Do you know what Xenophobia is?

[clandestino]

Do you know what Xenophobia is? Probably not, so let me help you out: its hatred of foreigners. In the US, this goes one step further and arguably is Latinphobia. Yes, Most Americans (that are not Latin themselves) dislike this particular ethnicity. Speaking of my own particular experience, since my job allows me to speak with thousands of Americans each year, most of them (when asked) have resevations when speaking about Latins and their influence. The minority hates them, some dislike them, the majority simply have an implied reservation towards the average Juan and Maria, but still have them as house-keepers and gardners.

Just like Arabs and Africans are immigrating from their home Countries to the Countries that colonized their homes ie France,Belgium, Holland… in search of a better life, Latins are doing the same in the US. Since the US government does not want to increase the minimum wage in this country, immigrants are the most reliable people to do the jobs Americans ( from the US) don’t want to do for such a crappy wage. Who in their right mind will pick oranges the entire day for $20?

Maybe, just maybe if the government increased the minimum wage we would not need illegal immigrants to do the crappy jobs. For $700 a day I would be a part-time orange picker, no questions asked. So untill we get an improvement on the minimum wage (that has not changed in over a decade regardless of inflation) we should treat Juan and Maria with some decency and give them a legal status in the United States , because that’s the least we could do.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by clandestino
Speaking of my own particular experience, since my job allows me to speak with thousands of Americans each year, most of them (when asked) have reservations when speaking about Latins and their influence. The minority hates them, some dislike them, the majority simply have an implied reservation towards the average Juan and Maria, but still have them as house-keepers and gardeners.

Most Americans do not "have house-keepers and gardeners". Where'd you get that idea?

The only "anti-Latin" sentiment that I've run into is along the lines of "they work too cheap"...meaning their presence exerts a downward pressure on prevailing wages. I've never run into any ethnic/cultural hostility directed against Hispanics...though I'm sure there is some.

Despite all the "hue and cry", I think it unlikely that illegal aliens will be criminalized in the U.S. -- there are too many capitalists making money from the sub-standard wages paid to illegals. And this is not just some small-time petty capitalists; it includes some of the biggest employers in the U.S. If memory serves me, Wal-Mart has been nailed for employing illegal aliens...and it's the biggest employer in the U.S.

Capitalists want workers who are "willing" to "work cheap"...and fuck the damn laws!

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[clandestino]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Apr 13 2006, 04:43 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Apr 13 2006, 04:43 PM)
clandestino
Speaking of my own particular experience, since my job allows me to speak with thousands of Americans each year, most of them (when asked) have reservations when speaking about Latins and their influence. The minority hates them, some dislike them, the majority simply have an implied reservation towards the average Juan and Maria, but still have them as house-keepers and gardeners.

Most Americans do not "have house-keepers and gardeners". Where'd you get that idea?

The only "anti-Latin" sentiment that I've run into is along the lines of "they work too cheap"...meaning their presence exerts a downward pressure on prevailing wages. I've never run into any ethnic/cultural hostility directed against Hispanics...though I'm sure there is some.

Despite all the "hue and cry", I think it unlikely that illegal aliens will be criminalized in the U.S. -- there are too many capitalists making money from the sub-standard wages paid to illegals. And this is not just some small-time petty capitalists; it includes some of the biggest employers in the U.S. If memory serves me, Wal-Mart has been nailed for employing illegal aliens...and it's the biggest employer in the U.S.

Capitalists want workers who are "willing" to "work cheap"...and fuck the damn laws!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif [/b]
DId i say most Americans... or did i say from my experience and the ones i talk to... ? read the post dude.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 04:18 PM
DId i say most Americans... or did i say from my experience and the ones i talk to... ? read the post dude.

Yes, Most Americans (that are not Latin themselves) dislike this particular ethnicity.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

The more I hear people talking about "illegal" immigration, the more I realize what a stupid thing the whole concept of having nation-states is. It just makes me want to smash my face into a brick wall. Why not just let people move around and live where they want, and have a minimum wage that applies for EVERYONE? It's not like employers choose latinos over whites just because they like them more.

[che-Rabbi]

Well some people have suggested to have illegal immigrants payed the same wages so that way companies dont have any insentive to hire them over Americans. ..hmmm? hmmm?

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 04:43 PM
Most Americans do not "have house-keepers and gardeners". Where'd you get that idea?



Perhaps because it's the mostly white ameriKans that he is refering too. Even if they don't have domestic servers they still probably rely on and can afford more services than people of colour...



The only "anti-Latin" sentiment that I've run into is along the lines of "they work too cheap"...meaning their presence exerts a downward pressure on prevailing wages. I've never run into any ethnic/cultural hostility directed against Hispanics...though I'm sure there is some.

Perhaps because you spend more time on revleft than actually organizing in the streets, factories and fields. ;) :D

Seriously though, you don't think hispanics are discriminated against? The rule usually is the lighter the skin, the more you are accept. How about start with the national question in the U$ as well...

