Hello everyone. - A little about me and Iraq.

[Republican Guard]

Hi!

I've just joined the forum and would like to congratulate you on the lively and informative articles and postings here.

My name is Steve, and I am a young Canadian of Iraqi origin (my father was from Mosul and my mother from Basra, both grew up in Baghdad). I was in Baghdad with my father in early 2002 after my mother had passed away.

Biased or not, I am fervently anti-american (policies and gov't) although many of my good friends are americans. Then main source of my anger is how the media manipulates data to conform to what the gov't wants to portray. I am an avid reader of Noam Chowsky, Michael Moore and others.

There is a point I would like to make about Saddam, and I don't want this to come across as an excuse for him or anything of the like. Up until the Iran-Iraq war, he made a series of very clever decisions and was motivated not by greed or power but by a genuine love for Iraq (which he still holds). The previous [British-instilled] regime was much more brutal than his came to be, and was downright genocidal when it came to Christians and Kurds. As a ideological moderate secularist, he understood that the diversity of Iraqs' peoples was in fact its strength. He had churches built for the Christians, and opened up immigration to all races. For the first time anyone can remember, all residents of Iraq were allowed to occupy govt positions (Tariz Aziz is a Christian, and there are quite a few Kurds in upper Ba'ath hiearchy). A golden age was upon the country; it wouldn't last for long.

I'm not going to get into the details of why or how it happened, but the Iran - Iraq war devastated the country. At the same time, fervent Shi'ite muslims in the south - encouraged by Iran and Saudi Arabia - became fed up with Saddams' secularism and began to revolt. This, combined with a growing yearning for independence among the Kurds in the north, led to some very bad decisions on his part (ie the draining of the southern marshes and the gassing of the Kurds, which was actually ordered without his approval, but which he had to subsequently take responsibility for, lest he appear that he was not in control of his own army).

Fast forward through the Kuwait invasion (provoked by Kuwait after refusing to pay protection fees to Iraq, and endorsed by the US) and to the present day. I've written numerous articles in the months before the current war depicting how Saddam would be remembered as a martyr had he simply stepped down and allowed the people to create new parties and hold their own democratic elections. Maybe it still wouldn't have avoided a war, but it would have helped unmask the US even more for their true intentions.

Saddam runs a brutal regime to those who oppose him. If you are with him, you can live like a king. How is this different in the US? Ok, maybe the repercussions for speaking out against the gov't aren't as drastic, but they are still there. And the people are still controlled, although by information rather than fear. I, for one, would rather live my own life and know the truth than live someone elses' in ignorance.

Anyhow, that's just a brief [ok kinda long-winded] hello to all of you, and I hope to be able to learn alot from everyone here.

Thanks

s.

_

Hasta la Victoria Siempre

I respect someone who is willing to die for what they believe in much more than I do someone who is willing to kill for the same reason.

[canikickit]

Hello and welcome, an interesting post. "Steve" seems like a strange name for two Iraqi to call their child, but neverthless. Just out of curiousity (and if you don't mind me asking (although it's a bit late considering I'm asking now)) but is that a name you adopted?

I actually thought, when I saw the title of this thread that you were some mindless spammer and were going to claim you were a genuine Republican Guard. :cheesy:

"I respect someone who is willing to die for what they believe in much more than I do someone who is willing to kill for the same reason."

- nice. I feel the same way.

Well, there is a forum for introductions, but I'll leave this ear because it contains some nice information about Iraq, straight from the horse's mouth as it were.

I hope you stick around.

[Republican Guard]

By the way...

I just got back from Cuba... you can see some neat pics of Havana - and my astounding web design skills - at www.stevesgallery.com/cubasi

thanks

s.

_

Hasta la Victoria Siempre

I respect someone who is willing to die for what they believe in much more than I do someone who is willing to kill for the same reason.

[Republican Guard]

>"Hello and welcome, an interesting post. "Steve" seems >like a strange name for two Iraqi to call their child, but >neverthless. Just out of curiousity (and if you don't mind >me asking (although it's a bit late considering I'm asking >now)) but is that a name you adopted?

>I actually thought, when I saw the title of this thread >that you were some mindless spammer and were going >to claim you were a genuine Republican Guard.

>"I respect someone who is willing to die for what they >believe in much more than I do someone who is willing to >kill for the same reason."

>- nice. I feel the same way.

>Well, there is a forum for introductions, but I'll leave this >ear because it contains some nice information about >Iraq, straight from the horse's mouth as it were.

>I hope you stick around."

Thanks for the warm welcome!

To answer your question: my parents wanted me to have a English-sounding name when I was born because they knew that I was going to be raised in North America. Apparently their 2nd choice was Saladin ;) .

By the way I am a Christian (Assyrian / Babylonian) Iraqi, and we tend to have more "white"-sounding names.

And I do plan on sticking around. :)

s.
_

Hasta la Victoria Siempre

I respect someone who is willing to die for what they believe in much more than I do someone who is willing to kill for the same reason.

[Zombie]

First off welcome to the forum Steve :)
Hope you enjoy your stay among us!

I was looking at those Cuba pictures you took and I couldn't help noticing you and your friends were wearing some kind of comon bracelets on your right wrists, at the beach etc... What exactly were they for?
Forgive my ignorance...

Z.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Hey, steve Great photos!

On your initial thread topic, what would drive Saddam Hussein to lead a totalirian regime as he does, or is all this just American propaganda. You see, it's kind of hard to know what to believe and what not to believe here in the U$, so I'll ask you.

[thursday night]

Comrade! Thank you for you amazing post. I am going to bookmark this site and keep it as a personal treasure. It was extremely informative. I have also been to Cuba yet I have not posted my photos. Nevertheless, yours are very good.

