Some questions

[Jesus Christ!]

I have considered myself a libertarin socialst for quite some time now but talking to cappie friends have made me start to think. The idea is complete freedom and choosing what you want to do as a job in life. If you want to be a gardener do that, if you want to be a musician do that, if you want to be an artist do that. Obviously these are very crucial things ot society but in a society where being a doctor and being a gardner gets you the same benefits what would the drive ot be a doctor be? Would schools remain open and would there still be enough professinals to teach skills neccesary to be a doctor or other professions?
What is to be done with people who have the ability to work but don't? If they are still taken car eof by society what would the point in working be? For the greater good? yes that's a good reason but it won't make everyone work.

If you force no government on people who are cappies what stops them from taking advantage of the lack of control over them?

I know these have been asked before but I'm just wondering again and I've felt myself not believing as strongly in the idea of anarchy or communism as much as I did and i'd be a big help if people could answer these questions.

[Delirium]

If you force no government on people who are cappies what stops them from taking advantage of the lack of control over them?

People will have the freedom to do whatever they want under communism as long as they do not exploit or harm others. If they do i assume they will be punished appropriatly by the community in which they live in. They wont be any established judicial system but rather a individual assesment of each 'crime'.


What is to be done with people who have the ability to work but don't? If they are still taken car eof by society what would the point in working be? For the greater good? yes that's a good reason but it won't make everyone work.


I think it will entice most people work, and even if they do not work they will be supplied with the basic neccesities of life. We also seek to make work more enjoyable and have shorter hours. As communism runs on superabundance rather than artifical scarcity (capitalism) it really would not matter if some people decided not to work.

[KC]

Obviously these are very crucial things ot society but in a society where being a doctor and being a gardner gets you the same benefits what would the drive ot be a doctor be?

The benefit of doing a job you enjoy and helping people. Some people would rather be doctors.


Would schools remain open and would there still be enough professinals to teach skills neccesary to be a doctor or other professions?

Of course! However, the educational system might be different.


What is to be done with people who have the ability to work but don't? If they are still taken car eof by society what would the point in working be? For the greater good? yes that's a good reason but it won't make everyone work.

Why not?



If you force no government on people who are cappies what stops them from taking advantage of the lack of control over them?

Society controls them. What could they do that would be so harmful, and if they could do it then why would society let them?

[Delirium]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 09:44 AM

Obviously these are very crucial things ot society but in a society where being a doctor and being a gardner gets you the same benefits what would the drive ot be a doctor be?

The benefit of doing a job you enjoy and helping people. Some people would rather be doctors.


You have to think of all the people who have a great intrest in say medicine, or math, or philosophy who cannot pursue thier development because the are forced to work all the time to feed themselves.

Wouldn't it be much better for humanity if everyone was allowed to pursue what they are good at rather than wasting thier time and labor just trying to survive?

[anomaly]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ!
What is to be done with people who have the ability to work but don't? If they are still taken car eof by society what would the point in working be? For the greater good?
Maybe. Or maybe they'll just work to survive.

But, in a technoglogical communist society, machines (or robots, if you prefer that term) should be able to to most of the tedious work. The rest can be done communally or voluntarily. This will allow the 'development' Blackflag Skirmisher speaks of in the above post.


If you force no government on people who are cappies what stops them from taking advantage of the lack of control over them?
Early on, the ex-bourgeoisie will have a simple choice: assimilate into communist society or take a bullet in the head (or exile of some kind).

Later, thinking 'like a capitalist' (that is, wanting to 'hire' people for wage-labor) will be thought of the same way we think of slavery today.

[Jesus Christ!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 02:44 PM

Obviously these are very crucial things ot society but in a society where being a doctor and being a gardner gets you the same benefits what would the drive ot be a doctor be?

The benefit of doing a job you enjoy and helping people. Some people would rather be doctors.


Would schools remain open and would there still be enough professinals to teach skills neccesary to be a doctor or other professions?

Of course! However, the educational system might be different.


What is to be done with people who have the ability to work but don't? If they are still taken car eof by society what would the point in working be? For the greater good? yes that's a good reason but it won't make everyone work.

Why not?



If you force no government on people who are cappies what stops them from taking advantage of the lack of control over them?

Society controls them. What could they do that would be so harmful, and if they could do it then why would society let them?
Of course doing a job you want to is very rewarding but I think a lot of people become doctors because of the money they will make doing it, to be honest. Becoming a doctor would require much more extra schooling and practice and whatnot than becoming a gardener. I still don't see the benefit that people would find in doing all that extra schooling to recieve the same neccesities of life as someone who doesn't do a job gets.


I don't see when the magical switch would happen where people stop beng greedy and everyone actually thinks "im not doing this for myself, I'm doing this for the greater good" this is the reason I question what the reason people woul dhave to work their hardest.



Your point about society does seem like a valid one but I think there would still be a large enough group that could ban together and take over a community and grow in support and eventually take over with if they tried.

[Jesus Christ!]

This is the other thing that bothers me. I feel like people label themselves as different leftist things but when pressed with hard questions about the logistics of their beliefs few respond. I know just as well as anyone else it is a lot easier to pick at things that are wrong but an entirely harder thing to actually present a resonable solution to the problem that is so easy to pick at. I fear that we spend too much time saying how evil capitalism is and all the things wrong about modern society, and not enough time of presenting a resonable working solution to this problem.

[Delirium]

I still don't see the benefit that people would find in doing all that extra schooling to recieve the same neccesities of life as someone who doesn't do a job gets.

I think alot of people wouldn't mind having extra schooling (me for one), especially if again it is for something you are passionate about. Now the reason alot of people dont pursue more education is because the have to be working now to make money so they can survive or have more material wealth later.


I don't see when the magical switch would happen where people stop beng greedy and everyone actually thinks "im not doing this for myself, I'm doing this for the greater good"

There probably isn't one, i think it will be a difficult in the begining for the working class to realize that it is very much in their interest to work for the benfit of all.

For the people of the future who have been raised under communism this would make perfect sense, and capitalism would seem just as silly and inefficient as feudualism does to us.


I think there would still be a large enough group that could ban together and take over a community and grow in support and eventually take over with if they tried.

I think they would make themselves visible very early on in the revolution and could be delt with accordingly. As for post revolutionary society, people would quickly band together to put down any attempt to reinstate capitalism or the state.

[Jesus Christ!]

Originally posted by Blackflag [email protected] 16 2006, 02:55 PM

I don't see when the magical switch would happen where people stop beng greedy and everyone actually thinks "im not doing this for myself, I'm doing this for the greater good"

There probably isn't one, i think it will be a difficult in the begining for the working class to realize that it is very much in their interest to work for the benfit of all.

For the people of the future who have been raised under communism this would make perfect sense, and capitalism would seem just as silly and inefficient as feudualism does to us.


I think there would still be a large enough group that could ban together and take over a community and grow in support and eventually take over with if they tried.

I think they would make themselves visible very early on in the revolution and could be delt with accordingly. As for post revolutionary society, people would quickly band together to put down any attempt to reinstate capitalism or the state.
I agree that after generations of communism the idea of greed would essentially be nonexistant becuase there is no need for it. I just think that people who are used to only working for themselves and or their families being forced to work for nothing more than someone's idea of the greater good will have a hard time transitioning.



This second part also goes into another question. will there bea police force in an anarchic. communist society or would things be decided by an elected board of leaders as in a direct democracy situation?

[Delirium]

I just think that people who are used to only working for themselves and or their families being forced to work for nothing more than someone's idea of the greater good will have a hard time transitioning.

I agree it will be difficult. But it's in thier interest just as much as the common good.



will there bea police force in an anarchic. communist society or would things be decided by an elected board of leaders as in a direct democracy situation?

This really depends on the particular vision of communism you subscribe to. I really dont think that a police force would be neccessary because the crimes of property (theft, robbery, embezzlement, etc..) would largely disappear. As for serious crimes such as rape, murder, etc.. i think they will be decided on an individual basis by the community. I am certainly against any sort of established police force.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ!@Apr 16 2006, 04:00 PM



I agree that after generations of communism the idea of greed would essentially be nonexistant becuase there is no need for it. I just think that people who are used to only working for themselves and or their families being forced to work for nothing more than someone's idea of the greater good will have a hard time transitioning.

What could be done is that workers who work hard will recieve compensations in the form of days off and workers who slack off will have to work more days or something simialar.


This second part also goes into another question. will there bea police force in an anarchic. communist society or would things be decided by an elected board of leaders as in a direct democracy situation?

There would probably be a police force but the majority of things would be decided by a eleced council, I think.

[Jesus Christ!]

Originally posted by LeftyHenry+Apr 17 2006, 02:29 AM--> (LeftyHenry @ Apr 17 2006, 02:29 AM)
Jesus Christ!@Apr 16 2006, 04:00 PM



I agree that after generations of communism the idea of greed would essentially be nonexistant becuase there is no need for it. I just think that people who are used to only working for themselves and or their families being forced to work for nothing more than someone's idea of the greater good will have a hard time transitioning.

What could be done is that workers who work hard will recieve compensations in the form of days off and workers who slack off will have to work more days or something simialar.
[/b]
Who woudl control and over see how much someone is working though? No one will admit to slacking off and make themselves work more while someone else is on vacation.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ!+Apr 17 2006, 07:44 PM--> (Jesus Christ! @ Apr 17 2006, 07:44 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 02:29 AM

Jesus Christ!@Apr 16 2006, 04:00 PM



I agree that after generations of communism the idea of greed would essentially be nonexistant becuase there is no need for it. I just think that people who are used to only working for themselves and or their families being forced to work for nothing more than someone's idea of the greater good will have a hard time transitioning.

What could be done is that workers who work hard will recieve compensations in the form of days off and workers who slack off will have to work more days or something simialar.

Who woudl control and over see how much someone is working though? No one will admit to slacking off and make themselves work more while someone else is on vacation. [/b]
Are you and your friends working-class?

[Jesus Christ!]

Originally posted by Rage Against The Machine+Apr 17 2006, 07:49 PM--> (Rage Against The Machine @ Apr 17 2006, 07:49 PM)
Originally posted by Jesus Christ!@Apr 17 2006, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 02:29 AM

Jesus Christ!@Apr 16 2006, 04:00 PM



I agree that after generations of communism the idea of greed would essentially be nonexistant becuase there is no need for it. I just think that people who are used to only working for themselves and or their families being forced to work for nothing more than someone's idea of the greater good will have a hard time transitioning.

What could be done is that workers who work hard will recieve compensations in the form of days off and workers who slack off will have to work more days or something simialar.

Who woudl control and over see how much someone is working though? No one will admit to slacking off and make themselves work more while someone else is on vacation.
Are you and your friends working-class? [/b]
What does this have to do with anything? I have plenty of friends that are very well off but also a lot that are not so well off and do have money problems. I myself am not rich by and means but am also not poor, both my parents work full time jobs to support the family. I still don't see what my personal econmoic situation has to do with the questions I'm asking.

[The Grey Blur]

What does this have to do with anything?
Well it can be extremely difficult to convert middle-class kids to Socialism or even show them the flaws of Capitalism - you might just be wasting your breath arguing with them.

Just my opinion anyway


I still don't see what my personal econmoic situation has to do with the questions I'm asking.
I was just wondering, no need to be so defensive

[anomaly]

Originally posted by JesusChrist!
Who woudl control and over see how much someone is working though? No one will admit to slacking off and make themselves work more while someone else is on vacation.
Why would we need this?

It is perfectly reasonable that people would work to survive.

After all, don't people go to jobs they hate now just to survive? Well, why wouldn't they go to jobs they like to survive?