Is there such a thing as a perfect System?

[kristian77]

Capitalism obviously is a flawed system. Massive environmental destruction and social inequality is spawning at insane rates around the world. However, a lot of people will argue that the same can be said about Communism.

So is there a "perfect" system, or is it Man himself who is flawed?

- Kristian
The Life Forum

[Entrails Konfetti]

SPAM!

[kristian77]

Why is this spam? Was my question not a valid one?


Spam/One-Line Posts

Please do not post any one-line posts like "I agree", "Good point", "Hear, Hear", or whatever to increase your post count. If you have nothing productive to say, don't say it! Notorious spammers/one-line posters will be banned.

I don't see the problem with my post. Your post, on the other hand, violated this rule ;)

Edit: included quote from the rules.

[Entrails Konfetti]

But your going around promoting your message boards site on this message boards site.

It would have been an alright thread if you didn't post your link, and you posted this is learning section.

[YKTMX]

However, a lot of people will argue that the same can be said about Communism.


Firstly, the societies which claimed to be "communist" in the 20th century, and those which still claim to be, are not communist.

Communism is a historical epoch defined by statelessness and the dissolution of class distinctions, in which every human being has equal and unhindered access to productive forces. This is/was demonstrably not the case in the Soviet Union, China, Cuba or anywhere else you care to mention.

Secondly, the goal of the working class movement is not to create a "perfect" society. As you suggest, any venture which had "Perfection" as its goal would be doomed from the start.

What we want to create is a world in which human beings are free to develop to their full individual, personal, emotional, social, mental, artistic and intellectual capacities. To do this, we propose the complete and utter destruction of capitalism and its replacement with a social system based on collective and common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange. This system would bring about, not initially but eventually, complete social and economic quality. It would create economic quality by removing the means by which human beings' labour is exploited. It would create social equality by removing the economic conditions which create, and rely on, racial, sexual, religious conflict.

In order to create such a society, we propose a revolution led by the working class. The working class is that class which lives by the sale of their labour power alone. This class is an historically priveliged position as a result of their role in capitalist production. This class is the key to existence of capitalism, thus it is also the key to the destruction of capitalism. When this class, as they inevitably will, gain a full and clear class consciousness, which spans across national and racial borders, its victory, and the victory of communism, will be assured.

Such a society would be the first wholly democratic system in history.

That is, to borrow a phrase, why we fight.


P.S. sorry for the flowery langauge. :lol:

[kristian77]

YouKnowTheyMurderedX, thanks for a good and relevant reply.

I consider myself a realistic idealist, and though your vision no doubt is beautiful, I fail to see how the next attempt would be different from e.g. what happened in the Soviet revolution. Different groups of Man has always been exploiting other groups, the means to that exploitation have varied (with technology and societal power structures), but there has always been exploitation. Thus I find myself to be a cynic when it comes to power structures.

Do you believe that the leaders of this revolution will be able to resist power sickness, like almost all leaders in history have been ultimately corrupted by?

Could it be that we with genetics or cybernetics could design a new leader without the flaws of Man?

[YKTMX]

I fail to see how the next attempt would be different from e.g. what happened in the Soviet revolution.


The revolution, if it is to succeed, must take place simultaneously in a number of countries (which is why I said a fully internationalist class consciousness is required).

Russia was an isolated and backward country, which was led by an extremely class conscious working class and Marxist vanguard into revolution.

The history of the Soviet Union, and the development of Stalinism, was not inevitable, neither was it the result of "power hungry" individuals. It happened as the result of a succession of historical events I don't want to get into (the civil war, the defeat of the German revolution specifically).

There's lots of things you can read which explain the degeneration of the revolution in Marxist terms, rather than psychological ones, which I'd suggest to you are, on the whole, useless.


but there has always been exploitation. Thus I find myself to be a cynic when it comes to power structures.


Well, if you read Engels on primitive communism, you'll read about ancient human social groupings based on collectivism rather than domination, but that's another matter.

You're quite right in one respect. No one wishes to simply recreate existing social relations (power structures, as you call them). Which is why the next revolution would have to guard quite stringently against the development of such tendencies. And as I said, if the revolution is international and happens in the advanced countries, I think we'll be in a better position to do this than we were in Russia.

[Sacha]

The question if fundimentally flawed.

"Massive environmental destruction and social inequality is spawning at insane rates around the world. However, a lot of people will argue that the same can be said about Communism."

You obviously have no real understanding of the global system.

As well, asking for the perfect system is going to send you around in circles.

That is really the million dollar question - it is what this forum and most of the posts are about. Really, that question doesn't need to be asked as it is the constant pursuit which supports places like this and other progessive social movements and groups.

It is the holy grail.

What do YOU think the perfect world would be like?

[kristian77]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 08:52 PM
You obviously have no real understanding of the global system.

Please explain to me how you came to that conclusion. It's a claim with a very thin knowledge base.

Your other point (that a perfect system is something to strive for, but that will never actually occur) is valid, though.

So let me rephrase my question:

Is it possible to create a system that makes it impossible for power hungry, corrupted individuals to exploit other people? And if so, what would this system look like?

[kristian77]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 05:18 PM
No one wishes to simply recreate existing social relations (power structures, as you call them). Which is why the next revolution would have to guard quite stringently against the development of such tendencies. And as I said, if the revolution is international and happens in the advanced countries, I think we'll be in a better position to do this than we were in Russia.
Again, a very noble ideal, but can it be done? To me, history tells how when society gets complex enough, some group or individual emerges to take benefit from (exploit) the rest. I, for one, do not know of an example in which this did not happen.

To me, it seems that extreme decentralisation could be the answer. Decision making on very local levels will always be more open than on higher, more complex levels.

[YSR]

/\ Anarchy!

Now that's the ticket!

Be warned however, that local level decision-making can be JUST as absurd and corrupt as higher levels. The key problem is money. Remove that from the situation and local control is a superior manner of creating positive visions of society.

[anomaly]

Originally posted by kristian77
To me, it seems that extreme decentralisation could be the answer. Decision making on very local levels will always be more open than on higher, more complex levels.
I think you're pretty much right. What doomed the USSR from the beginning, as well as each subsequent revolution, was Leninism itself, in my opinion. The centralized nature of the ideology oozes hierarchy.

The next revolution should have no such 'vanguard'. If we eliminate this power structure from the very beginning, we won't have to worry about it later.

Could some charismatic leader emerge? This is a fear. But if we create an atmosphere that is completely anti-authoritarian, I think any 'leader' would be vehemently opposed.

But anyway, to the question of this thread, perfection, because it is a subjective thing, is not attainable. Is not capitalism perfect for the capitalist?

The next society should be better. And what better goal could we possibly have?

[emokid08]

Communism/Anarchy are the perfect system. (They are after all the same thing)
No State
No Money(Self Orginizing Moneyless Gift Economy based on workers councils and participatory economics)
One or No Classes
No Theft
No hierarchy
No Exploitation
the list goes on and on. . . . . . . . . .
But yes, the utopia that Communism/Anarchism seeks to create is perfect.
:hammer:

[Commie Rat]

Perfection, within ourselves, within our system, within the universe is impossible.
Not to be cynical though.
Communism is the closest thing to perfect we can attain.
or maybe Demarchy?

[cbm989]

..whats Demarchy?

[anomaly]

Demarchy (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1083345239&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

[England Expects]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 04:02 PM


. . . So is there a "perfect" system . . . ?

- Kristian
The Life Forum
Bit of a fan of LINUX myself, GIRUY Bill Gates. :lol: