Fuck Zionism

[Rastafari]

I have always hated the Isreali state, but after reading more Chomsky, I have decided that he is entirely correct: Isreal is shaping up to be a Apartheid South Africa.
I say to the US people (not that the state cares): Drop the Isreali state, stop giving aid to it, and bring it under trial 38 times worse than what is happening to Iraq!

[Pete]

Fuck Zionism, Fuck Militarism, Fuck Nationalism, Fuck Americanism, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon...

Propaghandi.

I agree.

[LeftoverAnimal]

Surely its not religion thats the problem its people? Religion are ideas, as communism and socialism are ideas, it is he people and the leaders that twist and hate, we need to accept religion for the ideas, agreeing with them or disagreeing, it is not religion thats the problem its fucking twat ass people!!!!

[Pete]

It is the dogma that is imposed through some religions. The power structure that is inherent in Christianity. One motto of Protestantism is "Work hard, get rich." Which is also a motto for capitalism.

Religions should be based on free choice. Most of the time people are raised in one religion and therefore see it as superior, so they only operate under that religion, leading to the 30 years wars, the Jesuits in Huronia which led to the destruction of that nation, the Inquistions, Euro-centricism, the witch hunts, the holocaust, among other things. Religion may have some good things but it is wieghed down by the genocide it has committed and the dogma's it imposes.

[Edelweiss]

You speak of Rastafari, but how can you justify a god which leaves you behind?
An amalganation of Jewish scripture and christian thought what will that get you, not a fuck of a lot!

(...)

Fuck Zionism, Fuck Militarism, Fuck Nationalism, Fuck Americanism, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon, Fuck Religon...

- Propaghandi

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

The problem came from the Allies. The Jewish people then did nothing wrong. Now, a minority of them cause trouble but if the allies hadn't done such a stupid thing, it would'nt have mattered.

I'm not that educated on the topic though, so I can't really say much more.

[Show me the Money]

Quote: from LeftoverAnimal on 3:51 pm on April 3, 2003
Surely its not religion thats the problem its people? Religion are ideas, as communism and socialism are ideas, it is he people and the leaders that twist and hate, we need to accept religion for the ideas, agreeing with them or disagreeing, it is not religion thats the problem its fucking twat ass people!!!!
hear, hear!

[Dhul Fiqar]

Since Rastafarians believe in Zion it's kind of ironic you should raise the issue, but I agree, fuck Israel :)

--- G.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

I agree that Israel at present is the greatest problem in the Middle-East. However, it is a problem that the Palestinians and other arab nations helped to create. I don't think this justifies Israel, but it goes a long way to explaining Israel's actions. They have historically been surrounded by hostile states bent on their destruction - this would have a huge impact on any nation. I think Isreal is wrong, and at present is far more in the wrong than the Palestinians; however, it is not a simple matter of Palestine good, Israel bad.

[Umoja]

It's a matter of Arafat old (and sorta bad), and Sharon bad. Tommorow some Israeli foreign exchange kids are coming to my history class.... Hehe... Considering me and another are anti-zionist, this could be interesting.... I'll post about it tommorow.

[Tasha]

Extremists we can all agree are the problem here. Israel has stolen palestinian land which has provoked them. We all know the solution if israel gets the fuck out of palestines land there would be no conflict as there is today.

[Rastafari]

I hate propagandhi and I hate the fact that Isreal can cry "Oppression" and seek American help because we are afraid that God will get us if we don't, because "that's what the Bible says." They need to wake the fuck up and realize they have broked over 30 UN Resolutions and that is not what the holy misquoted book says.

[RedRevolutionary87]

i think you missed the whole propagandhi point

btw i dont mean to single you out but is it just me or are the newer members getting less and less educated about what they speak of, i remember before we got many new members that were very smart..now the number of smart ones is tiny

[Umoja]

I'm curious to find where in the Bible it actually says to defend Israel. I've heard it many times today.

[Rastafari]

I don't think I missed the Propagandhi point, I just dislike them as a group. I'm sorry you think I (as well as the rest of the new people)am stupid as well, I'm sure people probably had the same to say when you began frequenting this site.

(Edited by Rastafari at 8:42 pm on April 4, 2003)

[Dhul Fiqar]

Well, he does say "I am the God of Israel" and that "Israel is the promised land" and "the Israelis are my chosen people" and it also seems that anyone that attacks them in the Old Testament gets smitten pretty badly by horrible things from above (plagues of Egypt, etc.).