[hawarameen]

hello steve

first, bad decisions? you could say that yes, 200,000 kurds slaughtered? thats a pretty bad decision

second, the people who are with him (including kurds) are betraying the people of iraq and like saddam are driven by greed and the atainmnet of personal power. aside from that many of his "supporters" are unwilling ones. you support him or you and your family die, thats not much of a choice. even singers have been executed because they refused to sing songs about saddam. young children who have accidentally mentioned to people that their dad said something about saddam find they dont have a dad anymore. children who draw things on saddams face in text books (every book has a picture of him in it) are reported by teachers and they too find that their families dissapear. this is ever so slightly different from the US

Protection fees? this isnt a gangster film, and although many iraqi's believe (as i do) that kuwait was and should be part of iraq

a friend of mine whilst in baghdad was asked by an old woman (who knew my friend was kurdish) if he thought saddam was bad. what do you say?? yes and then find the woman has reported you? this is what goes on in iraq now. what good is knowing the truth when your life is at constant risk?

his actions are not those of a man who loves his people!

having said that the kurds in iraq are freer in terms of language and culture compared to turkey and iran, i accept that. they just had to put up with a holocaust thats all.

i have heard other iraqis say "yes saddam did some bad things, but he did some good things too" all good he did amounts to nothing compared to the bad he did. the man is evil and to describe the killing of hundreds of thousands of people as a bad decision amazez me.

in any case, i realise you said your not making excuses for him, welcome to the board.

[redstar2000]

Welcome, Steve!

The pictures were awesome!

I remember the "secular" Saddam Hussein; in fact, I recall reading that women in Iraq had a far better deal after Hussein came to power than before...which has always seemed to me to be one good way to measure a regime's fundamental decency.

What puzzled me at the time and still puzzles me today is why Hussein attacked Iran in the first place. It's not as though he could have reasonably expected a "glorious march into Teheran." What did he hope to gain?

The invasion of Kuwait, on the other hand, never bothered me a bit. Kuwait could not help but be better off as a province of Iraq than it is today under the "royal" parasites--one of whom reportedly dropped $25,000,000 at the casino in Monaco.

Steve, do you follow events in the Middle East closely? I'm wondering about your opinions concerning Syria, Jordan, and "Saudi" Arabia. Are there progressive secular elements in those countries? Is it possible that there are even communists there?

Anyways, it's terrific to have you with us.

:cool:

[Republican Guard]

Thanks for all the great replies! I think I'm going to enjoy the discussions on this board... ;)

Zombie: Unfortunately, the people I was with mostly wanted to go to Cuba for to relax and take in the beach, while I was going for the people, the culture and sightseeing. We ended up staying in one of the many "Tourist" all-inclusive resorts in Varadero (very detached from "real" Cuban daily life. I ended up spending most of my time in Havana anyway :) ... The bracelets were used to identify us in the resort.

Victorcommie: My thoughts are that Saddam had / has an ideological belief that all Arabs [and non-Arabs living on arab land] are one people, and should unite under one banner (as do I). This occurred only once in history, during the crusades (although attempts were made a few times this century by Gamal Abu l-Nasser and Major General Amin el-Hafez) http://i-cias.com/e.o/syria_5.htm . In this light, Saddam saw himself as kind of the modern-day persona of Saladin (the Kurd who fought and defeated the huge European armies during the crusades). Now once he took control of Iraq, many have tried to dethrone him for their own purposes. Obviously, he grew tired of this and grew more and more Draconian in his measures to suppress rebellion and dissent. How a regime "becomes" totalitarian I can't tell you, but I can tell you that pretty much every major nation-state and empire has gone through such a phase or is going through it [like the US is now, with censorship and the repealing of the bill of rights and the like]. My only answer is that there are many worse totalitarian regimes (Saudia Arabia, to name the obvious) that have had a much less tumultuous history than Iraqs'. Oh, and on your comment of chosing what to believe when living in the US, it's simple: believe as little as possible ;) . Try to be objective when you hear news in the US media, and compare it with other independent news. I usually just add them both up and divide by 2 to get the truth ;) ...

thursday night: Thanks very much for your warm comments, feel free to share the pictures with anyone (please point them to my site) and I'm looking forward to seeing yours!

hawarameen: Thanks for your reply and I appreciate and repect your point of view. I disagree with a number of your points however:

-"200,000 kurds slaughtered"? That's a very bold number.

Halabja - a village with a population of 7,000 at the time was the town that was hit with chemical weapons. Estimates are closer to 4,000 - 6,000, mostly civilians.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0226/p06s01-woiq.html

Of course that is still an atrocity (by the way, tracing up my family tree I do have Kurdish ancestors, so I'm not biased one way or the other).

Furthermore, I wasn't there (My father was in the Iraqi military at the time but not near Halabja). I can't tell you exactly what happened or why. I do know that the Kurds wanted their own country cut out of Iraq, and that they were trading intelligence information to Iran in exchange for arms to accomplish this. They were a threat to Saddam and he hit back. Or at least, that's what we're told...

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/helms.html

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/2003/02/000294.html

- "Personal power"? All the palaces that Saddam has built were intended as a display to the world that he is the victor, not as personal luxuries. I can assure you that 6 nights out of 7 for the past 13 years he has slept in a spartan bunker well away from the comfort of his "homes". Yes, he sees/saw himself as the new "Saladin" that will lead the arabs to a new golden age, and he seizes power to do this.

"even singers have been executed because they refused to sing songs about saddam. young children who have accidentally mentioned to people that their dad said something about saddam find they dont have a dad anymore. children who draw things on saddams face in text books (every book has a picture of him in it) are reported by teachers and they too find that their families dissapear. this is ever so slightly different from the US "

Although I'm sure this has happened more than once (in Iraq and in most other countries on the globe), alot of it is just as easily anti-Saddam propaganda, which very, very few people are able - and willing - to verify. It's very easy for me to propose that, say, Hitler ate jewish babies and have people believe me, although if I said that Winston Churchill was a wife-beater and serial rapist (he was) I would probably get a fist in the face.

