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Rawthentic
10th April 2006, 21:43
After reading this article, Im beginning to question my support for the RCP and its line. Please read and tell me what you think.


The Revolutionary Communist Party USA is a product of the mass movements of the 1960's. Many of its founders, including their leader, Bob Avakian, came out of the student movement of the time, particularly the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS). When the RCP was founded in 1976, the formation of a new communist party of the US working class was being widely discussed among the most serious revolutionaries. But, although the party was organized under the banner of anti-revisionism, it was in fact a new revisionist party, taking up Maoism from an elitist petty-bourgeois stand characteristic of their approach then and since, and they cling to their Maoist ideology as a dogma. At first they pandered to backward ideas among the workers from the right, then they entered a phase of left economism, or left trade unionism, and then, in the late 1970's, abandonment of working class organizing altogether while furiously waving the red flag. (1) True to its Maoist ideas, the RCP's picture of socialism is bureaucratic state capitalism ruling over the masses in their name, and the equation of state ownership with a socialist economy.

. Today, revolutionary ferment in society, and the study and debate of revolutionary theory, have yet to make a new upsurge. Every group calling itself revolutionary is small, with anti-revisionists (Marxists in more than name only) being the smallest of the small. In these conditions the RCP is a significant force in the left-wing movement. They get their strength, partially, because of the weakness of the anti-revisionist trend. They attract activists through revolutionary posturing in the anti-war, anti-racist and other popular movements, posing as the most revolutionary force out there. Yet, their leftism is illusory, because their greatest source of strength is through alliances with the liberal bourgeoisie, and to make those alliances, they must drop their revolutionary phrase-mongering and fall back to liberal emotionalism. In other words, for all their left posturing, their petty bourgeois outlook and their alliance with the left wing of the liberal bourgeoisie drives them to refuse to wage a real struggle against the liberal and opportunist politics dominating these movements.

. One feature of the party that stands out is their adulation for Avakian. May 1st of this year the RCP introduced a newly formatted, renamed newspaper called Revolution to much fanfare. In that issue they pour on the worship of Avakian particularly thick, but examples abound elsewhere also, in other issues before and after, on the web, and in talks. RCP members refer to themselves as "comrades and students of RCP Chairman Bob Avakian", and argue that "if you want to change the world . . . you need to know Bob Avakian". They talk of the need to "cherish him and defend" him, because "a leader like this only comes along once in a great while". We are called on to read his memoirs and listen to "the whole 11-hour DVD set" of Bob Avakian speaking, and hold parties to view it with everyone we know. One article describes an immigrant working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day, who takes his one day off on New Years day to travel to the Rose Bowl parade and "tell people about Bob Avakian", and claims that in the projects in LA people now greet each other by "putting their fists to their hearts and shouting out, 'B. A. '". Someone even "begins to cry as he hears of the future envisioned by Bob Avakian -- 'People need this kind of leader to unleash their creativity'". One acolyte is quoted on their website saying "if Lenin were alive today, he'd sound a lot like Bob Avakian". (2) At demonstrations, these students of Avakian have chanted "The earth is quakin'/ Follow Bob Avakian/ The empire's shakin'/ Follow Bob Avakian!"



Defense of the cult of Bob

. As much as they might like readers to believe that this adulation arose spontaneously, it didn't. Avakian is a skilled self-promoter. He uses all sorts of demagogical techniques to show his supposedly great wisdom and depth of knowledge: name-dropping, referring to "back in the day", and tossing around "communist"-sounding phrases like "dialectical relationship" and "unity as well as opposition". Avakian tries to bolster this cultism by spinning a theoretical web around it. (3) He argues that people give more weight to the arguments put forth by "people who have established themselves within any field or institution as some kind of authority". According to him, in revolutionary politics, this is positive and should be fostered. He labors to assure us that he doesn't support tyrannical cults, "no matter whether they represent the proletariat or not", or cults in which "certain individuals stand outside of the party and the overall interests of the proletariat; that they can substitute their own individual will or whims." What he doesn't do is talk about the class basis of those tyrannies, or what will prevent the RCP brand of cultism from devolving into the tyrannical cultism of Stalin or Mao.

. His argument rests on the correct proposal that particular ideas carry a certain prestige due to their having held up to criticism and shown their correctness in practice; this assertion is uncontroversial, one relevant example being the writings of Marx and Engels. Yet, the RCP turns this on its head: both in their theoretical justifications and in their practice, rather than analyzing the difficult questions today, instead they seek to build up their prestige, and hope no one will notice the emptiness of their answers. In fact, because they are so devoid of answers, this cultism is the only basis on which it is possible to promote Avakian's work and that of other RCP "theorists".

. For example, they don't have a serious analysis of the revolutions in either Russia or China, or how and why they ended in repressive state capitalist regimes. Instead, they provide pat answers: in the Soviet Union, "when Stalin died in 1953, capitalist forces inside the Communist Party, headed by Nikita Khrushchev, staged a coup"; in China, "after Mao died in 1976, rightist forces, led by Deng Xiaoping from behind the scenes, staged a coup . . .". (4) The fact that both these countries were already repressive regimes with little or no mass participation in political life at the time of these "coups" is a fact to be apologized away, as "mistakes" Stalin made, or outright denied, as in their enthusiasm for the Chinese Cultural Revolution. By contrast Marx and Engels studied the revolutions of their time deeply, and communists today need to do serious study of the revolutions since. They also studied capitalism as it existed in their day. While the basic principles they discovered about capitalism then still apply today, capitalism has developed since then. Lenin furthered their study, but capitalism has developed since Lenin's time too. Communists need to draw lessons from these developments to effectively fight the struggles of today, and the RCP has no answers here either. They also don't have any serious ideas about how to develop a proletarian movement independent of the Democrats and their allies. Instead, their answer is fear-mongering and cultism, and assertions of how really, really revolutionary they are. Marxism can't be satisfied with providing simple answers. It has to continually test and retest its basic methods and standpoint by applying them to new questions, and breaking new ground.

