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bcbm
14th April 2006, 01:29
[This was originally written in response to some posts on the Marxism
mailing list and in particular in response to sectarians who are
hyper-critical of Evo Morales, etc. References below to "this list" are to
the Marxism list...]

* * *

It's very interesting seeing that comrades who often seem to have all the
answers for Latinos everywhere else in this continent have so little of
substance to say in analyzing the biggest mass movement in many decades when
it explodes onto the political stage of their home turf.

I say the biggest in many decades, but just by demonstration size alone,
you'd have to say the biggest mass movement the United States has seen.
EVER.

When was there ever a demonstration of a million people in Los Angeles? One
of half a million in Dallas? Of nearly 100,000 in Atlanta? When was there
ever a series of scores of protests in one month like we have seen since
mid-March when Chicago broke the dam?

One would have hoped that it would have provoked a more thoughtful response
than whipping up leaflets calling for a $15 minimum wage that one of the
non-Latino sectarians on the Marxism list proudly boasted about having
distributed at a Los Angeles demonstration. (That's what I love about
ultralefts: millions of immigrants stage marches for dignity and these
comrades immediately reduce things to bourgeois economist trade-unionism,
imagining that by adding one or two zeros to be bureaucracy's
nickel-and-dime demands, that have somehow taken it to a higher level and
imbued it with revolutionary content).

Because the situation cries out for applying the tools of Marxist analysis
to orient ourselves. And this is what I believe flows from such an analysis:

There is no task more urgent than drawing together WITHIN the Latino
movement a militant, uncompromising, legalization for all left wing. And on
the terms of the issues posed by this movement itself, not with demands
parachuted in via ultraleft leafletters, whether of the $15/hour minimum
wage or the "drive out the Bush regime" variety, which I saw here in Atlanta
huddled at the edge of the Monday rally intensely discussing whether or not
they should hand out their leaflets and circulate their petitions, because a
couple of the younger women comrades were telling an older male that they
just didn't feel comfortable doing that there.

Trying to recruit to overwhelmingly white, or even strongly multinational
left groups can easily become a DIVERSION from and an obstacle to the
immediate, urgent task of cohering a left wing within this movement. It is a
secondary priority that should take a back seat, and if you're unsure on
just how to do it right, wait. Because seeing a movement like this develop
and immediately trying to recruit out of it, without being able to offer
those you seem to attract any real analysis, understanding or perspective
for this concrete struggle is, in my view, opportunism.

And even the groups that have tried to engage with the movement on its own
terms seem unable to really understand even fairly basic things. For
example, I saw at one of the protests on TV that there were quite a few
printed placards calling for "Amnesty" signed by, if I remember right,
ANSWER.

Amnesty is not a word much of the movement is putting forward, it hasn't
caught on, and for a very simple reason. Amnesty implies you've done
something wrong. And Latino immigrants don't feel they've done anything
wrong. It isn't something that's been a big discussion in the movement, it's
just a word that hasn't caught on because it doesn't express the sentiments
people have. It doesn't "feel" quite right. Legalization, full rights,
that's the sort of way people in the movement tend to speak about this.

The enemies of the immigrant rights movement have tried to frame the issue
in terms of "amnesty," and if for no other reason it is sometimes also used.
But for them, it is a part of their very conscious campaign to frame the
issue in terms of what to do with these millions of "criminals," these
"illegals."

So while I appreciate the sentiments of the radical group that put out the
amnesty placards, I would urge them to stop. I suspect they don't understand
the character of the movement or the feelings of its participants.

Why is "Sí se puede" the most commonly heard chant on these demonstrations?
It isn't a demand, and on its face, it could mean anything. Yet it obviously
means something very important to the MILLIONS that have now awakened to
political life and struggle. Try to *understand* the actual movement just as
it is.

Then there's the Troops Out Now Coalition, which appears to have
unilaterally issued a call for a May 1 rally in Union Square in New York. If
that is the case, then this must be rejected as rank opportunism. This is
the sort of arrogance that has had such disastrous results in the antiwar
movement. And when dealing with a Latino movement, this idea that a
non-Latino group should be calling rallies and controlling the stage
undermines the very core character of the movement itself. Whatever the
intentions, it is a direct attack and challenge to the integrity of the
movement.

I'm sure there are all sorts of problems in the Latino immigrant rights
movement in New York. We have them here in Atlanta, despite having had a
better start in cohering a genuine left wing of the movement than many other
areas. Mostly white or even strongly multinational left groups should get it
out of their heads that they can somehow "intervene" and solve the problems
of leadership of this movement. They can't. And their trying to do so will
only complicate things further. The movement as a whole, and especially its
radical wing, needs solid reliable allies, not attempts by outside forces to
substitute themselves for the leadership that must emerge from within the
community. All such attempts are not only doomed to fail, but run the risk
of undercutting the process of the formation of a leadership from within the
movement itself.

