CPE WITHDRAWN!

[violencia.Proletariat]

DIRECT ACTION GETS SATISFACTION! :D


French President Jacques Chirac has announced that the new youth employment law that sparked weeks of sometimes violent protests will be scrapped.
He said it would be replaced by other measures to tackle youth unemployment.

Millions of students and union members have taken to the streets over the last month in protest against the law, which made it easier to fire young workers.

Unions and students hailed the news as "a great victory¿ with one student leader saying the law was now "dead".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4895164.stm

[barista.marxista]

The French workers win a major battle, and show what kind of force we have! http://www.libcom.org/forums/images/smiles/StarRBmini.gif

[Ian]

And what now? Straight back to work?

[Black Dagger]

Good and bad really, as Ian points out, the scrapping of the law will probably kill the popular uprising, but in the end that was the goal of the protests in the first place. A victory from a communist perspective would be transferring this anger over youth labour laws, into confrontation with the state more generally, under an anti-capitalist banner - unrealistic i know. Well at least, the law was scrapped, and the unions/'communist parties' didnt sell everyone out again

[RedAnarchist]

I'm glad that there is a strong enough force within French youth to stop reactionary laws, but could someone give an estimate as to how many of those students are communists/leftists?

[Eleutherios]

If only we had that kind of labor power here...

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 12:16 PM
If only we had that kind of labor power here...
If only we had it everywhere

[Dreckt]

Like I said: this is only one law. Now people will go back to life as usual, until the next stupid law, and the one after that...

[barista.marxista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 07:03 AM
I'm glad that there is a strong enough force within French youth to stop reactionary laws, but could someone give an estimate as to how many of those students are communists/leftists?
If you only congradulate revolutionary leftists, you're going to be in a sorry state, my friend. Yes, the movement is going to quell -- but the knowledge that they have that kind of power is an amazing step forward for the French working-class. When the ruling class tries new ways to assert their control, the French workers will be conscious of their ability to resist. The general assemblies were an amazing step forward in the self-valorization of workers in Europe. It's infuriating that sources like the BBC and the NYT ignored the whole ordeal (besides some of the violence), but the next time the workers confront the rulers, bourgeois media might not be able to supress the story...

[TC]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 10 2006, 12:03 PM
Good and bad really, as Ian points out, the scrapping of the law will probably kill the popular uprising, but in the end that was the goal of the protests in the first place. A victory from a communist perspective would be transferring this anger over youth labour laws, into confrontation with the state more generally, under an anti-capitalist banner - unrealistic i know. Well at least, the law was scrapped, and the unions/'communist parties' didnt sell everyone out again
Thats an extremely immature attitude to take. A victory from a communist perspective is any victory for organized labor and its interests over capital. These students organized (hierarchically and in a centrally coordinated manner which is how things get done) because they wanted to prevent the government from specifically harming their lives and job security, and they therefore collectively protected their own personal interests. They were interested in protecting themselves as a class not in some abstract anglo-american anarchist goal. That is class struggle in the Marxist sense.

[redstar2000]

I think Marx said it: one real step forward for the movement is worth 100 "correct programmes".

The French workers and students have demonstrated the real power that rests in their hands...something that won't be forgotten.

In a period of over-all reaction like ours, their victory is very significant!

Perhaps not least for what they have taught German and Italian workers and students, who are under the same threats.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by barista.marxista+Apr 10 2006, 01:28 PM--> (barista.marxista @ Apr 10 2006, 01:28 PM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 07:03 AM
I'm glad that there is a strong enough force within French youth to stop reactionary laws, but could someone give an estimate as to how many of those students are communists/leftists?
Yes, the movement is going to quell -- but the knowledge that they have that kind of power is an amazing step forward for the French working-class. [/b]
As much as I supported the resistance to this law and the protests in general the French have always had that knowledge of their 'power' - as a comrade who was in France told me, the French people believe that they live in a democracy, that if they take to the streets they can beat any law. This is not just mytholigizing any 'French spirit of resistance' - this is true and has been witnessed quite a few times in recent history.

A real step forward would be establishing some fighting unions, representing the true workers.

Still, happy to hear the law was beaten :)

[bolshevik butcher]

This is a great victory for the workres in France and as rs2k said correctly( :o ) they will learn from this that they have the power to overturn things in their favour. In this period I think we will see more of these struggles and socialsits have to be prepaired to take the lead in militant class actions.