Whether or not it literally says "protect Isreal", I'd still say the message of "don't fuck with these guys unless you want a Godly boot up your ass" is pretty clear ;)

--- G.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from Rastafari on 12:58 pm on April 3, 2003
I have always hated the Isreali state, but after reading more Chomsky, I have decided that he is entirely correct: Isreal is shaping up to be a Apartheid South Africa.
I say to the US people (not that the state cares): Drop the Isreali state, stop giving aid to it, and bring it under trial 38 times worse than what is happening to Iraq!


Isn't Rastafarinism connected with Zionism?

Take par example Iron Lion Zion of Bob Marley.

They even use the David Star.

And Rastafarinism is a religion, so how can u be anti-religion?

[Irish Republican]

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 10:11 am on April 5, 2003
Well, he does say "I am the God of Israel" and that "Israel is the promised land" and "the Israelis are my chosen people" and it also seems that anyone that attacks them in the Old Testament gets smitten pretty badly by horrible things from above (plagues of Egypt, etc.).

Whether or not it literally says "protect Isreal", I'd still say the message of "don't fuck with these guys unless you want a Godly boot up your ass" is pretty clear ;)

--- G.



What the Israelis are doing in Palestine is completely unGodly and if they are the chosen people then God help us all.

[El Barbudo]

I think you don't understand the real thing about religion... Here's a little definiton about why shit happens in various religions:

TAOISM: Shit happens.

CONFUCIANISM: Confucious says, "Shit happens."

BUDDHISM: If shit happens, it isn't really shit.

HINDUISM: This shit has happened before.

Rastafarinism: Let's smoke this shit.

Funny Huh?
PROTESTANTISM: If shit happens, it happens to someone else.

CATHOLICISM: If shit happens, you deserved it.

JUDAISM: Why does shit always happen to me?

ISLAM: If shit happens, take hostages.

EXISTENTIALISM: Shit doesn't happen; shit is.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES: Knock Knock Knock ''Shit happens''.

[Rastafari]

You know something, I have actually caught enough slack on my name I think. I will expalin, then.
Rastafarians are based not only on the Old Testament but also on the teachings of a Jamaican named Marcus Garvey, who told blacks in the 1930's to look to Africa for a universal black king. This man, according to the Rastafarians, is Ras Tafari Mekonnen, Emporer Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia, who ruled from the late 20's until the late 70's. While in power, Selassie not only ended several old world laws in Ethiopia ending slavery and alleviating the hunger situation (helping it, not solving it), but also stood up to resist the fascism of Mussolini long before the Western world even acknowledged it. He was overthrown by a semi-communist regime that actually more closely follows a form of Stalinism, sacrificing people in an attempt to bolster industry.
Oh yeah, and weed is good, too!:cool:

Now, as for the Isreali state, the BIble has at least 2 instances in which the Jewish people and their allies are punished for the misuse of their force, which they are clearly doing right now.

[Irish Republican]

Quote: from Rastafari on 7:30 pm on April 5, 2003

Now, as for the Isreali state, the BIble has at least 2 instances in which the Jewish people and their allies are punished for the misuse of their force, which they are clearly doing right now.

What are they?

[Rastafari]

Sadly, Comrade, I do not know the exact locations, despite the fact I have read the Bible a few times.
I beleive one occurs when Elijah warns the Jews, terror ensues. The other that I know of happens in the misuse of the Ark of the Covenant.

[Eastside Revolt]

Quote: from El Barbudo on 5:09 pm on April 5, 2003
I think you don't understand the real thing about religion... Here's a little definiton about why shit happens in various religions:

TAOISM: Shit happens.

CONFUCIANISM: Confucious says, "Shit happens."

BUDDHISM: If shit happens, it isn't really shit.

HINDUISM: This shit has happened before.

Rastafarinism: Let's smoke this shit.

Funny Huh?
PROTESTANTISM: If shit happens, it happens to someone else.

CATHOLICISM: If shit happens, you deserved it.

JUDAISM: Why does shit always happen to me?

ISLAM: If shit happens, take hostages.

EXISTENTIALISM: Shit doesn't happen; shit is.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES: Knock Knock Knock ''Shit happens''.



Paeganism: Shit will happen if I melt wax over this shit.

[Fever]

It is kinda Ironic that you bring this up with the name Rastafari, but, i would just like to point out that the situation in israel (as some of you have said) is pretty much the Allies fault. After the the holacaust and the extermination of more than 6 million jews the remaining jews of europe set out to find a place to live. Many of the allied countries completely rejected the immigration of the jews of europe, and as a solution the Jews sought out to creat a jewish palestine.