These sorts of issues highlight the importance of having a solid, grounded
class analysis and Marxist understanding of what is going on. An
understanding especially of the *national* character of the movement and the
*nationalist* sentiments that drive it is essential --and there seems to be
a fair bit of NOT even seeing this going around--, but that is not enough.
You have to understand the actual social forces, class forces that find
expression in and through this upsurge in the community and how they
interact with broader forces.

The absolutely all-encompassing character of this movement in the Latino
communities is the result of a confluence of class forces that is not likely
to last.

You have the overall neoliberal drive for world domination, redoubled with a
vengeance after 9/11, which breeds and emboldens white supremacist forces;
and from that, the aggressiveness and inroads and victories scored by the
nativist wing of the Republican Party, the offensiveness of racist
hatemongers like CNN's Lou Dobbs and so on.

But you also have the divisions within the Republicans between the more
mainstream corporatists (Bush-Cheney) and right wing demagogues
(Sensenbrenner-Dobbs-Tancredo), the pusillanimous continuous caving in by
the "liberal" democrats and the stampede for cover from the "mainstream" DLC
Democrats (with honorable exceptions, and more from the Congressional Black
Caucus than the "Hispanic" Caucus, it must be admitted); and within it all
the ACTUAL ruling class expressing its class interests by hiring and
sheltering undocumented workers by the MILLIONS.

And you have this mass of Latino immigrants, both documented and un-, but
especially the undocumented, pushed out of their own countries by the same
neoliberal offensive that is attacking them here, who for years have been
beat up and denigrated as "illegals," as job-stealing, welfare-cheating,
diseased-carrying, school-budget-busting, terrorist sub-humans. Who are
hired to build roads and then denied the right to have drivers licenses. Who
prepare the food served on airplane but are not allowed to board them.

But within the Latino community, you have something else, you have
middle-class and even some small capitalist layers. Usually subservient to
their master's voice, THIS layer has moved, partly as a result from their
own status as Latinos --including having been undocumented (in Atlanta we
have a couple of ex-"illegal" millionaires), partly from the pressure from
below, from their own workers, friends, and family, but also and very
importantly from their own *class* interests.

Stalin says in the famous 1913 Bolshevik pamphlet on the national question
that the heart and soul of the nationalism of the bourgeoisie is their home
market. That is the same here, even though it manifests in ways which the
Bolsheviks couldn't have imagined (and even though I disagree with the
Bolshevik 1913 position of reducing the national question to just the
interests of the bourgeois forces).

What has made this a MASS movement is the media, and most of all the radio.
And what made it possible for all these DJ's and radio personalities to go
all-out for the movement is that despite their middle class status, they are
also, almost to a person, immigrants, and immigrants who came here as adults
(very few people can work in Spanish-language media at a professional level,
just from a language point of view, unless they were educated in Latin
America: otherwise their Spanish is too "foreign," too corrupted by
English). But also, because their bosses did NOT tell them to lay off, on
the contrary, they egged them on. And their advertisers ALSO didn't
complain, but said "right on" to the brothers. (And overwhelmingly they are
"brothers" -- there are very few women DJ's).

Frankly, what Nativo Lopez of MAPA told Lou Dobbs is the God's honest truth:
if you had to name one person who was responsible for uniting the Latino
community, that would be Sensenbrenner. The vicious, racist "Latinos have no
rights the white man is bound to respect" bill he pushed through the House
in December convinced bourgeois Latinos and middle layers that their trust
in the fundamental capitalist rationality of U.S. politics was misplaced in
this case. And if you look at the bill, it is simply the legal framework for
a pogrom.

In desperation, these traditionally "moderate" forces have turned to the
Latino working class, and to the tactics associated historically with the
working class movement, marches and rallies, economic boycotts and --in
essence-- strikes.

And in doing so they have unleashed a proletariat worthy of the name. One
that realizes that it must not "permit itself to be treated as rabble," one
that instinctively feels that it "needs its courage, its self-confidence,
its pride and its sense of independence even more than its bread." One that
calls its events marches for dignity, not marches for amnesty.

The interactions of this Latino proletariat with the other social classes
isn't as straightforward as people might think. This is not exactly "class
against class," it is much more *complicated.*

One of the untold stories --there must be thousands of them by now
nationwide-- of the Latino movement here in Atlanta is that when we held the
day without immigrants protest here on March 24, a lot of the union members
at a big commercial laundry walked out from the plant and crippled
production. I know the head of that plant's local. She is undocumented, a
mother who is supporting children she left with their grandparents back in
Mexico that she hasn't seen for years because the border crossing has become
too dangerous and she can't risk her job.