. In place of this, on the one hand the RCP tries to promote a sense of panic, with accounts that "history is full of examples of people . . . passively hoping to wait it out, only to get swallowed up by a horror beyond what they ever imagined" and that if "things are left in the hands of those in power, we could be living in a world where old traditional shackles meet new technology. . . . This horrible vision would be a society where modern-day imperialism would be run by religious fanatics. Your worst nightmare meets your worst nightmare" [their emphasis]. (5)

. On the other hand, they seek to promote a sense of security, that all of the questions are being studied and answered by a wise and thoughtful Avakian. The above quote continues: "But today, at the very moment we are haunted by a new 'Dark Ages' mentality, the communist project is going through a Renaissance, as Bob Avakian has reimagined the process of socialist revolution. We have a fighting chance. . . ." Another example is from an interview, posted to several indymedia web sites, of Sunsara Taylor, a frequent contributor to the RCP newspaper:

"Because I have followed and studied Chairman Avakian I do have answers and something to say to people! To know that there is somebody that we can have so much confidence in let me tell you, things can get really crazy in the middle of such an intense struggle. . . . It's easy to stress out in the middle of all this, but it's important to step back for a minute and see that our Chairman is leading us to solve all these problems. He's somebody who is voluntarily and very eagerly saying that he will give his life to the people and there's a lot riding on what he does. But he doesn't stop and complain. He solves the problems and he leads people to solve the problems. I try to emulate that and it makes a big difference". (6)
. The message is clear. RCP members don't need to think, don't need to ask questions, don't need to "stress out" about anything, because Avakian is going to answer everything which needs to be answered.

. In the "Individual Leaders . . ." article and elsewhere, in place of really grappling with difficult questions, he repeatedly uses pseudo-dialectics to make it sound like he is doing so. In this technique of argumentation, he makes two contradictory statements and calls it "a dialectic", but makes no effort to talk about how they relate to each other. Then he simply picks whichever side of the so-called-dialectic suits his needs, and ignores the other. One critic on the web described this as waving the "dialectical magic wand".

. For example, he brings up the "dialectical relation" between cultism and "initiative and creative critical thinking among party members and the masses following the party", but says nothing more about the question. Cultism stifles intellectual initiative among the masses, but Avakian finds it more convenient for his argument to say "dialectical relation", and then prattle on about "the positive and necessary aspect" of cultism. In the same article, he states that "on the other hand . . . truth . . . in the beginning is always in the hands of the minority of people" and that "Mao makes the statement that people should follow whoever has the truth in their hands." He raises this point a couple of ways, and then again simply returns to his discussion of the supposed positive nature of cults. Again, he doesn't discuss the relationship between the two ideas.

. These and several other examples in that article alone, clearly show that his aim is not to shed light on the question, but to obscure the emptiness of his arguments, to assure his readers that he is really thinking about things deeply, to sound "communist" and thoughtful, and to make what are often very simple-minded, empty and wrong arguments seem deeper and richer and more all-sided. Real dialectical materialism is a tool to understand and clarify the laws by which change occurs. Simply stating two contradictory things and saying they have a "dialectical relation", and then choosing one (the "unity" between cultism and mass initiative) and ignoring the other (the "opposition" between them), clarifies nothing except the speaker's opportunism, and actually serves to obscure reality. (7)



Roots of the cult of Bob

. The issue is not simply that all this adulation of Avakian is unattractive, or that his wind-baggery deserves to be held up to ridicule. The issue is that cultism is really antithetical to the entire aim of communism. A communist party, a real one, not the mockery of one handed down to us by the legacy of revisionism over the last 75-80 years, is a collective endeavor to tear down the elitism and privilege which arise from class society, by tearing down class rule. Trying to do so by making a virtue of elitism and privilege is not the way to do it. A real communist party must be founded on the equality of its members: equality of rights within the party, and equality of responsibilities to the class. A working class party is a collective endeavor in which everyone has the right to be heard out. After a full hearing of a question, once decision is made, all have the responsibility to carry out the decisions of the party, although they may always raise the question again later if they still disagree with it. Cultism, in which one "comrade" is held up for adulation while others describe themselves as his "students", cuts against this spirit.

. Their lack of proletarian party spirit, the elitism which comes with their cultism, the weakness of their arguments, all reveal their class orientation. Their practice shows it too: they do not organize among the workers. Doing so is difficult today, given the current lack of ferment in society, and few groups do much of it. But the RCP has given up on the workers entirely, and for the most part dropped even mention of the working class in their writings. In their Draft Programme (one of the few places they do mention the proletariat), they talk of fighting against a "reactionary polarization" created by the bourgeoisie, and they say that "the proletariat, through the leadership of its party, seeks to bring about a 'favorable repolarization', by waging a 'fight for the middle'." The phrase 'fight for the middle" is a euphemism; what it really means is ignoring the workers, and focusing on other segments of society, the petty-bourgeoisie and left-liberal Democrats.

