Matial Arts and Self-Defense

[Comrade Marcel]

Hey comrades,

I just want to take a bit of time to talk about Martial Arts; and in general being prepaired and ready.

I'm not going to write a big article here, because I'm actually working on an article on this subject, so I'm looking for opinions and feedback here.

In the long run, we are going to need comraes who know how to do things like fight armed and unarmed combat, can survive outdoors in urban, suburban and rulral environments, have medical / first aid knowledge, etc.

So, being that most of us are in setting that makes getting this sort of knowledge difficult, I would like to hear what some other comrades have done to make it possible. More importantly, how to you integrate this knowledge and leanring into the collective envirnoment of your activist work (in other words, do you teach others or get them involved)?

Don't post anything that you think could get you in trouble.

In our antifascist collective, our plan was to use dues to subsidise comrades to learn martial arts. Our goal in the long run was to study and find which martial art(s) would be best for the work we do, and eventually be able to teach within our own collective.

The main problems have been keeping people going, and not dropping out. Often, one persyn drops from a martial arts school and the comrade they were partnered to go with soon leaves after. Time in our daily lives seem to be a major contributor to this problem, an not the lack of funds, lack of fun, or the amount of energy required.

I am particularly interested in how to go about rectifying the above problem. You would think that anyone in a political organization would jump at the chance to have %30-50 of their martial arts paid for, and go regularly. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if the incentive just maybe didn't justify the need. Maybe the initial thought was exciting, but after no pratical use people lots the initial interest. I mean, lets face it: Toronto is not that overrun with boneheads and we don't get attacked on a daily bases.

Well, that's my rant. At some point I will post a very breif analysis of Martial Arts styles.

Look forward to your thoughts.

[heavymanners]

I was involved in militant anti-fascist activity back in the 90s, and found that boxing, Muay Thai or even regular full contact kickboxing were good styles for the types of confrontations you're likely to get in doing antifa stuff. You train realistically, get in shape, learn to hit with power and it's relatively easy to learn the basics of these systems in a fairly short time.

Filipino martial arts (FMA) like Arnis, Kali or Escrima can be good as well (especially if you're in a situation that might involve improvised weapons like sticks, etc), but make sure you train with somebody that knows what they're doing and trains realistically with sparring, etc.. Unfortunately, there are a lot of bullshit artists out there passing themselves off as FMA instructors these days.

Knowing some groundfighting and throwing is a good idea as well. Even if you don't really want to be on the ground in a streetfight, having some idea of what to do will put you in a position to get back on your feet more quickly if you do get taken down. Judo is good for throws, takedowns and basic ground grappling, and is usually available at a low cost through post-secondary schools or through community centres.

Avoid styles that claim to be "too deadly to spar" or that don't have much of a fitness component. Some sort of realistic contact sparring is essential if you're going to be able to make things work in the real world, and fitness really does matter (not getting tired in a fight and being able to run away and/or chase people is often pretty important in militant antifascist activism). Likewise, styles that rely on overly complicated techniques are a waste of time for most people, as you're unlikely to be able to pull them off under pressure.

[violencia.Proletariat]

You would think that anyone in a political organization would jump at the chance to have %30-50 of their martial arts paid for, and go regularly

I would :D Maybe trying to network your group and assist other areas with problems would keep people interested. Traveling to other places in need would probably be expensive though :(

[Axel1917]

From Comrade Marcel:


You would think that anyone in a political organization would jump at the chance to have %30-50 of their martial arts paid for, and go regularly.

Personally, I would, given that these time constraints of mine were not an issue. I don't know about others, but I think that it would help sway some of them into taking martial arts.

I suppose that if all else fails, basic equipment like pepper spray can be useful.

[Black Dagger]

The training subsidisation --> to collective teaching itself strategy is excellent! I'm hoping to start training in Jiu-Jitsu and Muay Thai in the next few months, so if that works out i'll share my experiences. Getting self-defence training is definately a smart thing to do, especially for revolutionaries, good topic.

[bed_of_nails]

What kind Of Jujutsu? There are certain kinds that have become nothing more than a simple game such as wrestling.

[Nachie]

Please see Parkour For Commies: A Guide to Urban Freerunning (http://www.redanarchist.org/texts/indy/parkour.html) by the Red & Anarchist Action Network

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 07:53 AM
Please see Parkour For Commies: A Guide to Urban Freerunning (http://www.redanarchist.org/texts/indy/parkour.html) by the Red & Anarchist Action Network
Looks like a great article, I have actually been wanting to add a bit of parkour to my arsenal for awhile, but got a bit of a beer belly to wear down. :lol:

Right now I am curently doing Systema, Savate (French Kickboxing) and Jeet Kune Do. I'm hoping to add Judo, or some form of Jiujitsu or wrestling of some sort at some point to perfect my ground game.

Systema training is very useful for activism, I'll write about why later. Some of the other comrades went with Krav Maga.

[Nachie]

I've had good experiences with Krav Maga in learning disarming techniques. Lots of other martial arts don't realistically prepare you to have a gun drawn on you.

If you can find somewhere to train Ninpo (Jiu, Tai, and Ninjutusu taught simultaneously) I fucking LOVED it. Other than that Muay Tai and/or Jiujutsu make for good all-around training.

In the meantime, Parkour is free and can be done with multiple comrades whenever!

[heavymanners]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 17 2006, 08:14 AM
Right now I am curently doing Systema [...]

I'm hoping to add Judo, or some form of Jiujitsu or wrestling of some sort at some point to perfect my ground game.

Systema training is very useful for activism, I'll write about why later. Some of the other comrades went with Krav Maga.
I'm curious to hear about your experience with Systema. I've hear some people critique some Systema instructors for allegedly promoting "bullshido"-ish, quasi-mystical ideas, and also for relying too much on compliant partner drills. I don't actually have any personal opinion on it, as I've never met anyone who does it and there are no Systema schools where I live.

As far as grappling/wrestling styles, I hear that Sambo/Sombo is very good, and as a style developed in the early history of the USSR would likely integrate well with your politics ;)

From what I hear, Krav Maga instruction can be pretty hit and miss, as the certification standards are sometimes pretty lax. Like a lot of martial arts these days, it's often franchised as a kind of "McDojo" with a purely commercial orientation, and there are cases of people being certified as 'instructors' after only very brief periods of seminar instruction themselves. That being said, I'm sure there must be some legitimate, high quality Krav Maga out there somewhere as well.

[C_Rasmussen]

How about those that aren't patient enough or coordinated enough (like myself)? Would typical streetfighting techniques (such as the head throw and punch, and things like that) work?

[heavymanners]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 08:41 PM
How about those that aren't patient enough or coordinated enough (like myself)? Would typical streetfighting techniques (such as the head throw and punch, and things like that) work?
In a sense, yes.

The stuff that seems to work consistently and well tends to be refined versions of basic strikes, throws, etc.

Overly complex techniques from Kung Fu, Aikido, etc take a long time to learn and tend not to work as well under pressure as relatively straightforward, well practiced techniques like you'll find in boxing, kickboxing and Muay Thai and various forms of wrestling (or Brazillian Jujitsu, Sambo, Judo, etc).

[Janus]

I've had good experiences with Krav Maga in learning disarming techniques
It's quite practical but extremely dishonorable. It is designed for women who are weaker than males. All that crotch-grabbing, crotch-smacking, crotch-kicking, and eye gouging is extremely unappealing.

[Janus]

Overly complex techniques from Kung Fu, Aikido, etc take a long time to learn and tend not to work as well under pressure
It depends how skilled you are of course but you are right. A lot of it is for show and not truly practical.

[FinnMacCool]

I know some Tae Kwan Do. Its pretty easy to learn, not difficult at all, and they can be a big help

[Comrade Marcel]

Well, I'm lucky enough to live in Toronto and Vladimir Vassiliev is not very far away, but I learn from one of his earliest students Emanuel Manolakakis.

