Stop the war

[Enragé]

Stop the war in Iran before it starts! (http://www.geenoorlogtegeniran.nl/mambo/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1&lang=en)

Sign the petition comrades!

[piet11111]

pointless the netherlands cant stop bush.
hell we could not even prevent our soldiers going to uruzgan (spelling?)

[MeTaLhEaD]

ha! the United Nations didnt stop him last time..
a petition would do better

[violencia.Proletariat]

Meh, a petition? What would be EFFECTIVE, is the mass mobilization of people such as with the recent immigration protests. If we can put that amount of people out of the workplace and on the streets such as the French have done, that can really change things.

[drain.you]

Sit infront of a tank and see if it stops. Petitions do nothing.

[Enragé]

ofcourse they dont do anything, but neither do demonstrations if you think about it

Its a show of force

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 04:35 PM
ofcourse they dont do anything, but neither do demonstrations if you think about it

Its a show of force
:lol:

A petition is not a show of force, it's a show of reformism. A demonstration, especially a violent one is a show of what people really think.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by nate+Apr 10 2006, 08:48 PM--> (nate @ Apr 10 2006, 08:48 PM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 04:35 PM
ofcourse they dont do anything, but neither do demonstrations if you think about it

Its a show of force
:lol:

A petition is not a show of force, it's a show of reformism. A demonstration, especially a violent one is a show of what people really think. [/b]
depends on the circumstances

a petition with a lot of signatures is a step in the right direction
people will see that petitions dont solve shit
people will demonstrate, vote leftist-ish parties
then they'll see that too doesnt stop/solve a damn thing
then they'll demonstrate more, riot a bit
then they realise their power, riot even more

and then we are getting somewhere

Although a petition isnt that great, its a step in the right direction. Remember, just because we realise revolution is necessary doesnt mean everyone does; its a process from simply wanting something better than this crap/preventing worse to full blown revolutionary ideas...a process which cannot only be done through theory.

Violent protests when the people as a whole dont see that its justified has the same effect as the RAF assasinating people; alienation of the avant-garde from the people/

[violencia.Proletariat]

petition with a lot of signatures is a step in the right direction
people will see that petitions dont solve shit
people will demonstrate, vote leftist-ish parties
then they'll see that too doesnt stop/solve a damn thing
then they'll demonstrate more, riot a bit
then they realise their power, riot even more

and then we are getting somewhere

So your solution to beat reformism is to promote it? :lol: What a stupid idea! The last 100 years of reformism is enough, we don't have to go through all that to tell people it's shit and doesnt work.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 09:24 PM

petition with a lot of signatures is a step in the right direction
people will see that petitions dont solve shit
people will demonstrate, vote leftist-ish parties
then they'll see that too doesnt stop/solve a damn thing
then they'll demonstrate more, riot a bit
then they realise their power, riot even more

and then we are getting somewhere

So your solution to beat reformism is to promote it? :lol: What a stupid idea! The last 100 years of reformism is enough, we don't have to go through all that to tell people it's shit and doesnt work.
no ofcourse not

my solution is to continuously show people why reformism is flawed, while continuing struggles which might seem reformist.

We support labour union strikes too, even when they dont call for a revolution (which they like...*almost* never do)

edit:

we, as in those who already realise that revolution is necessary, have to be the consciousness, the collective memory of the people as a whole. If done succesful, reformism would've died years ago...because reformism has failed multiple, succesive times and was able to do so because people forgot how they were screwed over the last time

[violencia.Proletariat]

my solution is to continuously show people why reformism is flawed, while continuing struggles which might seem reformist.

Signing petitions and voting for parties does not "seem" reformist, IT FUCKING IS!


We support labour union strikes too, even when they dont call for a revolution (which they like...*almost* never do)

Depends, I don't see the point in supporting a one day general strike, it's rather pointless.


...because reformism has failed multiple, succesive times[b] and were able to do so [b]because people forgot how they were screwed over the last time

No one forgot shit. There's this little thing called written history you know. Promoting reformism to get revolutionary attitudes from people is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[Janus]

Iran dismisses reports of US military action plans


Originally posted by AP
Iran shrugged off reports that the United States is drawing backup plans for military action, saying Monday they were an attempt to scare it into halting its nuclear program and warning any attack would bring a "suitable response."

A top European Union official, meanwhile, rejected any use of force against Iran in the confrontation over its nuclear program.

But Javier Solana, the EU foreign policy chief, recommended the 25-nation bloc consider sanctions against Tehran — raising the possibility of international punishment even if the U.S. and Europe cannot persuade the United Nations to impose such measures.

The statements came as the chief of the U.N. nuclear watchdog agency, Mohammed ElBaradei, was due to visit Iran at mid-week for talks on the standoff. Officials with his International Atomic Energy Agency have said he is hoping to win at least partial concessions from Iran. IAEA inspectors are currently in Iran visiting two key facilities.