. They go further, and argue that this "fight for the middle" is really the hardest and most revolutionary work: "if the proletariat writes off potential allies, if it shrinks from waging that 'fight for the middle', as difficult as it is, then it will fall short in making revolution". They argue that for its part, the bourgeoisie is also fighting "to enlist the support of the middle strata . . . seeking to convince them [the proletariat] they will have no allies when they fight back". This entire discussion sounds as if a) they believe that the proletariat is already completely behind them and does not need to be organized, or b) their declaration that they are the party which is leading the proletariat is sufficient, and it isn't necessary to take any action to actually lead the actual workers, or c) that by waging this fight for the middle, the RCP will convince the workers that they do have allies (in the kinder gentler imperialists, the liberal Democrats, mind you), and this will give them courage to organize themselves. (8)

. A practical example of their abandonment of working class politics for left-liberalism is their current call to "Drive out the Bush Regime" quoted above. It reads in part "But silence and paralysis are NOT acceptable. That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn -- or be forced -- to accept. There is no escaping it the whole disastrous course of this Bush regime must be STOPPED. And we must take the responsibility to do it." While it is always good to fight against Bush, the arch-imperialist, this sort of guilt-tripping emotionalism is the stock-in-trade of the left-liberals, and it reflects the RCP's attitude toward the masses as backward and bought out, and as hopeless as a revolutionary force. This event is called for November 2nd, a Wednesday, the anniversary of Bush's reelection. It talks as though tens of thousands simply HAVE TO walk out of work and classes, or disaster will ensue. Meanwhile, even though it makes a reference to there being "no savior from the Democratic Party", it makes no mention of the imperialist nature of that party, and no mention of the class which both Bush and the Democrats serve, the bourgeoisie.

. While it is possible to find common ground in certain struggles and at certain stages during the struggle, between the working class and sections of the petty-bourgeoisie, the RCP approach -- abandonment of working class politics and organizing primarily among the petty-bourgeoisie, while still trying to pose as Marxist -- requires them to extract any class analysis from their writings, leaving little but empty emotional and moral appeals and sophistry, and because they are empty, the only way left to promote themselves is by cultist appeals.

. So they have adopted this cultism for a number of reasons. In order to hide the tame liberal reformist politics they&#39;re hawking, to hide their real class allegiances, and to try to sound so very revolutionary, they talk of Avakian as "a pathbreaking Marxist thinker" who has a "vision", and who has "reimagined the process of socialist revolution", one who "we can have so much confidence in", and therefore don&#39;t need to "stress out" about the difficult problems of building a proletarian movement. Instead of organizing among the workers, their focus is on making themselves appealing to left liberals and petty-bourgeois radicals, and on drawing their strength from the left Democrats, summed up under their slogan "Unite all who can be united". <>

Martin Blank
10th April 2006, 22:15
Source? Link?

Miles

barista.marxista
10th April 2006, 23:34
It&#39;s good that you&#39;re contemplating this critique of the RCP. And let me help you out from my experience: every Leninist party (regardless of whether they call themselves Maoists, or Trotskyists, or Castroists) operates basically the same. I learned this by working with many of them over a period of several years. If you want a further critique of the RCP, that traces their faults to their systematic reasons (as every Marxist needs to look at the system, and not just its effects), then I recommend Lenny Flank Jr.&#39;s Non-Leninist Marxism (http://www.phillyrmc.net/nonlenin.html). Section six critiques the RCP, and how its faults stem from Leninism as a philosophy.

Severian
10th April 2006, 23:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 02:52 PM
(from the article)
(8) In their Draft Programme (one of the few places they do mention the proletariat), they talk of fighting against a "reactionary polarization" created by the bourgeoisie, and they say that "the proletariat, through the leadership of its party, seeks to bring about a &#39;favorable repolarization&#39;, by waging a &#39;fight for the middle&#39;.
.....
This entire discussion sounds as if a) they believe that the proletariat is already completely behind them and does not need to be organized, or b) their declaration that they are the party which is leading the proletariat is sufficient, and it isn&#39;t necessary to take any action to actually lead the actual workers, or c) that by waging this fight for the middle, the RCP will convince the workers that they do have allies (in the kinder gentler imperialists, the liberal Democrats, mind you), and this will give them courage to organize themselves.
It&#39;s (b). Like many Maoists, when the RCP says "the proletariat" they mean themselves; because the RCP allegedly has the correct line it automatically represents the workers. Actual workers are usually invisible to the RCP. On those rare occasions they appear, the RCP&#39;s attitude is contempt.

That kind of attitude is increasingly common in the rest of "the left", too. (http://www.themilitant.com/2004/6843/684302.html)

The RCP has never really been part of the working-class movement; it comes out of the thoroughly middle-class SDS. It briefly flirted with activity in the labor movement, accompanied by disastrous tactical blunders and opposition to school desegregation in Boston. They then proceeded to write workers off as hopelessly reactionary, a bunch of Archie Bunkers. But the RCP never attempted to work in industry and the labor movement without accomodating to the reactionary attitudes of some workers.

A fairly solid criticism by a former RCP member on these questions. (http://www.massline.info/rcp/expel/index.htm)


. So they have adopted this cultism for a number of reasons. In order to hide the tame liberal reformist politics they&#39;re hawking, to hide their real class allegiances, and to try to sound so very revolutionary, they talk of Avakian as "a pathbreaking Marxist thinker" who has a "vision", and who has "reimagined the process of socialist revolution",e all who can be united". <>

Well, yes. Not only their cultism, but their ultraleft rhetoric and tactics generally, exist to cover the reality of petty-bourgeois reformism or semi-reformism. That&#39;s true of more than the RCP.