[Dhul Fiqar]

I'd like to point something out, the Rastafarians are VERY anti-Israel, but for unusual reasons.

They, considering themselves descendants of Ethiopian Jews (i.e. the lost tribe of Israel) believe the Israeli state today is illegitimate because it has in the past been reluctant to recognize the status of Ethiopian black Jews, as they have somewhat different customs from regular Jews. They were isolated from the European Jews for a loooong time, and some things were washed around on both sides.


In any case, they are now more or less recognized, and there are many Ethiopian immigrants in Israel today. However there is still a vestige of racism, and they tend to make low income and often have little choice but to serve on the frontlines in the military with the Russian immigrants.


Apart from that, the main beef the Rastas had with Israel was apartheid. Israel was a staunch supporter of Apartheid in South Africa and the white government in Zimbabwe, two countries that the Rastas were especially peeved about still being occupied in the seventies.
They broke the UN ban on weapons sales with Apartheid South Africa, weapons that were used to put down uprisings in black townships.

So basically, Rastafarians are no friend of the state of Israel as they suspect them of being inherently racist with their own apartheid policies and support for oppression of blacks and arabs in the past.

--- G.


(Edited by Dhul Fiqar at 4:27 pm on April 6, 2003)

[canikickit]

I've encountered some Rastas who are pro-the current Israeli state. Basically because they are uneducated and think that the "Holy Land" needs protecting. Modern day rastas can be very akin to fundamentalist Christians.

Rastafarianism has nothing to do with Zionism. They merely use some similar imagery - i.e. the Star of David. That's is solely because Rastafarianism is based on a re-interpretation of the Old Testament.

I don't find it ironic in the slightest that someone with the name Rastafari would be against the Zionistic form of aparteid.

Of course the problems in Israel today go back to British imperialism, just like Northen ireland and Kashmir / India (who are going to destroy civilisation in a nuclear war in the next fifty years).

[suffianr]

Theodor Herzl, the pioneer of political Zionism, on the subject of Palestine:

"We should there form a portion of the rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism" (A Jewish State, London, 1896, p.29).

[redstar2000]

I think matters are a little more complicated than can be disposed of with "fuck this" or "fuck that".

As suffianr points out in his quote from Herzl, the 19th century Zionists shared the European-supremacist assumptions of their anti-semitic enemies... that "primitive peoples" in other lands could "legitimately" be shoved aside in the name of "civilization".

It should be recalled why there was Zionism in the first place. The "Dreyfus Affair" convinced Herzl and the other early Zionists that "there was no future in Europe for the Jews"...a remarkably prescient observation considering what was going to happen five or six decades later.

In short, it was European anti-semitism that provoked Zionism.

When the old Ottoman Empire was sliced up among the victors of World War I, it was England that decided that the Zionist project would be useful for England's imperial interests in the Middle East.

The nominal goal of English policy was that of "a national home for the Jews"...but Zionism itself, born in the heyday of European 19th century nationalism, had the goal of a "Jewish State" from the beginning.

The Arabs in Palestine and elsewhere simply didn't know what hit them...it came as a "bolt from the blue" that a European people would bodily move in and take a portion of land that had been Arab for the last seven centuries if not longer.

There was Arab resistance on a small scale from the early 1920s...and on a large scale (and ever since) from the late 1930s. I do not see any end in sight.

But I'm not sure it even makes any sense to talk about Zionism any more; what is in place there now is a small capitalist, imperialist country with substantial territorial ambitions...and a military/police establishment with growing quasi-fascist tendencies. It has formed a strong alliance with U.S. imperialism and there is essentially no organized military obstacle to its goals. And, of course, it has nuclear weapons.

Right now, it appears that the main goal of the Sharon regime is "ethnic cleansing" of the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip...the random use of military terror and the daily use of humiliation to make the Palestinians "want" to leave. What fresh adventures are still in the planning stages remain to be seen...both Lebanon and Syria are obvious targets.

In this context, both Judaism and Zionism are really kind of irrelevant, still useful as "ideological justifications" but hardly of concern to those who see their future as an imperial power on the world stage.

Sharon and his supporters have delusions of grandeur...and we all know where that leads.

:cool:

[Sinistra]

still not nowing shit .
still blinded by hate .
still seing the black in the white .

herzle had a vision of a democratic jewidh state , were arabs and jews will live together . peacfuly .

