Planning for a Cuba without Castro

[drain.you]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/cros...nts/4899414.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/4899414.stm)

Worth reading.
Mentions the American budget of $59m to "hasten the transition" and to ensure that neither Raul Castro nor any of the other "pretenders", from Vice President Carlos Lage to Foreign Minister Perez Roque, automatically continue the current system.

[piet11111]

"How come the US went so many miles from our shores to get rid of a tyrant, and they don't understand the risk of having somebody spreading communism and violence around this hemisphere?" complains Remedios Diaz, a business woman who is one of the founders of the Cuban Liberty Council.
She looks forward to a day soon when she can market her products freely throughout Cuba, and is not worried if change there is brought about by force.

*angry ranting*

ok i deleted all of the angry ranting and feel a bit better.
but still the above quote is the best example of capitalists not giving a damn about the lives of others aslong as they can exploit them as much as possible.

i would not call castro a communist or even a socialist but if there ever was a "benevolent dictator" it would be castro.
he did a lot of good for the cubans and it would be a shame if he died the world would lose yet another colourfull individual.

i hope he will somehow live long enough to see the revolution but the chance for that happening is close to nothing.
the next best thing would be bush for the war crimes tribunal and i think that will happen if the bush junta is replaced by sane politicians.

[rebelworker]

I think the statements by people that they depend on fidel to give them the revolution is a sad commentary on the problems of one leader attempts to build socialism.

There is no independant revolutionary movement in Cuba, just alot of activists tied into the state. I hope the transition period allows for(or even forces) grass roots militants to take more of a lead in the political direction of the country.

A return to full Capitalism will be dissapointing. Like venesuela I think the level of controll the military exerts is also a bad thing, I hope raul dose not just become the next fidel.

[Keyser]

but still the above quote is the best example of capitalists not giving a damn about the lives of others aslong as they can exploit them as much as possible.

But this is how the capitalist class acts and thinks.

The ruling class will defend their interests to the end and the oppressed must work together to collectively defend their interests.

That is the nature of class war.


the next best thing would be bush for the war crimes tribunal and i think that will happen if the bush junta is replaced by sane politicians.

That is just reformist-liberal BS.

For the capitalist class, the Bush regime is sane and the ruling class only ever allow governments of their choosing.

The problem with liberals like Micheal Moore and Democratic Party supporters is that they simply focus all the problems that capitalism creates on the individual character of Bush himself.

"If we only got rid of Bush, then everything would be great" is the cry many liberals and Democrats make.

In reality was Clinton any better.

Clinton bombed nations like Sudan and invaded others like Haiti. Clinton cut back on welfare projects just like Bush and allowed the plunder of our environments resources for the corporate greed of the energy industry lobby.

I'm afraid that nothing in life is as simple as just getting rid of Bush. He would only ever be replaced by another mass murdering, corrupt ruler, nothing more.

Bush is just one of many in the political ruling class and would and can be replaced by many others willing to serve their corporate paymasters.

Instead of trying to just simply remove Bush at any cost (including the cost some posters make on Revleft of voting for the Democrats) we should focus on the objective that we all want, the removal of capitalism itself!

[Karl Marx's Camel]

i hope he will somehow live long enough to see the revolution

Who is he, and what revolution are you talking about?

[Steve72]

When Fidel dies there will be a funeral :rolleyes:

[piet11111]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 04:44 PM


i hope he will somehow live long enough to see the revolution

Who is he, and what revolution are you talking about?
fidel castro and our communist revolution.

i think it would be sad for castro to die knowing those anti-castro americans are celebrating because of that.
if he died after a communist revolution he would be the one laughing.
he is not perfect but he does deserve to have the last laugh imo.

[citizen_snips]

If I was the woman at "Cuban Liberty Council" I really would be worried about what would happen if they tried to bring about free market capitalism by force. "By force" meaning US military invasion, then how well do they think that's going to work? Does even one of them genuinely think that they'll come out throwing flowers and celebrating (a la how the Iraqis were meant to react) after the way that the US has treated them over the years? They can't even pretend it in this case, surely.

I don't think they will do it, mainly because it wouldn't work, not because they're afraid of being undemocratic and tyrannical. The last thing the US government needs right now is another horrible military disaster on their record, and one so close to home as well. Even amongst the people who are anti-Castro, not a single Cuban person is going to put up with US occupation. And other parts of Latin America will support them.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 12:46 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/cros...nts/4899414.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/4899414.stm)

Worth reading.
Mentions the American budget of $59m to "hasten the transition" and to ensure that neither Raul Castro nor any of the other "pretenders", from Vice President Carlos Lage to Foreign Minister Perez Roque, automatically continue the current system.
if i see one sign of the US getting it's shriveled, corrupted, slimy little fingers where it is neither wanted nor belonging, i will personally see to it that that capability is never regained by this country. i do not know how, but i know as a citizen of the world that i cannot stand by and watch a bunch of nepotic plutocrats dictate their morality and enslave the world.

Viva Fidel.

If the US dares to touch Cuba (they promised the soviets never to invade, but they may simply because the USSR is gone. though Cuba allows the US to have gitmo even though there is a different cuban regime...whatever) i will not stop until this country's ability to commit such evil and dictate such horse**** is nothing but smoldering ashes, and the people responsible for its direction long buried.

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 10:55 PM
If I was the woman at "Cuban Liberty Council" I really would be worried about what would happen if they tried to bring about free market capitalism by force. "By force" meaning US military invasion, then how well do they think that's going to work? Does even one of them genuinely think that they'll come out throwing flowers and celebrating (a la how the Iraqis were meant to react) after the way that the US has treated them over the years? They can't even pretend it in this case, surely.

I don't think they will do it, mainly because it wouldn't work, not because they're afraid of being undemocratic and tyrannical. The last thing the US government needs right now is another horrible military disaster on their record, and one so close to home as well. Even amongst the people who are anti-Castro, not a single Cuban person is going to put up with US occupation. And other parts of Latin America will support them.
Iraq was under crippling sanctions from the US for many many years that killed many children from lack of needed supplies. Cuba will react the same way. Some will rejoice in a shallow, superficial orgy of joyful bewilderment. Then, the dumbass farmboys will have their heads blown off.

[RebelDog]

If the US were to invade Cuba and the call went out for volunteers around the world to help defend the Cuban revolution, I would give such a plea serious consideration.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by Anarchism [email protected] 17 2006, 03:59 PM
The problem with liberals like Micheal Moore and Democratic Party supporters is that they simply focus all the problems that capitalism creates on the individual character of Bush himself.

"If we only got rid of Bush, then everything would be great" is the cry many liberals and Democrats make.
Sadly, parties like CPUSA and RCP do it too. It's awful.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Fucking stupid americans.

I hope if they do set up a pupet government, then the cubans violently react.

I dont agree with fidel being in power for so long, and a more democratic system would be much better. But Setting up a liber democracy, is plainly saying america wants is playground back, with all the "perks" of capitalism.


If the US were to invade Cuba and the call went out for volunteers around the world to help defend the Cuban revolution, I would give such a plea serious consideration.

me too, fuck the U$.

[piet11111]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 19 2006, 06:34 AM
If the US were to invade Cuba and the call went out for volunteers around the world to help defend the Cuban revolution, I would give such a plea serious consideration.
i would also seriously consider doing that aswell but not because i consider castro's socialism a good thing but because american imperialism would destroy the country.

and it would be a very good opportunity to get some first hand experience in combat.
if i survive the fighting the experience gained would be invaluable to the communist revolution.

[RebelDog]

There are a lot of things in Cuba worth fighting for. Cuba is not perfect, but to allow the US to destroy the revolution would be a major setback for us all.

[rebelworker]

The idea of internationalist brigades is an interesting one. I have always wondered what would have happened if the thousands of organisers and working class militants had ev stayed in North America would it have been a boost to the revolutionary movement here at a crutial time.

The Combat effectiveness of the american volunteers was not that high, about 2/3rds were killed withalmost no military impact whatsoever. The North american vol. were netoriously soft in combat, without the streetfighing and insurectionary experience of their european counterparts.

There can be no doubt however on the propaghanda and moral suport it brought to the spanish people. But whould it mabey have been beter if they did shorter, less combat focused visits to inspire people to go back to america and organise aginst the arms blockade that left the rebels helpless in the face of a better armed Facist army.

If cuba gets invaded the benefits of sending a few volenteers to combat might be outwieghed by their value as organisers at home.