But of course there&#39;s nothing "Leninist" about such politics - or about personality cultism - contrary to what the RCP claims about itself, or what Barista says in this thread. Lenin never had the role in the Bolshevik Party than Avakian has in the RCP. And certainly the Bolshevik Party in Lenin&#39;s time never practiced anything like the RCP&#39;s politics&#33;

Really, the cult of Avakian is the least of the problems with the RCP, a symptom of deeper and older problems. It doesn&#39;t deserve such prominent billing as it gets in this article.

Speaking of which, where is it from and who is it by?


(Barista)I recommend Lenny Flank Jr.&#39;s Non-Leninist Marxism. Section six critiques the RCP, and how its faults stem from Leninism as a philosophy.

No, it just states without support that the RCP and PL represent present-day Leninism. Uses them almost as "straw men" - Flank quotes them because their positions are the most easily knocked down, and serve to taint Lenin by association.

barista.marxista
11th April 2006, 00:04
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 05:45 PM
No, it just states without support that the RCP and PL represent present-day Leninism. Uses them almost as "straw men" - Flank quotes them because their positions are the most easily knocked down, and serve to taint Lenin by association.

Yes, and the Socialist Workers Party is a shining beacon of proletarian resistance, completely different than any other party that falsely proclaims itself as "Leninist" these days. :rolleyes:

black magick hustla
11th April 2006, 00:30
I have listened to some of Avakian&#39;s speeches and some of them are really good. He addresses the flaws of capitalism and christianity very lucidly, and he is very funny&#33;

However when he starts to talk about the revolution and post-revolution society, he stinks to maoism.

hello comrade marcel (you are reading this thread right now) did you know that maoism sucks it is pretty awful

bye comrade marcel

Jimmie Higgins
11th April 2006, 01:09
Originally posted by barista.marxista+Apr 10 2006, 11:13 PM--> (barista.marxista @ Apr 10 2006, 11:13 PM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 05:45 PM
No, it just states without support that the RCP and PL represent present-day Leninism. Uses them almost as "straw men" - Flank quotes them because their positions are the most easily knocked down, and serve to taint Lenin by association.

Yes, and the Socialist Workers Party is a shining beacon of proletarian resistance, completely different than any other party that falsely proclaims itself as "Leninist" these days. :rolleyes: [/b]
Yes, I&#39;m sure you can find fault with any present-day organization - aside from your own of course. :lol:

Let&#39;s grow up here and talk about the politics and different approaches.

I am not a member of either the RCP or the SWP, but to paint both organizations with the same brush is insane... unless there wasa time when the SWP supported Stalin and was Maoist and against Homosexuals and followed Bob Avakian.

So basically, the only similarity is that both groups believe a party is necissary for the working class to take power. You think that workers should form revolutionary unions... how is this to happen? And please explain your position rather than just quote articles from your leaders.

Personally, I think parties will be part of the class struggle. Historically, the capitalist class has formed parties and organizations like think-tanks to help them rule more effectively and find the best way for them to maintain their rule. You might say that at the time of the American Civil War, the Republicans were the Vangaurd of the industrial side of American capitalism... the republicans didn&#39;t end up taking power for their own party (though Lincoln took a great deal of power for the governent) over the rest of the class... the power they did take was allowed the capitalists to gain in power overall and created the conditions for the rail road and steal barrons of the post-war era.

So I think workers will develop organizations and parties to develop ideas and tactics to help our forces take power and then rule as a class. The real question is not are groups secretly plotting to create a Stalinist nightmare - (aside from real stalinists) and if not, then will their politics and tactics help workers win power forthemselves and then rule socierty?

In the case of the RCP or other organizations which ask members simply to put their trust in a Leader who will deliver the promised land to them - this will not help the working class develop the ability and politics necissary to rule society - it will only teach them how to follow a leader.

barista.marxista
11th April 2006, 01:58
Originally posted by Gravedigger+Apr 10 2006, 07:18 PM--> (Gravedigger &#064; Apr 10 2006, 07:18 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 11:13 PM

[email protected] 10 2006, 05:45 PM
No, it just states without support that the RCP and PL represent present-day Leninism. Uses them almost as "straw men" - Flank quotes them because their positions are the most easily knocked down, and serve to taint Lenin by association.

Yes, and the Socialist Workers Party is a shining beacon of proletarian resistance, completely different than any other party that falsely proclaims itself as "Leninist" these days. :rolleyes:
Yes, I&#39;m sure you can find fault with any present-day organization - aside from your own of course. :lol:

Let&#39;s grow up here and talk about the politics and different approaches.

I am not a member of either the RCP or the SWP, but to paint both organizations with the same brush is insane... unless there wasa time when the SWP supported Stalin and was Maoist and against Homosexuals and followed Bob Avakian.

So basically, the only similarity is that both groups believe a party is necissary for the working class to take power. You think that workers should form revolutionary unions... how is this to happen? And please explain your position rather than just quote articles from your leaders.

Personally, I think parties will be part of the class struggle. Historically, the capitalist class has formed parties and organizations like think-tanks to help them rule more effectively and find the best way for them to maintain their rule. You might say that at the time of the American Civil War, the Republicans were the Vangaurd of the industrial side of American capitalism... the republicans didn&#39;t end up taking power for their own party (though Lincoln took a great deal of power for the governent) over the rest of the class... the power they did take was allowed the capitalists to gain in power overall and created the conditions for the rail road and steal barrons of the post-war era.

So I think workers will develop organizations and parties to develop ideas and tactics to help our forces take power and then rule as a class. The real question is not are groups secretly plotting to create a Stalinist nightmare - (aside from real stalinists) and if not, then will their politics and tactics help workers win power forthemselves and then rule socierty?