As for mystical ideas, yes there is some as there is with many MA's. The contemporary teachers of Systema are into the Russian Orthodox Church, and so part of the "spiritual" side is that you are supposed to believe in God to be a true warrior... It has a lot to do with Systema dating back to old Russia...

Some of the psychic stuff really isn't psychic, but is actually ways of tricking the opponent (with methods such as "shadowing") and Ninjutsu had smiliar techniques. Calling it psychic is part of creating that mystique around it I guess.

There are also some health benefits that a Systema practitioner can optionally follow, such as water dousing. This involves dumping a chilled bucket of water over your head twice per day, preferably outside standing on soil, which is supposed to purge your body of negative energy. It does in fact, raise the tempurature of your body for about a second, which does in fact act almost like your body had a quick fever, and this fights of potential sickness. It also establishes routine, discipline and wakes you up.

The lineage from Vassilev can also be traced back to one of Stalin's body gaurds, which is pretty damn kewl.

As far as the training goes, the philosophy behind Systema is that training is training, and simulating a real fight is impossible. When we "spar" it's actually more of a game, and we don't worry about getting hit, but rather we learn to feel were we are vunerable and how to be defensive and ofensive well getting hit. We learn confidence about moving in closer, and not moving all over the place trying to score points with shots.

When we practice doing takedowns, your partner should learn to feel if what you are doing to him would be effective at full force. If instead he choose to stuggle and tense up, then you have to use more stength. This then just becomes a battle of muscle, and not really good training. An experienced Systema practitioner, however, would know right away what to do and use the tenseness of the partner to take them down.

It's important to note that Systema is not like most other martial arts. If I was to describe it to you by comparing it, I would say that the take downs are similiar to Akido, with energy of the opponent being redirected and your posture maintained, giving you good balance and conserving your energy. However, Systema doesn't try to copy a perfect composure, and much of the tension created by Akido by trying to have the perfect stance/appearance is elimanted, bringing me to Systema's "looseness"... you will learn how to hit the floor, without hurting yourself and for me it is now an automatic reaction to land on the soft parts of my leg, butt and back when I fall well covering the back of my head just in case... your body has to be loose for this, and you have to learn to get up without hurting your limbs on concrete.

Very smiliar to Drunken style Gungfu, Systema teaches looseness and the ability to hit and strike from strange an akward positions if needed, to be relaxed and able to redirect blows.

And you will get hit in Systema; and learn how to use your breathing and relaxation to take the blow.

Much of the breathing is similiar to Yoga, and so are much of the warm up excersises, with a hint of Tai Chi. Breathing is a very important part of Systema, conserving your strength, Stamina and Energy. You will learn how to tense and relax evey part of your body, from your butt cheeks to your head, and you will learn how to relax under pressure, by running and excercising well holding your breath. This is to prepare you to relax in tense situations, and it really does work. I'm a persyn who used to freak out when things got crazy (I don't mean run away, but just get really hype, anxious) and now I am able to be really calm. When I found myself in the middle of rioting in Toledo, I was kewl as a cucumber and actually started leading around some of the comrades in their own town! You will learn how to keep your head, and this is really important in a fight or other situation.

You learn how to do excercises with just your body, or with another partner and you'll quit your gym. Check out some of the stuff we do in this video, which is from Systema UK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKqYu01SD-c&search=systema

There is wrestling in Systema, and the strikes seem odd at first but really work.

The knife defense is contraversial, but then again those who say it doesn't work say there is no defense... I'm sorry but I would rather know something then nothing if I am attacked by a knife and I can't run. That said, there is some decent representation of this work in the above video.

A lot of the stuff is also simliar to what you would expect from a military style, very direct, no nonsense and brutal. Forget the kata's, stances, rituals and bullshit. You will learn to takedown someone by the ears and drag them across the floor by the nostels, all without using an ounce of your own energy just incase another attacker lurks... I kid you not.

The good thing about Systema for activists is the odd situations you can learn to fight in, fighting with chairs, being attacked well sitting in a chair, attacking someone in a chair, using the chair as an obstacle... How to fight well runing, fighting in large crowds, fighting well injured, fighting without site, etc. etc. and all the different things you can use as weapons and how to disarm weapons.... Most importantly, fighting in crowds (mass fights) are a common drill in Systema.

That all said very informally; there is still benefits to crosstrain and take other MA's, and I think all MA's have benefits. I personally think Systema, JKD and Judo is for me. I take Systema for all the reasons above, well the Savate / JKD has good striking and weapons techniques. It's not a bad idea to learn a grappling style so that's why I chose Judo.

Is there qwaks in Systema? I'm sure there is, like in any other martial art. I can't say whether or not Vlad certifies in a McDojo style, but I can say I don't go to a McDojo and I don't think Vlad's is either. They don't try to sell goodies or incourage you to sign others up, or ask for more money for certifications... You are simply awarded a level by surprise when the instructor thinks you deserve it...

I will write more on this in a more coherent manner down the road though. I hope it did help answer some of your questions a bit.

But yeah, just like any other MA place, you shouldn't tell them you're a communist. ;)

As for Sambo, the only place I have seen even remotely close to my city that looks trusworthy is Klub Kozack in Montreal. I've got some Videos of Oleg Taktarov and he is in one of the street fighting tapes with Vassiliev, the guy is awsome.

The above reasons are why I pick Systema, Savate / JKD and Judo...

For someone else, the choice might be Muay Thai, Akido and BJJ...

I agree their is benefits to the sporty style of some MA's and compitition like sparring, but I think you are fooling yourself if you think they are preparing you for a street fight, because the psychology, situation, environment, etc. is going to be so much different, epsecially at an antifa versus nazis rally for example...

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 08:41 PM
How about those that aren't patient enough or coordinated enough (like myself)? Would typical streetfighting techniques (such as the head throw and punch, and things like that) work?
I agree with you here. For example, in Akido circles it's like 20 years before you are considered a "serious begginner"... :rolleyes:

In your case, if you went to Systema twice per week, you would learn a thing or two that would be benefitial in 6 months. It's far from enough, but not unhelpful.

Otherwise you might want to consider soem type of crash courses. There are various MA's around that do that, where you would learn a lot in several 8 hour days (for example).

You could also get videos, and practice with a friend but it's a not a vey efficient way, unless you are disciplined (which it sounds like you are not).

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 09:00 PM

I've had good experiences with Krav Maga in learning disarming techniques
It's quite practical but extremely dishonorable. It is designed for women who are weaker than males. All that crotch-grabbing, crotch-smacking, crotch-kicking, and eye gouging is extremely unappealing.
Actually, it was designed for Israelis to beat up Palestinians in hand to hand combat! :o

But the civilian version taught to wimmin, especially in the U$ certainly focuses on that. I have heard some comrades complain that it gets kid of reactionary (like teaching white wimmin to prepare for being attacked by a Black male)...

I'm sure not all Krav Maga teachers are that reactionay though. Again, I would recommend obstaining from politics at your MAs.

That being said, I know KM does teach a lot of worst case scenerio attacks, and teaches focus when there is distractions, especailly in the military version (loud music, explosions, smoke) which would be good for activists...

[Comrade Marcel]

Defendu and Underwood Systems are also effective and dishonerable, but again many reactionary types teach it because it is a military originating styles...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defendu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defendo

Both were used by the western allies (Britain, Canada, US) during WW II...

[Comrade Marcel]

Those who are interested should also check out Savate:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search=sava...s&search=Search (http://www.youtube.com/results?search=savate&search_type=search_videos&search=Search)

Savate started out as a street fighting style, hence why shoes are still worn and tranfers pretty good for the street. It's more the mentality that you have to change for a street situation then the technique (don't start throwing high kicks in the street!).

The punches are more or less from boxing...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savate

I'm telling you, one fouette (whip kick) to the balls usually is all you need!

JKD is also useful and varies from teacher to teacher... Check out some of the stuff you learn, which is great for close up fighting (trapping) and powerful, fast short quick punches:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search=JKD&...s&search=Search (http://www.youtube.com/results?search=JKD&search_type=search_videos&search=Search)

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

I did Taekwon do, ITF that is not WTF.