- "Protection fees? this isnt a gangster film, and although many iraqi's believe (as i do) that kuwait was and should be part of iraq"

Fact: Iraq did indeed defend Kuwait - along with its own borders - from Iran, both for economical and strategic reasons. Kuwait offered to pay Iraq, but withheld on those payments.

Is Saddam evil? If you believe all the rhetoric, yes. The question is, do you believe it? I don't think evil is the first word I'd use. I'd reserve that word for someone like bin Laden. When we look at the world, we should strive to not look at it in terms of "good" and "evil" (that's the mistake Bush is doing) but in terms of means and ends. What MEANS is an individual using to acheive what ENDS, and can either be justified morally and ideologically?

redstar: Saddam is indeed very secular. I wouldn't go so far as to say atheist, but he's definitely not an "example Muslim", especially not to someone like bin Laden (who despises him).

Indeed, women in Iraq enjoy more freedom and respect than anywhere else in the Arab world (alongside Egypt and Turkey, but Turks are not really arabs). My great aunt is actually a retired fighter plane instructor (this was in the 70s!!!)! Cross the border over to Saudi Arabia or Iran, and you'll see women get stoned if they show a part of their ankle. This is a testament to the reason that their are women in "Saddam Fedayeen", volunteers ready to give their lives to die for their country.

What caused the Iran - Iraq war? My guess is as good as yours. Let's not forget though that at the time, Iran was #1 on Americas' blacklist, while Iraq was a strong Washington partner... might that have something to do with it? No idea.

And I agree totally about the "royal" families in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia... my firm belief is that they are much, much more responsible for the pathetic state of the middle east today than any amount of western imperialism/colonialism is. In Saudia Arabia, 2% of the population controls 97% of the wealth.

Yes redstar I do follow events in the ME closely. I can tell you that disdain for the inactivity of their gov't is rapidly mutating "arab solidarity" to "arab secularity" in Jordan. Jordan is now a Palestinian majority, and this is bridging the gap through gov't censorship to Iraq and other arab countries. I can't tell you much about Syria, except that they aren't the major player they used to be among fervent arab nationalists. Saudia Arabia is quite unstable at this point... Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak recently said it best: "This war will create 1000 bin Ladens"... Once the US deems Saudi Arabia no longer "necessary" (after colonizing Iraq), it'll let it fall like a wet kleenex (much like it did Afghanistan after using bin Laden and his Mujahideen to fight the Soviets). Saudia Arabia cannot keep itself from imploding without the support of the US. Its people are tired and angry.

Whew!

I can't help but wonder what it would be like, had it been Che who led Iraq to independence... :

Enjoy :)

Thanks

s.

_

Hasta la Victoria Siempre

I respect someone who is willing to die for what they believe in much more than I do someone who is willing to kill for the same reason.

[Felicia]

Welcome Steve, say, which part of Canada are you in?

[Republican Guard]

Thank you Felicia,

I am in Montreal.

:)

s.

_

Hasta la Victoria Siempre

I respect someone who is willing to die for what they believe in much more than I do someone who is willing to kill for the same reason.

[Felicia]

thanks.....and you're welcome, lol :)

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Quote: from Republican Guard on 10:50 pm on April 3, 2003

There is a point I would like to make about Saddam, and I don't want this to come across as an excuse for him or anything of the like. Up until the Iran-Iraq war, he made a series of very clever decisions and was motivated not by greed or power but by a genuine love for Iraq (which he still holds). The previous [British-instilled] regime was much more brutal than his came to be, and was downright genocidal when it came to Christians and Kurds. As a ideological moderate secularist, he understood that the diversity of Iraqs' peoples was in fact its strength.


hmmm, where do I start. I suppose we could start with the fact that the Iraqi monarchy fell in 1958 to a military revolt led by Brigadier Abdul Karim Qasim who loathed the pro-western monarchy and its unfair distribution of wealth. Qasim made popular promises of land reform and negotiations for a greater share of the oil wealth. Britain sent troops to neighbouring Jordan. The US sent troops to Lebanon. They were desperate to crush the Qasim government and turned to the Ba'athist Party to spearhead right wing resistance in Iraq.

After the July 1958 republican revolution which toppled the monarchy, Saddam engaged in street fights between the Baathists and the followers of Prime Minister Abdul Karim Qasim, who included Communists. Qasim was opposed to Iraq's unification with Egypt and Syria then part of the United Arab Republic (UAR). Like most Iraqi towns, Tikrit became divided between Communists and nationalists. In mid-1959 Saddam was arrested for murdering Saddoun al Tikriti, a local Communist leader, but was released for lack of evidence.

This caught the attention of the Baathist leaders who drafted Saddam into a six-man team to assassinate Qasim in October 1959. the attempt failed. In the shoot-out Saddam was hit in the leg. After getting the bullet removed, he escaped on horseback dressed as a Bedouin tribesman.

The CIA eventually backed a successful Ba'athist coup in 1963 (in which Saddam played a major role). The head of the CIA in the Middle East, James Critchfield, said, "We regarded it as a great victory." After the Ba'ath Party seized power from Qasim their national guard attacked working class areas and murdered thousands of Communists and trade union militants. Although the Ba'ath Party was booted out by its former allies in the military after just six months, however, in 1968 the Ba’ath party regained control in a coup that Hussein helped lead. Hussein was named the vice chairman of the ruling Revolutionary Command Council and vice president under General Ahmed Hassan Bakr. In 1979 Hussein became president. Subsequently, he executed hundreds of high ranking party members and army officers who he suspected of being disloyal, beginning a long rein of crimes as Iraq's dictator. Hussein’s brutality and willingness to torture and murder anyone he sees as a threat has earned him the moniker, Butcher of Baghdad. Western oil companies of course offered their cooperation to the new ruler.

The new Iraqi regime courted support from both superpowers. In the early 1970s the US relied on Israel, Saudi Arabia and the pro-Western Shah of Iran as its principal allies in the Middle East. The Shah, with US backing, armed Kurdish rebels in Iraq, while putting down his own Kurdish population.