Israel should exist , and i will explain it simply . every ethnic nation should have a state , especialy the jews who have been prosocuded in their 2000 thousand years if exile .
The arabs have 16 states , the jews : hardly one .

the sharon goverment isn't intrested in an ethnic cleansing , the last people who will deside to make an ethnic cleansing are the jews .

the Israely state isn't an apartheid state . i live in israel , i am not a jew , i know black , arab , russian , marocan , iraqies ... and they are all equal .

the arab "resistance" in the years of the british mandate , was simple terorism . killing women and children , burning houses and shops , atacking suply truks isnt resistance , it is hate , racism, relegion , exploided by Haj Ameen Al-Houseiny .

[Blasphemy]

you are right, attacking innocent people isn't resistence. the massacre perpetrated in Kfar Kasam by the Etzel wasn't resistence, but pure hatred. enough arabs were killed by jews in the 40s, and enough jews were killed by arabs as well.

it's very nice how all the jews in israel are equal. you are lucky you are not a muslim in israel, because then you would have been really screwed over. if you were a muslim, don't even try to get a building permit anywhere, but you'll simply won't get one. if you were a muslim, don't try to get a job anywhere, except within the muslim community. if you were a muslim in israel, it would have been very dangerous for you to demonstrate, because the israeli police finds it very easy to shoot at muslim demonstrators, like when 13 people were murdered by the police in october 2000.

also read the article i've published in Theory - A Short Essay About Zionism.

[Sinistra]

I want you to remember that those who have killed the citezins in Kafar kasem were judged and puneshed .
Also because of The Kafar Kasem insident , a new term was intredouced in the IDF . "Pekuda belty hookyt bealil" .

maybe the muslims are dicreminated by the israely govermet , but it is only because when they want to demonstrate they have to cary pictures of nasralla , arafat , flags of hizbolah ...
don't forget that the israely arabs are in the best life rate between al arabs . somthing like 80% percent of them want to stay israely citizens , disregarding there so called suport to the palestenian strugle.

[Blasphemy]

the term of an illegal order - an order with a black flag over it - in the IDF is pointless. in practice, a soldier doesn't have the ability to refuse. if he deems an order to be illegal, he can refuse, but then he has to prove that it was illegal in a military court. if the court does'nt accept his claim, he gets screwed. refusing an order is very very risky for a soldier, and that is why most of them just won't do it.

oh, my god! they carried a picture of arafat. those bastards. good thing they were shoot. because in israel, the only democracy in the middle east, carrying pictures while demonstrating is illegal, and the only punishment is death on the spot. very reasonable of you.

[Tasha]

Well hey the english peoples have many countries. Is it ok to move the jews into one and terrorize the former populants? Well hey its only one country right? they need to share.

This is not logical reasoning. The fact is palestine has been illegally occupied by military force. The inhabitants have been murdered. Any resistance to israel has been created by israel itself. To say you deserve someone else's property is not very just.

[Sinistra]

the only land that was ocupied is the jewish state .
dont forget that the arabs came from arabia , and invaded palestine . simply colonualistic , if the want an arab state , they can build as many arab states as they want , IN ARABIA .

[Sinistra]

Blasphemy , there is a difrence between . pikoda bilty hookit . and pikoda bilty hookit bealil .
pikoda bilty hooki is an order that is ilegal , but you must follow it until it is proven as ilegal , like cleaning your comaders mother's house .
pikoda bilty hookit bealil . is an ilegal order wich is ilegal for you to follow .
thats why the simple soldiers who caried on the orders in Kfar Kasem were more suvirly punishen than there comaders , who ordered the killing .

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from Sinistra on 4:32 pm on April 11, 2003
the only land that was ocupied is the jewish state .
dont forget that the arabs came from arabia , and invaded palestine . simply colonualistic , if the want an arab state , they can build as many arab states as they want , IN ARABIA .


in reckon you are a big supporter of the israeli fascist party, otherwise known as Moledet.

[themanwill]

I know this may be a stupid question but what is the difference between a Jew and a Zionist?

[Reuben]

themanwill,

Jews are an ethnic or religious group. If someone says they are a jew this refers to their background or their belief in Judaism.

The term zionis rfers to a political opinion that thatthere should be a jewish state in the middle east. You do not have to be a jew to be a zionist and similarly not all jews are zionists.