The guy who invented Taekwon do was pretty cool actually, but this is only what I have been told. His name is General Choi, Hong hi. He was a fierce advocate of peaceful Korean re-unification.

The ITF was created after he was expelled because he visited North Korea, as a sign of solidarity. He wanted North Koreans to share in the Korean martial art. I don’t know anything of his politics though, which is a shame.

But back to the topic.

I found that TKD as a self defense is awesome. Although I have only defended myself once, and was scared at the time. I found defending myself came very naturally, and the confidence it gave me to handle the situation and posture in a way that showed I was not scared, even though I was, felt like a revelation.

TKD is all about sine wave motion, basically using gravity as part of the equation to make power behind a technique. Also not telegraphing punches, by using hip twisting means the people don’t see your shoulder movements and thus makes it much harder for them to react.

TKD offers me on a martial arts level, solid stances, scientific movements, saving energy. The principle I like most is that TKD practitioners do not aim to "fight"; our aim is to use one technique so the fight never takes place...coz they are on the floor.

But, any martial art with a good teacher will be able to provide you with very helpful things.

IMO, the teacher is the key. If they are good, then you will be safe with learning. If the teacher is bad, you could end up learning some very dangerous things which could end up with you receiving a hiding.

PS. In my opinion TKD is the marxism of martial arts. hands down.

[Janus]

Actually, it was designed for Israelis to beat up Palestinians in hand to hand combat!
Yeah, I know that it was developed for the IDF. However, it does appeal to women as a lot of the moves are aimed at those special regions. :lol:

[heavymanners]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 28 2006, 09:31 PM
I agree their is benefits to the sporty style of some MA's and compitition like sparring, but I think you are fooling yourself if you think they are preparing you for a street fight, because the psychology, situation, environment, etc. is going to be so much different, epsecially at a antifa versus nazis rally

For sure, a street fight (especially between groups of people) is in many ways different from a one on one sport fight. But the flipside is that some "Reality Based" systems without sparring can leave people over-confident about their capacity to 'end a fight with a single blow', and that type of thing. Even a groin shot or an eye gouge is not really a guaranteed fight ender, and if you miss you better have a 'plan b' because the other person is going to be reallly pissed off.

The human body can take a hell of a lot of abuse, and styles with hard sparring at least give you some sense of your capacities and of how hard it can be to actually do damage to somebody that is seriously resisting you.

Sounds like you've found a good mix of training though - savate should gives you a solid practical base in striking, and judo is a great (and often under-rated) grappling style. Systema sounds a bit esoteric, but it seems like you're getting a lot of useful things out of it. It's probably one of those things I'd have to experience to fully appreciate.



bloody_capitalist_sham Posted on Apr 28 2006, 11:14 PM

I found that TKD as a self defense is awesome.

Glad it's worked for you, but one of my AFA comrades who was a brownbelt in TKD eventually switched over to kickboxing and Muay Thai because he found that TKD hand techniques were not as effective as western boxing, and that all the high kicks from TKD were not very useful on the street because they tend to leave you off balance.

Muay Thai is a great stand up style that emphasizes practical and effective low kicks, knees and elbows that work very well in street fights.

FYI, here's a TKD vs. Muay Thai clip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=s3X6jrV1vOY&sea...ay%20thai%20tkd (http://youtube.com/watch?v=s3X6jrV1vOY&search=muay%20thai%20tkd)

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Hey thanks for that video Heavymanners :)

I have seen it before, and I think represents the total lack of understanding from World Teakwood Federation (WTF) practitioners about fighting. The TKD guy in the clip is not a martial artist, like the kick boxer is, the TKD practitioner is a sportsman, and IMO that’s where Olympic teakwood should remain.

So just to make the distinction clear, ITF taekwon do, is a self defense, not a sport.

I’m not boasting, or saying I would win, but if I had been that guy in the video I would not have fallen over so many times. Protection of yourself in ITF is where the primacy lies.

ITF, or more specifically, England’s main ITF group the UKTA, a teaching distribution where the primacy is on using your hands. The feet and high kicks are known to be less certain and the teaching usually will reflect this.

On your friend changing from TKD to kick boxing due to weakness in hand techniques of TKD (im assuming he was WTF Olympic??) sounds very reasonable and much safer for self defense. Notice how the TKD guy in the video had no GUARD!?!?!? You wouldn’t be allowed to spar if you did that at an ITF tournament.

On the kicking techniques in TKD. well, we practice High-level kicks because, if we are able to do them at any height then kicking to lower body will feel more second nature if you ever are in a street fight. We prepare for the need to kick high, but the desire to kick low.

Experience of using techniques is what counts, the different martial art plays less relevance IMO.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 11:14 PM
I did Taekwon do, ITF that is not WTF.

The guy who invented Taekwon do was pretty cool actually, but this is only what I have been told. His name is General Choi, Hong hi. He was a fierce advocate of peaceful Korean re-unification.

The ITF was created after he was expelled because he visited North Korea, as a sign of solidarity. He wanted North Koreans to share in the Korean martial art. I don’t know anything of his politics though, which is a shame.


Sorry for going off topic with ya, but it's interesting to note that one of the things that the DPRK and South Korea actually are doing cooperatively is trying to rejuvinate Korean Martial Arts.

Though TKD is now considered a Korean MA, it's actually heavily Japanese influenced. One of the things the Japanese did during colonialisation of Korea was to supress native Korean Martial Arts, and eventually TKD was developed but it was developed on Japanese styles with a hint of the old Korean stuff in it. Same with Hapkido, which is heavily influenced by Aikijitsu.

More info here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_martial_arts

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 12:20 AM
For sure, a street fight (especially between groups of people) is in many ways different from a one on one sport fight. But the flipside is that some "Reality Based" systems without sparring can leave people over-confident about their capacity to 'end a fight with a single blow', and that type of thing.
One thing about Systema - and it has been criticsed for being "too brutal" in this respect - is that you damn well finish the guy ! ;)

I agree with you about this, and I hear the Aikido types usually criticise Systema in this way, I think it was the knife disarming they where criticising, because in the video clips Vlad would always basically redirect the blade and stab the guy attacking, and they thought it was too cruel... I'm sorry, but someone tries to stab me, unless it's a good friend who went off his rocker, I'm gonna' shove it up his ass if I can! :lol:

Then again, my Systema instructor told me Krav Maga is too brutal, and I met a Krav Maga instructor not too long ago who said the same thing about Systema! :huh:

The lesson here is that people talk a lot, but we have to realize it's their interpretation, and that different MA's will work for different people and what you heard is not always true. Also, what you see might be different from what you feel. Watching training drills is a lot different from trying them out and then actually applying those techniques.


The human body can take a hell of a lot of abuse, and styles with hard sparring at least give you some sense of your capacities and of how hard it can be to actually do damage to somebody that is seriously resisting you.

Not if your wearing gloves, which we rarely ever do in Systema. In fact, I thought it was odd that they used them in that UK clip. I just got back from Systema about an hour ago, and my eye has a cut because I was hit with a staff... I didn't move fast enough. We were doing a drill were one guy is in the middle with the staff and tries to hit 4-5 others, casually, with the staff. Now, had he really wanted to hit me with the staff, a single blow could have knocked me out or even killed me. But the point of the drill is to teach you to move, and get out of the way of the weapon. You challenge yourself by moving in closer and closer, but in a real life situation, you are not going to do that - unless you really needed to take him out - you would run at first chance. This is just a traiing drill to teach you not to get hit before you can run!

I agree with you that struggling with a fully resisting opponent is different and it is very frustrating to take someone down who is really solid. We do it from time to time though, so I've been through this before... but guess what? A tree is stiff and sturdy but when it starts to fall: "temburrrr!" ;)

So guy is trying to wrestle you to the ground and with brute strenght, and you can lock up with him and get into a stenght battle, sure you can see how it feels. But if he is stronger than he will win. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out. Watch what happens though, if you grab him by the ears and force him in one direction simply by walking, etc., or maybe let him take you down but meanwhile you are ripping out his eyeball. The point is brute strenght, speed, etc. has it's limits. So if the guy is bigger, stronger, faster, etc. then you, what do you do? I would like to think something is possible.