Iraq and Iran signed a treaty in 1975. Saddam Hussein put down the Kurdish insurgency without a murmur from the West, and consolidated power in 1978. The US swung firmly behind him when the Shah was overthrown in 1979. Saddam Hussein went to war with Iran in 1980, with Western support. The US was terrified by the Iranian Revolution. The bloody eight-year war saw Saddam use poison gas against Iranian troops and Kurdish civilians. There was no outcry from Western governments.

At the end of the war John Kelly, the US assistant secretary of state, visited Baghdad to tell Saddam Hussein, "You are a force for moderation in the region, and the US wants to broaden her relationship with Iraq." Saddam was so confident of support from the US that he believed he had its agreement to invade Kuwait in 1990.

I think that swiftly deals with your ludicrous claims that Saddam was a benign ideological moderate secularist.

Also you said, "Saddam runs a brutal regime to those who oppose him. If you are with him, you can live like a king."

That might be true as in the case of the republican butchers (oops.. sorry I meant guards), but in order to gain his trust and get on his good side you must show your ability to be a ruthless and murderous psychopath just like him. If not, then tough shit, it's the torture chambers for you then.

Finally, there is nothing that makes me more furious than Saddam apologists trying to manipulate our hatred for the US government in order to back a fucking murderous bastard such as Saddam, who I personally hope will be tortured and crucified before someone jams a land mine up his fucking ass.

[Republican Guard]

"In the shoot-out Saddam was hit in the leg. After getting the bullet removed, he escaped on horseback dressed as a Bedouin tribesman."

- Actually, he removed the bullet from his leg himself, and escaped to Egypt before returning to Iraq.


"In 1979 Hussein became president. Subsequently, he executed hundreds of high ranking party members and army officers who he suspected of being disloyal, beginning a long rein of crimes as Iraq's dictator. Hussein’s brutality and willingness to torture and murder anyone he sees as a threat has earned him the moniker, Butcher of Baghdad."

Isn't is amazing how this description can be applied to the vast majority of dictators in the 20th century? Simply replace "Saddam", "1979" and "Baghdad" with your favorite choice of leader and capital. Did I say that he was a saint? No. Am I a Saddam apologist? No. I was merely trying to put the facts out from a different point of view.


"Saddam Hussein put down the Kurdish insurgency without a murmur from the West, and consolidated power in 1978. "

- Yes he did. Was he supposed to let the Kurds overthrow him and divide Iraq? No. He crushed them. I don't see how this plays negatively on him, I'm sorry.

"I think that swiftly deals with your ludicrous claims that Saddam was a benign ideological moderate secularist."

- My "ludicrous" post does indeed point to the belief I hold that Saddam is an ideological secularist (which he is). I don't remember saying anything that would paint him as "benign" or "moderate" however. Nice choice of words though. Oh and by the way, to answer your statement, no, it doesn't. Nothing you said has any weight on Saddams' purported ideology or his secularism, both of which you or anyone else would have a very difficult time debating.


"That might be true as in the case of the republican butchers (oops.. sorry I meant guards), but in order to gain his trust and get on his good side you must show your ability to be a ruthless and murderous psychopath just like him. If not, then tough shit, it's the torture chambers for you then. "

- Tariq Aziz ( http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east...aq/player2.html (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/iraq/player2.html) ) is not a murderous ruthless psychopath, and yet he is one of the closest Ba'athists to Saddam (he is also openly a devout Christian). There are many more examples of people around Saddam who have never hurt another human being. Please show some supporting evidence to your rhetoric.

"Finally, there is nothing that makes me more furious than Saddam apologists trying to manipulate our hatred for the US government in order to back a fucking murderous bastard such as Saddam, who I personally hope will be tortured and crucified before someone jams a land mine up his fucking ass."

- Wow, nothing adds credibility to an argument like hoping for the torture and crucifixion of another person. I'm sorry if my original post "infuriated" you, but it was simply meant to be informative more than opiniated. I don't consider myself a Saddam "apologist".

One friendly point of advice as well: if you want your opinion to have a little more weight with me, try to avoid attacking me personally through thinly veiled statements. Swearing also doesn't leave much of an impression on me, as it demonstrates that you're letting emotions cloud your judgement. Sometimes that is needed, but I'm here to exchange ideas, not to fight. Remember that arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded... (crude but true, sorry...)

Finally, my burning hatred for the US gov't doesn't turn me into a Saddam-fan either. Just because someone hated Hitler, does that mean that they automatically have to love Stalin? No.

sigh

s.

_

Hasta la Victoria Siempre

I respect someone who is willing to die for what they believe in much more than I do someone who is willing to kill for the same reason.

[Just Joe]

Remember that arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded

oh boy I am using that line :biggrin:

anyway welcome Steve. I'm no fan of Saddam either, but I don't just nod and accept as truth the crap the Western media comes out with. Living though the tail end of the Cold War made me develop a bull shit detector when it comes to media reports on 'hostile regimes'.

good to have you here. I'm sure you'll contribute well.

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Quote: from Republican Guard on 10:50 pm on April 3, 2003
As a ideological moderate secularist, he understood that the diversity of Iraqs' peoples was in fact its strength.



That answer's that.


Quote: from Republican Guard on 10:50 pm on April 3, 2003

I'm not going to get into the details of why or how it happened, but the Iran - Iraq war devastated the country. At the same time, fervent Shi'ite muslims in the south - encouraged by Iran and Saudi Arabia - became fed up with Saddams' secularism and began to revolt. This, combined with a growing yearning for independence among the Kurds in the north, led to some very bad decisions on his part (ie the draining of the southern marshes and the gassing of the Kurds, which was actually ordered without his approval, but which he had to subsequently take responsibility for, lest he appear that he was not in control of his own army).

