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mzalendo
11th April 2006, 06:55
There is sometimes the temptation to think that the many people who will flock the world’s various churches today will do so out of a deep-seated hatred for the devil and an innate impulse to pursue goodness.

For today, as indeed every Sunday, the devil is always in the detail. And he is always in so much trouble that every word that comes from the mouths of the faithful is a condemnation, an insult, an accusation, an imprecation.

Never mind that the only indication that the devil exists is perhaps the fact that his opposite, God, exists.

If you asked Russian writer Fyodor Dostoyevsky, he would tell you that if the devil indeed exists, we have created him in our image. In many ways, perhaps, we will go to church today to lay blame on a bogeyman, the one object which we use as an excuse for our failings, for our failure to do what is considered good. If the devil did not exist, the world would probably be a very boring place and there would be many churchmen out of jobs.

For he has created a huge industry. Sin, or the devil (whatever he may be) has created a monumental industry that employs millions. And if the devil does, indeed, exist he must be a very proud being, seeing as he does that he keeps so many people gainfully employed and that he is always in the headlines of people’s minds wherever they gather to worship.

Which raises a critical question touched on at the beginning of this essay. Will all those who will go to church today and every other Sunday go to sincerely condemn the devil and extol the virtues of the Lord? Sometimes I have this feeling that we should cut out the devil in our worship. Why do we have to bring him in and give him an added exaltation in the affairs of man?

It is simply because without him, there would be no worship, there would probably be no religion and God would only be relevant in so far as he created us and because of the possibility that we, at one time, would be in some reunion with Him as the Good Book says.

Those who dispute this postulate might want to ask themselves this question: Do all those preachers who will be condemning the devil tomorrow and urging the people to get saved sincerely believe the world would be a better place if the devil was not there? Would they really want more and more souls to get saved? What would happen if all, including the devil got saved?

They would find themselves out of a job and they do not want this. The business of saving souls is therefore just a business, not anything driven by the contingent desire to have everyone in God’s camp. So far, religion is lucky that the devil, if he indeed exists, has not heeded calls to decamp.

In many ways, I think the devil is the starring character in the soap opera that religion sometimes degenerates into. For instance, if tomorrow a popular preacher announced that his main guest would be the devil himself, how many people would be crushed to death in the stampede that would follow as hundreds of thousands rush to catch a glimpse of the character they have conducted a huge hate campaign against for the better part of their lives? You can bet on it. Other churches would empty and the only one that everyone would want to go to, is the one where the devil would be making an appearance. Why?

Because the idea of Satan has that je ne sais qoui that forms an integral part of our worship, our being. It is our reason for hope because for hope to exist, the fear of hopelessness has to be there to. We simply cannot do without him even though we profess outwardly that we hate him and would never want to have an encounter with him.

We all know that for one to completely vanquish an enemy or a hated one, all you need is to eject him out of our lives, our discourses, and our thoughts. But we do not do this with the devil.

We keep him alive, we give him significance; we make him the competing character of the business of worship.

Yet, we also know that we do not have to keep both God and the devil side by side in order to extol the virtues of God and magnify the evil of the devil. If the goodness of God is an immanence in the affairs and history of the universe, it need not be proven by the creation or the comparison of its opposite. Evil too is an all-pervading thing and it need not be compared to good for it to attain significance.

Which brings me to the other question: If the devil is there and is responsible for the evil that we see, and seeing that in all the years human beings have engaged in the business of hating him they have not succeeded, why don’t the churchmen adopt another technique to beat him? Why don’t they just give him a blackout and see if he will fight back (if at all he exists)?

Why, if we are sincere in vanquishing him, do we not try to deal him what may amount to a coup de grace, let him vanish from our thoughts and then concentrate in worshipping God purely on the basis of the fact that we owe fealty to Him as our creator and not a creator who, if we do not keep pummeling His adversary, would be eclipsed by him?

If we did this, we probably would get the answer to this troublesome question: Can religion exist without the devil?

VonClausewitz
11th April 2006, 18:12
Christianity could well exist without it's devil, I'm sure that the rest of the religious world wouldn't be too troubled if he was suddenly dropped off the face of the earth.

chaval
11th April 2006, 20:26
For today, as indeed every Sunday, the devil is always in the detail. And he is always in so much trouble that every word that comes from the mouths of the faithful is a condemnation, an insult, an accusation, an imprecation.

holy crap what church do you go to?!? thats the most intense thing ive ever heard. too bad ive never witnessed anything like it. must be an american thing or something



he is always in the headlines of people’s minds wherever they gather to worship.


i dont really agree with this. if you ask most churchgoers what they are thinking of when they go to chruch i dont htink most would say "the devil". how about God?


It is simply because without [the devil], there would be no worship, there would probably be no religion

no not at all. in fact there are religions which dont even have a concept of the devil. in fact the importance of the devil side in the world usually began to take a greater role in religions after they were started. the focus has always been on God and the devil (assuming you he dont believe in him) would be created in an attempt of poeple trying to justify the bad things taht happen in the world. taht isnt to say taht without the devil religon falls apart. people would just have a harder time understanding why bad things happen. im religious and when bad things happen i dont blame them on the devil. in fact i haddly even think about the devil...