In the case of the RCP or other organizations which ask members simply to put their trust in a Leader who will deliver the promised land to them - this will not help the working class develop the ability and politics necissary to rule society - it will only teach them how to follow a leader.[/b]
Actually, no. My organization has many faults, as we are very new, and very small. And I respect many organizations out there (for example, NEFAC, RAAN, IWW, CLASH, ABC, WSM, and more) for what they are capable of doing. So you&#39;re basing that statement on speculation.

It&#39;s quite easy to paint all Leninist groups with the same brush, because organizationally they are so. They are anti-proletarian, based on hierarchal organization where all decision is in the hands of a few people, and the normal members have little say. They are dogmatic in their line, making splits inevitable should any differences arise. They are also ignorant of historical materialism -- history has proven Leninism incapable of anything but pushing nations into a stage of industrialized capitalism; it essentially serves as a bourgeois revolution, because that&#39;s what Leninism is -- petty-bourgeois ideology. Trots are the same as Maoists, because they are organized the same, follow the same analysis of capitalism (based on one propagandist from 100 years ago&#33;), and do the same work. They just disagree on who messed up with socialism -- liberalism in itself, as if one person can usurp an entire nation&#33; The Flank book discusses this in much more detailed, so I won&#39;t continue with an argument well documented elsewhere.

So how is the working-class to organize? Autonomously, of their own accord, and without faith in "Parties" and "Unions" that have been subsumed into the capitalist social-factory and commodity-form system. Through organized resistance of work, and the subsequent self-valorization through collective action, working-class consciousness is formed. We saw it in Italy in the 1970s, Mexico with the Zapatista uprising, and just recently, with the workers in France who formed general assemblies and occupied the country through their own initiative.

If you&#39;re actually interested in real working-class action, and not petty-bourgeois hierarchies and subservience, I&#39;d recommend reading some Toni Negri and Harry Cleaver for start. An excellent introduction is this interview with Harry Cleaver from 1993 (http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/InterviewwithHarryCleaver.html).

rebelworker
11th April 2006, 02:46
Heres a good critique from an older Black revolutionary in Seattle.

Critique of RCP & White Vanguard (http://www.illegalvoices.org/knowledge/general_articles/mythology_of_the_white-led_vanguard.html)

Jimmie Higgins
11th April 2006, 04:32
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 01:07 AM
So how is the working-class to organize? Autonomously, of their own accord, and without faith in "Parties" and "Unions" that have been subsumed into the capitalist social-factory and commodity-form system. Through organized resistance of work, and the subsequent self-valorization through collective action, working-class consciousness is formed. We saw it in Italy in the 1970s, Mexico with the Zapatista uprising, and just recently, with the workers in France who formed general assemblies and occupied the country through their own initiative.

If you&#39;re actually interested in real working-class action, and not petty-bourgeois hierarchies and subservience, I&#39;d recommend reading some Toni Negri and Harry Cleaver for start. An excellent introduction is this interview with Harry Cleaver from 1993 (http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/InterviewwithHarryCleaver.html).
Oh man, calling people with different politics, pettit-bourgeois; how very RCP of you&#33; :lol:

I wasn&#39;t making any arguments against working class action - it happens all the time. I think that when the working class takes power, no single party can take that away. If the class has power, then no political party can come in and change a few laws and take it away just as social-deocrats have found that putting radicals in charge of the political machinary of a capitalist state does not change the nature of power in a capitalist state.

If a party&#39;s politics and tactics are designed to put their party in control of production and therefore the state, then you have a valid criticism... this is my criticism of some groups such as the RCP:


True to its Maoist ideas, the RCP&#39;s picture of socialism is bureaucratic state capitalism ruling over the masses in their name, and the equation of state ownership with a socialist economy.

But, again, if a party is comitted to worker&#39;s power and worker control of production and therefore the state, then that party can potentially be something that helps accomplish this. The Ruling class is very organized and just because they have parties and think tanks and things like that dosn&#39;t mean they end up opressing their class... thoes structures are designed to make their rule more effective and strong and lasting: this is what our side needs&#33; You call others anti-materialist and yet your argument is that an idea (lenninism) creates the material reality and that reality is the same in all situations and at all times&#33; Talk about anti-materialism&#33;

I also want to know does anyone else find it funny that being "interested in real working-class action, and not petty-bourgeois hierarchies and subservience" means reading what some authority has to tell me about something? Well, he did wright a book, so I guess he must know what&#39;s better for the struggle and I should do what he says. 100 year old propagandists are authoritarian, but 10 year old ones are "real working-class action". :lol:

barista.marxista
11th April 2006, 04:45
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 10:41 PM
Oh man, calling people with different politics, pettit-bourgeois; how very RCP of you&#33; :lol:
Um, no, actually, Lenin and the majority of the Bolshevik Party were petty-bourgeoisie, not proletarian. This caused the anti-proletarian nature inherent in Leninism (whether Trotskyism or Maoism). That&#39;s why I called Leninism a petty-bourgeois ideology. Yeah.

barista.marxista
11th April 2006, 05:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 10:41 PM
I also want to know does anyone else find it funny that being "interested in real working-class action, and not petty-bourgeois hierarchies and subservience" means reading what some authority has to tell me about something? Well, he did wright a book, so I guess he must know what&#39;s better for the struggle and I should do what he says. 100 year old propagandists are authoritarian, but 10 year old ones are "real working-class action". :lol:

First of all, you have a seriously poor understanding of dialectical materialism if you dismiss Leninism as an idea because, apparently, ideas don&#39;t create reality. Might I suggest reading Theses on Feuerbach so you might understand why materialism is wrong? And Leninism wasn&#39;t only in one country: it was in a dozen. And it failed each and every time. Except to create advanced capitalist states, equipped with their own bourgeoisie&#33; That&#39;s historical materialism, baby.

