at it, if one considers the mind and body to at least have different properties, is that your pysical body returns to everything (i.e. the Earth/universe), while your mind returns to nothing.


It's basicly that nothing matters because you are going to die anyways, and when you die you are dissolved as a concious.

Depends what you qualify as "matters"...
I'd say that lots of things matter in life (this isn't to say they matter in death - they don't). Injustice, starvation, war, torture, rape - all these things are bad, as in they do not comply with my moral code of right and wrong. If one considers life the only time one has to live and enjoy the interaction between people, one should always do the right thing. This way, you can die comfortably knowing you did all you could to help others. If one chooses to go with desire, and rape, steal, etc... I would imagine one's death being filled with regret and pain (as in the moments before death). That would be a tough way to go.

-- August

[bretty]

“Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist.” - Epicurus

[Sacha]

Life isn't just a means to an end. Your actions won't matter when you die, but as a result of your actions when you are alive, you may hinder yourself from actually achieving your desires. Then you will disolve your consciousness without fulfilling your purpose in life (fulfilling your desires). This makes your existance pointless and makes people who do achieve their goals worth so much more - this creates a heirarchy of values. So even with no afterlife, we will still ultimately have the drive to act according to our environments standards to fulfill our desires.

With or without afterlife, we will still have ultimately the same existance on earth - wheither we are fulfilling the desires of before or after death.

[Fistful of Steel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 05:27 AM
Life isn't just a means to an end. Your actions won't matter when you die, but as a result of your actions when you are alive, you may hinder yourself from actually achieving your desires. Then you will disolve your consciousness without fulfilling your purpose in life (fulfilling your desires). This makes your existance pointless and makes people who do achieve their goals worth so much more - this creates a heirarchy of values. So even with no afterlife, we will still ultimately have the drive to act according to our environments standards to fulfill our desires.

With or without afterlife, we will still have ultimately the same existance on earth - wheither we are fulfilling the desires of before or after death.
What does it matter if we achieve our desires or not? If we don't we may be bitter we wasted a life near the end, but then we'll die and we can't have any regrets at all. And any contributions we make to the world, some people will enjoy and appreciate them but eventually they'll die and eventually their ancestors will die and eventually all life will be extinguished one way or another. If that's the case if a person accomplishes something, or if a person does nothing and regrets everything they've done, they'll both end up in the same spot as nothing being nothing, with no memory of good or bad and nothing done.

[Sacha]

That is not true - there are many people who are immortal now through written word, speech, music, recordings of all sorts. Elvis, Hitler, George W Bush, Shakespeare.

As long as there is a trace in this world of their existance, they will always exist.

[Fistful of Steel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 05:47 AM
That is not true - there are many people who are immortal now through written word, speech, music, recordings of all sorts. Elvis, Hitler, George W Bush, Shakespeare.

As long as there is a trace in this world of their existance, they will always exist.
We remember them now but eventually they'll be forgotten, eventually everyone is going to die, and eventually the universe will end in a big rip or gravitate towards itself 'til it collapses in upon itself. The world itself will cease to be as we know it. What does it matter then?

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 05:47 AM
That is not true - there are many people who are immortal now through written word, speech, music, recordings of all sorts. Elvis, Hitler, George W Bush, Shakespeare.

As long as there is a trace in this world of their existance, they will always exist.
That's poetic bullshit. I don't see Shakespeare going for a drink or watching the match.

[Dyst]

That is not true - there are many people who are immortal now through written word, speech, music, recordings of all sorts. Elvis, Hitler, George W Bush, Shakespeare.

As long as there is a trace in this world of their existance, they will always exist.

They exist as concepts for us, but not for themselves.

They are not immortal, because they are dead and no longer a conciousness. Whatever great they did in life is no longer of any importance whatsoever, for them.

That's why it is a scary thought, since it makes everything pointless. You might as well commit suicide.

Until someone throws a bucket with water into your face and you realize that this is life; Do what is necessary to make things good for you and those whoever you feel committed to help. You know that they will exist no matter if you are dead or not, and all in all, this life is all that matters.