So, he executes, the Shi'ite majority, the Kurds and the Communists who were all of course to blame for getting on the wrong side of him. Who did he spare then may I ask you?


Quote: from Republican Guard on 10:50 pm on April 3, 2003
Fast forward through the Kuwait invasion (provoked by Kuwait after refusing to pay protection fees to Iraq, and endorsed by the US) and to the present day.

I don't think I even need to address that.



Quote: from Republican Guard on 10:50 pm on April 3, 2003
"In 1979 Hussein became president. Subsequently, he executed hundreds of high ranking party members and army officers who he suspected of being disloyal, beginning a long rein of crimes as Iraq's dictator. Hussein’s brutality and willingness to torture and murder anyone he sees as a threat has earned him the moniker, Butcher of Baghdad."

Isn't is amazing how this description can be applied to the vast majority of dictators in the 20th century? Simply replace "Saddam", "1979" and "Baghdad" with your favorite choice of leader and capital. Did I say that he was a saint? No. Am I a Saddam apologist? No. I was merely trying to put the facts out from a different point of view.

Oh I guess every other dictator in history did it, so that makes it alright? Furthermore, I not duped neither by western propaganda claims. However, I do believe my genuine Iraqi friends and their families who have all suffered under Saddam (Shi'ite, Sunnis, Communists, Assyrians, Kurds). I do know that the US put him there in the first place, and I do know that the 5,000,000 Iraqi exiles and those who can't speak against him inside Iraq wish to see him suffer just as he made Iraq and the Iraqi people suffer for so long. [/quote]

Finally, if I was being antagonistic towards you earlier then perhaps it is because I detected a hint of pro-baathism and Saddam in your article. If I am mistaken, then please accept my deepest apologies. If I am right, then FUCK YOU.

(Edited by LeonardoDaVinci at 5:55 pm on April 4, 2003)

[thursday night]

DaVinchi: Yes, the invasion of Kuwait is a far more complex issue than some lunatic-dictator invading a neighbouring country. Kuwait had been a part of Iraq since the days of the Ottoman Empire, but only in the early/mid fifties did the British retain it as a protectorate while allowing the rest of Iraq to have independence. The sovereignty of Iraq has claimed Kuwait far before Saddam Hussein came to power. Does this excuse the invasion of Kuwait? I don’t think so, but it is important to note.

Furthermore, when the invasion began, an Iraqi official met with the American ambassador to ask what the United States’ opinion on the matter was. The ambassador said something along the lines of ‘America has no position right now.’ That, if anything, seems like a go ahead to me.

Edit: Comrade RG, I am Canadian too. Vancouver. :)

(Edited by thursday night at 6:21 pm on April 4, 2003)

[Dhul Fiqar]

Welcome Republican Guard!

VERY interesting first thread I must say. I especially liked your points abour Tariq Aziz (sp?), very few people realize he's a Christian and one of the few people in the top of the regime that are not highly shady characters. Or at least that has been my perception of him, I feel he should have a future place in Iraq.

Anyway, welcome again , I for one appreciate your contribution so far, it's very interesting to hear an intelligent Iraqis views on the war in these times :)

--- G.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Welcome RG!
Good to have people that actually lived in the places we talk about.

[Republican Guard]

"Quote: from Republican Guard on 10:50 pm on April 3, 2003
As a ideological moderate secularist, he understood that the diversity of Iraqs' peoples was in fact its strength.
[/quote]


That answer's that. "

- Ummm... WHAT?!? All I said was that Saddam was moderate at his inception into the Iraqi presidency. I never said he was or is "benign"...


"So, he executes, the Shi'ite majority, the Kurds and the Communists who were all of course to blame for getting on the wrong side of him. Who did he spare then may I ask you? "

- He executed the Shi'ite majority? Explain why Iraq is still MAJORITY Shi'ite and that the Shi'ites are fighting the invasion US army as fervently as the Sunnis and Christians?


"I don't think I even need to address that. "

-Again.... WHAT?


"Oh I guess every other dictator in history did it, so that makes it alright? Furthermore, I not duped neither by western propaganda claims. However, I do believe my genuine Iraqi friends and their families who have all suffered under Saddam (Shi'ite, Sunnis, Communists, Assyrians, Kurds). I do know that the US put him there in the first place, and I do know that the 5,000,000 Iraqi exiles and those who can't speak against him inside Iraq wish to see him suffer just as he made Iraq and the Iraqi people suffer for so long. "

- Hmmm... my heritage is Christian Assyrian, and let me assure you that compared to how we were treated BEFORE Saddam, his "Iron Grip" led my family to prosperity and respect that would have been unheard-of under the British-instilled monarchy or anyone else who ruled Iraq since the Viziers of the 1200s... and 5,000,000 Iraq exiles? Again, that's a strong number... no country could expel 1/3 of its population and survive and prosper as it did, I'm sorry. I am a proud Iraqi and have MANY Iraqi friends and family. Some did suffer unduly under Saddam. Most of us didn't. In this light, I could just as well be Russian, Cuban, Jordanian, or Egyptian...

"Finally, if I was being antagonistic towards you earlier then perhaps it is because I detected a hint of pro-baathism and Saddam in your article. If I am mistaken, then please accept my deepest apologies. If I am right, then FUCK YOU. "

- Thank you. If I choose not to reply to you in the future, please do not mistake that for complacency, ignorance, or a lack of imagination.

s.

_

Hasta la Victoria Siempre

I respect someone who is willing to die for what they believe in much more than I do someone who is willing to kill for the same reason.

[Zombie]

Hey RG thx for clearing out that bracelet issue ;)
This thread is certainly interesting, but alas I don't have much time to add something coherent to it for now, I'm tired and my 3 week exam period is starting in 2 days... I'm late in my studies and no need to say I'm very pissed about that.

I didn't know you were a neighbor of mine ;) I too live in Montreal, been here for 9 months already...

Z.