The business of saving souls is therefore just a business, not anything driven by the contingent desire to have everyone in God’s camp. So far, religion is lucky that the devil, if he indeed exists, has not heeded calls to decamp

in Islam those who go to hell are only there for a limited period of time. in the end everyone ends up in heaven, although im sure most muslims are unaware of this. there tends to be a lot of misunderstanding about islam even among muslims (like with all religions) for instance the 70(?) virgins in heaven is total bs. so if all end up in heaven then thre most be something more to it than just salvation.
in fact many religious figures wouls say that one must love God for his greatness/goodness and not just cause you want salvation (which would be wrong


Why, if we are sincere in vanquishing him, do we not try to deal him what may amount to a coup de grace, let him vanish from our thoughts and then concentrate in worshipping God

well i could say that no we are not so sincere. everytime someone does something knowingly wrong then you allow him to persist. because humans tend to err in their doing we allow him to continue to exist. if everyone acted righteously then we wouldnt ahve to worry about him but as long as theres someone out there who is doing "evil" then thats not a possibility

red team
11th April 2006, 21:27
That is very true. :P

The devil must exist, otherwise who else would be able to "possess" your mother who you are now forced to burn to death. :o

Devil Possessed Mother (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0%2C5478%2C18774386%25255E2862%2C00.html)

Yep, must be the devil alright! :lol:

Disciple of Prometheus
11th April 2006, 23:24
If we did this, we probably would get the answer to this troublesome question: Can religion exist without the devil?

Shortly, no it can not.

The archetype of the adversary is with in every religion, and it is ironically the black heart of every religion. Without the devil they would have no inspiration or reason, to try to be holy, or pure. Mara (buddhism), the Asuras (hinduism), Satan (christianity), Iblis (islam), Shaitan (juadism), all the worlds major religions, the devil is what they strive not to be because of the human conception of what is "holy," and "divine."

What has become "holy," is to reject everything carnal, and pleasurable, thus god represents all those qualities that isn't human, and Satan represents all the carnal, and beastial instincts we inherently have. Religions are a forced aversion to carnality; meaning they are forcing the masses to deny what makes humans, humans, and to strive to be something that is false.

Satan, or the adversary is a religion's best friend, it's what keeps them on track, without him, the religions would collapse because it would seem silly to strive for nirvana, if they did not have the fear of the cycle of births, and or Mara (temptation), because what would be the point in it? There would be none, they would finally see it is a spiritual pipe-dream. That is why, religions, have developed all these reason why you should and try to deny the archetype of Satan, and say "we wish to destroy that old serpent, that ole' goat that deceiveth man," but truly, every priest knows deep in their heart, Satan is the Atlas of religion, without him, it would fall and crumble.

We created god in our own image, not Satan, because Satan is man, and god is what man wishes was there, what he wishes life is all about, what he wishes he was, it is a reactionary conception to the harshness of nature and the envitability of our lots in life. So thus religion makes man dawn the rosey spectactles of religious superstion, hope, and altruism. The following quotes I believe sum it up;

"Fear is the mother of morality."-Friedrich Nietzsche

"Christianity gave Eros poison to drink; he did not die of it but degenerated into vice."-Friedrich Nietzsche

"He that humbleth himself wishes to be exalted."-Friedrich Nietzsche

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. Is not life a hundred times too short for us to bore ourselves?"-Friedrich Nietzsche

marxistmichael
12th April 2006, 07:01
look buddy,not everyone goes to church or believes in some deity for that matter..i happen to be a kaffir with rich knowledge of religion be it christianity or islam..after much research n soul searching i came to a conclusion that religion is an illusion based on fear and ignorance and characterised by irrational obssession....but the bottom line as somebody pointed out is that the devil is central to every religion.period!

fernando
12th April 2006, 20:47
Doesnt every system/ideology/religion need an enemy to push off against.
Religions need their deity of evil to keep their followers obedient. The communists need capitalism to push against, the anarchists need an established government and the capitalists have equality as their nemisis.

Nicky Scarfo
12th April 2006, 21:02
Originally posted by Disciple of [email protected] 11 2006, 10:33 PM

If we did this, we probably would get the answer to this troublesome question: Can religion exist without the devil?

Shortly, no it can not.

The archetype of the adversary is with in every religion, and it is ironically the black heart of every religion. Without the devil they would have no inspiration or reason, to try to be holy, or pure. Mara (buddhism), the Asuras (hinduism), Satan (christianity), Iblis (islam), Shaitan (juadism), all the worlds major religions, the devil is what they strive not to be because of the human conception of what is "holy," and "divine."

What has become "holy," is to reject everything carnal, and pleasurable, thus god represents all those qualities that isn't human, and Satan represents all the carnal, and beastial instincts we inherently have. Religions are a forced aversion to carnality; meaning they are forcing the masses to deny what makes humans, humans, and to strive to be something that is false.