[Blasphemy]

a little correction, Reuben. at first, zionism did not speak at all about the middle east, but just of a jewish homeland, not a state, anywhere in the world. Herzl was the first one to talk about the middle east, in the late 19th century, but zionism existed before him.

[Sinistra]

blasphemy , zionism in it's name speaks of the midle east . ZION=jerusalem .

just because i am a patriot it doesnt say that i suport moledet , and second , moledet arent fascist.

[Blasphemy]

you said that the arabs can establish as many states as they want, but not in israel. perhpas i should quote you: " they can build as many arab states as they want , IN ARABIA." well, if you do not know, that is the prime concept Moledet believes in. "the land of israel, to the sons of israel", is their belief. it seems as if you believe that yourself.

you claim that they are not fascist. let's see what other people here think. does anybody believe that the concpet that all palestinians should be transfered from their homes to Jordan and other arab nations without their consent is fascist?

[redstar2000]

From what I know about ethnic "cleansing", it is generally (though not always) characteristic of at least semi-fascist regimes.

This is all the more likely if the "cleansing" is planned....which appears to be the case in Israel today.

From the Zionist point-of-view, the Arab birth-rate is a demographic and political time-bomb. It is entirely possible that the Arabs will be a majority of the population of Israel before the middle of this century. What then of a "Jewish State"?

In many respects, Israel is already an "apartheid" state...but the ultimate futility of such an approach is well known.

So Zionists/Israeli ultra-nationalists face a thorny dilemma: accept the fact that by democratic norms, the "Jewish State" will become part of the Arab world by the end of this century at the latest; or "remove" most of the Arabs/Muslims that presently live in Israel to other countries, "peacefully" or violently as needed.

As to whether or not a particular political party is "fascist", the word really has two meanings. One is in the realm of ideas...the doctrines of fascism are pretty well-known. The other, and perhaps more important meaning, is in the realm of practice...the actual implementation of fascist policies.

Thus, the Republican Party in the United States does not re-print the works of Mussolini or Hitler; but its practices in many respects are least semi-fascist and clearly moving further in that ominous direction.

:cool:

[Pete]

I said something of a dumbed down version of Red's last post, since he thinks at a much higher level than I do and this was thinking on my feet, and I am now labeled Anti-Semite in some peoples mind I believe.

[Blasphemy]

i always deemed the jewish state to be a temporary solution. the jewish majority cannot be preserved for long. there are actually two ways of prolonging the jewish majority, but not perptualizing it. the first one is, as you mentioned, transfering the arabs out of israel. a fascist solution, which we all must object to.

the second one is the best one, and it will preserve the jewish majority for longer as an inevitable result. it involved investing large sums of money in rehabilitating the arab people in israel. allowing them to build cities, opening more job options for them, and generaly integrating them into the general population. this will lower birthrate among the arabs, but that shouldn't be the point of it. this is generally the thing that should be done, regardless of the demographic issues in israel. it will, inevitably, by lowering birthrate, preserve the jewish majority, but not necessarily for long.

i hope i have made myself clear.

[MarxIsGod]

Apartheid in South Africa is totally ignorant analogy. In South Africa, the Black population was there and the Whites slowly took over the government BY FORCE and suppressed the Black majority. In Israel, Great Britain and the U.N. agreed to partition Palestine between the Jews and the Arabs and the Arabs essentially said we want all or nothing. Israel was created because the Jews were being repressed and mistreated worldwide and were being denied access to the United States. Such examples of the mistreatment include (obviously) the Holocaust, the Dreyfus affair, and the pograms in the USSR.

Although the existence of Israel poses problems in the Middle East, the simple unwillingness of Arafat and the Palestinian Authority to make peace has dragged out this conflict. They continue to publicly support peace while privately supporting terrorism against Israel. As far as military action, Israel has simply tried to keep its people safe; nothing more. The suicide bombings have always attempted to target civilians while Israeli retaliation has always attempted to avoid civilian casualties. If Israel was destroyed, Jews would have no safe haven of their own and probably be denied access to ancient holy sites such as the Western Wall, Tomb of the Patriarchs, and Masada.

The idea of Israel is similar to that of a Kurdish state. Throughout the Middle East and Caucus region, Kurds are persecuted as an ethnic minority. No government in this region wants to have them and so they need their own country to be safe. With Israel, it is simply a religious group instead of an ethnic group.

Lastly, Israel has already established itself in the Middle East and it is not like it is a country that is in the process of being created and can simply be aborted. The Arabs have control over the rest of the entire region and if the Gaza Territory was turned into a Palestinian state, it would not be problematic if we could be sure that the Palestinians would not continue the suicide bombing attacks.