[truthaddict11]

thanks RG its nice to hear perspective other than the pundits on televison

[hawarameen]

Ahhh i see we get the picture now, saddams rise to power has meant your family has prospered. why didnt you say?

i give people respect, then its up to them to loose it, this is haw i work.
you may have lived in iraq but i know you dont know what goes on there, did the whole anfal campaign slip past you? halabja is one thing kid, they were only 5000, no im talking about the anfal campaign where something in the region of 200,000 people were killed.

people are executed in busy market places while their parents watch and clap, you are correct, this does happen in most countries around the world.

Iran - Iraq war, the shah of iran was helping the kurds in iraq, saddam gave (basically) the shah the persian gulf in return for stopping the support to the kurds. he stoped and for their trechory saddam started anfal. when that was done, saddam wanted the gulf back so he went to war over it.

just because you didnt suffer under saddam it does not make you the benchmark, find out about what is happening in your iraq.

he removed the bullet from his own leg? what a hero, he then proceeded to leap over tall buildings? you can say you dont support saddam as many times as you like but its not the message im getting.

let me tell you something about your country, kurds and arabs are different, stop this crap about splitting up iraq. what is iraq? nothing, it was made by the british, it would not be there if it wasnt for them and if you want to be technical, the british split up kurdistan into four pieses iraq, iran turkey syria. the kurds have ethnic origins dating way beyond arabs.

everything i read from you looses that much more respect. yes yes tariq aziz is such a lovely nice man. could YOU please show some suporting rhetoric?

can i ask if you know how your father came about to live in mosul?
i ask because as part of anfal, hundreds of thousands of families were forced out of their homes in kurdish cities and replaced with arabs as part of saddams arabisation policy.

about the singer, there was one in particular who refused to sing for saddam, he was quite famous in kurdistan and he was killed, this was announced by the government, if this is anti iraqi propaganda then the iraqi government should rethink its strategy

for an iraqi you dont know much about YOUR country do you?

my respect for you is rapidly decreasing.

[thursday night]

Don't listen to those who are so totally blinded by the Western media's twenty-four hour attack of propaganda, Republican Guard, because I think that you're insight is excellent and very much so needed when trying to find an independent viewpoint.

[Dhul Fiqar]

I realize Hawar has personal involvement in this issue, but it's almost like he's replying to different posts than the ones I'm reading.

I don't see a supporter of the atrocities committed in Iraq, I see a pragmatic person not willing to buy into the "Saddam and Osama are the devil and have no non-murderous aspects or ideas" routine.

In any case, welcome. It's been interesting so far :)

--- G.

[Wolfie]

Bit late, but welcome RG all the same.
And for those trying to use speculation against this guy remember his parents are from Iraq, and i would imagine most of his insight came from talking to them so please dont make out you know everything. Thanks.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Welcome dude, nice article.

I see Saddam Hussain as a typical example of someone who is corrupted by power.

BTW, could you tell me some about the Republican Gaurd?

Their training, skill level etc.

Because I am hearing so much about them and how the Coalition forces are fearing them, but it could also be an excuse to bomb every building where they "suspect" to contain RG's.

So please tell me something about them.

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Quote: from thursday night on 7:43 am on April 5, 2003
Don't listen to those who are so totally blinded by the Western media's twenty-four hour attack of propaganda, Republican Guard, because I think that you're insight is excellent and very much so needed when trying to find an independent viewpoint.


Aaah.. I see, so my views about Saddam and his Baath regime are naturally formed by CNN, NBC and FOX NEWS. It has nothing to do with the fact that many of my friends (including my best friend) are Iraqi exiles whose families escaped the torture chambers of Saddam (I've yet to meet any Saddam apologists in London although I'm sure they exist); nothing to do with the fact that my father is a historian whose particular field of interest is the Middle East region; and nothing to do with the fact that I have a very good knowledge of the region being of Arabic descent myself.

Now I am very sorry if so many of you here think that I am being totally unfair and antagonistic towards Republican Guard. But I think the only other Iraqi or Iraqi/Kurd person here other than Republican Guard is HAWARAMEEN, who like me seems to see right through his thinly veiled arguments which are blatantly pro-Saddam and Baath party.

Republican Guard seems to spread lies such as the view that Saddam helped overthrew the pro-British government in Iraq. Actually, like I said before, if most of you bother to check the history books you will see that he was one of the six assassins who attempted to murder the pro-communists Prime Minister Abul Karim Qasim who indeed was the person who led the rebellion against the pro-western Iraqi monarchy and who had popular backing in the country due to his popular promises of land reform and negotiations for a greater share of the oil wealth. That assassination attempt failed, but later in 1963 with the aid of the CIA Al Baath organised another coup in which Saddam played a major role. The rest of course is history, I explained it in my earlier posts and I am not going to go through it again.

Furthermore, as Hawarameen has already highlighted, if his family is one of the few who prospered under Saddam Hussein's murderous regime then that really explains his stance doesn't it. And one more reason why this guy doesn't warrant my respect is the way in which he excuses Saddam for slaughtering thousands upon thousands of Shi'ites, Kurds and Communists by deeming that it was the necessary action to keep the country together. Nothing to do with quelling any opposition to his tyranny of course.

Oh yeah.. and in your reply to your earlier question Republican Guard "He executed the Shi'ite majority? Explain why Iraq is still MAJORITY Shi'ite and that the Shi'ites are fighting the invasion US army as fervently as the Sunnis and Christians?"
Well the Shi'ites are known for their bravery and are above all proud Iraqis, and they rightly see this as an American invasion of their land and so they will fight it just as any decent Iraqi will try yo defend his land. Need I remind you that even in the Iran-Iraq war that they fought ferociously against the Iranians despite the Iranian's calls for them to join their shi'ite brothers in the fight against Saddam. The same bravery which they displayed in ousting the Ottoman rulers rom Iraq.

