Class War USA

[Jimmie Higgins]

"If class warfare is being waged in America, my class is clearly winning" - Warrem Buffett, 2004.

Don't you guys ever feel that there is something wrong with this system? There was a boom economy in the 60s and in 1970 (according to the NY Times) CEOs made about 30 X what average workers did... since 1970, there have been booms and yet wages have stagnated and now CEOs (again, NY Times) make 1000 X what their employees make.

[Publius]

"If class warfare is being waged in America, my class is clearly winning" - Warrem Buffett, 2004.

Don't you guys ever feel that there is something wrong with this system? There was a boom economy in the 60s and in 1970 (according to the NY Times) CEOs made about 30 X what average workers did... since 1970, there have been booms and yet wages have stagnated and now CEOs (again, NY Times) make 1000 X what their employees make.

Yes, yes I do.

I find it sickening. So what?

I personally think paying a CEO that much is insane. I could run a company at least as competently as they can; it isn't hard.

Why companies insist on pissing that much money away is beyond me.

[VonClausewitz]

Not to be offensive publius,


I could run a company at least as competently as they can; it isn't hard.


Have you ever run a large company ? I imagine it does contain it's fair share of stresses and work.

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 10:24 PM
Not to be offensive publius,


I could run a company at least as competently as they can; it isn't hard.


Have you ever run a large company ? I imagine it does contain it's fair share of stresses and work.
just by saying that i am doubting he could do it. it shows he has no understanding of what it invovles.

[bezdomni]

And you do have understanding of what it involves?

Have you run a company? No. Has Publius? No.

Point is - you can't know until you do it. No sense in arguing over "I coulds".

[chaval]

hang those CEOs from their very own ties

[JKP]

Actually, Publius is correct in asserting that he could run a company. Why? Because as the factory occupatons in Argentina have shown, each and every single worker in the workplace is capable of performing managerial tasks. You don't need an M.B.A, that much is for certain.

[VonClausewitz]

JKP - I see what you're getting at, but running a factory in Argentina and heading up a world-wide conglomeration is a tiiiinnny bit different, do we agree ? Not every worker can perform mangerial tasks, it's why they aren't managers somewhere else, some people just don't have the needed skills to manage and motivate large bodies of people.

[KC]

Why companies insist on pissing that much money away is beyond me.

Because CEO's demand it. Look what happened to Ben & Jerry's.

[JKP]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 01:54 PM
JKP - I see what you're getting at, but running a factory in Argentina and heading up a world-wide conglomeration is a tiiiinnny bit different, do we agree ? Not every worker can perform mangerial tasks, it's why they aren't managers somewhere else, some people just don't have the needed skills to manage and motivate large bodies of people.
I believe the capitalist economist Milton Friedman once said that large multi-national corporations are undesirable. Any added responsibility is superfluous, since corporations are themselves superfluous.

Besides, within the limited scope of a Proudhonist style economy, "managment" functions entirely different as compared to a capitalist style of managment.

I'd suggest viewing the documentary made on the subject "the take".

http://www.nfb.ca/trouverunfilm/fichefilm.php?id=51363

[SmithSmith]

The most obvious example is the compensation of corporate CEOs. Their obscene pay packages cannot be attributed to the invisible hand of the marketplace. If there were a free market in executives, CEOs would be bidding against one another to see who would work for the lowest salary, just as ordinary workers are pitted against one another to hold down wages. CEO salaries are not set by the marketplace. They are set by compensation committees made up of fellow insiders who have a vested interest in keeping all executive compensation far above what a free market would set.

Socialism for the CEOs. Capitalism for the workers.

When workers are laid off, they can expect 26 weeks of unemployment insurance. Then they are thrown into the cold, cruel marketplace to fend for themselves.

When CEOs run companies into the ground, they can expect golden parachutes that will leave them rich beyond the wildest dreams of ordinary mortals, able to live comfortably the rest of their lives.

Capitalism for the working stiffs. Socialism for the bosses.

The latest trend in creeping socialism for the rich is differential tax rates. The taxes on the capital gains, dividends and inherited wealth of the moneyed class are lowered, effectively shifting the burden onto wages and salaries of the working class.

An extra load put on those struggling to get ahead. A lighter load for those already ahead.

One of the theoretical fears about democracy was that the poor, using their greater numbers, would vote themselves undeserved benefits by soaking the rich. In practice, the opposite has happened. The rich have used their virtual ownership of government to rig the system so that disproportionate benefits flow to the top.

It's about time for a thorough review of the whole rotten system with an eye toward restoring some balance.

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll...03/1035/OPINION (http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050613/OPINION01/506130303/1035/OPINION)

[SmithSmith]

There was a good article related to this topic, I cannot find it, but it was making the point how CEOs today are no better than they were 20 years ago, there job didn't get harder, it doesn't require more effort or brains. It went on about how CEOs salaries are above the market and are not subjected to competition because if they were their salaries will be a lot lower.

[redstar2000]

Modern CEOs display the arrogance and greed of the Czarist aristocracy c.1900...and may they do more of the same!

We know what it will lead to. :D

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Oh-Dae-Su]

ill tell you what it wont lead to, COMMUNISM! :D

anyways, CEO's are the owners of their own companies, what do you expect them to do? "HEY FELLOW WORKERS IM GOING TO SHARE THE INCOME OF THIS COMPANY EQUALLY BETWEEN ALL OF YOU, BECAUSE I JUST LOVE SHARING" :rolleyes: yeah right, give me a brake....

you guys sound like Mother Theresa, you know it's only human instinct to profit for yourself, for your family, this is only natural, for god's sake stop trying to change human nature, even less stop trying to argue it , it's nonsense.... yeah my boss is a millionare while im not, and this is true, so what? what the fuck can i do about that? i don't care, because if i was the owner of the same company i would do the same!! and all of you would too so shut up!!

[KC]

anyways, CEO's are the owners of their own companies, what do you expect them to do? "HEY FELLOW WORKERS IM GOING TO SHARE THE INCOME OF THIS COMPANY EQUALLY BETWEEN ALL OF YOU, BECAUSE I JUST LOVE SHARING"

No. We're going to take it from them.


you know it's only human instinct to profit for yourself

Your assertion that self profit over the benefit of everyone (which includes yourself) is flawed and I again challenge you to prove it.


i don't care, because if i was the owner of the same company i would do the same!!

Bourgeois sentiments :lol:

[Ol' Dirty]

ill tell you what it wont lead to, COMMUNISM! :D

Don't count your chickens, man :rolleyes:


anyways, CEO's are the owners of their own companies, what do you expect them to do?

Be human. But of course, I guess my hopes are a tad high. :D

Shouldn't we excpect leaders to treat the people that they lead humanely, as equals? How is a corporate CEO any better than you and I? Sure, they have more money, but what do they do? How do they help humanity?


"HEY FELLOW WORKERS IM GOING TO SHARE THE INCOME OF THIS COMPANY EQUALLY BETWEEN ALL OF YOU, BECAUSE I JUST LOVE SHARING"

That'd be nice. But, hell, they're not gonna do it, so we might a do it for 'em. :)


you know it's only human instinct to profit for yourself, for your family,

It's also human nature for people to be afraid of change, to act on impulse, and to manipulate others. Does that make it good? No!


for god's sake stop trying to change human nature, even less stop trying to argue it , it's nonsense.... yeah my boss is a millionare while im not, and this is true, so what? what the fuck can i do about that?

Revolt.


i don't care, because if i was the owner of the same company i would do the same!! and all of you would too so shut up!!

You are such a *****, man! Stop telling me what I think, because, hell, you don't know me!

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 04:11 PM
"If class warfare is being waged in America, my class is clearly winning" - Warrem Buffett, 2004.

Don't you guys ever feel that there is something wrong with this system? There was a boom economy in the 60s and in 1970 (according to the NY Times) CEOs made about 30 X what average workers did... since 1970, there have been booms and yet wages have stagnated and now CEOs (again, NY Times) make 1000 X what their employees make.
You don't need to look as far back as the sixties and seventies for such examples man. In 2005 Exon Mobile reported record profits in the third quarter. $9.9 billion, together the top four oil compnaies took in over $100 billion in profits in in 2005.

Menwhile, gas prices have never been higher. Do you think gas station attendents have seen this reflected in their paychecks? If Exon Mobile has taken in a larger profit in 2005 than has ever been earned by any US corperation in history, one would assume that you could make more money pumping gas in the US than doing just about anything else.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Your assertion that self profit over the benefit of everyone (which includes yourself) is flawed and I again challenge you to prove it.

so you actually believe that humans are not naturally selfish? take young children for example, who are innocent, with no concious in the back of their minds of what's wrong or right... tell a small child to share his M&M's with another, you'll see his reaction, and if you think this is bullshit, than that would mean you have never seen a small child in your life other than TV or something...of course most people are naturally good , and they don't really want harm of anyone, but when it comes to profit, personal gain, personal power, uuuuu boy SLEFISHNESS is in our veins....


Bourgeois sentiments

no it's just common sense, what have i done to deserve that person's position? do i have the same skills as he does? do i have a PHD like he does? do i have the experience? otherwise how can i expect to earn the same as a CEO, i mean this is just common sense!! sure it sucks for me to be braking my back picking up boxes, but anyone can do that, and i didn't pay my dues like that CEO


Don't count your chickens, man

frankly i dont have to, it's simple common sense, something which you all disregard, just like your fellow "comrade" Lazar, who actually believes humans prefer profits to be shared amongst a community or something, hahaha thats just ridiculous...



That'd be nice. But, hell, they're not gonna do it, so we might a do it for 'em

yeah well the good thing about dreaming is that it doesn't cost a thing my friend.. :)



It's also human nature for people to be afraid of change, to act on impulse, and to manipulate others. Does that make it good? No!

im with you a 100%, and im aware of the fact that selfishness is not good, we agree on those things, but dont you understand it's unchangable!!!! YOU CANNOT CHANGE HUMAN NATURE!!!! its impossible its UTOPIAN!!! selfishness is an emotion, like hate or love, how can you take emotions away from humans? thats just ridiculous, unless the world develops into a dystopian society like the novels 1984 and Brave New World....


Revolt

that's your idea of a solution, and thats the idea of every leftist, but hey if your smart enough you can see that since it hasn't happened, heck your the minority, meaning most people in the world don't agree with your beliefs , sorry ;)


You are such a *****, man! Stop telling me what I think, because, hell, you don't know me!

another guy like Lazar, ohh man, so your maning to tell me, that if you were the owner of Microsoft, you would share the income of the company equally from the lowest rank workers up to you? hahahahha wow YOUR AN ANGEL!! MOTHER THERESA REINCARNATED!!! :lol:

[violencia.Proletariat]

anyways, CEO's are the owners of their own companies, what do you expect them to do?

Be capitalists, but we aren't going to "play nice" so there will be no asking.


you guys sound like Mother Theresa

:lol: You mean ceo's are LIKE Mother Theresa, SCAM ARTISTS!


you know it's only human instinct to profit for yourself

If this we're true, why would you work for a ceo? Would you not just kill him and take his place, but then everyone would be dead.


for your family

Some people don't have families, I guess your nature isn't very correct.


i don't care, because if i was the owner of the same company i would do the same!! and all of you would too so shut up!!

Possibly but WE AREN'T. So we WILL take it back.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Be capitalists, but we aren't going to "play nice" so there will be no asking ooook? :blink:


You mean ceo's are LIKE Mother Theresa, SCAM ARTISTS!

ook? :blink: lol, did i ever say that? in the contrary, THEY AREN"T!!! don't you understand?


If this we're true, why would you work for a ceo? Would you not just kill him and take his place, but then everyone would be dead.

ummmmm , yeah? or you can just become an entrepreneur..

anyways thanks for proving me right:


Possibly but WE AREN'T. So we WILL take it back.

yeah i know you aren't, but you know youll do it...

[violencia.Proletariat]

lol, did i ever say that?

No I did, people who strap sick kids to beds aren't doing anything to help people ;)


don't you understand?

I will never understand your viewpoint becuase you look at the world through the perspective of a rich man.


or you can just become an entrepreneur

Why? If people only work for THEIR OWN self interest why would you even have trade at all? Even though you would be getting things, your helping other people get things and thats not "fair" to yourself.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

No I did, people who strap sick kids to beds aren't doing anything to help people

strap sick kids to beds? :blink: i think youv been watching too many Discovery Channel shows on child kidnappings in Mexico, or maybe watched Man on Fire too many times....


I will never understand your viewpoint becuase you look at the world through the perspective of a rich man.

I WISH!!!!!! TRUST ME!!! :lol:


Why? If people only work for THEIR OWN self interest why would you even have trade at all? Even though you would be getting things, your helping other people get things and thats not "fair" to yourself.

why would you even trade? WHY DO PEOPLE TRADE??? you think aguacados are natural to say Poland? that's why people trade, it's your own interest that you like aguacados, and it's the interest of the seller in Mexico to trade it to you..and thats not fair to myself? yeah ok? :blink: hahahah so it's not fair to myself to get what i want? riiiiight?

[violencia.Proletariat]

strap sick kids to beds? :blink: i think youv been watching too many Discovery Channel shows on child kidnappings in Mexico, or maybe watched Man on Fire too many times....

No, thats the great care you would recieve in one of ms. theresa's holy hospitals :lol:


you think aguacados are natural to say Poland? that's why people trade, it's your own interest that you like aguacados, and it's the interest of the seller in Mexico to trade it to you..and thats not fair to myself? yeah ok? :blink: hahahah so it's not fair to myself to get what i want? riiiiight?

This doesn't match your little nature theory of every man for himself. Mutual aid is a different theory.

[Publius]

Not to be offensive publius,


I could run a company at least as competently as they can; it isn't hard.


Have you ever run a large company ? I imagine it does contain it's fair share of stresses and work.

I'm sure it requires work and knowledge, but I'm sure I have the intellectual capacity to do it.

[Publius]

And you do have understanding of what it involves?

Have you run a company? No. Has Publius? No.

Point is - you can't know until you do it. No sense in arguing over "I coulds".

I would say its a key issue.

If they really are the only people on earth with that talent, with that ability to run these companies, than they really do deserve that pay: They're that fucking good.

But I don't think that's the case, and I don't think you do either.

[Ultra-Violence]

so you actually believe that humans are not naturally selfish? take young children for example, who are innocent, with no concious in the back of their minds of what's wrong or right... tell a small child to share his M&M's with another, you'll see his reaction, and if you think this is bullshit, than that would mean you have never seen a small child in your life other than TV or something...of course most people are naturally good , and they don't really want harm of anyone, but when it comes to profit, personal gain, personal power, uuuuu boy SLEFISHNESS is in our veins....

WRONG! most human behavior is learned it doesnt run in our viens. kids learn that from a really young age. Our behavoir is determined by our

1.Norms(cultural giudeline "rules")------>behavior
2.Values----------->behavior
3.beliefs------------>behavior

and these are enforced by "sanctions" punishment or rewrds for caertain types of behavior. For example if a kid is tuahg t at an early age to share and when he does the act of sharing he can be rewarded and praised with words candy or some thing just an example. or lets say he doesnt share and is punished some way the kid learns that his behavior doesnt fit the norms culture and becasue of the pressure to conform to his/her main culture he will learn to share. doesnt mean its always true but just an example. and the belief that human behavior is genetics has been almost been completly thrown out the window. People stopped beliving that about 100 yrs ago my freind ;)



yeah my boss is a millionare while im not, and this is true, so what? what the fuck can i do about that? i don't care, because if i was the owner of the same company i would do the same!! and all of you would too so shut up!!


see you have false conciousness your idealogy is of that with the one's in power the same IDEOLOGY OF INDIVIDUAL MERIT wich really maintains the status quo here in america. when you become class concious you'll see our point other than that i see no reall point in arguing with you sbout anything. and im not saying you have to agree with me or any one on this board but a good example is publuis. sure he's a cappy or whatever but he has a much deeper understanding and a much better opponent. unlike you telling people to shut up or whatever pretty rude buddy!


:hammer:

[Oh-Dae-Su]

WRONG! most human behavior is learned it doesnt run in our viens. kids learn that from a really young age. Our behavoir is determined by our

most human behavior is learned? well, it's not learned, we can be conditioned to act in a certain matter, but our personality will never be changed....that can't be changed no matter what, unless you kill the damn person..a person will always be stubborn for example, haven't you ever heard the proverb: "The tree that grows twisted, its trunk never straightens", its a spanish proverb...


1.Norms(cultural giudeline "rules")------>behavior
2.Values----------->behavior
3.beliefs------------>behavior

so social norms are examples of your behavior? yet again, it's conditioned by society, some people are outcasts, minority groups idiologically like yourself, emo people etc....

our values are caused by our behavior? hows that?

and beliefs equal our behavior? what about those priests who believe in god more than you and me yet they raped little kids, how do you explain that?


by the way in your example of the kids, even you yourself admitted that:


doesnt mean its always true but just an example


and the belief that human behavior is genetics has been almost been completly thrown out the window. People stopped beliving that about 100 yrs ago my freind

ummm, well to tell you the truth i don't recall ever saying human behavior is genetically handed down from family members? :blink: although sure, many of use have heard the saying :" like father like son", but im aware that personality can't be handed down genetically, as it is a condition of the mind, of our consciousness, i suggest you read some of Freud, although some of his theories are pretty absurd, but nevertheless interesting. Becaus i do believe that we have impulses common to everybody, and according to our personality is how well we control them, selfishness being one of them, some of us control it very well others don't, i for example, like sharing with my friends and stuff, but im also naturally selfish i want the best for myself, and this my friend you can't deny...


see you have false conciousness your idealogy is of that with the one's in power the same IDEOLOGY OF INDIVIDUAL MERIT wich really maintains the status quo here in america. when you become class concious you'll see our point other than that i see no reall point in arguing with you sbout anything

listen, we obviously see things in different sides of the spectrum. I see life as a game, some win, some loose, thats life my friend, it's not fair. And im a true believer that if you have paid your dues you deserve it more than those who haven't. If my boss is my boss it's for a reason, i haven't done anything to deserve his position...who knows maybe he was a lier and a cheater and got to that position or maybe he inherited a multimillionaire company, but thats when the game of life kicks in, if he was a lier or a cheater he risks loosing it all, such is the nature of capitalism. And you might argue that it can be bettered, but how is communism the anwser? i have explained before that for a taxi driver to get the same pay and benefits as an CEO is just ridiculous and will obviously bring conflicts and discontent between the people.... tell me do you believe a high school drop out should have the same opportunities than you do? why? if you graduated with a PHD!! than what was the point of your efforts?


and im not saying you have to agree with me or any one on this board but a good example is publuis. sure he's a cappy or whatever but he has a much deeper understanding and a much better opponent. unlike you telling people to shut up or whatever pretty rude buddy!

sure he is a capitalist or whatever? :rolleyes: what kind of remarks are those? lol
yeah well guess what im not Publius, if you like him more than me what do you want me to do about that? or if you find him more educated than me, than again, the game of life starts kicking in, maybe he has gotten more education than i have, maybe he has broken his ass studying devouring books in the university, but he has paid his dues i haven't....and im rude? telling people to shut up?

well what do you have to say about your educated remark :


WRONG! lol, that oughta convince everybody shouldn't it! lol

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 18 2006, 03:37 AM
most human behavior is learned? well, it's not learned, we can be conditioned to act in a certain matter, but our personality will never be changed....that can't be changed no matter what, unless you kill the damn person..a person will always be stubborn for example, haven't you ever heard the proverb: "The tree that grows twisted, its trunk never straightens", its a spanish proverb...
Well, rather than argue back, im going to give you a chance. I'll highlight the human nature argument that tehj focus at the moment, and say Im willing to agree with you. Here is your chance to win me over, im all open.

If human nature is so clearly fact, or to be mroe specific, that it holds the attributes you so wildly claim, I just want to see the facts. Hard scientific evidence. Show me some, and I'll admit you win. :D

can't be too hard can it?


it is a condition of the mind, of our consciousness,

And yet what actually formulates the mind? well it's our genes. It dosent dictate what we think however, that's a reaction to social conditions. So either your advocating that "human nature" is some strange mystical element that exists in every human, or that we infact learn it. I think you'd be better sticking with the more rational human nature argument.

If it's not passed on in our genes, then it's not human nature. Genes are what define the specifics of a species, if its not part of the genus its not an arbitrary attribute to that creature.

can't be bothered to reply to the rest, the post bores me. No offence, :)

[Dyst]

It's quite strange to assert that communism" ain't going to happen, or capitalism won't end without giving reasons or giving your own thoughts about the future.

How will things evolve exactly?

It's clear that if we see from a historical perspective, it would be logical to assume capitalism is going to end sometime in a not too distant future. It's up to you to explain why not.

How are things going to work out, for example, when technology has made file sharing extremely easy and fast, movies/music/info/books, etc. (take fiberoptics) are readily available to anyone through pressing one button but then it is outlawed by the the capitalist controlled state? The same thing will more or less happen with "normal" products as well, as technology advances the means of production.

[Ultra-Violence]

our values are caused by our behavior? hows that?

Because our values derive from our culture and that = effect on human behavior
and values dont cause human behavoir they affect human behavior and again its only one factor


and beliefs equal our behavior? what about those priests who believe in god more than you and me yet they raped little kids, how do you explain that?

Dont really know the answer to that but ill give it a shot. Remember when i told you previously about sanctions. well that could of played role on why the preist might wanna do that. Since sexaul intercousre is prohibitted in the church and the preist is in want or need of this he might resort to extreme measuers to get this. But lets say the church said it was ok for them to have sexaul intercourse or get married maybe he probbably would of not needed to resort to that. But like i said dont know the answer but gave it a shot thought probably not a really good one lol :P


ummm, well to tell you the truth i don't recall ever saying human behavior is genetically handed down from family members? although sure, many of use have heard the saying :" like father like son", but im aware that personality can't be handed down genetically, as it is a condition of the mind, of our consciousness, i suggest you read some of Freud, although some of his theories are pretty absurd, but nevertheless interesting. Becaus i do believe that we have impulses common to everybody, and according to our personality is how well we control them, selfishness being one of them, some of us control it very well others don't, i for example, like sharing with my friends and stuff, but im also naturally selfish i want the best for myself, and this my friend you can't deny...


well you previously said that in runs in our viens that its in our blood so the conclusion is that it must be inborn and passed geneticaly


listen, we obviously see things in different sides of the spectrum. I see life as a game, some win, some loose, thats life my friend, it's not fair. And im a true believer that if you have paid your dues you deserve it more than those who haven't. If my boss is my boss it's for a reason, i haven't done anything to deserve his position...who knows maybe he was a lier and a cheater and got to that position or maybe he inherited a multimillionaire company, but thats when the game of life kicks in, if he was a lier or a cheater he risks loosing it all, such is the nature of capitalism. And you might argue that it can be bettered, but how is communism the anwser? i have explained before that for a taxi driver to get the same pay and benefits as an CEO is just ridiculous and will obviously bring conflicts and discontent between the people.... tell me do you believe a high school drop out should have the same opportunities than you do? why? if you graduated with a PHD!! than what was the point of your efforts?


Agian you prove my point you have really little understanding of what communism really is and theory. like i said theres other cappys here who do know but even tho we differ they now what their talking about


sure he is a capitalist or whatever? what kind of remarks are those?

what do they offend you or something i find them to be ok remarks. What do you think those remarks mean?


QUOTE
WRONG!
lol, that oughta convince everybody shouldn't it! lol

Well you were wrong :huh:
:hammer:

[Orange Juche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 06:30 PM
Have you ever run a large company ? I imagine it does contain it's fair share of stresses and work.
Do you truly, honestly, believe that it equates to anywhere near the amount of stress and work the workers at the bottom of the payscale in that company face?

[MurderInc]

Re: the comments made by some involving why CEO's make so much money these days especially, and other comments that any reasonable worker can run the factory, etc:

I my opinion and study of history, it has far more to do with ego and achievement than capitalism v. socialism v. communism.

What I mean is that MANY BUT NOT ALL successful people (let's talk about men specifically for a moment, as most of these are men) who achieve in the highest realms of human activity, such as big business, finance, politics, movies, music, sports, also find it necessary to achieve in sex, money and power for their own sake. I don't think that capitalist leaders have a corner on this market. Those who have achieved in state socialist nations have also grabbed up lots of commodities and jewels and art for their families and girlfriends.

Sting once wrote, "We are spirits in a material world." That about sums it up.

[red team]

The problem is not really with wealth or power, but unaccountability. And what's more unaccountable than private profit? I have absolutely no problem with people earning an income in relation to their share of labour to production or intellectual contribution to society, but how does profit contribute to anything? Profit is just an arbitrary percentage taken off from what otherwise is an equal exchange in value or in other words theft. The entire premise of the American Revolution was the injustice of "taxation without representation", but what could be more unjust than having a profit taken away by private interests because you're forced to sell your labour to survive?

If I want a portion of my income taken off to fund some public works or utility that everyone could benefit from I should be able to have the power to vote for it. But, who voted to have a cut of my income taken away so some rich idle bastard could live in luxury without contributing anything to the production process? Who voted for 100 room private mansions and 50 yard long super-yachts for the private use of these decadent, worthless parasites?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

to Additives Free:


If human nature is so clearly fact, or to be mroe specific, that it holds the attributes you so wildly claim, I just want to see the facts. Hard scientific evidence. Show me some, and I'll admit you win

listen im only using educated guessing here, im just using my common sense in response to my 19 years of life expirience with humans surrounding me and myself...im speaking for what i have seen, my interaction with others, it's my deduction that humans are naturally like this, if you want hard scientific data than i would have to google that up because im no scientist with resources to do a scientific test, so you might as well look that up online if your so interested because im not going to do that for you...it's just my logic that humans want the best for themselves instead of sharing it within a community, i mean it's just obvious in my eyes, i want the best for myself, sure i don't want bad things to happen to other people, but thats just wishing well being on others, im still a selfish animal...


And yet what actually formulates the mind? well it's our genes. It dosent dictate what we think however, that's a reaction to social conditions. So either your advocating that "human nature" is some strange mystical element that exists in every human, or that we infact learn it. I think you'd be better sticking with the more rational human nature argument.

If it's not passed on in our genes, then it's not human nature. Genes are what define the specifics of a species, if its not part of the genus its not an arbitrary attribute to that creature

our genes define how we look, and i would say to a certain extent our personality, if you can recall i mentioned the proverb "Like Father like Son", which is true, but i think this is moderate, anyways "human nature" is a universal element within all humans, and it's not a mystical element, i mean what would you define personality as being? a mystical element? they are just traits characteristic to humans....

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Do you truly, honestly, believe that it equates to anywhere near the amount of stress and work the workers at the bottom of the payscale in that company face?

don't you understand?? anyone can pick up a box or operate a machine like those in the bottom do, but not everyone can operate a company like the ones in the top do..

[AnnieAngel]

Feral children who remain isolated until around the age of 8, will live like wolves for the rest of their lives. They will never speak, they will never stand properly due to the time spent growing while travelling on all fours. They will shun interaction and wil howl at the moon even years and years after they have been taken from the wolves.

For what it's worth.

Annie :ph34r:

[RevMARKSman]

not everyone can operate a company like the ones in the top do..


If they had the same opportunity as everyone else did for education and experience, then OH YES THEY CAN.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

If they had the same opportunity as everyone else did for education and experience, then OH YES THEY CAN.

NO SHIT!! SHERLOCK!!! but are immigrants who are 30 years old who come to this country not knowing a word of english with 0 money you think their thinking about an education in a university!?? c'mon man get real, and those who are born here, im sorry you can't tell me you didn't go to college because you couldn't, that's bull, there is something called "FINANCIAL AID" , given to all students who don't have an income to pay school, my friend gets it...if you drop out of high school than sorry thats your fault!!

[RevMARKSman]

So it really does matter whether you were born here or not, hmm?

These people cannot afford THREE MEALS A DAY, let alone even part of college tuition. You can't get full tuition paid unless you get a full scholarship, and you can't get a full scholarship unless you're a genius, which maybe about 3% of the world is. And don't you start with the "CEO's are geniuses" bull. They're just rich. They either were born rich, or got lucky, or exploited other people to get rich.
Still a LOT of inequality here.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

So it really does matter whether you were born here or not, hmm?

ummm as far as im concerned NO! i wasn't born here, yet i go to the University, so what's your point? of course my parents didn't have the time to get an education, that's my point...



These people cannot afford THREE MEALS A DAY, let alone even part of college tuition

i hope you know we are talking about America, because those who don't work are the only people in America that can't afford 3 meals a day, and even so i find that hard to believe, maybe a very small %


You can't get full tuition paid unless you get a full scholarship, and you can't get a full scholarship unless you're a genius, which maybe about 3% of the world is

that's bullshit, obviously you have not graduated from high school yet or have never applied for a college or university...financial aid pays each semester , according to what your elegible for, if you are really poor maybe they give you 2000 each semester, if you choose 1 class and it is only 500 dollars, you keep the rest of the money it's for you, this is the case with many many of my friends...and you don't have to be a genius at all to get a full scholarship at Harvard or something, i could have done it, but my work ethic, my study ethics were not as good as those who got straight A's in high school, so obviously they deserve it more than i do...



And don't you start with the "CEO's are geniuses" bull. They're just rich. They either were born rich, or got lucky, or exploited other people to get rich.

that's total bullshit, i never said CEO's are geniuses, in fact i never even assumed this, it's your assumption, they just worked hard to get their PHD, anyone can do it, i can do it, if i keep working hard in my studies...and in fact most CEO's were not rich from birth or got it easy, and yes luck is involved, it's part of life...

[Oh-Dae-Su]

you seem to not understand that intelligence does not mean your deserve anything at all more than those less intelligent than you...

it's your work ethic, many people are smart in fact very smart, but they are lazy, this prevents them from many things...

im sure many many criminals are smart, in fact genius people, yet look at them , their CRIMINALS!! so i don't know where the hell you get the assumption that because your a CEO that would mean your a genius....like i said i never even thought this...they just paid their dues to get to that position

[RevMARKSman]

Oh, so everything's about work ethic then? Not intelligence?

Explain to me how a man who grew up extremely poor, could never pay for college (because he dropped out of high school to get a job and support his parents), and is working three minimum-wage jobs to support his wife and children has a bad work ethic.

[red team]

That's great!

If you can pass through a difficult game of trivial pursuit. You can become the all powerful ruler of a company with no accountability in setting your pay because your pay is profit from the labour of others.

Tell me if you can find any sort of correspondence between the multi-million dollar profits of CEOs and what labour they perform and have performed including studies.

If you work then you get paid corresponding to your efforts. If you've worked harder to attain your position then you get paid a higher amount corresponding to your efforts. But the thing is profit is never measured corresponding to effort. There are many professional people who worked hard to attain their level of competency in their chosen fields, but they still get paid a wage.