[drain.you]

Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist.
Thats a great quote :)

[Ol' Dirty]

I really don't see a point in worrying about death, of what comes after, because I know that there's no way for me to avoid it. I might as well live life to its fullest

[Olly1990]

Yet I agree with the fact that you have to live life to the fullest, I do feel that our lives are based on basic human morals that have their roots in the comfort and well being of human beings. For example, morally it is wrong to hurt someone for entertainment etc because that would affect the well being of your mental health and the victims Physical (and probably mental) health. We have to live life to the full because we do not know how death may affect us (will we have a mental state of mind? etc) but we also have a conscience and a built in awareness of other humans and this awareness protects us from destroying our friends, family etc through our own over indulgence and ignorance of human suffering. :unsure:

Yet I do not fully believe in karma, the idea that anything we have done to others will come back to us is rather a sobering thought when thinking about actions you may take in your life. :blink:

[RaiseYourVoice]

After death it wont matter, so what?

we life now and if there is nothing after death, than it doesnt matter does it? We live now to fullfill our lives here on this planet. If we are selfish we destory other lives, in the end it wont matter but right now it does and thats the important point. if you say there are no consequences for your actions and thats why you can be selfish, than you are already selfish but not living it out due to societys laws and restrictions.

You can turn that example around though, if nothing matters in the end you can also fight for the revolution and get shot because of it. so you can sacrifice your life, which would again give your life a purpose

[apathy maybe]

We should act how we want others to act towards us (Golden Rule anyone?). While this is not a perfect rule, (sadists are masochists that follow the golden rule), it does give direction for our actions.

Basically while we shall all die, while we are alive we should enjoy it and look after those whom we care about. Hopefully that includes more then just immediates (people around you).

Follow what you believe, I doubt that you are really going to turn into a scum sucking corporate rapist.

[Olly1990]

I agree, A.M, We need to get through life with people we care about, not be completely selfish because that will not give you any satisfaction through life if you are bound to yourself. Just make sure that the things you do give you deep, fulfilling satisfaction rather than a shallow quick fix! If life is meaning less then you can, in theory, not worry about actions that you take but would you rather be able to do positive, life changing actions or negative, life destroying actions? :huh:

[Disciple of Prometheus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 08:58 PM
It's basicly that nothing matters because you are going to die anyways, and when you die you are dissolved as a concious.


Life has no meaning at all. None. The only meaning that it could have is what you the individual give it. Which isn't to say "why bother," it would imply if your life has substance there is no reason to fear death, if nothing matters to you then your life lacks substance, and you begin to fear death.

[Dyst]

Originally posted by Disciple of [email protected] 26 2006, 04:22 AM
Life has no meaning at all. None. The only meaning that it could have is what you the individual give it. Which isn't to say "why bother," it would imply if your life has substance there is no reason to fear death, if nothing matters to you then your life lacks substance, and you begin to fear death.
You may be right, but this is not the main point.

When you "dissolve as a conscious" (die) everything disappears and nothing is anymore, you won't be able to think. It's quite hard to imagine.

But my point is that since everything stops then, there is no point in living at all. Even if you live life "at its fullest", you could as well take suicide right now. Note that I am only assuming what will happen after death (obviously) and ain't promoting anyone to actually commit suicie.

Imagine this:

You got one hour. You know that after this hour, you will be locked into a cave where you will fall asleep for eternity. You will not dream about anything, you will simply be unconscious. And no one can reach you.

Does it matter how you spend the hour?

[7189]

Would you rather spend that hour enjoying yourself, or sitting around waiting to die?

I assume you would choose the former, as I would.

But what is enjoyment?

You say self-fulfilment...fair enough.

Take away the cave. What if pure self-fulfilment, at the end of the day, isn't so fulfilling? If you go round doing what you want without consideration to others, you will suffer. You will be punished if you kill someone, obviously. This will reduce your enjoyment no doubt, especially when you are in your prison cell looking at the towering figure of a seriously chunky 6 foot 5 nutcase who is clearly aroused.

Take away the laws.