Also, I think for someone to use REPUBLICAN GUARD as his member name displays either an ignorance of the cruelty annd barbarity of Saddam's personal stooges or even worse an admiration for those sick bastards and in both cases is inexcusable.

Finally, I realise that so many of you here are against the war and so am I. However, in no way should that act as an excuse to forget Saddam's deplorable crimes against the majority (YES, THE MAJORITY) of his people just because he is standing up to America. For Saddam is just another Noriega in Panama, a crude murderous despot that was put there by America in the first place and who then turned on them. But to support them and ignore their hideous crimes against their own people just because they later had a conflict of interests with America is to dismiss your socilaist grassroots which stand for equality for and the alleviation of suffering for all.

[hawarameen]

i along with leonardo have have been accused of listening to american propaganda, i really thought people on this site had far more intelligence than to assume this. like he said AGAIN i am kurdish, lived in iraq, suffered in iraq, know people who have suffered in iraq and he likewise knows people who have suffered in iraq yet we base our opinions on american propaganda?? do you all realise how rediculous this sounds??

i am really glad that your family has prospered under saddam, good for you, great. just know that your families prosperity has come at a price to many other people living in iraq for instance there are TO THIS DAY people living in tents who were evicted from their homes in kurdish cities back in the 1980's. your families prosperity has meant that people have had to live in tents for 20 years, i am really happy for you.

if we are talking about propaganda i know i would much rather belive western propaganda than that of the iraqi's so i suggest that RG stops listening to the crap that the iraqis have told his parents, listen to the people who have been affected. according to iraq the coalition forces are still trapped in Um Qasr, cornered and being bombed!! this is an example of their rediculous claims, i know which propaganda i would rather listen to.

like i said RG had my respect, he lost it, i welcomed the guy but he really does not know what he is on about.

Leonardo

[i]Finally, I realise that so many of you here are against the war and so am I. However, in no way should that act as an excuse to forget Saddam's deplorable crimes against the majority (YES, THE MAJORITY) of his people just because he is standing up to America. For Saddam is just another Noriega in Panama, a crude murderous despot that was put there by America in the first place and who then turned on them. But to support them and ignore their hideous crimes against their own people just because they later had a conflict of interests with America is to dismiss your socilaist grassroots which stand for equality for and the alleviation of suffering for all.[i]

dito!

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Thanks hawarameen, it's nice to see that someone else here can differentiate between facts and bullshit.

[LeonardoDaVinci]

And here is also a list of Iraqi exiles and their opinion of Saddam Hussein and Al Ba'ath Party as well as this imperialist war. They or their families were of course the unfortunate few who got on the wrong side of Saddam,

Fareena Alam and Franziska Thomas
Sunday March 23, 2003

Saddam Hussein and I hail from the same village of Tikrit, north of Baghdad. I left Iraq when I was three years old and have never returned since. My father was a staunch opponent of the Ba'ath regime which brought Saddam to power, and Iraq was no place for a political critic to live.
I am a lifelong enemy of the regime, and have always dreamt of the day when I will live in a free and safe homeland. However, this war is not the road through which I want to realise my dream. For decades, Western allies have befriended Saddam, giving him the means to brutally oppress his people. At his most vulnerable after the first Gulf war, the US and allied forces imposed sanctions that until today prevent Iraqis from overthrowing Saddam.

The day when the first missiles were fired was a black day in our history. A mandate akin to the 'law of the jungle' was reinforced and the British government was enthusiastically part of it. The blood of the Iraqi people, and the looming occupation of Iraq and the ramifications throughout the already boiling region, will be something we will have to contend with and carry on our conscience.
- Anas Altikriti, 34, Leeds, West Yorkshire

I was born on 5 April 1980. That day Saddam's 'amn arrived at our family home and rounded up my extended family. We were later driven by army trucks to the Iranian border. As Shias, we were being persecuted for our religion - my aunts and uncles used to frequent mosques.

We nearly lost my mother on our journey into Iran. She was hemorrhaging heavily. We eventually made it into Iran's refugee camps, where we were reunited with my father who had been detained separately.

My aunt, her husband, her two year old daughter and one of my uncles were also detained. My aunt was raped, soaked with fuel along with her young daughter and set afire in front of her husband. He soon followed the same fate. As for my uncle, we are unsure of his whereabouts.

We spent several months in Iran, nearly six years in Syria, six years in Greece, before moving to Canada in the early 1990s. We struggled to find a country that welcomed refugees. After eight years in Canada, I moved to the UK to enter university in 1999.

I still have a great number of family members in Iraq. We have been told that many in Baghdad say they are willing to be collateral damage as long as Saddam is overthrown. There is no realistic method of removing Saddam apart from military intervention.
- Sama Hadad, 23, Medical student, St George's Hospital

I came to Britain as a Kurdish asylum seeker in 1997. To be a Kurd in Iraq is to be a third class citizen. In 1985, my entire family was arrested. My brothers were part of an underground movement so they were brutally tortured. Along with others in my extended family, one was eventually killed. I once applied for a Masters course but was denied entry because I refused to join the Ba'ath party. I eventually became a lawyer and was for some years married to a PKU politician. Under this onus, I campaigned vigorously with the women's movement but was forced to flee after extremist Islamic groups threatened my life.

Nobody wants war. Thousands of people have fled to the cold mountains which have no clean water or refugee camps. The border is littered with mines. If the war does not end in a few days, there will be a serious humanitarian disaster. But peace is no better. Peace with Saddam is like peace with the devil. With all due respect to anti-war demonstrators, it's laughable to see communists and Islamists marching on the same platform - all they demonstrate is their anti-Americanism.