A higher up in her union went to bat for the workers, and got them all off
with a verbal warning. They were also negotiating significant participation
by workers from that plant in the Monday protest, although I don't know the
outcome of that.

You would think the reaction of the plant management would have been to
immediately fire everyone involved in what was in essence a wildcat but you
would be wrong. The plant management and company involved have been more
lenient because, of course it's in their interests not just to keep their
workers relatively happy, but more fundamentally, because it's in their
interests to keep their workers period. And what the laundry capitalists see
as their right to exploit this labor is under attack, and from their point
of view the action of these workers in defending their staying in this
country is a defense also of the right of the laundry bosses to exploit
them.

I suspect the compañeras who led and took part this action did not
necessarily think this through in such explicit terms to figure out whether
they could get away with it. They acted on instinct but mostly driven by the
attacks against them from the politicians, which as they see it, leave them
no choice but to fight back, and now that the opportunity to do so has
presented itself, they are willing to take risks to do so.

It is important to *understand* the various class forces and interests in
play to orient yourself in this movement. There is on the organized
socialist left very little understanding, and in what's being reported,
there is quite a bit of arrogance.

* * *

The movement that has erupted is clearly and beyond any possible confusion a
*national* movement, a multi-class movement by oppressed people against
their oppression as a people. Very significantly, it is a NEW movement.
There has never been a generically Latino movement before. This is a product
of the evolution of the last 30 or 40 years, the huge continuing immigration
and the development of a "national" (meaning Latino, as opposed to
nationwide) media in Spanish. I went over some of the factors leading to the
development of a generically "Latino" (as distinct from a specifically
Cuban, Puerto Rican, Mexican or Chicano) national identity several months
ago in a paper I think I posted to this list (as well as others) and can
send to anyone who is interested. [It was originally in our Soli DB.]

But this "Latino" movement is also an expression of the national movement of
Latin America as a whole, of the collection of Balkanized nations that are
slowly waking up to the reality that they must become a single nation
because that is the only way to deal with the problem they all share, U.S.
imperialism.

I don't mean to imply by this that there hasn't also been a rise in
specifically Chicano (or Mexican, or Mexican-American) nationalist sentiment
as a result. Quite the contrary, the signs are everywhere of a big upsurge
in nationalist sentiment of the main immigrant nationality groupings. But as
comrade Evo Morales and the Bolivian indigenous movement teaches, the
nationalism of the oppressed is fundamentally *different* from the
nationalism of the oppressor in this regard. "No es excluyente" -- it
doesn't exclude. You can be indigenous, and Guatemalan, and Mesoamerican,
and Latin American, and a part of the Third World, a person of color.

Being white (Anglo) in the "American" sense is completely different. That is
an exclusive identity, that's the whole point to whiteness, white supremacy.
As Malcolm X put it, in the United States "white means boss."

And because it IS a national movement, the right approach is to support the
national-revolutionary forces, the coalescence of a left wing in the
movement that can become over time a proletarian wing of the movement,
especially as it vies for leadership with bourgeois and reformist forces.

Now, in a direct sense this is NOT a job for Anglo comrades, except insofar
as it affects their general political stance in terms of propaganda and
alliances. Comrades from other oppressed nationalities can perhaps play more
of a role, but even then, overwhelmingly, this can only really be done by
Latino militants and activists. That is the real challenge, to cohere the
left wing that ALREADY exists as scattered activists in this movement, and
especially the fresh forces coming forward.

It is a pressing, urgent task. The conditions of this upsurge cannot last
for a long time. The *class* interests of the Latino proletariat and other
forces coincide only in part, and most strongly in the negative: against
criminalization of immigrants, against the Sensenbrenner bill.

But when it comes to what people are for, or at least willing to settle for,
it is a different matter.

All sorts of forces were willing to support the phony "compromise" cooked up
by that gusano Mel Martinez a week ago and accepted by Kennedy and the
Democrats that would have divided the undocumented between those who could
PROVE they'd been here more than five years and the rest that couldn't and
had to go back to Mexico and get "legally" readmitted.

This is the most important dividing line between the emerging
revolutionary-national forces, proletarian in all but name, and the
bourgeois forces: legalization for all or for some.

Another very important issue intimately tied up with this is the guest
worker program. The revolutionary national forces are all for letting "guest
workers" into the United States -- provided they get the same rights
everyone else gets when they move here, specifically, permanent residency
and U.S. citizenship under the same conditions and timetables as, say, a
Rupert Murdoch.