Several American media reports over the weekend said the Bush administration was studying options for military strikes against Iran to stop its nuclear program. The New Yorker magazine raised the possibility of using atomic bombs against Iran's underground nuclear sites.

President Bush said Monday the reports were "wild speculation." He said his vow to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons "doesn't mean force necessarily. In this case it means diplomacy."

But the White House was not ruling out a military response and said "normal defense and intelligence planning" was under way.

Tehran insists its nuclear program aims to develop energy, denying U.S. and Western accusations that it intends to build weapons. Iran has rejected a U.N. Security Council demand that it end uranium enrichment, a key process that can develop either fuel for a reactor or the material needed for a warhead.

In a speech on Monday, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad promised to announce "good nuclear news" in the next five days.

He did not elaborate, but he could be hinting that Iranian scientists have achieved progress in testing the centrifuges used in uranium enrichment, a complex process that Iran has been researching but so far has not said it has perfected.

Iran repeatedly has said it does not believe the U.S. will attempt military action even as it vows the threat of U.N. sanctions will not force it to give up enrichment completely. But with tensions rising, it held military maneuvers in the Gulf last week, displaying a series of what it called high-tech missiles and torpedoes it said could fend off any American attack.

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi dismissed the reports of U.S. military planning as "as psychological warfare, resulting from the Americans' anger and despair."

Ali Larijani, the secretary of Iran's supreme National Security Council, also played down the reports.

"If the U.S. commits such a mistake, it would receive a suitable response," Larijani was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA.

Ahmadinejad said Iran would not be dissuaded from its nuclear goals.

"Our enemies know that they can't cause a minute's pause in our nation's motion forward," Ahmadinejad told thousands of people gathered in Mashad, capital of Razavi Khorasan province in northeastern Iran. "Unfortunately today some bullying powers are unable to give up their bullying nature.

"There are some weak people who intend to frighten our nation, he said in the speech, parts of which were aired on state television. "I do advise people not to be afraid when some international power frowns."

The U.N. Security Council gave Tehran until April 28 to give up enrichment before the International Atomic Energy Agency reports back to the council on its progress. The United States and Europe are pressing for the U.N. to impose sanctions on Iran, but Russia and China have opposed such a step.

China's U.N. Ambassador Wang Guangya, addressing the new reports, said "we believe the military or the tough measures will not yield good results. It's not helpful."

Solana ruled out the use of force, saying "any military action is definitely out of the question for us."

But the EU should consider imposing its own sanctions if Iran does not bend — including visa bans on some political leaders, nuclear officials and scientists as well as formally suspending negotiations on a free trade pact — Solana said in a report presented to EU foreign ministers.

"Iran has to respond to the Security Council. We have to be prepared in case they fail," said Solana.

Iran has called for negotiations, hinting that it could compromise on large-scale enrichment of uranium. Its scientists resumed small-scale enrichment research in February, prompting the IAEA to report it to the U.N. Security Council.

Five inspectors from the IAEA visited Iran's Uranium Conversion Facility in Isfahan on Sunday, which reprocesses raw uranium into hexafluoride gas, the feedstock for enrichment.

The team was next due to visit the Natanz uranium enrichment plant. The five inspectors are in Iran until Tuesday or Wednesday.

[Enragé]

Signing petitions and voting for parties does not "seem" reformist, IT FUCKING IS!

Not if they support the growing of class consciousness.



Depends, I don't see the point in supporting a one day general strike, it's rather pointless.

Class consciousness

They strike for a day, their demands are met--> they realise they are powerful
they strike for a day, demands refused--> maybe strike more or seriously fuck shit up?


No one forgot shit. There's this little thing called written history you know

There's a little thing like lacking interest because people think it doesnt concern them and being to busy working all day.

Sure
if you look things up, carefully, and siphon out the propaganda..sure you can come to realise things. Point is, most people neither got the time nor the interest to do this. They hear in school, on tv etc that the way we do things today is the best way, that the US has always hated Saddam (We are at war with Eurasia, therefore we always have been at war with Eurasia) etc.


Promoting reformism to get revolutionary attitudes from people is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Im not promoting reformism

im promoting the spread of class consciousness.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Not if they support the growing of class consciousness.

This has nothing to do with the deffinition of reformism.


They strike for a day, their demands are met--> they realise they are powerful

Except for the fact that it usually doesn't work like that.


There's a little thing like lacking interest because people think it doesnt concern them and being to busy working all day.

And signing a fucking petition will mean nothing to them. Directly taking part in class struggle to liberate themselves does.


Im not promoting reformism

Look at your first post in the thread, YOU ARE PROMOTING REFORMISM.

[Enragé]

This has nothing to do with the deffinition of reformism.

my whole point

it has nothing to do with reformism


Except for the fact that it usually doesn't work like that

True

which is where we come in.
To agitate, to spread class consciousness, to instill the ideas we have, to take that reformist empty action of a one-day strike and transform it into proof that revolutionary is necessary/possible.