[Black Dagger]

Thats an extremely immature attitude to take. A victory from a communist perspective is any victory for organized labor and its interests over capital. These students organized (hierarchically and in a centrally coordinated manner which is how things get done) because they wanted to prevent the government from specifically harming their lives and job security, and they therefore collectively protected their own personal interests. They were interested in protecting themselves as a class not in some abstract anglo-american anarchist goal. That is class struggle in the Marxist sense.

Oh get off your high-horse! :rolleyes:

Of course i appreciate what this means in terms of organising effective resistance to state policy, i'm merely lamenting the fact this will likely spell the end of the current period of unrest in the country - that is not a good thing, even if it is good that the CPE has been scrapped (duh). Stop being so bloody pompous!


They were interested in protecting themselves as a class not in some abstract anglo-american anarchist goal.

What is an 'anglo-american anarchist goal'? But of course this has nothing to do with anarchism, yet for some reason im unsuprised that somehow you made the link! I'm being harsh though, i guess i should know by now that you can't resist petty sectarianism, it's practically your only contribution to the board at this point. So feel free to chastise me for being 'immature', i'll be sure to have that word in mind next time you make some sweeping generalisation about anarchism, or some poorly worded response invoking the phrase 'rad fem anarchist boy'.

[piet11111]

TragicClown & redstar2000 hit the nail on its head this is indeed a significant step in flexing the muscle of the working class.
and it definitly wont be forgotten for a long time either.

i just hope that others will follow this example on standing their ground.
instead i see every union folding for the demands of the capitalists in the netherlands.
the proles are on their own here as the unions are "negotiating" over some half assed "social plan" for the workers when they are on the street.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 10:18 AM


Perhaps not least for what they have taught German and Italian workers and students, who are under the same threats.


Don't forget Spain, they are organizing some bigger movements agains their new labor law, CNT has already been demonstrating.

For Black Dagger, this is a good thing! The people see that they can "take it to the streets" and win! They did not go through reformist channels, they organized with workers and won. This might not get us 50,000 new comrades, but it will get us over a million people who see that direct action REALLY WORKS.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 06:03 AM
I'm glad that there is a strong enough force within French youth to stop reactionary laws, but could someone give an estimate as to how many of those students are communists/leftists?
Who cares? Just because someone calls themselves a communist, a leftist, an anarchist, whatever, that doesn't automatically make 'em better than the person next to 'em in the demo. It's actions that matter.

***

This is a gain; the level of mass mobilization could not have been sustained indefinitely in any case. Certainly strikes in France are always brief - no strike funds.

This way, it ends with increased self-confidence, a feeling of victory through solidarity. Rage Against the Machine is right that this is not the first time recently. But every time helps - and if it had ended differently, that woulda broken or reduced workers' confidence.

The bourgeois press are discussing whether the movement's permanently killed moves towards "labor market flexibility" - which the French employers desperately need to shore up their profitability. The bosses will try for it again - they have to - but it'll be even harder for 'em next time.

Of course this is exactly what Redstar & disciples usually dismiss as "reformism"; so it's unclear why this case is an exception. The mass actions were not "violent" or "illegal", Redstar's usual stated conditions for supporting something.

[Jormungand]

Ahh, the people really do have power. They just need to be reminded, or jolted enough to realize they need to use it.

[drain.you]

If nothing else, its put me at peace caus i going to paris this wednsday-saturday and didnt want to be in a city of strikes and protests.

[bolshevik butcher]

The students are out tommorow! Theyre demanding that the government resigns. Tis struggle is far from over and the students are getting exceedingly radicalised!

[Janus]

I think this is quite a significant victory. It has shown people around the world what can be accomplished if they put they take action. Perhaps, it will help influence future protests in other nations as well.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 05:10 PM
If nothing else, its put me at peace caus i going to paris this wednsday-saturday and didnt want to be in a city of strikes and protests.
Why? Do you not wish to take part in the class struggle?

[bolshevik butcher]

Looks like it might well be on anyway.

[Janus]

Why? Do you not wish to take part in the class struggle?
I think drain.you stated that he didn't want to get arrested. That would be somewhat of a hassle for a foreigner unless he was somehow able to escape and make it to an embassy.

But have no fear. With the command of these words, you will be able to fit in with the Parisian crowds.

Bonjour, Ca va?, vive la revolution, and j'aime beaucoup les croissants.