Say you are a despotic Prince. No-one in the land has the gall to question you. You can kill, rape, manipulate and harm anyone and anything you desire. This is the ideal situation for self fulfilment no doubt. But, pursuing such a life, if you have any moral fibre in you, would eventually take its toll, and you will suffer, through guilt, shame, regret, et cetera.

If you would enjoy pursuing such a life without any reservations, then you are clearly mentally deranged and I am worried that someone like you exists on this planet, and I would advise changing your personality, either through will power or psychiatric assistance.

Self-fulfiment does not necessarily mean self-centred, self-obsessed, careless, egotistical, and frankly stupid behaviour. It depends. For some it may, but for others it may entail more 'angelic' qualities, like kindness, charity, love, constructiveness. Others may have a combination of the two.

For many their ideas of true self-fulfilment will never be put into practice. Why? because it's impractical. Humans are generally rather pragmatic, through conformation, conditioning, or just pure nature. Those few who aren't, are nutters, and unless extremely intelligent, will never see their aims fulfilled.

The issue here is not death, but life. Life in society is a pre-natally forged path if you will. It is not the fear of the after-life any longer which worries people, it is the fear of the social repercussions. People adapt. Self fulfilment is impractical.

If you beg to differ, let me ask you, how many true anarchists or nihilists do you know, and if so, how many are fulfilling their epicurean fantasies?

The answer, I am quite certain, is...'none'.

[Dreckt]

But the same logic could be applied to what we fight for. Since the universe is going to end someday, either by tearing itself apart, imploding or all stars running out of fuel, then why even try to fight for communism? It won't last forever.

We humans have developed in a, what one would call, "good way". We are, by nature, a lazy but very social creature. All creatures on our planet is evolved into reproducing themselves, and so are humans. Because of our intelligence evolved, we as humans also evolved ways to socialize. We developed feelings, that over time became stronger (and still is developing). Cavemen probably grunted to one another, making a family took a day or so.

Today, we have to talk, be nice, say the right things, take the partner out for cofee or a movie. People sing about their emotions, whole albums are created, all based on our extremely developed feelings. Creating a family is along and tough process, and not everyone succeeds.

I believe that our "wanting" to be with other people is a genetic thing. By being with people, out chances of reproduction increases compared to living alone away from everybody else. Hell, people who are alergic to electronics who has to live in the forrest without any electronics at all would rather die than live like that.

Which leads to the question. By doing whatever we want to do as induviduals we eventually (or from the beginning) harm other people, which is a negative influence on our feelings and a very bad reproduction strategy.

This is one of the many things why communism simply is "The Ideal" society for humans to live in.

[EwokUtopia]

I believe that all humans share a common existance, and we all have the same essence in us. You could call it a soul, but I would rather not give it a name. In this common essence we will live on as long as anything lives on, and every moment eternally exists (where does the time go? surely somewhere. I believe that Past Present and Future all exist similtaniously). Reincarnation is a metaphorical way of looking at it, but does not nearly describe what it means. Currently, we are all incarnated 6 billion times as humans, with our own personalities being but parts of this greater spectrum. We could remember what this state was like if we could remember being conceived, developing a brain, being born, being given a name, and being taught a language, thereby giving us a personal identity, but there isnt one person here who can remember that transition. Death will be the same as before life. We will not go on personally, but we will continue as something indescribable. Nothing and everything become blurred in this, therefore I am something of a Nihilistic Pantheist, all the while being very esoteric, as I could never describe my understandings of these concepts in any language. Let go of your self if you want happiness. Let go of language if you want to speak to eternity. We can no more imagine true nothingness as we can understand true infinite existance. They are one in the same. I imagine dying as being something akin to waking up from a dream where I was not my self.

There is really only one way you can understand what you are, and that is in forgetting yourself. Many ways to do this, psychedelic drugs are an easy way. Salvia for instance is an extremly powerful spiritual aid for me. Its not about the trips that I have (and they are intence; the universe being poured down the drain by an evil train conductor is my favourite) but it is the fact that during these trips, I forget everything about my own existance. I forget my name, anatomy, memory, language, appearence, everything. The kicker is in remembering all these details. I am not afraid about the state after death, the only thing I am sketchy about is the transition.