Sure there are some people out there who could take the eye goughing, knees to the balls, etc. but it's rare, and I honestly don't think full force sparing is going to help you figure this out. I haven't seen a MA school that goes full contact, atleast not with anything goes, so how you can apply this to the street is still debatable.

And no, I'm not saying fighting with gloves / pads shouldn't be done... it's fun and great excercise, sharpens your reflexes, sensitivity, builds stamina and stenght, etc. but we have to know the difference.

I'll give another example: we did a lot fo ground fighting today, and we did this in groups of threes rather than two guys wrestling. You get a BJJ to take down a guy, lock him up and he breaks his arm, fine. But then another guy is stomping on the BJJ guy's face. Thisis the reality of the street and mass fights. Systema teaches to deal with this situation, and even how to breath / not get crushed if six guys pile on top of you....


Sounds like you've found a good mix of training though - savate should gives you a solid practical base in striking, and judo is a great (and often under-rated) grappling style.

Thanks, it really has helped... I have actually used it in a at least two situations (Toledo riot, and once to push off security gaurds when we disrupted an MPP press conference on a campus).

I agree with you that Judo is severely underrated, my main criticism of Judo / Jiu Jitsu is the Gi, you've simply got to work without it sometimes if you want it to work in the street... That being said, it really depends on the instructor and what he is teaching for. I would also argue in this case that the "sporty" aspect can get in the way. You try to do certain Judo takedowns on a guy wearing an undershirt, and it will rip in your hands! :D

That said, Judo guys are hard to take down and get on top of, and are really good at staying on top on the ground.

On the flipside, Systema teaches that sometimes you want to be on the bottom... like when someone is firing off a gun. Sometimes we will be wrestling for about 5 minutes (which feels like 5 hours) and my instructor will suddenly announce that he is going to use the whip on whoever is on top! :lol: That's when the bigger guys lose, because trying to get een a smaller guy on top of you when you've already pinned him is not easy, espcially if that small guy is goughing your eyes, ripping your ears, wrenching your skin, breaking your fingers, etc...


Systema sounds a bit esoteric, but it seems like you're getting a lot of useful things out of it. It's probably one of those things I'd have to experience to fully appreciate.

Believe me, it's really not estoric; but it is something you really have to try to get a feel of. I am willing to admit that not everyone would like it, but I don't think there is any one MA out there that fits everyone. I did carefully study before I made my descision, and I am really confident that I made the right choice. Even just the fact that my breathing is better in general, and I'm in better shape is owed to Systema!


Glad it's worked for you, but one of my AFA comrades who was a brownbelt in TKD eventually switched over to kickboxing and Muay Thai because he found that TKD hand techniques were not as effective as western boxing, and that all the high kicks from TKD were not very useful on the street because they tend to leave you off balance.

I took TKD when I was young, as I mentioned, and I disgree with you somewhat. The main thing is, certain people can kick and some can't. Even though I take Savate, I really can't kick for shit, simply because I'm a short beer bellied guy, and even if I could kick really high / long it's still not going to be that high or long! :lol:

Therefor, I only use low kicks and go for knees, balls, ankles, etc.

My dad was a bit taller and skinny, so it worked well for him.

Any high kicks will leave you off balance, so if you start using that crap in a street fight and you have not been practicing it for like 20 years you will probably get fucked up. Stick with low sneaky kicks. That said, if your high kicks are even a bit decent, your low kicks should be good.

As for comparing the punches to western boxing, some people really like to use their hands... some are fist fighters, well others prefer a different approach. If I was attacked by a boxer, I would definately want to take him down or confine his hands somehow, and kicking could be useful even in just breaking his/her posture and composure....

My main criticism of TKD was that it is too constrictive; you are supposed to block, kick, punch, etc in a certain way and maintain a certain stance. I find that it's somewhat dogmatic and also won't transfer well to a street situation, were you aren't always going to be in a stance when someone suddenly attacks you by surprise. Systema was like a fresh breath of air in the sense, for me. This might not be the same feeling for someone else who feels comfortable an reassured by certain stances, techniques, etc.

TKD did teach me decent balance, how to throw a punch/ kick with power, and what parts of the body are vunerable.


Muay Thai is a great stand up style that emphasizes practical and effective low kicks, knees and elbows that work very well in street fights.

Some MT does, some doesn't. I have weak shins, and they often hit with the shin. I wouldn't try to do some of those kicks, because if the other guy simply raises their knee, it would hurt like hell when I hit! That said, MT guys toughin' it up and kick bamboo trees with their shin. The knees and elbows are excellent. The balance, I'm not entirely convinced. The MT guys tend to fall on their asses in fights more than the Savate guys, and as with both styles the sporty aspect of it assumes the other guy can only do to you what you are doing, so you get a good grappler who suddenly has you in his paws you could be fucked. That said, MT is overall an excellent striking art that could mix well with a grappling style.

Have you seen Tony Ja? This guy is like the next Bruce Lee. He does Mauy Thai Boran (which is sort of like the more traditional version), and also mixes in some TKD in some of his kicks. This fight is from "Ong Bak Mauy Thai Warrior":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PolCX6EG6TY&search=tony%20ja

He also does some crazy stunts like Jackie Chan, only he doesn't use any safety lines, nets or matting... Ong Bak is a great movie...

There is also a military style of MT apprantly, though I have never seen it it is supposed to be M. Bison's from Street Fighter II style.... ;)


FYI, here's a TKD vs. Muay Thai clip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=s3X6jrV1vOY&sea...ay%20thai%20tkd (http://youtube.com/watch?v=s3X6jrV1vOY&search=muay%20thai%20tkd)

To be fair, the TKD guy looks like brown belt, and some of the TKD places give away belts like AOL floppies in the 1990s. TKD is such a popular MA, that it's almost a given their is going to be lots of morons out there... The Kickboxing guy clearly had the better game. That said, I think there was a TKD guy that actually did well in UFC a decade ago, before UFC had lots of rules and was basically all out fighting.

As my MA instructor says, more often than not, it's the fighter and not the style. Certain styles though, build good fighters. But of course that also requires good instructors. :)

On an odd note, the KB guy's name is Tomi Makkonen and he's Finish... At first I thought it was Tomi Makinen, the WRC driver for Mitsubishi... maybe a second hobby... nevermind.. :lol:

[armedpoet]

Indeed learning "martial arts" (apparently the correct translation is something like "study of nature") is a must for any serious revolutionary.

I studied Ninjukai Taijutsu for four years and I continue to train by myself and with friends.

One of the good quotes from fight club is that "you never know yourself until you have been in a fight".

Fighting is much more than the competive shit that we see on TV. It is a spiritual practice.

I only wish that I could convince the NVDA freaks this!


www.ninjukai.com.au

[ComradeRed]

I would strongly advise against learning Tae Kwan Do! I was out with a friend (who's about 50 pounds heavier than me) and he go into a fight with someone I know...a black belt in Tae Kwan Do.

My friend has little training in martial arts mind you, and he kicked the black belt's ass with ease after getting the bulk of the black belt's beating. :o

I asked him how he could just stand there and not feel it, he said that Tae is easy to learn because it's so weak.

I am personally more in favor of Jeet Kune Do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do) or something like Kung Fu (if you really want martial arts, that is).

Or better drunken boxing! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zui_Quan) That's what I would like to learn!

[MysticArcher]

I'm just picking up the basics perguruan pecak silat, a martial art from Indonesia. I like it though some of the movements are bit odd.

Still I think it's a solid self defense method, IMO it hasn't been sport-ified like some other martial arts.

link to the site ofr the style I practice (http://www.gerakansuci.com/)

Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pencak_Silat)

[heavymanners]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 03:47 AM
I am personally more in favor of Jeet Kune Do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do) or something like Kung Fu (if you really want martial arts, that is).