Just some thoughts.

[piet11111]

in the case of spain you may be right partially but today staying home and trying to organise anything for cuba (in the case of an american invasion or whatnot) is entirely pointless.

cuba would need soldiers instead of supply's (venezuela will handle that) and first hand witness acounts.
(the stuff below counts for all future wars and even the revolution)
the foreign brigades would need to bring along medicinal supply's and laptops (with sattalite internet connection) and digital photocamera's (video camera's even better) and spread as much pictures/video's of the war around as possible.
the biggest impact anyone can make is with propaganda to sway the worlds opinion in our favor.

weapons and munitions will be present on location and if its not immediatly for grabs you will just need to stay low and wait untill a comrade is killed/injured and then take his weapon and munitions.

remember the most powerfull soldier are not the generals nor the ones with machineguns its the one with the camera that will determine the outcome of the war.

[Tekun]

The day that Fidel passes will be somber...
However, once that happens, I hope the Cuban government can organize democratic elections as quickly as possible in order to frustrate and give the imperialists no argument for their invasion

I hope Raul doesn't take power or assume power once Fidel dies, if he did he'd give the imperialists an argument to invade, and it would show the world that democracy is meaningless in Cuba

Hopefully the Cubans already have a plan for when that event comes to pass
I just hope that once Fidel dies, Cuba doesn't open its doors to full blown capitalism like in China
We don't need another quasi-socialist state, especially one that practices "market socialism" and at the same time exploits its workers



The thought of an US invasion is pretty remote, due to the lack of legitimacy of the US government in regards to its foreing policy and the exhaustion of US forces abroad

An international army to defend Cuba from the imperialists would be amazing, if the event ever occurred
But it takes alot of organization, money, and secrecy to build up an underground army
Difficult but not impossible

[321zero]

BBC After Castro - Part Two (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/documentary_archive/4880722.stm)

The gusano interviews.

[Wiesty]

fucking capitalists, piss me off

did you notice how Adalaida lives in a "Shack" not a "House"

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 06:58 AM
However, once that happens, I hope the Cuban government can organize democratic elections as quickly as possible in order to frustrate and give the imperialists no argument for their invasion
What about getting rid of politicians altogether?

[Gobythebear]

Originally posted by Anarchism [email protected] 17 2006, 03:59 PM

but still the above quote is the best example of capitalists not giving a damn about the lives of others aslong as they can exploit them as much as possible.

But this is how the capitalist class acts and thinks.

The ruling class will defend their interests to the end and the oppressed must work together to collectively defend their interests.

That is the nature of class war.


the next best thing would be bush for the war crimes tribunal and i think that will happen if the bush junta is replaced by sane politicians.

That is just reformist-liberal BS.

For the capitalist class, the Bush regime is sane and the ruling class only ever allow governments of their choosing.

The problem with liberals like Micheal Moore and Democratic Party supporters is that they simply focus all the problems that capitalism creates on the individual character of Bush himself.

"If we only got rid of Bush, then everything would be great" is the cry many liberals and Democrats make.

In reality was Clinton any better.

Clinton bombed nations like Sudan and invaded others like Haiti. Clinton cut back on welfare projects just like Bush and allowed the plunder of our environments resources for the corporate greed of the energy industry lobby.

I'm afraid that nothing in life is as simple as just getting rid of Bush. He would only ever be replaced by another mass murdering, corrput ruler, nothing more.

Bush is just one of many in the political ruling class and would and can be replaced by many others willing to serve their corporate paymasters.

Instead of trying to just simply remove Bush at any cost (including the cost some posters make on Revleft of voting for the Democrats) we should focus on the objective that we all want, the removal of capitalism itself!
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

I agree.

[вор в законе]

I would too fight for Cuba. Regardless on whether we agree with Cuba's Socialism, that island is a symbol of resistance and the Imperialists will do anything they can to brake it.

[piet11111]

im curious if cuba would accept international brigades in such a case.
if someone could find this out i would be very interested.

[вор в законе]

Well we already have the International Work Brigades (http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/brigades.htm) so I assume they would accept people who are willing to defend Cuba.

The problem is that as opposed to the Spanish Civil War, Cuba is an isolated island in the middle of the Caribbean sea and the Socialist movement has been stagnated (this was not the case during the 30's).