As for this: I can point you to a dozen instances of autonomist Marxist thought being applied deliberately and/or unconsciously, to varying success. And the difference is that these instances were either repressed and disposed of by outside sources (whether capitalist or Leninist) -- they had not come to their full power and capability. Meanwhile, Leninism did. In fact, in case you didn&#39;t know, Bolshevism rose in pretty much half the world, and dominated for about 75 years. The only other superpower in history was a Leninist state. And do you know what happened? Yeah.

Wanted Man
11th April 2006, 08:39
The entire critique of the RCP from massline.info is a good read:

http://www.massline.info/rcp/

redstar2000
11th April 2006, 17:16
But, although the party was organized under the banner of anti-revisionism, it was in fact a new revisionist party, taking up Maoism from an elitist petty-bourgeois stand characteristic of their approach then and since, and they cling to their Maoist ideology as a dogma.

Makes me wonder who wrote this article.

As a rule, it is Maoists who "pound away" on the theme of modern "revisionism"...a word/concept rarely used by Trotskyists to apply to our era.

But this suggests a non-Maoist source...and one wonders who it could be.

An actual living Stalinist, perhaps? Or maybe the last living disciple of Enver Hoxha?

After all, you wouldn&#39;t expect a Maoist to reproach the RCP for "clinging to Maoism"...even if "dogmatically".

Right? :lol:


True to its Maoist ideas, the RCP&#39;s picture of socialism is bureaucratic state capitalism ruling over the masses in their name, and the equation of state ownership with a socialist economy.

Ok, definitely not a Maoist source...and maybe not even Leninist. :)


They get their strength, partially, because of the weakness of the anti-revisionist trend.

But that sounds Leninist.


They attract activists through revolutionary posturing in the anti-war, anti-racist and other popular movements, posing as the most revolutionary force out there. Yet, their leftism is illusory, because their greatest source of strength is through alliances with the liberal bourgeoisie, and to make those alliances, they must drop their revolutionary phrase-mongering and fall back to liberal emotionalism. In other words, for all their left posturing, their petty bourgeois outlook and their alliance with the left wing of the liberal bourgeoisie drives them to refuse to wage a real struggle against the liberal and opportunist politics dominating these movements.

This is somewhat speculative...though I wouldn&#39;t dispute that there are signs "pointing" in that direction.

Whenever someone criticizes "revolutionary posturing", always ask yourself this: is that worse than open reformism?.

It&#39;s always seemed to me that "revolutionary posturing" is much to be preferred to what we usually see -- enthusiastic reformist ass-kissing.


One feature of the party that stands out is their adulation for Avakian.

The "good personality cult" is at the core of Maoism...you have to accept that to be any kind of Maoist at all.


One critic on the web described this as waving the "dialectical magic wand".

Where&#39;s my footnote? :lol:


But the RCP has given up on the workers entirely, and for the most part dropped even mention of the working class in their writings.

Quite true. In fact, there was actually a thread on the RCP message board (Another World Is Possible) where even the concept of proletarian revolution was disputed in favor of some kind of amorphous "people&#39;s revolution".

Very bizarre. :blink:

Overall, it does seem to me that the RCP -- perhaps with some local exceptions -- is "drifting" rightwards. Even if it&#39;s not yet quite as bad as this article asserts...it&#39;s probably going to get that bad and worse.

When Avakian and "his generation" finally retire, there might be some hope from the younger members for a "left turn".

But don&#39;t bet the rent money on it. :(

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Severian
11th April 2006, 20:28
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 10:25 AM
Whenever someone criticizes "revolutionary posturing", always ask yourself this: is that worse than open reformism?.
Yes, it is.

One, an undisguised evil is preferable to a disguised evil. Easier to recognize and oppose.

Two, ultaleft-disguised reformism combines the worst of both worlds.

As reformists, they rope people into subordinating workers&#39; struggles to the Democrats or other sections of the employing class. Their ultraleft disguise helps them do this.

And at the same time, their ultraleft rhetoric and tactics create openings for increased repression by the bosses&#39; state.


It&#39;s always seemed to me that "revolutionary posturing" is much to be preferred to what we usually see -- enthusiastic reformist ass-kissing.

Words you live by, huh?

Jimmie Higgins
11th April 2006, 21:09
Originally posted by barista.marxista+Apr 11 2006, 03:54 AM--> (barista.marxista @ Apr 11 2006, 03:54 AM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 10:41 PM
Oh man, calling people with different politics, pettit-bourgeois; how very RCP of you&#33; :lol:
Um, no, actually, Lenin and the majority of the Bolshevik Party were petty-bourgeoisie, not proletarian. This caused the anti-proletarian nature inherent in Leninism (whether Trotskyism or Maoism). That&#39;s why I called Leninism a petty-bourgeois ideology. Yeah. [/b]
Um, well, Stalin was working class... so his ideas must have been more "pro-proletarian" :rolleyes: yeah.

Class-baiting dosn&#39;t get the movement anywhere - especially considering that Marx was an intulectual and Engles was part of the owning class. In fact it is useually wealthy RCP members who are the most ferocious class-baiters since they have to somehow convince workers that the RCP is "down" since their politics don&#39;t really relate that much to working people.

Lots of workers don&#39;t have very high leveles of class consiousness and most cops come from a working class background and probably believe they are helping their communities, even though they are part of a structure that is repressive to workers in the larger view.