We *reject* a new Bracero program. Latino bourgeois forces especially are
basically okay with a new bracero program, which is essentially an attempt
at a continuation of what has been the real U.S. immigration policy
--letting immigrants in, but with second class status, as "illegals"-- in a
more controlled way and under a new name (what the Latino capitalists object
to in the whole drive by the ultrarightists is moving Latino undocumented
immigrants from second class status to no status whatsoever, and possibly
driving them out of the country. Latino bourgeois forces object because it
undercuts the markets many of them rely on as well as increases their legal
risks for exploiting this labor).

I should make clear here that when referring to Latino capitalists, I'm
referring mostly not to the odd individual like the Hispanic head of
microprocessor company AMD, but rather to those whose businesses revolve
around the community, at least to a large extent. This includes, in a sense,
even some large Anglo-owned businesses, who, for example, own community
media, but whose Latino executives in charge of a radio or newspaper have
been given sufficient autonomy to respond to this situation. And those
executives would be among those who I'm referring to).

Nor is this strictly speaking just small capitalists, it involves some
significant forces in the bourgeois world, such as the Mexican and
Venezuelan TV monopolies behind Univision.

>From this it should be clear why grouping together a broad left current
within the immigrant rights movement around a few essential points is the
central strategic priority TODAY. Because the multi-class alliance with
these bourgeois forces is unlikely to last. There will either be a new
rotten compromise cooked up when Congress reconvenes in a couple of weeks,
OR the Democrats will decide this is a great club to beat the Republicans
over the head with, reject all compromises, and seek to divert the movement
into purely bourgeois electoralism, urging us to compromise our demands THAT
way, by subordinating them to getting "friends" elected.

That electoralist line is one that *excludes* the overwhelming majority of
participants in the movement, not just the undocumented but legal immigrants
also who don't have the right to vote. On average, it takes about two
decades for half of the immigrants admitted in a given year to become
citizens, and many never do. So it will be harder to divert this movement
into electoralism. But you could already see the effort being made,
especially in the speeches at the Washington, D.C. rally.

The left instead will want to keep the heat on for legalization for
everyone, and for expanded working class immigrants in the future being
treated the same as bourgeois immigrants, in other words, for Latino
immigrants being treated the same as white immigrants.

There is a need for the most conscious working class Latino fighters to
IMMEDIATELY fuse with --not multinational revolutionary groups-- but the
most advanced and grass-roots-based and oriented wing of the ACTUAL movement
in their localities, and to start coordinating and building ties between
those forces in different localities.

Four points can serve as an initial platform or program for this left wing.

A) Legalization for all; a "road to citizenship" on the same conditions as
all other immigrants.

B) Yes to massively expanded normal immigration from Latin America on the
same conditions as all other immigrants; no to a new Bracero program;

C) The Latino community and especially the immigrants must own and run this
movement; YES to support from Black and white and non-profit and trade union
and political party (even Republican) allies, NO to non-Latino control over
our destiny and our movement.

D) For continuing with the campaign of massive public protests.

In the medium term (in this case, months, not days or weeks) the
revolutionary left needs to do a lot of hard thinking. Historically, the
idea of recruitment to left groups out of these sorts of movements has not
resulted in building strong revolutionary organizations in the United States
but rather to isolate and fragment the leadership of the social movements.
The kind of political movement that needs to be built is one that is more
like the MAS, that serves to bring together the leading militant of the
social movements rather than scattering them into a half dozen narrow sects.

There is a need for a new political space where leading activists can begin
to discuss and think through the strategic challenges that are posed as the
actual movements develop. There is no chance the currently existing
organized socialist groups can be that space, there is no room in them,
neither socially, culturally nor politically. The discussion (or lack of it)
within this list and I believe also within the organized groups shows that
the tendency of the socialist left is to have way too many answers and way
too few questions.

Of particular importance is that this new space make possible the REAL
leading participation of militants from the oppressed nationalities and
especially women. If you go to myspace.com, and look at the videos of the
student high school walkouts from all over the country that have been posted
there, the very strong impression you get is that the majority of the
leadership and participants in the movement are young women. And that is
certainly true of the overall immigrant rights movement in my area, where
women are the central core of leaders and activists.

The traditional Left has a very serious problem of reproducing the patterns
of power and privilege from broader society. The forms of the meetings, the
style of discourse and debate, the emphasis on the production of literature
accessible really only to a very few in a movement like this, all of that
needs to be re-examined in a self-critical spirit. And the practice of left
groups that are overwhelmingly not Latino coming into this movement with
their own sectarian leaflets and agendas with which to mold and shape the
actual movement needs to be self-critically examined from this angle also.

Joaquín

redstar2000
14th April 2006, 04:49
The most interesting (and encouraging!) aspect of bbbg's post is its emphasis on the primacy of the Latino masses to formulate the goals of its movement.