[Brownfist]

The anti-Latin sentiment is rampant in the US. This can be clearly seen in places like California where large Latin populations reside. Furthermore, if one looks at the large migrant farm worker populations and their treatment by their employers is clearly demonstrative of a racialized mistreatment, in which white farmworkers are treated and paid much better.

Also, I think it is too easy to fall onto an economistic arguement regarding the Latin population, in which they will not be criminalized because they provide cheap labor. There has been a lot of research that demonstrates that often racial prejiduice can overshadow economic logic.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Marcel+--> (Marcel)Perhaps because it's the mostly white ameriKans that he is refering too. Even if they don't have domestic servers they still probably rely on and can afford more services than people of colour.[/b]

Corrected version...


Originally posted by [email protected]
Perhaps because it's the mostly white Americans that he is referring too. Even if they don't have domestic servers, they still probably rely on and can afford more services than people of colour.

Still meaningless. Most white Americans do not have "gardeners" or "housekeepers"...though many may well live in apartment buildings where such services are included in the rent.


Seriously though, you don't think Hispanics are discriminated against?

Did I say that? From observation, it seems to me that American white racists are far more hostile to African-Americans as a people than they are against Hispanics.

I have no doubt that Hispanics suffer from police brutality more than white people do and less than African-American people do.

As you say, "The rule usually is the lighter the skin, the more you are accepted".


How about start with the national question in the U$ as well...

There isn't one...yet. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that there may be one or more "national questions" in the future...and that the continental "United States" may well be broken up into several new "nations".

But up to this point, there has been no significant desire for any new "nations" within the U.S. -- except, of course, the struggle for Puerto Rican independence...which is not really "within" the U.S. at all.


Brownfist
The anti-Latin sentiment is rampant in the US. This can be clearly seen in places like California where large Latin populations reside.

I lived in San Francisco for 17 years and never heard any white people speak in hostile terms towards Hispanics as an ethnic/cultural group.

Of course, it might be different in other parts of California...but I don't "feel the hate" in the same sense as white racists talk about African-Americans as a people.


Furthermore, if one looks at the large migrant farm worker populations and their treatment by their employers is clearly demonstrative of a racialized mistreatment, in which white farmworkers are treated and paid much better.

True...but isn't that a matter of economics? Because many Hispanic farmworkers are "illegals", do not many agricultural corporations believe (correctly) that they can "get away" with paying Hispanic workers less?


Also, I think it is too easy to fall onto an economistic argument regarding the Latin population, in which they will not be criminalized because they provide cheap labor. There has been a lot of research that demonstrates that often racial prejudice can overshadow economic logic.

Well, we'll see how the current struggle turns out. I think "economic logic" is going to win on this one...and Hispanic illegal aliens will not be "criminalized".

I'm pretty skeptical that the "Mexican Wall" will ever be built, either.

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[Thorez]

Do you know what Xenophobia is? Probably not, so let me help you out: its hatred of foreigners.

"phobia" is Greek for "fear". You are disrespectfully distorting a language.

The hostility to aliens on the part of the national culture is entirely acceptable. Your presentation of the term "xenophobia" is of a bourgeois perspective that can be used to justify English and French imperialism. Liberation movements in Algeria, Vietnam, and Palestine with your reactionary logic can easily be smeared as "xenophobic". Every culture is entitled to the preservation of their way of life. With the influx of foreigners and strangers, culture becomes threatened. The proletariat does not want for its way of life to be diluted by peculiar customs and habits. The best example for international solidarity is the Warsaw Pact. Though Marxist-Leninist in outlook, the countries of this body preserved their languages and their distinct customs and habits.


In the US, this goes one step further and arguably is Latinphobia.

Mexicans and Guatemalans are not Latin. They are for the most part imperialist products of mingling between the aborginal peoples and the Castilian imperialists. Real Latin people are of Italy, Spain, and Portugal. France is not included because of the considerable Germanic influence there.


The minority hates them, some dislike them, the majority simply have an implied reservation towards the average Juan and Maria, but still have them as house-keepers and gardners.

The majority of America including whites has an income of under $50,000. It is dubious that they can afford "the average Juan and Maria".


Just like Arabs and Africans are immigrating from their home Countries to the Countries that colonized their homes ie France,Belgium, Holland… in search of a better life, Latins are doing the same in the US.

Did the Arabs, Africans, and Indians NOT push for independence from their colonizers? It is therefore unacceptable for them to leave behind the lands that their blood brothers died for. When you fight for independence, you stay in your land and develop communism. The vast majority of Arab and African immigrants in western Europe can be viewed as traitors to their people and countries because they have submitted to the bourgeois western way of life.

Can you answer why there is an enormous population of Turks in Germany? Unlike England and France, Germany did not have any colonies.

USA never officially except for Cuba and Puerto Rico had colonial posessions in Latin America.