Through the Oslo Accords, the Camp David Accords, and other attempts at peace, Israel has always been willing to concede land or even risk its own demise to bring peace to the region and it has consistently been the Arabs who refuse to keep the peace.

[redstar2000]

Blasphemy's is actually the first constructive idea I've heard on this question.

Imagine a program to radically secularize Israel, with special emphasis on Israeli Arabs. Give the women of Israel, especially Muslim women, control over their own fertility. Give them "super affirmative action" in educational and occupational opportunities. Put some serious money into the project.

It could work. That is, it could preserve the existence of a secular state with a nominally Jewish majority...perhaps indefinitely.

The political and religious obstacles to such a sensible course of action are formidable, to say the least.

MarxIsGod (who has selected for himself the most curious username I've ever seen) makes one valid point. When people confined to displaced persons camps in Europe after World War II were asked what country they wanted to go to, the vast majority wanted to emmigrate to the U.S.A., including Jewish refugees. In a typical act of short-sighted arrogance and callous stupidity, the Truman administration refused to admit more than a handful.

It is certainly understandable that European Jews selected Palestine as their second choice...they hardly had any reason for confidence in any European country. I was shocked to read not long ago that there was actually a pogrom against Jews in Poland under Soviet occupation. How ironic to survive the horrors of the Nazi years only to fall victim to Polish anti-semites!

But the horrors of the past are always used to justify the horrors of the present...and I have to admit that, on occasion, I can see the point.

Still, the holocaust was not perpetuated by Palestinians, let us remember.

The United Nations Resolution to partition Palestine was rejected by the Arabs for the same reason that the French would reject a UN resolution to partition France. It cannot be pretended that the UN has the mystical "right" to slice places up without asking them first...where was the referendum in Palestine (which was 2/3rds Arab at the time) on partition?

The Israeli Army, like the American Army, always claims that civilian casualties are "accidental"...but even if that were true, it doesn't raise anyone from the dead. Both armies freely employ weapons of mass destruction in populated areas rather than risk their own soldiers in combat with their enemies...and the results are entirely predictable.

The "apartheid" analogy seems entirely appropriate. Whatever nominal rights Arabs may enjoy as citizens of Israel, in fact, we know who lives in the slums, who gets the shitty low-paying jobs...if they can get any job, and who is the subject of daily humiliation and random police terror.

There is little point in pretending that reality does not exist in this regard.

MarxIsGod has already laid claim to the Gaza Strip...on the grounds of "security". As you know, America has already added two entire countries to its empire on the same specious grounds. There's really no limit to this argument, is there?

Well, actually, there's one: the new empire always over-reaches itself, sooner or later, and suffers catastrophe as a consequence.

Something to think about.

:cool:

[Blasphemy]

The reason for the high fertility rate among Arab-Israeli women is that arab villages in israel are third-world enclaves in a highly developed country.

I would not compare the practical Apartheid in Israel to South Africa, for the situation is completely different. But nonetheless, apartheid, unfortunately, does exist. Just look at the arab city Nazareth, and then look at Tel Aviv. Or look at east Jerusalem in comparison to west Jerusalem. The Jewish cities, in comparison to the Arab ones, are paradise.

Apartheid exists also in the occupied territories. Look at Gaza in comparison the Kfar Darom, which is a Jewish settelement in the Gaza Strip. The former is a devestated city, skyrocketing unemployment, almost no basic infrastructure and barriers which regulate traffic in and out of the city. The latter is a prospering town, with wide paved roads, large houses, buses running on a regular basis, etc. Israel, while destroying the Palestinian cities, invests huge sums of money in building new and expanding old settlements. The planning of these settlements is so meticulous, that later on, it will be impossible to evacuate them. Right now, it is impossible to evacuate the large settlements in the territories. Just try to evacuate 10,000 people who live in large houses in a settlement. Impossible.

[Pete]

My definition of Zionism is abstract, can someone provide me with a concrete one?

[Blasphemy]

If you believe that Judaism is a nationality, and thus believe that the Jewish people deserve a homeland of their own, you are a Zionist.

[Dhul Fiqar]

There should be no Jewish state, no Aryan state, no Arab state, no Han Chinese state, etc.

The idea of basing an entire state on a single ethnic group is racist in theory and fascistic in practice, there is no getting away from it.

--- G.