He is quite right when he speaks of all kinds of Anglo "left groups" gathering around to pounce and recruit...and how this is less than helpful. :lol:

It would indeed be far better to wait until coherent left groups emerge among Latinos...and then talk with them as equals to see what might be done in common struggle.

But left groups in the U.S. are not exactly famous for their respect for mass movements. :(

They see themselves as "providers of leadership". :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Rawthentic
16th April 2006, 01:43
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 07:58 PM
The most interesting (and encouraging!) aspect of bbbg's post is its emphasis on the primacy of the Latino masses to formulate the goals of its movement.

He is quite right when he speaks of all kinds of Anglo "left groups" gathering around to pounce and recruit...and how this is less than helpful. :lol:

It would indeed be far better to wait until coherent left groups emerge among Latinos...and then talk with them as equals to see what might be done in common struggle.

But left groups in the U.S. are not exactly famous for their respect for mass movements. :(

They see themselves as "providers of leadership". :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif
yeah, kinda like the RCP and the Bob Avakian worshippers. I went to a march in California ( city is disclosed for security reasons) and I met with an RCP official selling newspapers, Draft Programmes, and DVDs ( which I all bought). But the RCP will not raise consciousness for the people, they must and wil do it for themselves if it is to be a real communist movement. Leninist parties will really fuck it up.

Severian
16th April 2006, 10:26
There certainly is a strong Latino nationalist trend to these actions; it's reflected in people bringing the flags of many home countries (not just Mexico) to immigrants' rights rallies. (This is probably more evident on the East Coast than in, say, L.A.)

There is, however, also some participation by other immigrants - something which the writer completely overlooks. None of these coalitions are exclude non-Latinos AFAIK; so it's certainly possible for non-Latinos to participate in the immediate discussion of goals and direction the writer talks about.

The class dynamics within the movement are also well-analyzed, I think. And the writers' correct that the immediate question is "legalization for all" versus support to Kennedy-McCain or to the Democratic Party generally. I'm pleased to say that "Legalization for all" does seem to be rising in prominence among the demands.

The stuff about a new catchall multi-trend party vs the "sects" is pretty typical for the Marxism list, and really the least interesting part of the post. The only unusual feature here is that this is explicitly recognized as the social-democratic model of organization which it is. With the comparison to the Bolivian MAS, which is a social-democratic group. It's the usual thing, just justified in the name of Latino nationalism, while Louis Proyect for example would claim it was Lenin's perspective.

Anyway, the attempted catchall parties so far have an even less impressive record of actual organization than the "sects".

Entrails Konfetti
18th April 2006, 15:50
Well this call comes at a tough time when leftist organizations themselves are trying to make coherent movements away from the sway of the democrats.

I think it would be wrong to try to recruit at these demonstrations, however you need to raise a banner to represent.

I just hope the representation isn't taken as something unsupportive to the proletarian-immigrant cause.

Valmont
19th April 2006, 06:32
The 'illegal alien' issue is not one of worker's rights, it's not one of Mestizo sovereignty, it's not a political ideology or racial issue. The illegals are called 'illegal aliens' because their presence on US soil is a CRIME. We have laws, and regardless what any over-arching 'prole revolution' requires, these people shouldn't even be here in the first place.

Think of it this way- say you're sitting at home and a stranger sets up camp in your front yard, then another, and another...then they bring their families along...then they come to your door and demand you give them food and welfare and then they demand to be adopted as part of YOUR family! Of course, you don't want them in your yard in the first place- it's YOUR YARD. All else is predicated on that single issue- they should not be there in the first place; just because you don't rush out the door with guns blazing it doesn't mean what they are doing is right or legal. WHen you tell them to leave- as is your right- you expect them to leave. PERIOD. It's the same thing happeneing on a national scale, pure and simple.

I have absolutely nothing against people wanting to immigrate to the US- I welcome those who obey our laws and have their applications processed ACCORDING TO THE LAW. Once they have done so and are American citizens, I'll be the first to grab my rifle and stand beside them AS AMERICANS. But the minute somebody walks into my house uninvited and begins making demands- and not even in English!- we have a real problem.

I don't care where they come from, I don't care how bad conditions are in their home country- if they want to come here to be Americans, fine, I'm all for it as long as they do it according to our laws. If they just want to come here to work, fine- but don't expect ANY handouts such as free health care, the ability to obtain bank loans or driver's licenses or any other government service paid for by our hard-earned tax dollars.

Note that this is my position regardless of political affiliation- it doesn't matter whether I'm communist, socialist, or what have you. The issue is a LEGAL issue and it's impact on national security. We've got 7,000+ border-jumpers coming in the country each DAY- does the government know who they are? Do they know if any individuals on the terrorist watch list are slipping in? Do YOU know? Of course not, and we won't until we seal the border and control access to our nation's wealth.