Since the US government does not want to increase the minimum wage in this country, immigrants are the most reliable people to do the jobs Americans ( from the US) don’t want to do for such a crappy wage.

It's not a matter of "Mexicans do jobs that Americans won't do." It's a matter of, "Mexicans do jobs that the bourgeoisie won't pay sufficiently for " Isn't it safe to say that with an agricultural wage was about $20/hour, American proletarians would pour into the countryside? You seem to not comprehend that massive immigration is a an attempt for the bourgeosie to destroy labour unions and drive wages down. It's all entirely motivated by profits.


we should treat Juan and Maria with some decency and give them a legal status in the United States , because that’s the least we could do.

If Juan and Maria went to America illegally, then they are not entitled legalisation. As an immigrant (moved from USSR at 2 years old) , I am disgusted by this degree of dishonesty. My parents had to wait some 6 years in order to move to America.

[321zero]

The hostility to aliens on the part of the national culture is entirely acceptable.

Only for nationalists or fascists who reject proletarian internationalism. Your use of the legal term 'alien' here is disgusting. These are walking talking real people, our brothers and sisters. Working people have no country etc, etc.


With the influx of foreigners and strangers, culture becomes threatened.

Capitalism is the force driving the destruction of 'traditional' 'national' 'culture', and it's not neccesarily a bad thing either.


The vast majority of Arab and African immigrants in western Europe can be viewed as traitors to their people and countries because they have submitted to the bourgeois western way of life.

Presumably the same 'can' be said of the various European immigrants to the US in the C19th. This is nasty nationalist nonsense with nothing in common with internationalist communist politics, and a great deal in common with another 'N-' I won't say out loud in order to avoid falling foul of Godwin's Law.


Unlike England and France, Germany did not have any colonies.

What do you think WWI was about then? Former German colonies. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_German_colonies)


If Juan and Maria went to America illegally, then they are not entitled legalisation. As an immigrant (moved from USSR at 2 years old) , I am disgusted by this degree of dishonesty.

Fuck your bourgeois laws. Full citizenship for all residents yesterday!

[321zero]

The vast majority of Arab and African immigrants in western Europe can be viewed as traitors to their people and countries because they have submitted to the bourgeois western way of life.


As an immigrant (moved from USSR at 2 years old) , I am disgusted by this degree of dishonesty. My parents had to wait some 6 years in order to move to America.

You realise that this implies you and your family should 'go back to Russia' or other bit of the former USSR?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Thorez
The hostility to aliens on the part of the national culture is entirely acceptable.

It may be understandable as a consequence of oppression, for example.

That's not the same as "acceptable". Unthinking fear or or hatred of "foreigners" is, in the last analysis, just stupid.


Every culture is entitled to the preservation of their way of life.

Every culture tries to preserve its "way of life"...always without success.

Cultural borrowing is a human universal. Sometimes we can even trace the spread of a cultural artifact over tens of centuries in the archaeological record.


The proletariat does not want for its way of life to be diluted by peculiar customs and habits.

Suggesting that the proletariat is "dumber" than other classes perhaps and unwilling to borrow better ideas from other cultures.

Absurd!


The best example for international solidarity is the Warsaw Pact. Though Marxist-Leninist in outlook, the countries of this body preserved their languages and their distinct customs and habits.

In fact, the Warsaw Pact countries blundered badly by not trashing some of those "distinct customs and habits". The Russians and their supporters in Poland and East Germany should have made a serious effort to rid their respective countries of Catholicism and Lutheranism...and their failure to do so was catastrophic!


The vast majority of Arab and African immigrants in western Europe can be viewed as traitors to their people and countries because they have submitted to the bourgeois western way of life.

Probably one of the most hilarious statements in the history of this board. As if the misery of wretched poverty and ignorance should be "chosen" as a "patriotic obligation".

As if "treason" is a meaningful concept at all. :lol:


If Juan and Maria went to America illegally, then they are not entitled [to] legalization.

Why not? What is the source of your sudden respect for bourgeois legality?

Fact is, if they were all "suddenly legal" by the "stroke of a pen", wages would rise.

Not a lot, but some.

What's bad about that?

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[MurderInc]

Regarding the issue of aliens unlawfully in another nation, the United States is far more fair than other nations:

In nearly every country, entering the country without persmission of that country is a crime, punishable as a crime, and subject to a very low standard of legal review.

Currently in the U.S., to be in the country illegally is not a crime, but a civil wrong. Those illegally here have the same due process rights as those who are here on a Visa that has come under question.

The U.S. has a "catch a release" policy regarding those who enter without authority.

While I'm not trying to end the discussion of whether there should or should not be nation states, what I mentioned is the current situation.

[phragit]

The capitalist class wants a more efficient source of the comodity of labor, so they use their hegemony over "3rd world" countrys to keep the price of labor down. Open borders void the bourgeois classes' source of cheap labor, so, through the media they control, they instill a nationalistic xenophobia in their subjects.