[Leo]

Dyst, here the understanding of death becomes important. According to the law of physics that says nothing can be created or destroyed, you always existed, it was just that all your atoms was not together. When you die, the collective that your atoms formed will never be together again. In other words, you will never be alive and conscious again. But think it in this way: what if you didn't die, what if being alive was your norm. What would happen then? Would life or anything in your life have any value? Would you even realize life?

The fact that we are going to lose life gives it a meaning. It makes it possible for us to care, it makes it possible for us to enjoy every moment, because it might be the last we are living in. It gives us reason to hope, to fight for a better future.

[Spartacist]

Didn't Dostoyevsky say if there is no god then everything is permitted? That is how I live life. I'm not bothered by something as harmless as stealing from some capitalist store or fucking whom I wish, when I wish and where I wish. Likewise I see no reason to bother about gunning down the enemies of the People.

But since most of us on the Left do not believe in god, why are we held back from rising up and taking down our class adversary? Why do we hold back if there are no limits?

[McLeft]

I guess that the only thing that matters is what affects us when we are alive on this planet. Personally i'm a 'half utilitarian' while I believe that my purpose is to be a good person according to my own concept of good and bad and right and wrong and still be able to make a difference to society and help it become happy or at least the great majority of it WITHOUT compromising morality and without justifying "wrong" or "bad", I believe this is what matters to you and to your conscience while you're alive and it helps build a basis for your legacy to be passed on after your death for other people to follow, to be inspired by or to learn from. My argument is that it does not matter what happens after life because there may not be an afterlife anyway and the only thing that matters is what matters to consciousness, to life..

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by Disciple of Prometheus+Apr 25 2006, 05:07 PM--> (Disciple of Prometheus @ Apr 25 2006, 05:07 PM)
[email protected] 19 2006, 08:58 PM
It's basicly that nothing matters because you are going to die anyways, and when you die you are dissolved as a concious.


Life has no meaning at all. None. The only meaning that it could have is what you the individual give it. Which isn't to say "why bother," it would imply if your life has substance there is no reason to fear death, if nothing matters to you then your life lacks substance, and you begin to fear death. [/b]
I disagree.

Hapiness, fulfilment, and making other people happy is my purpose, at least the way I see it. Realy, all people want to be happy, no matter who you are. That's pupose. No purpose is set in stone, but all strategicaly happy people are tacticaly happ

[rouchambeau]

Things can still matter even if we all die and our lives are meaningless. The fact that I get food when I am hungry matters. I clean and safe home matters. Friends matter. I'm sure all of these things matter to you as well. Nevermind that they will probably be forgotten after death.

[thisisfree]

I believe human existence, is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. There is no reasonable proof of the existence of a higher ruler or creater, a "true morality" is unknown, and secular ethics are impossible; therefore, life has no truth, and no action is known to be preferable to any other.

There is no ultimate question.
There is no ultimate answer.
We are here, right now. That's reality, nothing else.

[DaRk-OnE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 08:52 PM
I believe human existence, is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. There is no reasonable proof of the existence of a higher ruler or creater, a "true morality" is unknown, and secular ethics are impossible; therefore, life has no truth, and no action is known to be preferable to any other.

There is no ultimate question.
There is no ultimate answer.
We are here, right now. That's reality, nothing else.
lol Ctrl C off wikkipedia

wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilists)
first paragrah

[Erim]

You are made of energy.. The stuff of the universe. Who knows what happens when your physical form dies, nobody does. But I believe energy, the energy in you and me, will live past our physical death.. maybe not a conscience energy, but I believe everyone's spiritual imprint will be left upon this world. And your life has ultimate religious meaning, you have this incredible consciousness, the universe trying to express itself through creative evolution. You are that creative evolution, that creative energy. That is what created you, and what you continue simply by your thought. By being alive, you have meaning if you're willing to grab ahold of that. We follow the same evolutionary expansion as all other life, and we are the highest yet form that has peaked out of the evolutionary process capable of understanding and changing all the rest of it.