Satan, or the adversary is a religion's best friend, it's what keeps them on track, without him, the religions would collapse because it would seem silly to strive for nirvana, if they did not have the fear of the cycle of births, and or Mara (temptation), because what would be the point in it? There would be none, they would finally see it is a spiritual pipe-dream. That is why, religions, have developed all these reason why you should and try to deny the archetype of Satan, and say "we wish to destroy that old serpent, that ole' goat that deceiveth man," but truly, every priest knows deep in their heart, Satan is the Atlas of religion, without him, it would fall and crumble.

We created god in our own image, not Satan, because Satan is man, and god is what man wishes was there, what he wishes life is all about, what he wishes he was, it is a reactionary conception to the harshness of nature and the envitability of our lots in life. So thus religion makes man dawn the rosey spectactles of religious superstion, hope, and altruism. The following quotes I believe sum it up;

"Fear is the mother of morality."-Friedrich Nietzsche

"Christianity gave Eros poison to drink; he did not die of it but degenerated into vice."-Friedrich Nietzsche

"He that humbleth himself wishes to be exalted."-Friedrich Nietzsche

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. Is not life a hundred times too short for us to bore ourselves?"-Friedrich Nietzsche
This is a good analysis of monotheistic religions with origins in the Middle East (Xian, Jew, Muslim, Druze, various Gnostics, etc.), but I'm not so certain this applies to Eastern, Pagan and Other religions as well. For example, none of this would apply to Buddhism. Some may apply to Hinduism-- not sure, but I'm guessing a lot wouldn't. Even amongst certain Deist groups with Xian origins-- Unitarians, Universalists, Quakers-- the role of the devil is subdued or entirely nonexistent.

And even mainline Abrahamic faiths differ substantially as to the importance they ascribe to the devil-- with Evangelical Protestants at one end of the spectrum and Reform Jews at the other. Within that spectrum there are many differing levels of the importance of Satan in various Jewish, Xian, Gnostic and Muslim sects.

redstar2000
14th April 2006, 03:58
Originally posted by chaval
In Islam those who go to Hell are only there for a limited period of time. In the end everyone ends up in Heaven, although I'm sure most Muslims are unaware of this.

Do you have a verse from the Qu'ran to justify this?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

chaval
14th April 2006, 22:19
ill find out, its not like i ahve it memorized in the meantime

"Every man's deed have We fastened on his own neck. On the Day of judgement We shall bring out for him a scroll which he will see spread open. Read your own record: only you, you alone on this day make out an account against you" Surah 17:13-14

surah is canonical

redstar2000
16th April 2006, 01:23
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 04:28 PM
ill find out, its not like i have it memorized in the meantime

"Every man's deed have We fastened on his own neck. On the Day of judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll which he will see spread open. Read your own record: only you, you alone on this day make out an account against you" Surah 17:13-14

surah is canonical
I hope you can locate a "definitive" quotation; it would be very useful in embarrassing the followers of the "loving Jesus". :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

Disciple of Prometheus
17th April 2006, 23:02
Originally posted by Nicky [email protected] 12 2006, 08:17 PM
This is a good analysis of monotheistic religions with origins in the Middle East (Xian, Jew, Muslim, Druze, various Gnostics, etc.), but I'm not so certain this applies to Eastern, Pagan and Other religions as well.
The adversary exists in all religions even in the Eastern and so called "pagan," religions of today.

The vast majority of pagans today try to rewrite what paganism actually was, and the shy away from the more darker deities like Morrigan, Hades, Ares, and anything that is remotely related to darkness, and only focus on the light-based deities, and the light aspects. It is terribly ironic when they claim that they don't believe in evil, and christians are stupid for thinking something is evil, but yet all they so it could be said that dark deities represent the so called negativity of nature, i.e., the adversary.

All they do is replace the word evil with negative, and think it is completely different intent/meaning. Furthermore they go on to claim that the ancients didn't believe in an evil god/ess, and such which is as stupid as going up to an Egyptian and saying "hey you know Apep, isn't really evil," when to the ancient Egyptians, Apep was the embodiment of greatest evil, to the extent where he was worshiped against, had a book that taught how to rituals against him and protect ones self against him, and was never depicted with out some other deity harming or binding it.

As for Eastern philosophies such as Buddhism for example Mara was essentially the devil, because he tempted buddha much in the same vein as Satan tempted jesus, and embodies sin, lust, and temptation; or to some just temptation.

In Hinduism, there is plenty of demonic entities and such, and a belief in Kali Yuga, or the Age of Iron, which some Hindu's think we are currently living in.

My point being that no theistic religion is free from the adversarial Atlas.

dislatino
18th April 2006, 13:00
If you Believe in God then you believe that you Lived (Devil), without the knowledge of God the devil would have not been created, its a ying and yang thing, i think that religions follow this.

Disciple of Prometheus
18th April 2006, 22:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 12:15 PM
If you Believe in God then you believe that you Lived (Devil), without the knowledge of God the devil would have not been created, its a ying and yang thing, i think that religions follow this.
Christianity (which is what your post seems to be talking about), has never been about ying and yang, it's been about the total and complete rejection of darkness, and things deemed unholy, and the exhalation of everything that is light, and "holy." It is largely based on dualism, not balance.