Let&#39;s get serious here, stop trying to proove how lefter-than-thou you are and let&#39;s talk about what will bring the movement forward. You seem to be saying that parties are authoritarian... well so is a democratic vote. Do you believe that consensus is better? Explain what you mean, don&#39;t just post some links to some author who I am supposed to believe because he&#39;s written a book and therefore must be correct.:rolleyes:

Enragé
11th April 2006, 21:43
somebody shoot this Bob fellow in the knee caps

IRA-style

edit:

nah

why waste the bullets

through him off a fucking bridge or sumthin

redstar2000
12th April 2006, 01:21
Originally posted by Severian
As reformists, they rope people into subordinating workers&#39; struggles to the Democrats or other sections of the employing class. Their ultraleft disguise helps them do this.

And at the same time, their ultraleft rhetoric and tactics create openings for increased repression by the bosses&#39; state.

"Dialectical reasoning" at "work". :lol:

You see, the people who talk about revolution "don&#39;t really mean it" while the people who talk about reformism are actually "winning people to see the need for revolution". :blink:

Or as Comrade Stalin put it: left in form; right in content. :lol:

Trotskyists presumably claim that they are right in form but left in content.

Somehow, I find that really hard to believe. :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Martin Blank
12th April 2006, 01:42
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 11:25 AM
Makes me wonder who wrote this article.
I had to look at the article again. When I did, I figured out who it was who wrote this. This is from the Communist Voice Organization, the main remnant of the defunct Marxist-Leninist Party. The URL to this article is:

http://home.flash.net/~comvoice/36cCult.html

The CVO is both anti-Stalinist and anti-Trotskyist, and styling themselves as paleo-Leninists. They&#39;re decent people, though. I&#39;ve had some interesting conversations with CVO members in the past.

Miles

barista.marxista
12th April 2006, 03:06
Originally posted by Gravedigger+Apr 11 2006, 03:18 PM--> (Gravedigger &#064; Apr 11 2006, 03:18 PM)
Originally posted by barista.marxista+Apr 11 2006, 03:54 AM--> (barista.marxista &#064; Apr 11 2006, 03:54 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 10:41 PM
Oh man, calling people with different politics, pettit-bourgeois; how very RCP of you&#33; :lol:
Um, no, actually, Lenin and the majority of the Bolshevik Party were petty-bourgeoisie, not proletarian. This caused the anti-proletarian nature inherent in Leninism (whether Trotskyism or Maoism). That&#39;s why I called Leninism a petty-bourgeois ideology. Yeah. [/b]
Um, well, Stalin was working class... so his ideas must have been more "pro-proletarian" :rolleyes: yeah.

Class-baiting dosn&#39;t get the movement anywhere - especially considering that Marx was an intulectual and Engles was part of the owning class. In fact it is useually wealthy RCP members who are the most ferocious class-baiters since they have to somehow convince workers that the RCP is "down" since their politics don&#39;t really relate that much to working people.

Lots of workers don&#39;t have very high leveles of class consiousness and most cops come from a working class background and probably believe they are helping their communities, even though they are part of a structure that is repressive to workers in the larger view.

Let&#39;s get serious here, stop trying to proove how lefter-than-thou you are and let&#39;s talk about what will bring the movement forward. You seem to be saying that parties are authoritarian... well so is a democratic vote. Do you believe that consensus is better? Explain what you mean, don&#39;t just post some links to some author who I am supposed to believe because he&#39;s written a book and therefore must be correct.:rolleyes:[/b]
Wow, you&#39;re really great at bullshitting. Let&#39;s look at the three techniques you used in this post to try to throw away everything I&#39;ve said:

1. You&#39;ve put words in my mouth, and then lead them to a conclusion for me.

I&#39;ve never said that anyone is more working-class or more bourgeoisie as an insult. As Marxists, we accept univeralized class interests -- that is, how each class approaches accumulating their material subsistence. These approaches have obviously sociopolitical implications -- bourgeois democracy, for example, is the most versatile form of bourgeois rule; socialism is the preferred form of proletarian rule. Now, we can see that certain methodologies and ideologies take either one class perspective or the other. This is usually the result of the class position of the person espousing the idea (note, I said usually). Their class position does not discredit their ideas -- their ideas speak for themselves, but are shaped by their class position.

Now, yes, Marx and Engels were intelligentsia. Engels was outright bourgeois -- something I think is obviously reflected in his latter, post-Marx works, namely Dialectics of Nature. I think these works try to apply a social science as a universalized philosophy, something the Second International, and later the Bolsheviks, took to heart. But Marx was not as affected. Yes, he held some racisms, and possibly sexism -- that can be expected of a 19th century German. But Marxism is firmly rooted in the working class. Let&#39;s compare these two significant quotes:

("Marx")But the working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready-made state machinery, and wield it for its own purposes. The centralized state power, with its ubiquitous organs of standing army, police, bureaucracy, clergy, and judicature — organs wrought after the plan of a systematic and hierarchic division of labor — originates from the days of absolute monarchy, serving nascent middle class society as a mighty weapon in its struggle against feudalism.
-- The Civil War in France[/b][/quote]

That the working-class cannot simply control the state implies that they must create their own form of participative class-rule. This is a root in Marx&#39;s actual words for the autonomist idea of self-valorisation -- through the refusal of the imposition of the commodity-form, new organization methods are developed that will be carried through the revolution. This is significant, when held in comparison to this quote:

("Lenin")But the dictatorship of the proletariat cannot be exercised through an organisation embracing the whole of that class, because in all capitalist countries (and not only over here, in one of the most backward) the proletariat is still so divided, so degraded, and so corrupted in parts (by imperialism in some countries) that an organisation taking in the whole proletariat cannot directly exercise proletarian dictatorship. It can be exercised only by a vanguard.
The Trade Unions, The Present Situation And Trotsky&#39;s Mistakes, December 30, 1920[/b][/quote]

Do you see the obvious difference here? There is an inherently anti-proletarian nature in Leninism, which decries the mobilisation of the workers, and instead focuses on a small group of people (and, again, here it is significant that the majority of Bolshevik "professional revolutionaries" were petty-bourgeois and intelligentsia) making decisions from the masses. Sound like anything else? Oh, yeah: capitalism.