Or better drunken boxing! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zui_Quan) That's what I would like to learn!
Don't know if you were serious regarding "Drunken Boxing," but here's some people attempting to use it in matches with Kyokushin (hard contact) Karate fighters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9toRPFQoadA

A lot of Kung Fu is over-stylized and not very useful in the real world. Kung Fu schools that train people for Sanshou/Sanda (free fighting) matches are usually pretty good though. Here's a clip of some Sanshou matches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcnT3Mx-ZTU&search=sanshou

It's like kickboxing with throws and takedowns (no groundfighting though).

[ComradeRed]

Don't know if you were serious regarding "Drunken Boxing," but here's some people attempting to use it in matches with Kyokushin (hard contact) Karate fighters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9toRPFQoadA Either he or I wasn't drunk enough ;)



A lot of Kung Fu is over-stylized and not very useful in the real world. Kung Fu schools that train people for Sanshou/Sanda (free fighting) matches are usually pretty good though. Here's a clip of some Sanshou matches: Well, I was thinking more in line with (I know this is really cheesy, forgive me!) Karate Kid where he would apply what he learned from (say) painting a fence to fighting.

That is what I like of the traditional martial arts, though I am no scholar of the field myself (I do watch a lot of martial arts movies, does that count?).

Does Tae Bo count as a martial art? :P

[bezdomni]

Drunken boxing looks cool, but that guy in the clip pretty much sucked.

I could have probably kicked his ass. :-p

[Shiroryuu]

I used to do TKD and got a black belt in that art. Now, I'm doing Muay thai and jujitsu. I'm trying to become a muay thai fighter but now, I'm having problems with a shin injury.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by heavymanners+May 6 2006, 01:44 AM--> (heavymanners @ May 6 2006, 01:44 AM)
[email protected] 5 2006, 03:47 AM
I am personally more in favor of Jeet Kune Do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do) or something like Kung Fu (if you really want martial arts, that is).

Or better drunken boxing! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zui_Quan) That's what I would like to learn!
Don't know if you were serious regarding "Drunken Boxing," but here's some people attempting to use it in matches with Kyokushin (hard contact) Karate fighters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9toRPFQoadA

[/b]
I think this is important to keep in mind when watching the Karate Vs. Druken Style clip:

"They are sparring under Kyokushin Karate sparring rules."

No one from the Gung Fu side ever took any real hard licks, and did a decent job of parrying/absorbing the blows. The Karate guys looked pretty tough, and were throwing out some fast and hard kicks, which lucky for the Kung Fu guys never hit sqaur on.

I would say that what they learned would be effective on the street against the average attacker. however, we have to keep in mind most boneheads, security guards, cops, angry Zionist, etc (in other words, people who attack leftists) may not be pushovers.


A lot of Kung Fu is over-stylized and not very useful in the real world.

I agree that it would not be useful in certain situations, but I'm not convinced it would be entirely useless. In fact, mostly anything other than Tae Bo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tae_Bo) is helpful... :lol:


Kung Fu schools that train people for Sanshou/Sanda (free fighting) matches are usually pretty good though. Here's a clip of some Sanshou matches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcnT3Mx-ZTU&search=sanshou

It's like kickboxing with throws and takedowns (no groundfighting though).

Agreed. This is like China's UFC and MMA. Though the main problem I could see is that it is not going to teach you to deal with multipul attackers and street situations, or other things like injuries, flying bricks, tear gas, gun fire, etc.

That's why I'll stick to my original strategy of find three arts, one for striking, one for ground, and one for street and other specialized techniques. And you should mix in a bit o sport, because there is benefits to that (and full contact practice/sparing).

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 04:41 AM
Does Tae Bo count as a martial art? :P
Unfortunately I don't see anything "martial" about Tae Bo. Kicking the air for 20 minutes, Like many Karate/TKD schools these days do, is ueless except leg stratches and cardio.

[ComradeRed]

Unfortunately I don't see anything "martial" about Tae Bo. Kicking the air for 20 minutes, Like many Karate/TKD schools these days do, is ueless except leg stratches and cardio. Don't make me double time your ass; I have a mail-order black belt in Tae Bo and I'll use it! :lol:

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 01:06 AM
I used to do TKD and got a black belt in that art. Now, I'm doing Muay thai and jujitsu. I'm trying to become a muay thai fighter but now, I'm having problems with a shin injury.
I just watched UFC I through VII, and every single TKD guy lost against grapplers every time. Most Karate/Kickboxing guys where able to knock them out with ease... I know there was one guy that did ok in UFC, I just have to find it.

Like I said before, it mostly the fighter %80 of the time...

Here is a Karate Vs. TKD clip:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=58...935672841&q=TKD (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5802308196935672841&q=TKD)

This clip has some interesting TKD "knockouts" near the end (more like knockdowns), and the description says they are WTF.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PXS8wLLrrL0

To me it looks like most of them get knocked down well kicking high and get caught with the other kick. To be honest, I think that most of those kicks would end you up on your ass on the street, were your opponent would proceed to stomp on you. Persynally, I think most people would just take those kicks. Unless you hit the guy straight in the head it's useless to kick that high....

This guy does ITF TKD and fights in MMA style fights and appears to be a very capable fighter:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lA7MGtX3kDM

Here's a match between a Sanshou guy and a fighter that appears to use TKD/MT/KB style kicks (red trunks):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mn1hgpySMCM

Sanshou guy wins.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 12:59 AM

Unfortunately I don't see anything "martial" about Tae Bo. Kicking the air for 20 minutes, Like many Karate/TKD schools these days do, is ueless except leg stratches and cardio. Don't make me double time your ass; I have a mail-order black belt in Tae Bo and I'll use it! :lol:
You can always get a Black Belt from the infamous Ashida Kim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashida_Kim). There can never be too many fake "ninjas"! :lol:

Just check out this book review:

http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/mugei.htm

[bunk]

I would say some of the best fighting systems to learn are Krav Maga, Muay Thai or San Shou, and probably a ground fighting system like Brazilian ju-jitsu.
Original Muay Thai actually includes a lot of throws, clinching, grappling, and many more elbows and knee strikes. You are most likely however to find one that trains for Kickboxing maybe under Thai rules, but that is pretty good in itself.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 04:20 AM

Don't know if you were serious regarding "Drunken Boxing," but here's some people attempting to use it in matches with Kyokushin (hard contact) Karate fighters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9toRPFQoadA Either he or I wasn't drunk enough ;)


I was actually studying a book on Drunken Monkey style today and the Kung-Fu guys in that video appear to be using Drunken Monkey and/or Drunken Monkey Pole forms rather than Zui Quan (Drunken Fist).

The styles are different, as Drunken Monkey is a variation of the animal form rather than the "'Eight Immortals' of the Taoist Sect from Chinese Mythology of Drunken Fist."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_Kung_Fu

[Jesus Christ!]

i think kick boxing would be sufficent for me. Ill look into it over the summer.

[Nachie]

TKD is useless. Developed by Chinese peasants fighting Imperial soldiers on horseback. (hence all the outrageously high kicks)

So unless you plan on being a Chinese peasant fighting Imperial soldiers on horseback, learn something else.

[ComradeRed]

Well, those imperials have been pillaging my rice yards lately; maybe it's time to fight back.

And then build a huge wall to keep those damn barbarians out too!

[Vladislav]

I think Systema is part of the Spetsnaz(Russian special forces) training and if you fuck up then they beat the shit outta you so you don't make that mistake again.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 03:26 AM
TKD is useless. Developed by Chinese peasants fighting Imperial soldiers on horseback. (hence all the outrageously high kicks)

So unless you plan on being a Chinese peasant fighting Imperial soldiers on horseback, learn something else.
Well I agree with you that the TKD kicks are outrageously high (as they are with Tang Soo Do) your history of TKD is not factual.