Does this position make me something other than a left-winger, communist, or socialist? Perhaps, on a theoretical level. But consider this- what would Presidente Fox of Mexico do if the situation were reversed? He'd call out the Army, no doubt. What would Castro do? What would (gulp) Stalin have done? Bullets and bayonets, I guarantee you.

bcbm
19th April 2006, 16:53
Fuck the law and the border. I'm not going to hold bullshit laws against people forced to immgrate because of US imperialism.

Dreckt
19th April 2006, 23:19
The illegals are called 'illegal aliens' because their presence on US soil is a CRIME.

A crime according to who? US law? So if the law is changed so that you are not permitted to have sex, would you still follow it?

Laws are made to serve a purpose. The greatest point in laws is to keep workers working for their masters, and protecting the accumulated wealth of the overclass. Hell, laws aren't even created by the people, last I heard...


We have laws, and regardless what any over-arching 'prole revolution' requires, these people shouldn't even be here in the first place.

So now America is somehow yours? Killing indiginous indians when you wanted land and recourses was completely okay because there was no law, invading other countries is okay, but when people enter your country it somehow becomes the worst crime in human history?


Think of it this way- say you're sitting at home and a stranger sets up camp in your front yard, then another, and another...then they bring their families along...then they come to your door and demand you give them food and welfare and then they demand to be adopted as part of YOUR family!

Not the same thing. You mean that they take your money, which is the whole problem. In communism, there are no money - people work for each other. If you were fleeing from a country in war to one without war, wouldn't you like the people there to help you?

It is always easy to dismiss poor people and immigrants when you yourself are not one of them.


Once they have done so and are American citizens, I'll be the first to grab my rifle and stand beside them AS AMERICANS.

Communism isn't only for Americans. It is an idea for all people.


The issue is a LEGAL issue and it's impact on national security. We've got 7,000+ border-jumpers coming in the country each DAY- does the government know who they are? Do they know if any individuals on the terrorist watch list are slipping in?

Another lie of the very capitalistic system you live in. They want you to think that America just started to exist, got successful in economic terms, and now everybody wants to kill Americans and immigrate into the US because all jobs are there.

You got it all wrong. These "aliens" don't take your jobs - they are given jobs by the very American employer. Why? Because illegal immigrants have no rights whatsoever! The employer can decide how much to pay, how to treat them, how long they should work - and so on. The reason for this is because the "aliens" can not go to the US state and file a complain, or sue, or demonstrate. It is this your employer wants with you - completely obidient without means to do anything about it. This happens, amongst other countries, in China and Vietnam.

Instead of building a massive huge wall the lenght of Mexico itself, which will cost you billions of dollars, huge punishments should be given to those who employ the "aliens". People will not go to a country where they can not be given a job.

And terrorists? Why do you think the terrorists want to destroy America? They had a bad day and chose your country? It just happened?

The very reason terrorism is directed at someone is because that someone has done something wrong to another someone. In this case, the US poured billions of dollars and CIA operatives into coups in South America - Chile, Nicaruagra and even Cuba. When later corrupted dictators took control of the countries, the economy naturally collapsed. And when this happens, people tend to migrate into countries where there are jobs and better conditions for life.

Besides this, would you really throw 11 million people out of your country?


Does this position make me something other than a left-winger, communist, or socialist? Perhaps, on a theoretical level.

No communist, or a socialist for that matter, believes in countries. Countries work just like corporations. They are owned by a minority who can set plans and regulations. In reality, countries are just a figment of our imagination.


But consider this- what would Presidente Fox of Mexico do if the situation were reversed?

He'd probably be very happy, on the contrary. The more people who work for Mexico the better economy Mexico will have. Then, there are a very high rate of crime in Mexico, which is to be eliminated if things are to work.


What would Castro do?

Castro would probably welcome people - the reason he is not doing this, at least not in such a large scale as the US, is because Cuba do not have resources to feed another 11 million people. Again, this is to blame on the US. Then, the US is a First World country, and Cuba is a Third World country, so naturally people choose to live in a country with better quality.

redstar2000
20th April 2006, 03:43
Originally posted by Valmont+--> (Valmont)But consider this- what would Presidente Fox of Mexico do if the situation were reversed?[/b]

Here's the answer to that one...


AP
Few Protections for Migrants to Mexico

TULTITLAN, Mexico (AP) -- Considered felons by the government, these migrants fear detention, rape and robbery. Police and soldiers hunt them down at railroads, bus stations and fleabag hotels. Sometimes they are deported; more often officers simply take their money.

While migrants in the United States have held huge demonstrations in recent weeks, the hundreds of thousands of undocumented Central Americans in Mexico suffer mostly in silence.

The level of brutality Central American migrants face in Mexico was apparent Monday, when police conducting a raid for undocumented migrants near a rail yard outside Mexico City shot to death a local man, apparently because his dark skin and work clothes made officers think he was a migrant.

Like the United States, Mexico is becoming reliant on immigrant labor. Last year, then-director of Mexico's immigration agency, Magdalena Carral, said an increasing number of Central Americans were staying in Mexico, rather than just passing through on their way to the U.S.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MEX...-04-18-18-08-31 (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MEXICO_MISTREATING_MIGRANTS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-04-18-18-08-31)

Mexico is a real shithole. :(

Surprise! :lol:

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Severian
20th April 2006, 22:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 11:47 PM
The illegals are called 'illegal aliens' because their presence on US soil is a CRIME. We have laws, and regardless what any over-arching 'prole revolution' requires, these people shouldn't even be here in the first place.
That's a circular argument: they should be illegal because they're illegal.

It's a standard argument for the drug war, too: drug users should be thrown in jail for long sentences because they're breaking the law. Well, why should that be the law?

bayano
22nd April 2006, 14:11
my blog and the delete the border blog talk about this a lot.

but valmont's argument is a total wrench in the gears of the discourse bbbg is trying to promote. so i will focus on the initial post, with one preceding point directed at redstar2000: there is already and has always been a (and multiple) Latino Left. the Left in the USA is not white, thats just the Left people think of when they think of the Left. so there is no need to wait til coherent left groups emerge among Latinos. theyre as old as the white Left, and with an older history.

so i quite agree with bbbg in noting the amazing lack of analysis of what is numerically an eruption of Latinos in the streets in a movement that is far from new. but this eruption was not expected by anyone, i know many of the national organizers, and the first big protests of this chapter of the movement were right here in chicago in July (up to 40k) and march 10 (100s of thousands), and we certianly didnt expect it. yet the white Left, the white intellectuals, the white writers have remained amazing silent, befuddled, or have blatantly ignored this movement in most ways thus far, despite the fact that for a majority of non-east coast cities that saw demonstrations, these were the largest protests in their histories, or in the top two (chicago, nashville, dallas, houston, LA, pheonix, milwaukee.....)

and in response to those that say that this is a multi-ethnic movement, it is not nearly as much as it should be. there have been some large immigrant contingents from some Asian, African and European communities, but not nearly enough. there are far too few immigrant communities in on this outside of the Latino communities, but even when we get our act together and do the necessary outreach to these other groups, or they organize better within themselves to come out, this will still be an issue whose effects hit a population where Latinos are a huge majority, so Latinos will continue to be a majority of this movement.

so, then i agree with bbbg's perspective that there is a need for an internal militant, uncompromising, legalization-for-all left wing. i disagree about your position on the amnesty slogan, tho that might simply be a difference between chicago and Atlanta. but in a national meeting yesterday (and nativo was there), everyone was agreeing that that was our slogan. legalization was as well, but the big slogan from people from all parts of the country at this meeting was amnesty, tho i accept your mention that dignity is also a primary slogan. this is more of an internal discussion within the movement, tho, than one that needs to be debated too much with others.

in this meeting and else where, i have also seen our companeros agree that sensenbrenner (and Minuteman) is the one responsible for uniting us to such a degree, including between classes.

but the Left Wing of Latinos is not scattered activists. there are tons of rooted, historic Left Wing groups (and factions) within the movement, a sort-of Old Left as well as a grassroots Left.

i think that most parts of your analysis are right on, the very same that i feel and eloquently put. but i think you lack much analysis of the right wing of the movement, of the character of the organizing (which has not been led, but has been helped, by the radio hosts as much of the press likes to claim), of the character of the Latino Lefts already in existance in the US.

this is a longer discussion. perhaps i will have the time to offer a longer analysis, which i have put some of on my blog and else where.

bayano
23rd April 2006, 23:16
i also find it amazing that there is so little white discourse considering that here is the resurrection of may day in this country. the white left can come and recruit, but they cant offer any serious analysis or appraisal? what the fuck?

redstar2000
24th April 2006, 04:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 05:31 PM
i also find it amazing that there is so little white discourse considering that here is the resurrection of may day in this country. the white left can come and recruit, but they cant offer any serious analysis or appraisal? what the fuck?
It's "out of our league". :o

What purpose would be served by babbling about that of which we know so little?

I frankly have no idea whether this upsurge is "temporary" or has a long range significance...and if it does have a "long range significance", what it might be.

Are there Latino "Leninist parties"? Latino "anarchists"? Latino anti-Leninist Marxists?

Beats me!

Will the proletarian base of this upsurge generate serious workers' organizations with a revolutionary perspective?

Too soon to say!

Sometimes, it's better to just shut up and listen! :P

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Entrails Konfetti
24th April 2006, 05:09
Well you have to represent your organization, and show support for the immigrants.

Though they may think we're only out there trying to sell them something.

bayano
24th April 2006, 18:24
well, then shut up and listen (no offense, just using your words). there are lots of Latino leninist parties and anarchists and other varieties too.

frankly, the young lords and the brown berets initially took a lot from marxism and the then-interpretations of maoism. some latinos comes from hoxhaist strains, or were in various leninist, trot or maoist movements. and many Latinos and Latin Americans come from Leninist groups or other left-wing formations within their countries. others come from traditions out of the more well known US marxist groups, like the CP. many are also focused in community groups and cultural centers.

especially in mexico and argentina, there are definitely anarchist movements, and for mexicans this has translated to many chicano and mexican-american anarchists and collectives in the usa.

some Latinos are political refugees or emigres, coming from right wing movements and death squads, or else from the FMLN, colombian left, or other places. there are plenty of Latin American immigrants here who also have experience with syndicalist movements in our homelands. and while puerto ricans (who are often very radical) are not immigrants, they often join this movement in solidarity.

its just always frustrating to me when people see the white left in the USA as the 'Left'. when white leftists, trying to be respectful but really being patronizing, make mention of the need to wait until a Latino Left, or a Black Left, or a Desi Left forms, as if our communities dont already have long histories of struggle, including specifically 'Left-Wing' groups.

but the call for analysis is not for every white activist who has to say something. but there is a problem when so many white leftists are turning a blind eye to such a gran movimiento.

redstar2000
25th April 2006, 08:43
Originally posted by commieguerrilla
It's just always frustrating to me when people see the white left in the USA as the 'Left'.

To be more precise, it's the English-speaking left in the U.S. that's perceived as "the Left".

No one would deny that there is a rich left "tradition" in South and Central America...one with all the varieties that can be found in Europe.

But we are, still, a monolingual country in terms of public discourse. You cannot expect us to comment sensibly about hypothetical groups that do not publish in English.

In the latest upsurge, there may indeed be some very interesting left groups operating or in the process of forming...but we have no way of knowing that.

You might well argue that English-speaking Americans "should learn Spanish"...and if I had school to "do over" again, I would certainly take every Spanish class they offered. It's going to become the "official" 2nd language in the U.S. and anyone who doesn't know it fluently is really going to be handicapped in the coming decades.

Especially if they live in the southwest!

Meanwhile, I still think it better to "wait and see" how this is all going to "play out".

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Severian
25th April 2006, 08:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 04:31 PM
i also find it amazing that there is so little white discourse considering that here is the resurrection of may day in this country. the white left can come and recruit, but they cant offer any serious analysis or appraisal? what the fuck?
This kind of race-baiting is usually the recourse of people who can't offer any serious analysis or better course of action themselves. Their ideas can't stand on their merits so they say, basically: You're white! So I'm better!

****

I'm not in the business of defending "the left", mostly-white groups or otherwise.

But the the various Latino left groups have basically the same set of problems - as anyone might expect, even just from the list of tendencies you gave in your last post. The problems with the left primarily flow from the class composition and political perspectives of left groups, not primarily the nationality of their members. 'Course a lot of white leftists are afraid to ever criticize any leftist "of color", even though plenty of them are just as big on empty demagogy, as, say, Bob Avakian or Workers World.

So just plugging the existing Latino left groups is not inherently different than just plugging any other left group. It's the same kind of thing decried in the article pasted in by Black Banner Black Gun (it's not originally by him/her if I understand right; it's copied from somebody posting on the Marxism e-mail list.)

I don't know if it's particularly true that the "white left" has ignored these massive demonstrations. The article at the beginning of the thread makes the opposite complaint! Also, some of those opposing the proposal for immigrant workers taking off work May 1, have complained that far-leftists have been promoting it in high gear. for example (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4639432,00.html) Workers World specifically has been mentioned in a number of cases, as their all-purpose front-group machine cranks up again it inevitably becomes the target of red-baiting.

It may be true to some extent; the left is not particularly oriented to the working class; so why would it be oriented towards immigrant workers?

Now, there may be, and probably are all kinds of problems with the participation of various left groups, mostly-white or otherwise. Starting with the problem of middle-class groups seeking to influence a mostly working-class mass movement. And I wouldn't expect their analyses of this movement to be any more serious than their analyses of anything else.

But just saying, oh you gringos are ignoring our great movement, that's not wholly true and not particularly illuminating even if it was true.

Incidentally, I made a number of points in my post of April 16; if you're upset about a lack of analysis why ignore what analysis has been made?

bcbm
25th April 2006, 18:17
it's not originally by him/her if I understand right; it's copied from somebody posting on the Marxism e-mail list.)

Correct.