And signing a fucking petition will mean nothing to them. Directly taking part in class struggle to liberate themselves does.

Its a stepping stone, a beginning. Most people dont wake up one day, look in the mirror and say, "hey you know what, im gonna overthrow capitalism!"
Its a process which has to begin somewhere


Look at your first post in the thread, YOU ARE PROMOTING REFORMISM.

No

Im not saying
"we dont need revolution, we dont need direct action...SIGN A PETITION AND ALL WILL BE ALRIGHT!! :D "

im saying

sign it, try to make your voice heard, its better than nothing. And y'know what, go to a demo while you're at it

I actually got this girl to promise she'd go with me to a demo if there was gonna be one after she saw the site. I doubt she's even reformist, a-political as hell is what she is.
at least its a start


Screaming "Revolution! Death to the bourgeois! DIE DIE DIE YOU FUCKING CAPITALISTS" while demolishing a mcdonalds accomplishes nothing if people dont understand what you are saying, why you are saying it, and why you dont just vote for a different party than the ruling one in the upcoming elections and stay at home.
Still, its a start

[violencia.Proletariat]

my whole point

it has nothing to do with reformism

Giving things your own deffinitions to make your arguement better doesn't work. You said voting for parties and signing petitions is not reformism because it talks about class struggle. The deffinition of reformism is not "whether it talks about class struggle"

Reformism,


is the belief that gradual changes in a society can ultimately change its fundamental structures


to spread class consciousness

Class consciousness does not spread by voting rich people to office.


Most people dont wake up one day, look in the mirror and say, "hey you know what, im gonna overthrow capitalism!"

Most people do wake up and say, "ahhh fuck I have to go to work", or "if I have to see that asshole boss one more time..." You wan't to contain this anger into voting for "leftist-ish parties". I'm sorry but voting for the democrats is NOT CLASS CONSCIOUS IN THE LEAST BIT.


sign it, try to make your voice heard, its better than nothing.

Like all reformists say :lol: Why would promote something that has been shown NOT TO WORK? Only a reformist would do this.


Screaming "Revolution! Death to the bourgeois! DIE DIE DIE YOU FUCKING CAPITALISTS" while demolishing a mcdonalds accomplishes nothing if people dont understand what you are saying, why you are saying it, and why you dont just vote for a different party than the ruling one in the upcoming elections and stay at home.

You obviously don't understand revolutionary struggle if you think voting and signing petitions really helps. If it did we should have gone communist 50 years ago.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I have no problem with petitions in circumstances which will make workers feel more confident... like a petition in the US which asks for full and equal rights for all undocumented workers whould have a propaganda effect of showing that their is another option besides the ones presented in the mainstream (i.e. A: kick out all immigrents or B: create a new bracero program and jim-crow for immigrents).

The problem, it seems, with this petition is that it is an appeal to the moral judgement of our rulers - this is what liberal groups tried with Iraq... stop the war before it starts... which plays into the liberal "pragmatism" of having to support the war once it has begun. This approach in the lead-up to the Iraq war led to massive feelings of helplessness and demoralization once the war started (despite Vietnam-level protests beforehand) and the liberals lined up behind bush to wave little american flags.

[Enragé]

Reformism,


QUOTE
is the belief that gradual changes in a society can ultimately change its fundamental structures

Err yea

and i dont adhere to such beliefs.


Class consciousness does not spread by voting rich people to office.

No and im not saying thats the way to go.

Most people do wake up and say, "ahhh fuck I have to go to work", or "if I have to see that asshole boss one more time..." You wan't to contain this anger into voting for "leftist-ish parties".

No, i dont.


I'm sorry but voting for the democrats is NOT CLASS CONSCIOUS IN THE LEAST BIT.

Im not saying people should

in my own country i am encouraging people to vote for the Socialist Party, which has the chance to become a true workers party.
A chance to be a unifying force, a chance to exert influence against neoliberal policies while, most importantly, remaining a grassroots organisation with a revolutionary ideology.

I do not however tell people that voting is all you should do. Voting accomplishes nothing, but it can still be a show of force.



Like all reformists say Why would promote something that has been shown NOT TO WORK? Only a reformist would do this.

Because its a stepping stone to political awareness, which is a stepping stone towards class consciousness.


You obviously don't understand revolutionary struggle if you think voting and signing petitions really helps.

I dont believe that.
Point is, most people do. So we cannot scream REVOLUTION and hope to accomplish anything untill people realise that revolution is the only way.
Most people dont want to risk everything they have (and face it, thats what revolution is about; risking the little you have the gain everything) if they think change can also be gotten through less risky means. For them to realise this is flawed they must witness it with their own eyes, or come to that conclusion in some other way. Aided by those who already realise this.



If it did we should have gone communist 50 years ago.

exactly


stop the war before it starts... which plays into the liberal "pragmatism" of having to support the war once it has begun

I didnt mean it in such a way

and im sure neither did the iranians who started this petition