[piet11111]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 10 2006, 10:06 PM
Looks like it might well be on anyway.
what do you mean with "it" ?

[drain.you]

nate, whats your problem with me? almost everything i have posted tonight you have criticised.
protesting over a piece of crap legislation is hardly class struggle. protesting wouldnt be able to win class struggle.

heres how protesting in class struggle goes....

oh plesse mr.capitalist, give us equality and give up your wealth
*protest protest*
no, punk, get back to work!
*worker goes back to work*

heres how protesting over a crap law goes...

oh mr.president this legislation isn't fair
*protest protest*
hey kid, you're right
*legislation withdrawn*

heres how a foreigner protests on holiday
[i]*protest protest*
*arrested*
hey, you're not from here
*not allowed back in the country ever again due to disturbing the peace and encouraging people to rebel against the government*

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by piet11111+Apr 10 2006, 10:23 PM--> (piet11111 @ Apr 10 2006, 10:23 PM)
Clenched [email protected] 10 2006, 10:06 PM
Looks like it might well be on anyway.
what do you mean with "it" ? [/b]
Protests and the class struggle. Of course this is part of the class struggle and its important to the french labour movment, but let the man have his holiday in peace.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 04:28 PM
protesting over a piece of crap legislation is hardly class struggle. protesting wouldnt be able to win class struggle.
An apt student of Redstar, who has learned the true, unstated lesson: don't do anything.

These are not illegal protests; your chances of being arrested would be relatively low.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 06:28 PM





heres how protesting in class struggle goes....

oh plesse mr.capitalist, give us equality and give up your wealth
*protest protest*
no, punk, get back to work!
*worker goes back to work*

Guess what dumbass, they didn't go back to work or school. AND THEY SUCCEEDED.


heres how protesting over a crap law goes...

oh mr.president this legislation isn't fair
*protest protest*
hey kid, you're right
*legislation withdrawn*

If thats your analysis of this situation I really hope you quit your little excursion into leftism as soon as possible.


heres how a foreigner protests on holiday
[i]*protest protest*
*arrested*
hey, you're not from here
*not allowed back in the country ever again due to disturbing the peace and encouraging people to rebel against the government*

Yes because you would get arressted no ifs ands or buts for being in a largely peaceful protest.

Here's more of the situation

College kid-Wow I have studied so hard I deserve a fucking break

*arrives in France*
College kid-why are all these people ruining my vacation that I deserve (entirely subjective) They need to quit interrupting people who pay capital for services.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Severian
Of course this is exactly what Redstar & disciples usually dismiss as "reformism"; so it's unclear why this case is an exception. The mass actions were not "violent" or "illegal", Redstar's usual stated conditions for supporting something.

It was outside the channels of "bourgeois right".

No doubt French Leninists (mostly Trotskyist) are busy telling people over there that the "solution" is to elect them to the next French parliament...or some such reformist crap.

French students and workers moved into the streets and even fought the police when necessary...and won a significant victory.

That's why I support and applaud their struggle.

Not to mention the noticeable absence of "Vanguard Party Leadership". :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Guerrilla22]

More power to the French people for taking such a stand. It just goes to show that if we come out in mass, the ruling class will have no choice but to adhere to our demands.

[piet11111]

first of all new attempts to screw over the working class are already on thier way so dont get your hopes up.

and dispite its reformist nature i applaud the poeple to take it to the streets and act in our interests.
this massive protest is good exercise but the victory itself does not have much chance to last.
i hope that the poeple will realise that the only way to accomplish something is by taking it to the streets and fighting for it.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 09:28 AM
It was outside the channels of "bourgeois right".
On the contrary. The demonstrators and strikers excercised their bourgeois-democratic rights to demonstrate and strike. The cops even defended their excercise of those rights from violent attacks by suburban youth.


French students and workers moved into the streets and even fought the police when necessary...and won a significant victory.

That's why I support and applaud their struggle.

But again, that's exactly what you usually brand as "reformism." Not just electoral action, but any mass action which is not "violent" or "illegal".

Which again, these were not; those who fought the police were mostly those attacking the demonstrators!

And when some law is changed - you usually seem to regard that as especially reformist.

Here's your usual stance:


(Luís Henrique)
You are advocating renouncing class struggle, under the idea that class struggle is reformist.
Some is, some ain't.

The class struggle that takes place outside the channels of bourgeois legality is at least potentially revolutionary.