TKD actually is a mix of Japanese and Korean styles developed in Korea, and is technically a Korean MA...

When the Japanese imperialists invaded they sort of rubbed out traditional Korean arts. TKD was developed on Taekyon (Korean) and Karate (Japanese). That said, both styles have Chinese origins.

Though it's not known for sure, some people think that most Oriental fighting styles originated in Africa/Egypt, made their way through India, to China, to Japan.

The first "boxing" match is said to have occured in Egypt then made popular in Greece.

Shoalin temples have been fond with old murials depicting darker skinned men teaching the lighter skinned Chinese monks; and the Animal and non-animal styles in India share many similiarties with Chinese animal and Shaolin Gung-Fu.

Every place/nation has developed some form of fighting, and I reckon that many of them have taken things from other places and nations; have developed their own styles etc.

[bed_of_nails]

The Drunken Monkey guy didnt have an ineffective style, he just really sucked. His guard was too far down most of the time, he didnt follow through with his attacks (giving them power), and he had too much rhythm (making his strikes predictable).

He is a master in that style also...

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 03:46 AM
I think Systema is part of the Spetsnaz(Russian special forces) training and if you fuck up then they beat the shit outta you so you don't make that mistake again.
Yes, there are two styles of original Systema taught in the west and urban Russia (there is more Systema out there, you just probably have to be a Kossack to learn it).

The style I learn is Rybako's System, which is traced back to one of Stalin's bodygaurds who taught him, and Rybako/Vassiliev taught to Spetsnaz.

http://www.russianmartialart.com

The other is Kodochnikov's System, which is also a good System and taught to parts of the military (not the Spetsnaz).

http://kadochnikov.tih.ru/

Also, different units of the Spetsnaz use different styles, some use Combat Sambo and then there is a H2H style that is based on Kung-Fu...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_%28martial_art%29
http://www.spetsnaz-gru.com/

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 04:31 AM
The Drunken Monkey guy didnt have an ineffective style, he just really sucked. His guard was too far down most of the time, he didnt follow through with his attacks (giving them power), and he had too much rhythm (making his strikes predictable).

He is a master in that style also...
I wouldn't say they sucked, but I'm also thinking they didn't want to hurt the Karate guys and were not used to "sparring" (i.e. fighting simply to score points rather than disable/hurt your opponent). That said, the skinny guy seemed very predictable to me. I have to disgree about their guard though, I think too many fighters spend to much time blocking air. Stirkers with hands up and far out are an invitation for grappling/shooting/joint locks... JMO though. :D

[bed_of_nails]

Originally posted by Comrade Marcel+May 10 2006, 09:37 PM--> (Comrade Marcel @ May 10 2006, 09:37 PM)
[email protected] 11 2006, 04:31 AM
The Drunken Monkey guy didnt have an ineffective style, he just really sucked. His guard was too far down most of the time, he didnt follow through with his attacks (giving them power), and he had too much rhythm (making his strikes predictable).

He is a master in that style also...
I wouldn't say they sucked, but I'm also thinking they didn't want to hurt the Karate guys and were not used to "sparring" (i.e. fighting simply to score points rather than disable/hurt your opponent). That said, the skinny guy seemed very predictable to me. I have to disgree about their guard though, I think too many fighters spend to much time blocking air. Stirkers with hands up and far out are an invitation for grappling/shooting/joint locks... JMO though. :D [/b]
We always went full-out went sparring at those levels. Our only rules were no permanent damage (IE, Knees, eyes).

You need to have your hands up at least! I am fast enough that if your hands are not in a position where you can bring up a block quickly, it will be a very short fight. I agree that extending the arms is bad, but that is a block, not on-guard. It is also very easy to grab peoples arms and break them when they try to punch at you.

[Vladislav]

dammit dammit dammit. There are no places in NSW that teach Systema!

Can someone give me some advice. Should I do Karate again or should I do Tae-kwon do? Or kick boxing?

[bed_of_nails]

Depends on the style of Karate! TKD is too tournament focused. I only study combat-heavy styles.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 05:11 AM
dammit dammit dammit. There are no places in NSW that teach Systema!

Can someone give me some advice. Should I do Karate again or should I do Tae-kwon do? Or kick boxing?
If you have already done Karate then you probably have a decent idea of how to throw a good punch/kick or two, right? What belt did you get? If you feel confident about striking even decently I would go for a grappling/ground/shooting style if possible... Where is NSW? Can you find Sambo, BJJ or Judo?

Other than that, out of the three you mentioned I would persynally pick Kick Boxing. It will give you good endurance and gives you a great cardio workout. The punches are basically from boxing, and you can easily incorporate elbows into them on your own and knees into the kicking on your own.

Also, you can find videos on other styles such as Systema which are helpful, especially if you have a partner to train with.

[Vladislav]

I got up to the second belt,yellow. I live in NSW,Australia. Yes I was thinking of taking up kick boxing. I have a proper big punching bag and I ocassionally practise some punches and kicks. I quit sport a while ago and took up smoking so I'm not 100% fit and that's why I'm thinking of taking up a sport again.

[Comrade Marcel]

Yellow belt's not "bad", but you could definately use more striking work. I think it's important to realise there is a difference between martial sport and martial art and self-defence, though they can interwine.

If you're not in great shape and not really interested on focusing on getting in amazing shape (hell, I don't really give a shit about it, it's secondary to technique for me) then find a style that doesn't require you to be of a certain shape/strenght. In the real world, people have all sorts of body shapes and capabilities, so not everyone can do high kicks (TKD), crazy spinning kicks (Capoeira) or acrobatic shit (some Wushu styles).

See if you can find a style that focuses more on the street, like Krav Maga, Combat Sambo or a military H2H style. Study things like nerve endings, and vunerable areas to hit, etc. Also with these styles take into account multipul attackers and other worse case situations can be taken into account, like unamred against a weapon. The sport styles are usually 1-on-1 focused.

But, if you are doing a sort of sport/competition oriented style, then go for something on the ground rather than a striking art if you can only choose one, as something like 80% of 1-on-1 fights will end up there anyways, even if you are a good striker some people can take hits and/or things move so fast you are both on the ground before you know it. If you know how to relax, breath, conserve your energy, move at the right time and apply choke holds/joint locks, ect., then you will most likely prevail, even against a bigger and stronger attacker.

If you can find it, watch the fight between Tank Abbot (a pretty big guy who was a real good street/pit fighter) and Oleg Taktarov (Russian/world Sambo champion - I have some tapes by him) and you'll see what I mean... For that matter, watch Royce Gracie go up against any of the many fighters he did who outweighed him and were taller.

[Vladislav]

Thanks for the help.

[Nachie]

Oops you're right; Korean not Chinese.

TKD is still pretty much useless for the kind of self-defense we're discussing, though.

I did Ninpo and would recommend it to anyone for just about anything. Then I ran outta money and now all I do is Parkour.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by bed_of_nails+May 11 2006, 05:02 AM--> (bed_of_nails @ May 11 2006, 05:02 AM)
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 10 2006, 09:37 PM

[email protected] 11 2006, 04:31 AM
The Drunken Monkey guy didnt have an ineffective style, he just really sucked. His guard was too far down most of the time, he didnt follow through with his attacks (giving them power), and he had too much rhythm (making his strikes predictable).

He is a master in that style also...
I wouldn't say they sucked, but I'm also thinking they didn't want to hurt the Karate guys and were not used to "sparring" (i.e. fighting simply to score points rather than disable/hurt your opponent). That said, the skinny guy seemed very predictable to me. I have to disgree about their guard though, I think too many fighters spend to much time blocking air. Stirkers with hands up and far out are an invitation for grappling/shooting/joint locks... JMO though. :D
We always went full-out went sparring at those levels. Our only rules were no permanent damage (IE, Knees, eyes).