The Kurds must be part of the future plan for Iraq. Or else, the region will never see stability. There is no point in removing Saddam only to replace him with a dictator just like him, only pro-American. I want to return home to Kurdistan where my parents live but not until there is freedom and political stability.
- Mehabad Salih, 35, Kurdish asylum seeker, London

I left Iraq at the age of four, and lived in Iran for two years before arriving in London 18 years ago. I left with my mother and four sisters to join our father who had already fled. I now work as a designer in London, but I worry for the population of Iraq especially my family. We have never had choices or a democratically elected President. I think the average person understands our plight, but politicians remain ignorant to what the Iraqi people really need. The population has suffered too much already and the war brings nothing but a promise of anger and a chemical wasteland. I am also concerned about US designs on Iraq. The Iraqi people do not deserve to have one dictator replaced by another under a facade of democracy. We need help to get rid of Saddam, without weapons and we need to choose our own democratic leader.
- Susan Salehi, 24, Iraqi Kurd, Designer in London

My parents lived in Baghdad; my father, a member of the Shia opposition, was an electrical engineer and my mother a Math teacher. One night 22 years ago, the 'amn came to arrest my father and my pregnant mother, but neither was at home. My father fled to Iran and my mother to Northern Iraq, not knowing if they'd ever see each other again. While in hiding my mother gave birth to me. A year later, by sheer coincidence, my parents found each other. My mother learnt that Saddam's regime had executed her sister, two brothers and her baby niece. My father continued to actively oppose the regime from Iran, but was always fearful of what the regime would do to his family in Iraq. He never communicated with his family, afraid to reveal a link between him and them.

In 1987 we came to the UK. My father still works for the opposition. I now study medicine at Imperial College where I have set up the Iraqi Society.

This war will not be like the last Gulf War. The US plans to rule Iraq so perhaps the infrastructure will largely remain intact. There are signs that Saddam's army will not fight for him because it is not loyalty but fear that drives them. With a weakened Saddam, the people of Iraq will rise up against the regime. But will the US allow genuine democracy to be established - a government of the people, by the people, for the people?
- Yasser Alaskary, 22, Medical Student, Imperial College, London

I'm an Arab Iraqi born and brought up in Baghdad. Following the Gulf War, my family realised that we had no future in Iraq and so we left our home in 1991 and came to the UK. I became a British citizen in 1996 and after graduating with a law degree; I now work as a management consultant.

Although I supported the Gulf War (after all Saddam Hussein had invaded a neighbouring country) and fully support regime change in Iraq, I am vehemently against this war. It is unprovoked, unjustified and unsupported by the majority of the international community.

It's all too easy to forget the human tragedy of war for the people having to survive through it. I still remember the horrific details of life during the first Gulf War very vividly. Today, Iraqis are paying a dear price for the mistakes of someone they never chose. They never asked for any of this, and they are trapped between a dictator that doesn't care about them and a president obsessed with war

I fear what this war will bring there is too much uncertainty about the outcome and no guarantees of success. If we get this wrong, we'll never be forgiven - and rightly so.
- Juan Allos, 24, Arab Iraqi (Catholic)

My father, brother and I fled to Moscow 23 years ago after soldiers threatened to rape me on account of my mother's political activities. She was an active member of the Iraqi Communist Party (ICP) and the Iraqi Women's League. My father was an international law lecturer and had contacts who were able smuggle us out in 1980. I was 16; my brother was 14. After attending medical school in Moscow, I arrived in London 13 years ago.

There is a feeling deep inside of me I find it difficult to articulate when I think of Saddam and all the fear he has instilled in the Iraqi people, and all he torture he has inflicted upon innocent civilians. We have been deprived of living in peace for many yeras and even outside Iraq I do not find tranquility and continue to fear Iraqi people. Saddam has made us very cynical, but we need international help, not bombs. The Iraqi people are now exhausted and depressed. Since this crisis has begun, the media has consistently asked what sect we are from. It is a stupid question used to attempt to segregate us. I am an Iraqi, anything else I consider irrelevant.
- Dr. Shatha Besarani, 38, London

I was forced to leave Iraq one year before Saddam had assumed the presidency in Iraq in 1979. In late 1977 Saddam instructed his apparatus of violence to wage ruthless campaign of terror against those who did not support, adhere or show obedience to his murderous rule. I am one of those Iraqis who resisted his internal policies of genocide and external policies of war and aggression. Thus I had no choice but to flee Iraq or face imprisonment or even death.

The people of Iraq once again face the danger of invasion and military, which could only bring death and destruction. The Iraqi people have already endured terrible suffering as a result of two external wars Iran-Iraq (1980-1988) and the Gulf war (1991) and continue internal war, in addition to 12 years of economic sanctions. No doubt the majority of Iraqis want to get rid of Saddam's dictatorial regime and to bring a genuine democratic change guided by the rule of law and parliamentary democracy. But war, invasion and foreign military occupation cannot lead to a true democracy. War is worse and most destructive alternative. I fear the US will retain control of Iraq long after Saddam is removed and will not hand power to Iraqis for years to come. I fear the US will destroy Iraq's infrastructure.
- Abdullah Mushin, London

But of course, who gives a shit. They are all elements of the western propaganda machine, aren't they?

[hawarameen]

Leonardo.

now now, you know bwtter than to listen to american propaganda!

the experiences of those mentioned above are just a small example of what goes on in YOUR country RG

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I know it's a late reply, but I've only just found this forum...

redstar, the reasons for Saddam attacking the Great Islamic Republic are, as Republican Guard said, not very clear. However the liklehood is that it was firstly because America was hugely opposed to The Ayatollah Khomeini's new Islamic State, probably simply because it was proving the power religion still had. Like Republican Guard said, Iraq was then an ally to Washington so Saddam would've wanted to capitalise on aid he could've, and did, receive from America.

Secondly, Saddam's attack was probably fuelled by a personal battle with the great man on my avatar. The two men despised eachother. Saddam hating Khomeini because of his love of religion and Khomeini hating Saddam for his secular views. Of course, this sort of contrast in beliefs between leaders only ever results in conflict.

Let us just thank God that Khomeini and the Mullah's did not fold under the Iraqi-American attack. Who knows, Saddam might've been in control of Iran now otherwise. Long live the Islamic Republic.