[MarxIsGod]

I agree that a people that is not in danger do not need their own country such as Aryans or Lutherans. But people like Kurds or Jews who have been persecuted for centuries need a place where they will not be foreigners and will be able to be safe.

[Pete]

That is basically what I thought, and of course I am against it.

[MarxIsGod]

While I think it is a mistake to dismantle a country like Israel, we should learn from our mistakes and realize that if a religion or ethnic group feels the need to have their own country because they need to be protected, then there is a bigger problem of governments not being tolerant of different religions and ethnic groups which we must not ignore by giving every single religion and ethnic group their own country.

[Tasha]

Sinsitra why dont you read your posts and realize that are if you dont ask yourself questions how can you expect to reach any reasonable conclusion?

Palestenians were in that land first, jews were in that land first. One could say either of the above. The fact is it does not matter who occupied this land thousands of years ago. Is it justified to move indians into the usa right now and claim they were there first and that god gave them the land? While terroizing the former inhabitants. This kind of thinking suggests you are either uneducated or biased. PLease rethink your reasoning.

also look at the people and tell me who belongs in that area.

(Edited by Tasha at 10:18 pm on April 19, 2003)

[MarxIsGod]

Modern international law and policy looks at countries, not territories. If the Jews were the first to form a modern government and create a country in what was once Palestine, then they can rightfully claim ownership. What is going on with the intifada is not an internal revolution, but one in which people in an outside territory (who, although occupied by Israel, govern themselves) are trying to topple a country that has established itself in that region. They do this by sneaking in and killing innocent civilians. ALL Israeli retaliation by the Israeli army has been against military targets or suspected terrorist headquarters. This I think shows that Israelis are more civilized and understanding than the bloodthirsty Palestinians

[Tasha]

marxisgod your opinion seems biased simply because you are using generalizations such as "bloodthirsty palestinians" if you can give me some facts that shows the israelis have killed less innocent lives then palestenians then I would be happy to lean towards your side of the argument. However since the facts seem to tilt towards israel murdering more innocent civilians and destroying a substantially more significant amount of property it is hard to see your point of view without being somewhat biased.


(Edited by Tasha at 4:49 am on April 22, 2003)

[Tasha]

Oh i would also like to add that I dont believe full palestinian state would be a good idea at the current time as you said israel is an established country. However you cannot do what israel has done to the palestinians and not expect any resistance. Which leaves me to believe that israel's actions have created this resistance. You also mentioned the jews being persecuted earlier on, have the palestinians not been persecuted and because jewish ancestors have been persecuted does this put their descendants on a higher level than that of other peoples, that they deserve their own country while others do not? I simply cannot see where this is coming from.

[Blasphemy]

Tasha, it really does not matter who killed more innocent people. It's hardly the point. If suddenly the Palestinian terrorist organizations get the upper hand, and manage to butcher 5000 people, a thing which almost happened when a bomb was planted in a gas farm near Tel Aviv, would it make Israel right? Would it justify the acts of terror committed against the Palestinians? No. Around 2000 Palestinians and 700 Israelis have been killed since October 2000. But the numbers have no meaning. When human beings, innocent human beings, have to die just because some corrupted filthy leaders like Sharon and Arafat want to eternelize their memory or something of that sort, it is our job to oppose them, and not count the death toll so we can see who's right and who's wrong.

[BRIN]

''Filthy and corrupted''Arafat is whats holding palistine together.Don't blame him for the suicide bombers last i heard he was trying to stop them btw the Jews are are the ones invading so the palastinions have every right to bite back. Anyone with a religion that says a certain race is ''chosen'' deserves a real hard kick up the arse and because every one of those bastards in isreal belives it ,it doesnt saden me to see on the news their blood staining the side walk it only sadens me to know that as a result more inocent palistinions will die.
Theyre capitalistic and materialistic views are also wrong and frankly they should of learnt from Hitler and his ''suppirior race'' veiws for they are doing the same thing

[Blasphemy]

Every monotheistic religion looks at itself as superior to all others. Judaism, Christianity and Islam claim that they are the chosen people, and the rest are inferior. But that is hardly the point.

Arafat is not holding anyone together. He's barely holding himself together. According to the latest poll published by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (http://www2.alternativenews.org/display.php?id=2921), only 35% of the Palestinian people support Arafat. He's popularity is diminishing with time because he gave he's people no hope. All he gave them was fighting spirit, that ultimately achieved nothing besides a high death toll. He stole money from his people by building huge mansions to his ministers, and sending his ministers' sons to expensive schools in the US and Britian. He is a terrorist, a thief and a liar, and that is why only 35% of his own people support him.