You need to have your hands up at least! I am fast enough that if your hands are not in a position where you can bring up a block quickly, it will be a very short fight. I agree that extending the arms is bad, but that is a block, not on-guard. It is also very easy to grab peoples arms and break them when they try to punch at you. [/b]
I still have to disagree. Systema teaches to how to block with shoulders even. I don't think it's necessary to have your hands up unless you intend on getting into a slugging match.

Someone else can say to you, "well, I'm fast enough to parry/shoot/grapple etc. when you strike". People say and think a lot of things but whether or not they can translate into a real situation is questionable.

There are many styles that teach "stance" without the "dukes up/out", such as Systema, Aikido and Jiujitsu...

If you can find any clips of Harold Howard, a Kanadian Karate/Jiujitsu guy who fought in the UFC, watch his stance... In fact, he stood toe-to-toe with almost any slugger/striker, his downfall was the ground...

That all said, if you've been taught to keep your "dukes up" and you find it effective and comfortable, then keep doing it!

[bed_of_nails]

I advise against Kickboxing and Boxing. The blocks and punches they teach you are usually more hazardous to yourself than the opponent... Unless you are both wearing gloves.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 10:26 PM
I advise against Kickboxing and Boxing. The blocks and punches they teach you are usually more hazardous to yourself than the opponent... Unless you are both wearing gloves.
Agree. This is another example of sport getting in the way. You will most likely end up with a broken wrist if you get in a barenuckle street fight after months of training with gloves on.

Savate can have a smiliar problem, which is why there is a version called "Savate de la rue" (for the street). The good thing about Savate kicks is that it's with shoes even in the sport version, so there is no problem there really, so long as you keep the kicks low on the street. For punching, you really want to be extra careful about where you hit someone, and even when you tense before hitting (make sure you don't hit before you tense, which can happen if the guy is coming at you).

There was a guy in UFC I named Gerrad Gordue who's main style was Savate (and also Mauy thai). He cut his foot on a Sumo guys mouth in the first match when he kicked his face with the top of his foot (if you ever get cut on a mouth get it cleaned FAST), and in another match broke his hand on the guys head. He was a tough guy, and kept going to the final match to loose against Royce Gracie.

However, the punches you learn in Boxing/Kickboxing can be excellent so long as you learn to use them properly in a street situation.

[atlas]

Of course this is only for self-defense:

Well to start off a good punch/judo chop on the bridge of the nose will get their eyes to water up like crazy, and if it starts bleeding, they'll have trouble breathing. A punch in the diaphragm will knock the wind out of them so they can't breathe at all. This works with a good chop to the adams apple too, but if you hit it too hard you might kill them. Most the time they'll bend over tryiing to breathe so you can beat their kidneys to helll; it will just put them in so much pain they have trouble fighting back. To subdue them, you could use numerous pressure points, below the ear lobe behind the jaw; under the chin against the throat, but make sure you have their arms under control also, as they might try and swing at you.

If they have you from behind lift your foot, find it on the top of their knee-cap and push down as hard as you can. This might cause permenant damage if you tear the ligaments/muscle, but it works still.

And of course if you're fighting a man, the groin will take him out.


When fighting always keeps your arms up to protect your face. And watch their feet, as it's a good indicator where their next move will be (they might also try and kick).

If you're quick enough when they puch at you, you can catch their arm with your hand, and hit the outside of the elbow with the other hand and break it.



Just some tips. Try dropping by some marshal arts classes, or have a friend teach you, since you can only learn so much from descriptions. :)

[OneBrickOneVoice]

If you gets caught taggin some shit up, spray the mutha in the eyes and run from the popo

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 02:19 AM
If you gets caught taggin some shit up, spray the mutha in the eyes and run from the popo
straightforward and simple! :D

[An archist]

It's probably going to get a lot of DUH's, but when you know you're going to be in a situation where there might be trouble: dress up well: clothes that won't tear and give you some protection.
And remember: anything can serve as a weapon, just take a quik look around you to see if you can find any possible projectiles or weapons lying around.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

TKD is still pretty much useless for the kind of self-defense we're discussing, though..


I think this is a common misconception.

Olympic taekwondo (WTF) is a sport. Its is only acknowledged as a sport and this is evident from its impractibility as a self defense.

However, ITF Taekwondo, is completely diffrent from WTF. It is based on self defense not sport. The ITF and WTF traditions, have completely different techniques, movements etc.

If you want to talk about an apaulling martial art for self defense on the street look towards Jui jitsu and grappling arts. they are a Complete
joke. :lol:


Though TKD is now considered a Korean MA, it's actually heavily Japanese influenced. One of the things the Japanese did during colonialisation of Korea was to supress native Korean Martial Arts, and eventually TKD was developed but it was developed on Japanese styles with a hint of the old Korean stuff in it. Same with Hapkido, which is heavily influenced by Aikijitsu.

Yeah Choi was a karate practitioner before he developed Taekwondo while in prision.

So TKD does have Japanese roots.

The head of the UKTA, Master Rhee Ki Ha, said that its not really a problem. Japan and korea had a long bloody history together, and they have been part of each others nations. Japanese influence is in all korean life, and TKD reflects this, but shows korean character and history.

For example some of the ITF pattern meaning or representing the Korean War/38th parallel. I learnt lots about korea before i became communist, even if it has been by word of mouth from the instructor or Master Rhee.

However, much of Taekwondo's foot work came from the Korean Art Taekkyeon. Choi learnt this from his coligraphy (sp?) teacher, and gives rise to why high kickinng and complex kicking techniques exist within Taekwondo.

Before TKD, Kicking techniques above the waist were rare within martial arts.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by Janus
It's quite practical but extremely dishonorable. It is designed for women who are weaker than males. All that crotch-grabbing, crotch-smacking, crotch-kicking, and eye gouging is extremely unappealing. There is nothing dishonourable about fighting to win. If you feel your life is threatened or in danger, then you do not fight with honour you fight to beat down the other person so they never bother you again (OK, trying not to kill them I guess).

[kaaos_af]

This site has lots of good fighting and weapons tips

http://www.shadowwar.0catch.com/webdoc1.htm

[Fidel Follower]

I do Kendo the Japanesse martial art...however you only use swords, and fight with bamboo swords called shinai, wearing protective amour called bogu so unless it becomes legal to carry a sword, i will kick cappie ass... :P

But maybe helpful in a antifa riot, i could take the hammer and sycle flag off, wrap it round me like a cape, then beat the shit outta them witht the pole...what ya think?...good eh :huh: .. :D

[Dyst]

The flags do work fine as pigstickers, yeah.

I dunno much about WTF, ITM, IXU, sinuguain or kain-won-dwauek or whatever, but I think there's really a big difference if you're fighting 1 on 1 or many on many.

Usually, in serious situations you will be fighting many vs. many (at least in my experience). Here it's really important to have good teamwork and bla bla bla. If one of your mates gets injured and is lying down, try aiming for the ones who will most likely start kicking him. Weapons, such as poles, sticks, rocks or whatever is really great in these situations, and can really get you an upperhand in battle. If possible, try concealing your weapon until it's needed.

These tips are for when fighting fascists, police or rich thugs only.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 12:37 AM
And watch their feet, as it's a good indicator where their next move will be (they might also try and kick).


I have to strongly disagree with this, comrade. Watching the feet will give you a more likely chance of getting hit or getting a shoot on you. Best bet is to watch around the shoulders, as that area is very telling even for kicks. The next best thing is the eyes, however in certain situations it might be very antagonizing and you may not want that. Also, the eyes can be deceptive with some people.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by An [email protected] 14 2006, 01:35 PM
It's probably going to get a lot of DUH's, but when you know you're going to be in a situation where there might be trouble: dress up well: clothes that won't tear and give you some protection.

That's good on the one hand, protective from knives and sharp objects. On the other hand durable clothing is a grapplers dream. ;)


And remember: anything can serve as a weapon, just take a quik look around you to see if you can find any possible projectiles or weapons lying around.

There's a great Systema video on improvised weapons (http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2&products_id=35).