I&#39;m not class-baiting. I couldn&#39;t care less if you&#39;re petty-bourgeois or lumpenproletarian. If you&#39;re dedicated to serious organization, emphasizing the autonomous ability of working-class organization, then I&#39;m with you. But I do have a problem with the idea that the workers "cannot directly exercise proletarian dictatorship". This is the anti-proletarian nature of Leninism.

2. You&#39;re belittling my argument by making assumptions as to what points I&#39;m driving, instead of directly responding to what I write.

Particularly, I mean this:


"Gravedigger"@
Let&#39;s get serious here, stop trying to proove how lefter-than-thou you are and let&#39;s talk about what will bring the movement forward.

And this:


"Gravedigger"
You seem to be saying that parties are authoritarian...

I needn&#39;t address the first. It&#39;s childish pandering, and you know it. To address the second: yes, I&#39;m saying that parties are authoritarian. But you&#39;re implying that&#39;s my objection to them, as opposed to recognizing what I&#39;m actually written. It&#39;s not that parties are authoritarian -- it&#39;s that they&#39;re anti-proletarian. They are: one, a method of organization developed to organize for and within the capitalist bourgeois democracy; and two, have been subsumed into the social factory (as have labour unions) to the degree when they are no longer revolutionary but can be utilized by the bourgeoisie for the further oppression and exploitation of the workers. This is not a moral objection, it&#39;s a material analysis.

3. You&#39;re disregarding what I&#39;ve previously typed, asking me to explain what I already have, and appear to be requesting explanations far beyond that which are appropriate for forums.

I gave an overview of what autonomist Marxism is. And I&#39;ve defined it again and again through my posts. You&#39;ve belittled what I&#39;ve said into claimed I just class-bait and am morally opposed to authority. You have in no way addressed how I explained autonomous organization, or refuted how it is more proletarian than Leninism and parties. Furthermore: I shouldn&#39;t refer you to books? When on these boards, do you ask people to explain Kapital, but not refer you to the work for a detailed account? How many people here have written out for you the intricacies of the dialectical relationship between labour-value and surplus-value, of commodity form imposition, et cetera. Plus: maybe instead of spending a ridiculous amount of type posting long, meaningless attacks, we should be actively organizing something? It&#39;s probably less effort that pandering to your childish and degrading "refutations" of what I&#39;ve asserted, and it&#39;s a hell of a lot more productive.

And with that, I finish in this thread.

Rawthentic
12th April 2006, 05:31
Originally posted by redstar2000+Apr 11 2006, 04:30 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Apr 11 2006, 04:30 PM)
Severian
As reformists, they rope people into subordinating workers&#39; struggles to the Democrats or other sections of the employing class. Their ultraleft disguise helps them do this.

And at the same time, their ultraleft rhetoric and tactics create openings for increased repression by the bosses&#39; state.

"Dialectical reasoning" at "work". :lol:

You see, the people who talk about revolution "don&#39;t really mean it" while the people who talk about reformism are actually "winning people to see the need for revolution". :blink:

Or as Comrade Stalin put it: left in form; right in content. :lol:

Trotskyists presumably claim that they are right in form but left in content.

Somehow, I find that really hard to believe. :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif [/b]
Do you consider Stalin a "comrade"? Im not affected by the bourgeois concept or anything, but I wouldnt define Stalin as a comrade. He was a mass murderer, a totalitarian, and ultimately counterrevolutionary. If you would explain that please.

Amusing Scrotum
12th April 2006, 07:07
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 04:25 PM

One critic on the web described this as waving the "dialectical magic wand".

Where&#39;s my footnote? :lol:

I just did a google search for the phrase "dialectical magic wand", and it turns out it probably is you they quoted....

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&as_qd...c+wand%22&meta= (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=+%22dialectical+magic+wand%22&meta=)

Perhaps you should start charging &#036;1 a citation? :lol:
______

As for the above article, it was alright I suppose. Personally I prefer the article rebelworker linked....

Mythology of the White-Led "Vanguard": A Critical Look at the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA (http://www.illegalvoices.org/knowledge/general_articles/mythology_of_the_white-led_vanguard.html)

It&#39;s got a bit more of a bite, if you know what I mean....and it&#39;s definitely the more informative of the two articles.

Severian
12th April 2006, 08:14
That "Mythology of the White-Led Vanguard" piece is thoroughly unpricipled and a poor substitute for a serious criticism of the real political problems with the RCP. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=35240)

redstar2000
12th April 2006, 14:02
Originally posted by hastalavictoria
Do you consider Stalin a "comrade"?

Always look for the emoticon; :lol: generally indicates sarcastic laughter. :)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Guerrilla22
13th April 2006, 17:16
The only good splinter group from the SDS was the Weathermen, they actually carried out operations, what has Avakian done, aside from printing up newspapers and releasing a DVD box set?

Jimmie Higgins
15th April 2006, 05:14
Personally, I&#39;d take Avakian over the Weathermen Underground. At least Avakian pretends to try and oraganize and agitate workers. The WU were more romanticzers than revolutionaries.