No one has the right to commit acts of terrorism. Even people who have been abused, had acts of terrorism committed against them, suffer from oppression and deprivation of basic human rights, don't have the right to take the lives of other men. The suicide bombing achieved nothing. Sharon, which has no intentions of ever starting a real peace process, has become the "strongest Zionist leader since Herzl", as new Prime Minister Abu-Mazen called him. A peaceful intifada would have had the support of the majority of the Israeli pubic, and Sharon would have been long gone from the PM's office in Jerusalem.

Open you eyes, BRIN. The world is not black and white. Things are not as simple as right and wrong. Reality is complex, and you have to try to grasp it, not oversimplify it.

[BRIN]

Thanks Blasphemy the news on Arafat was a eye opener
but my stance on judaism is still the same for to be a jew you must have a jewish mother so it is a race issue and i don't take kindly to racist i don't hate all jews but most of them the practicing ones,i don't like nazis so why should i like jews they are both simmilar religions


As for your comments on terrorism diffine it better for the new laws in my country(australia) terrorism is wearing a mask at a protest or being ethnic as you said nothing is black and white ,would killing a man to save thousands be unjust if it terrorism i think it would be right what about you? as you said again reality is complex but don't dissmiss a thing if you don't know the suituation the possibillity and the outcome

[Blasphemy]

The question of "who is a Jew?" has no one answer. Yes, some claim that every person who has a Jewish mother is a Jew. But debates over this issue have been going on forever. The Orthodox will claim that only through family realtion can a person be a Jew, but seculars will disagree, saying that every person who claims to be a Jew should be looked upon as one. It is a complicated answer that was the source of many political debates.

Anything achieved through violence is doomed to fail, that is my stance on terrorism. Israel was founded through force, and it has become an aggressive state. A Palestinian state established through violence, through force, will ultimately become violent.

[Tasha]

Blasphemy you misinterpreted my point. I was stating that it is not the jews that are being persecuted by the palestinians as you can see by the death toll. Also I strongly believe the palestinian cause to be the just one as it is their land and looking at what has been done to them they certainly do deserve what was theirs. I do not agree with the extremists, but as I have said israelis have made it impossible for the palistinians to fight on their level therefore they resort to these crimes.

[Blasphemy]

Such excuses, in my eyes, are unacceptable, Tasha. Violence cannot be taken as a last resort. Suicide bombing, military action, all of these corrupted the Israeli and the Palestinian society. Look at Israel now, and look at the Palestinians now. In my opinion, these societies are digustingly sick. That is the works of violence taken up by both sides.

The cause in the Palestinian struggle is just, but it does not justify the aggressive means they have taken. I support their cause in any way I can, and I oppose the path they have chosen in any way I can.

[Tasha]

There are no excuses for violence (I am not promoting it in any way I am simply stating as to why this violence is here, as there is no way we can stop it but to see what has caused it), the point I am getting to is that would this violence be here today had this conflict not arisen to this point? What has caused all of these deaths and crimes? What is the source of this problem? Obviously you will find the answer to be had the israelis not founded a country on palestinians land there would be no conflict in this scale as there is today therefore there would be no violence from this conflict. This is the cause and the effect is the palestinian extremists.

(Edited by Tasha at 9:44 pm on April 23, 2003)

[scott thesocialist]

there is no religion only life in itself you can't blame a war on religion its the people in the war we should blame israel usa uk these are the people who are destroying the land of the free we should rise up an support our brothers and sisters all over the world from palestine to panama life is the only religion that we should folllow

[Blasphemy]

Right now, it doesn't matter at all who started the conflict. You can blame the Germans for the Holocaust, which gave a huge boost to the efforts of the Zionist movement. You can blame Woodrow Wilson for imposing on Germany a humiliating peace treaty after WWI, which ultimately lead to the rise of the Nazis to power.

We have to deal with the present and the future, not the past. As much as it may matter to us individually, it generally doesn't have any effect. We have to seek the most moral and pragmatic solution we can. Any use of force, as you probably agree, will sabotage any peace process.

[Reuben]

Blas i generally agree, however the past must be dealt with because the palestinians are still suffering from the consequences of the past. The fact that palestinian refugees along with their childrent and grandchildren are not allowed back to the homes from which they fled in 48, suggests that the historical wrong, the ethnic cleansing which took place, ha not been put right.