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by Fidel [email protected] 24 2006, 09:22 PM
I do Kendo the Japanesse martial art...however you only use swords, and fight with bamboo swords called shinai, wearing protective amour called bogu so unless it becomes legal to carry a sword, i will kick cappie ass... :P

But maybe helpful in a antifa riot, i could take the hammer and sycle flag off, wrap it round me like a cape, then beat the shit outta them witht the pole...what ya think?...good eh :huh: .. :D
Definately good practice for using weapons and keeping fit. You should consider some H2H/grappling to go with it though. :)

[razboz]

HEy every one! Drop all those reactionary militaristic sports. Practice the only one martial art born and bred of a guerrilla movement: Vo VI Nam Viet Vo Dao hailing from the depths of the Vietnamese jungle! very practical sport. YOu learn to defend yourselves against guns, rifles, spears, swords, knives, horsemen, large groups of drunk people and much more! You also learn how to use spears, bainoted rifle (a bit outdated i know) spears, knives and swords! How exciting! find your nearest club!

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 12:45 PM
HEy every one! Drop all those reactionary militaristic sports. Practice the only one martial art born and bred of a guerrilla movement: Vo VI Nam Viet Vo Dao hailing from the depths of the Vietnamese jungle! very practical sport. YOu learn to defend yourselves against guns, rifles, spears, swords, knives, horsemen, large groups of drunk people and much more! You also learn how to use spears, bainoted rifle (a bit outdated i know) spears, knives and swords! How exciting! find your nearest club!
Is that one of the arts listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_marti...i.E1.BB.87t_Nam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_martial_arts#Vietnamese_Martial_Arts_.28V. C3.B5_Thu.E1.BA.ADt_Vi.E1.BB.87t_Nam)

[razboz]

[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vovinam]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vovinam[/URL

This very one. Its pretty flexible and often changes. Usually as part of your exam to become a yellow belt (thats about midway up to the top) you are required to come up with some new techniques. This means that it covers many practical and realistic situations like being mûgged with a knife or being put into an arm lock (the kind the police uses...). What i forgot to mention is that Combat plays a very important role in VoViNam. Unlike in Judo and Karate there are no restraints on what you can and cant do, short of actually punching or elbowing their face. This is really good because it really teaches you how to act under the pressure of somone wanting beat the living dailights out of you.

[subcal]

Ive done a PPCT (pressure point control ) coarse on how the oppressors attempt to control the rebelling masses (us)

I've also done a SKD (spontaneous knife defence) coarse (to pretoect from all non-ranged edge weapons) and a weapons retension coarse for keeping force multiplying strike weapons (like batons and staffs) when someone is trying to disarm you.

I'm willing to share what I know if anyone is willing to learn.

PM me and I am sure I can start scanning / pdf'ing materials from the coarses.

[CCCPneubauten]

I've got one question, I'm not the strongest guy in the world, infact I'm kinda 'weak' next to most I'd say, so here is my qestion...even at my current status could I still do martial arts? Or should I work out first?

[Pawn Power]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 10:43 PM
I've got one question, I'm not the strongest guy in the world, infact I'm kinda 'weak' next to most I'd say, so here is my qestion...even at my current status could I still do martial arts? Or should I work out first?
You don't need to work out to start martial arts. Most likley you will do some strength training during classes. The people i know that have taken years off martial arts are not incredibly strong, but tough and quick.

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 06:37 PM
Of course this is only for self-defense:

Well to start off a good punch/judo chop on the bridge of the nose will get their eyes to water up like crazy, and if it starts bleeding, they'll have trouble breathing. A punch in the diaphragm will knock the wind out of them so they can't breathe at all. This works with a good chop to the adams apple too, but if you hit it too hard you might kill them. Most the time they'll bend over tryiing to breathe so you can beat their kidneys to helll; it will just put them in so much pain they have trouble fighting back. To subdue them, you could use numerous pressure points, below the ear lobe behind the jaw; under the chin against the throat, but make sure you have their arms under control also, as they might try and swing at you.

If they have you from behind lift your foot, find it on the top of their knee-cap and push down as hard as you can. This might cause permenant damage if you tear the ligaments/muscle, but it works still.

And of course if you're fighting a man, the groin will take him out.


When fighting always keeps your arms up to protect your face. And watch their feet, as it's a good indicator where their next move will be (they might also try and kick).

If you're quick enough when they puch at you, you can catch their arm with your hand, and hit the outside of the elbow with the other hand and break it.



Just some tips. Try dropping by some marshal arts classes, or have a friend teach you, since you can only learn so much from descriptions. :)
You forgot a couple things. If the person is bending over to try and breathe grab him by the back of the head/neck (for obvious control) and knee him in the face. Another good place to strike, and probably only good if you have decent speed at blocking and striking, is the collarbone. Out of curiousity I've lightly tapped myself on the collarbone and that fuckin hurts. Imagine a good punch, elbow strike, etc.

[ComradeRed]

...And then, when he's down, hit him over the head with a banjo.

I saw it happen once, and the fella went down. :cool:

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I've got one question, I'm not the strongest guy in the world, infact I'm kinda 'weak' next to most I'd say, so here is my qestion...even at my current status could I still do martial arts? Or should I work out first?


What martial arts are you planning to start with?

I don't think you should worry; it shouldn't be a problem. At least when I have been training Greco-Roman Wrestling, you go into pairs, and you will be asked to find someone at your size. When you do, and if you are both comfortable with it, you will probably often go against this guy in the near future.

There should be no problem of learning techniques due to being slightly physically weak, and that's what's really important. Muscles/strength you can add gradually.

Even if you can't find one at your size right at the start, it can be useful to "get your ass kicked" once in a while. And the more experienced will probably be more than happy to help you out :)

[Whitten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 03:43 AM
I've got one question, I'm not the strongest guy in the world, infact I'm kinda 'weak' next to most I'd say, so here is my qestion...even at my current status could I still do martial arts? Or should I work out first?
Martial arts teach technique, your physical condition is irrelivent to learning the art. In a real combat situation, physical strength would be adventageous, ofcourse, but thats a real fight, not training.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 03:43 AM
I've got one question, I'm not the strongest guy in the world, infact I'm kinda 'weak' next to most I'd say, so here is my qestion...even at my current status could I still do martial arts? Or should I work out first?
Working out might actually interfere with your martial arts ability, depending on what style you do. It's a good idea to know what muscles to work out specifically. Working out for bulky muscles, for example, makes you look big but actually causes tension and won't make you hit any harder. It may make you look big and scary, but not everyone has the type of body that can build that type of muscle mass.

When you start training in martial arts, get your instructor to give you advise on how you should work out, if you want. Also, most martial arts will have at least some stretching and warm up excercises which you could of course do on your own.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 07:22 AM
Ive done a PPCT (pressure point control ) coarse on how the oppressors attempt to control the rebelling masses (us)

I've also done a SKD (spontaneous knife defence) coarse (to pretoect from all non-ranged edge weapons) and a weapons retension coarse for keeping force multiplying strike weapons (like batons and staffs) when someone is trying to disarm you.

I'm willing to share what I know if anyone is willing to learn.

PM me and I am sure I can start scanning / pdf'ing materials from the coarses.
That sounds like some interesting stuff, I'm definately interested to see it.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Comrade Marcel+Jul 21 2006, 12:16 AM--> (Comrade Marcel @ Jul 21 2006, 12:16 AM)
[email protected] 17 2006, 07:22 AM
Ive done a PPCT (pressure point control ) coarse on how the oppressors attempt to control the rebelling masses (us)

I've also done a SKD (spontaneous knife defence) coarse (to pretoect from all non-ranged edge weapons) and a weapons retension coarse for keeping force multiplying strike weapons (like batons and staffs) when someone is trying to disarm you.

I'm willing to share what I know if anyone is willing to learn.

PM me and I am sure I can start scanning / pdf'ing materials from the coarses.
That sounds like some interesting stuff, I'm definately interested to see it. [/b]
Same, please scan/upload whatever you can with whatever time you have :)