-Erim

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Refutations of nihilism are in short supply. Firstly, nihilism emerges from a disbanding of traditional morality (i.e. religion). Consequently, most criticisms of nihilism are reactionary and illogical. However, if one wishes to reconcile nihilistic thought with purpose, Nietzsche is the source you should study. Nietzsche basically offers an individualist critique of the "no action is preferable to another" premise of nihilism. Aside from that, he's pretty much a nihilist. However, the difference when it comes to that premise is important as it provides a foundation for purpose and self-fulfillment throughout one's life.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I think you're on a very negative line of thought. Thinking like that will get you nowhere, surely we ought to be constructive? Asserting that nothing matters because you'll die anyway is almost child-like, in that, as you recognised, it is so grossly egotistical that it becomes nonsense. What about altruism? What about working for others in the future?

-Alex

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I think you're on a very negative line of thought. Thinking like that will get you nowhere, surely we ought to be constructive? Asserting that nothing matters because you'll die anyway is almost child-like, in that, as you recognised, it is so grossly egotistical that it becomes nonsense. What about altruism? What about working for others in the future?

-Alex

[BurnTheOliveTree]

I think you're on a very negative line of thought. Thinking like that will get you nowhere, surely we ought to be constructive? Asserting that nothing matters because you'll die anyway is almost child-like, in that, as you recognised, it is so grossly egotistical that it becomes nonsense. What about altruism? What about working for others in the future?

-Alex

[Hit The North]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 11:48 PM
You are made of energy.. The stuff of the universe. Who knows what happens when your physical form dies, nobody does. But I believe energy, the energy in you and me, will live past our physical death.. maybe not a conscience energy, but I believe everyone's spiritual imprint will be left upon this world. And your life has ultimate religious meaning, you have this incredible consciousness, the universe trying to express itself through creative evolution. You are that creative evolution, that creative energy. That is what created you, and what you continue simply by your thought. By being alive, you have meaning if you're willing to grab ahold of that. We follow the same evolutionary expansion as all other life, and we are the highest yet form that has peaked out of the evolutionary process capable of understanding and changing all the rest of it.

-Erim
What the hell is "spiritual energy"?

Bottom line: you've got one life and the best you can do with it is enrich the lives of others and make a difference that way.

Nihilism is just a distraction telling you that the only thing you have is worthless.

[Hit The North]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 11:48 PM
You are made of energy.. The stuff of the universe. Who knows what happens when your physical form dies, nobody does. But I believe energy, the energy in you and me, will live past our physical death.. maybe not a conscience energy, but I believe everyone's spiritual imprint will be left upon this world. And your life has ultimate religious meaning, you have this incredible consciousness, the universe trying to express itself through creative evolution. You are that creative evolution, that creative energy. That is what created you, and what you continue simply by your thought. By being alive, you have meaning if you're willing to grab ahold of that. We follow the same evolutionary expansion as all other life, and we are the highest yet form that has peaked out of the evolutionary process capable of understanding and changing all the rest of it.

-Erim
What the hell is "spiritual energy"?

Bottom line: you've got one life and the best you can do with it is enrich the lives of others and make a difference that way.

Nihilism is just a distraction telling you that the only thing you have is worthless.

[Hit The North]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 11:48 PM
You are made of energy.. The stuff of the universe. Who knows what happens when your physical form dies, nobody does. But I believe energy, the energy in you and me, will live past our physical death.. maybe not a conscience energy, but I believe everyone's spiritual imprint will be left upon this world. And your life has ultimate religious meaning, you have this incredible consciousness, the universe trying to express itself through creative evolution. You are that creative evolution, that creative energy. That is what created you, and what you continue simply by your thought. By being alive, you have meaning if you're willing to grab ahold of that. We follow the same evolutionary expansion as all other life, and we are the highest yet form that has peaked out of the evolutionary process capable of understanding and changing all the rest of it.

-Erim
What the hell is "spiritual energy"?

Bottom line: you've got one life and the best you can do with it is enrich the lives of others and make a difference that way.

Nihilism is just a distraction telling you that the only thing you have is worthless.