The "class struggle" that takes place inside those norms is almost always reformist and frequently not even "struggle" at all...just ritual.

Like a bourgeois "election".

The recent events in France were, in fact, inside "the channels of bourgeois legality."

I might point out that this type of massive, brief strike and "manifs", followed by the withdrawal of some of the government's antilabor laws, is in fact a periodic ritual in France. It's even been described with exactly that word in the bourgeois press...

I think that you don't know what you think, if you think at all.

But we do see here an example of the attractive power of mass movements. Like a magnet, they pull towards them all kinds of people who had previously been indifferent or even opposed.

[Janus]

The CPE may be withdrawn but protests continue albeit on a much smaller scale. Either way, the original protests were quite successful and resulted in a victory for the students. The French Parliament will shortly consider a replacement for the Contrat Premiere Embauche. C'est chouette.

French students keep up protests (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4897898.stm)

[hoopla]

Democracy works!

[piet11111]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 10:47 PM
Democracy works!
:o you cant be serious

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Severian
But we do see here an example of the attractive power of mass movements. Like a magnet, they pull towards them all kinds of people who had previously been indifferent or even opposed.

Yes, I am indeed pleasantly surprised that you didn't denounce the French actions as "ultra-left" and "futile" in the absence of proper "Leninist leadership".

Glad to have you "on-board". :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[anomaly]

Originally posted by hoopla
Democracy works!
Well, yea...if by 'democracy' you mean taking to the streets and protesting.

Without the protesting, 'democracy' wouldn't have worked. The French gov't was quite ready to sign the bill into law. The mass demonstrations made the pigs think otherwise. :D

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Apr 11 2006, 06:22 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Apr 11 2006, 06:22 PM)
Severian
But we do see here an example of the attractive power of mass movements. Like a magnet, they pull towards them all kinds of people who had previously been indifferent or even opposed.

Yes, I am indeed pleasantly surprised that you didn't denounce the French actions as "ultra-left" and "futile" in the absence of proper "Leninist leadership".[/b]Once it is understood that the Leninist theory of organisation tries to answer the problems of the current potential for revolution and of the revolutionary subject, this theory then leads directly to the question of historical pedagogy, i.e., the problem of transforming potential class consciousness into actual class consciousness, and trade-unionist consciousness into political, revolutionary consciousness.
[...]
Yet although the masses learn only through action, all actions do not necessarily lead to a mass acquisition of revolutionary class consciousness. Actions around immediately realisable economic and political goals that can be completely achieved within the framework of the capitalist social order do not produce revolutionary class consciousness. — The Leninist Theory of Organisation, Chp. 10 by Ernest Mandel
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/271.gif

[encephalon]

Oh come now, can the sectarian bullshit stop for one second to discuss the actual consequences of a successful mass movement in a fully industrialized country in this century?

This wasn't a revolution. But it is significant in the sense that they stood solid as a class the whole time. This is something that industrialized nations haven't really had much of in a good while, and could be a sign of a new form of revolutionary potential--especially since similar movements seem to have spawned simultaneously.

The goals were reformist, in a sense (or every sense). The methods employed, however, cannot be said to be reformist in nature. The typical reformist response would be to "elect new masters." Instead, they used brute force by numbers, and rather successfully at that.

Protests and strikes are thought of as "bourgeoisie rights" because workers fought for them, and not by election. From the capitalist perspective, this was absolutely necessary to ward off full-fledged revolution in many states; and in most cases, this succeeded. But the fact that the bourgeoisie has made concessions does not make strikes and protests inherently bourgeoisie any more than saying I'm (supposedly) allowed to have sex with any consenting adult that I want is inherently bourgeoisie.

The fact remains that this was a solid mass movement outside of the system which the bourgeoisie advocates, and this is precisely the kind of activity we need.

[piet11111]

The fact remains that this was a solid mass movement outside of the system which the bourgeoisie advocates, and this is precisely the kind of activity we need.

im not entirely convinced we need succesfull strikes because we need those strikes to be crushed by the police before revolution makes sense.
i know it sounds anti-proletarian to say that but successes that are allowed by capitalist laws only preserve the illusion of capitalism as a system that works.

the last thing we need is a new round of concessions by the capitalists if anything we need things to get worse so that our communist revolution becomes the only alternative to unemployment and poverty.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Ernest Mandel+--> (Ernest Mandel)Actions around immediately realisable economic and political goals that can be completely achieved within the framework of the capitalist social order do not produce revolutionary class consciousness.[/b]

And if Ernie says it's true, then it "must be true", right? :lol:

We actually do not know in advance whether some hypothetical economic or political goal can be "completely achieved within the framework" of a particular "capitalist social order" at a particular historic moment.