[RevMARKSman]

I'd fight. Anything to get out of here ("United States"). The least we can do for Fidel and Che is to keep their cause going. Just adding 100 people would be great.


:che: :castro:

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Anything to get out of here (America).

South... America? Central... America? North... America?

[CubaSocialista]

It is agreed then.

The continued survival of the Cuban Revolution as an institution, ideology, and governance is critical to the Revolutionary Left in its fight against globalisation and the exploitation of the Third World; and eventual destruction of the entire planet in a mad, rabid episode of thoughtless consumption.

[piet11111]

well the survival of the cuban "revolution" is critical for the survival of cuban independance and continued resistance against american imperialism.

that alone is more then enough reason to slaughter the agressors before they make it on cuban soil.
the added combat experience and good relations with cuba would be a fantastic start to our revolution as cuba can help with supply's and experts.

would i fight for cuba ? yes

[Dimentio]

Castro has the upper hand. Venezuela, Bolivia and Argentina would not allow the US to retake Cuba. He has a stronger position than ever.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 09:56 PM
Viva Fidel.
Indeed.


If the US were to invade Cuba and the call went out for volunteers around the world to help defend the Cuban revolution, I would give such a plea serious consideration.
Then at least consider taking Spanish lessons, at least enough to follow orders. Also, that would be "kind of" hard if you live in the U.S. - they won't allow anyone to Cuba who spends money there(i.e., just about every tourist), I doubt they'd let people out who want to fight there, especially not in wartime.


I hope Raul doesn't take power or assume power once Fidel dies, if he did he'd give the imperialists an argument to invade, and it would show the world that democracy is meaningless in Cuba
Raul will probably be there temporarily, and after that someone like Perez Roque, I guess. But don't fool yourself - no matter if it's Raul or Felipe, if it's someone from the Communist Party, the imperialists will have an "argument" for invasion.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I think Perez Roque would be a fitting head of state. I like him, and I think he presents Cuba well.

He is young, he is charismatic, he is strong.

[вор в законе]

Castro should decide who will be the ''next one'' while he is alive. Otherwise we will have a gap of power identical to what happened in Yugoslavia when Tito died.

[Body Count]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 23 2006, 10:15 PM
Castro should decide who will be the ''next one'' while he is alive. Otherwise we will have a gap of power identical to what happened in Yugoslavia when Tito died.
I disagree with this.

I think that something that has always been a bad mark on Leninist is our tendency to care what dead party leaders have to say about leadership after their deaths.

I mean, look at the Stalin and Trotsky thing....all this arguing over a letter.......who cares who Lenin wanted to replace him? He was dead, it wasn't his choice to make.

Also, I personally think that Leninist parties should make it a rule that no family member of a high ranking official can later become a high ranking official...heck, to be safe, they shouldn't even be allowed in the party.

We must be careful not to support systems similar to dynasties and monarchies.

[вор в законе]

Originally posted by Body Count+Apr 24 2006, 08:26 PM--> (Body Count @ Apr 24 2006, 08:26 PM)
Red [email protected] 23 2006, 10:15 PM
Castro should decide who will be the ''next one'' while he is alive. Otherwise we will have a gap of power identical to what happened in Yugoslavia when Tito died.
I disagree with this.

I think that something that has always been a bad mark on Leninist is our tendency to care what dead party leaders have to say about leadership after their deaths.

I mean, look at the Stalin and Trotsky thing....all this arguing over a letter.......who cares who Lenin wanted to replace him? He was dead, it wasn't his choice to make.

Also, I personally think that Leninist parties should make it a rule that no family member of a high ranking official can later become a high ranking official...heck, to be safe, they shouldn't even be allowed in the party.

We must be careful not to support systems similar to dynasties and monarchies.[/b]

I agree with most of your points with regards to the tenets of the ''Leninists'' (I don't believe Lenin ever wanted that kind of a personal cult), which reminds me of the Medieval monarchs when they had to chose their heirs.

But you know better than me that a gap of power in Cuba right now would destabilize the country and consequently make it vulnerable to Imperialist invasions.

I believe that Cuba must remain in a state of equilibrium after Castro's death and any democratization process must become gradually.

I have seen this happening before in Yugoslavia, which is why I am stressing this point.

Regards