So Ernie is just blowing smoke out of his ass...laying down an a-historical "law" that's useless in practice.


encephalon
Oh come now, can the sectarian bullshit stop for one second...?

Possible but unlikely. The Leninists have a lot to lose when the masses rise up without their leadership. Another "Paris Commune" would be a catastrophe for them...especially if it started to spread across western Europe.

Their "historic role" is on the line...so you'd better believe they are watching events with considerable anxiety. :D

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Janus]

France's parliament has passes a new bill to replace the CPE. This compromise plan includes state support for employers such as subsidies when they take young employees. However, this bill has yet to be approved by the Senate.

French MPs back revised jobs law (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4902352.stm)

[piet11111]

The new bill establishes the principle of state aid to employers taking on young people in difficulties on a contract for an indeterminate period.

so what has effectively changed ?
besides the employers now getting paid to exploit others ?

[Severian]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Apr 11 2006, 06:22 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Apr 11 2006, 06:22 PM)
Severian
But we do see here an example of the attractive power of mass movements. Like a magnet, they pull towards them all kinds of people who had previously been indifferent or even opposed.

Yes, I am indeed pleasantly surprised that you didn't denounce the French actions as "ultra-left" and "futile" in the absence of proper "Leninist leadership". [/b]
BS. I've never opposed anything because it lacked "Leninist leadership." Only through participation in mass actions like these can a revolutionary working-class party be built.

You, on the other hand, have said anything that's not illegal is reformist; I've just given a quote to that effect.

You're trying to distract attention from your real inconsistency by inventing an imaginary one for me. And God knows what your Mandel quote has to do with anything.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 03:26 AM
Oh come now, can the sectarian bullshit stop for one second to discuss the actual consequences of a successful mass movement in a fully industrialized country in this century?

This wasn't a revolution. But it is significant in the sense that they stood solid as a class the whole time. This is something that industrialized nations haven't really had much of in a good while, and could be a sign of a new form of revolutionary potential--especially since similar movements seem to have spawned simultaneously.
Actually, there have been similar waves of strikes and "manifs" in France previously. Which have also forced the government to back off from anti-working class laws it was attempting to impose.

Huge strikes and protests against the "Juppe plan" to slash social security occurred in late '95 and most of '96. (http://www.themilitant.com/1996/6039/6039_1.html)

There were also major strikes by hospital workers in 2000 which pushed back an attempt to slash health care. As well as strikes by truckers the same year.

What's new this time, I guess, is the large-scale student participation.

All of these actions were successful defensive resistance; they create a major problem for the French bosses. Who are at an international competitive disadvantage because they haven't rolled back workers' gains to the same extent as the U.S. or even the U.K. As long as French workers remain able and willing to put up this kind of resistance, French capitalism will be stuck in a deepening structural crisis. A crisis that can only be solved by revolution, on the one hand; or by fascism and war, on the other.

The bourgeois paper France-Soir summed it up pretty well:
" Make no mistake: what started as an imitation of May '68 looks like being a thousand times more revolutionary. In fact, the current crisis is an exact reversal. In '68, everything was possible in a France where there was full employment, but nothing was permitted. Today, everything is permitted for those with money, a good job, but nothing is possible for the vast majority of our fellow citizens."

The suburban revolt earlier this year was new; and the French ruling class attempted response to that is new. The subsidies for hiring "especially disadvantaged" youth - including those from depressed areas - sound almost like a sort of affirmative action. In a half-assed, backdoor, probably ineffective way, since the French ruling class retains this ridiculous "color-blind" official stance which excludes affirmative action; and there hasn't been any mass movement to force them to act differently.

The mass mobilizations currently happening in the U.S. are new; something like 2 million total in the various local actions of immigrant workers April 9-10. With a growing element of political strike; workers have been taking off work - or in places, walking out - to attend the rallies. Some have been fired for it - and there have been successful fights to get their jobs back in places.

The upcoming May 1 actions have an even more explicit element of political strike; a massive action on May Day in the U.S. is also new (or a revivial of something long dormant.)